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Author Topic: The sleeping arrangement inside the tent  (Read 10389 times)

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February 10, 2023, 12:51:59 PM
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eurocentric


How did 9 hikers, potentially a maximum capacity for 10, fit into that 12x6 floorspace? However they did so it must've been very cosy.

The Russian TV series Pereval Dyatlova showed the hikers getting ready for bed and they were laid out in 3 groups of 3 along the tent length. I wasn't sure if that was possible and whether it would require them to be 4ft midgets or they'd need to sleep on someone's lower legs and feet. But with 3 across the 6ft wide tent there may have room to slot in.

The book 1079 The Overwhelming Force Of Dyatlov Pass includes a graphic which suggests all hikers slept with their widest parts, their shoulders, to the same side of the tent, and all were flat on their backs bar Zina who was laid on her side. Even the 6-footers were laid flat across a 6ft wide tent, which would push their heads and feet into the canvas, and some hikers extended their effective height by sleeping with their arms above their heads, which would also tend to bare their hiker armpits to the person next to them. I wasn't sure about this either, even more so when the graphic includes a pile of firewood a person-wide in the middle of the hikers.

No data exists online for the Soviet Union, but across the world biacromial diameters, the measurement from the centre line of the shoulder joint to the opposite side (not including muscle and skin beyond these edges) has increased since the 1950s due to higher calcium and protein intake. The Soviet Union's diet vastly improved from the 1970s onwards through major farming advancement but prior to this they may have had less developed skeletons.

I'm a '60s kid, and am 20 inches across the shoulders, skin-to-skin, possibly more than average. Place 9 of me in a tent, including one of my side, heads & shoulders all to one side, and even when packed in like sardines the tent would need to be 14.58ft long, and that is without any firewood.

1960s Americans were said to be 15.6 inches for men (bone to bone) and 13.9 for women. Allowing for muscle mass and the outside edge of the humerus, let's add an inch either side. So 7 men x 17.6 plus 1 woman @ 15.9 and one on her side, call it 13 = 152.1 inches / 12 = 12.68ft. It would very be tight, this is shoulder-to-shoulder, and in fact their elbows are slightly wider and would jab into each other, and definitely no room for any firewood, or a tenth person in this arrangement.

https://www.healthline.com/health/average-shoulder-width#1960s-u.s.-measurements

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/series/sr_11/sr11_035acc.pdf    (the index page is wrong and biacromial measurements are on page 30)
 
Of course Soviets may have been narrower, although working against the averages this was a bunch of athletes. One thing is for sure they would have been tightly packed in with hardly an inch to spare, yet the book uses a graphic which depicts a tent 4 times as long as it is wide, equating to 24ft, which shows them with plenty of room between them.

So how would the hikers sleep in this tent, would they top & tail (which risks smelly feet either side and the potential for being kicked in the mush during sleep), or would rather more of them sleep on their sides, which I tend to think people will do for a variety of reasons (such as when on an uncomfortable floor, in a colder environment, and because most people automatically roll from side-to-side in sleep to avoid pressure sores and blood clotting), or would they bunch up and get cosy in some other arrangement, not exactly like the rescuers shown below, who I think were larking about after playing cards, but something as inventive in a cramped space.

https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/6S-02F.jpg
My DPI approach - logic, probability and reason.
 
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February 10, 2023, 04:54:27 PM
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GlennM


The fact of the matter is that they did..There was also a divider. When tragedy in the form of a wind driven slab slide collapsed the tent,,we may assume the egress was not orderly as evidenced by the secured front flap and the side cuts.
We don't have to say everything that comes into our head.
 
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February 11, 2023, 02:19:02 AM
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eurocentric


The fact of the matter is it was mathematically impossible for all to lay with heads to one side and a pile of firewood unless rather more than one slept on their side, and that then changes one theory's injuries sustained. And it would only be possible to sleep in the Pereval Dyatlova arrangement if hikers legs slotted in with other hikers legs along the tent length, reducing their effective height.

So the question remains, how exactly did 9 people and their gear sleep inside that 72ft² (8 square yard) floorspace. What was the sleeping arrangement which made this possible, and comfortable.
My DPI approach - logic, probability and reason.
 

February 11, 2023, 03:23:29 AM
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Manti


Good question. There is no answer.

Maybe they didn't all sleep in the tent and each night, two of them were on duty, collecting firewood, continuously replenishing the stove, and otherwise sitting around the campfire outside the tent. Of course, this is not compatible with camping on the slope.

Otherwise, maybe they slept in "couples",  one on top of the other. This halves the floor area required but raises other questions...

Although, they did joke in the "Evening Otorten" about increased birthrate among hikers  dunno1


 
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February 11, 2023, 06:11:27 AM
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GlennM


Asking this in a couple of places so forgive me if you've seen it more than once.  I am compilating rosters of the various hikes about the Ural regions in Jan/Feb/March of 1959.  Thus far, I have

Why do you need these lists? What can they do to solve the main mystery: what happened to Dyatlov's group?
But if you can't do without it - get it!

-Rostov Pedagogical Inst, all 7 members named

The leader of the group is Igor Fomenko, the members of the group: Victor Afanasiev, Victor Soliy, Lydia Rudenko, ... other participants Igor Fomenko did not remember when he recalled this trip, 55 years after it.


-Sogrin's group, do not have any members yet, other than Sogrin (and Zolotaryov who transferred from this group to Dyatlov)
quote author=KFinn link=topic=903.msg15456#msg15456 date=1618090513]
Asking this in a couple of places so forgive me if you've seen it more than once.  I am compilating rosters of the various hikes about the Ural regions in Jan/Feb/March of 1959.  Thus far, I have

Why do you need these lists? What can they do to solve the main mystery: what happened to Dyatlov's group?
But if you can't do without it - get it!

-Rostov Pedagogical Inst, all 7 members named

The leader of the group is Igor Fomenko, the members of the group: Victor Afanasiev, Victor Soliy, Lydia Rudenko, ... other participants Igor Fomenko did not remember when he recalled this trip, 55 years after it.
The group walked from the Perm region (from west to east) through the main ridge of the Ural Mountains and ended the route in Vizhay.
The closest point of their route was at least 45...50 km from the route of Dyatlov's group. They finished the route about 3...4 days before the Dyatlov group was supposed to be there according to the original timeline.

-Karelin group, regional team, all 8 members named

The leader of the group was Vladislav Karelin, and the members were Georgy Atmanaki, Viktor Granin, Evgeny Serditykh, Boris Borisov, Oleg Goryachko, Vladimir Skutin and Vladimir Shavkunov.
Their route started from Vizhay, like the Dyatlov or Blinov groups, but it started more than a week later. They were to meet (they agreed so) near the Oika-Chakur mountain, and then Karelin's group was to go south and finish the route in the town of Pokrovsk-Uralsky. They finished the route then. When the tent was found and Vladislav Karelin himself on February 27 was already on the pass.

-Blinov group, UPI I have 9 named (missing 1, I believe)

Team leader - Yuri Blinov, participants: Ksenia Svechnikova, Valentina Tamilova, Kira Obodova, Vyacheslav Krotov, Evgeny Sinitsyn, Vladimir Strelnikov Stanislav Devyatov, Vsevolod Eroshev, Boris Sychev.
The Blinov's group route began simultaneously with Dyatlov's group from Vizhay, they had to go close to the south-west direction, visit Molebnaya Mountain, Martai Mountain, Denezhkin Stone Mountain, and had to finish the route in the town of Pokrovsk-Uralsky, just like Karelin's group, but one week earlier than Karelin's group. The closest point of their route was at least 50...60 km from the route of Dyatlov's group.

   Dubinina mentions a Zhenya/Zhenka in her diary 1.25, but also then calls him Yurka; is she referring to Blinov himself? 

These are two different contestants. Zhenya or Evgeny it is Sinitsin's last name. "Yurka" was Blinov's own name. There were no other man by named Yury in that group.

Also a mention of Yurkina Olva; does anyone know who she is?

The Dog...  grin1

-Sverdlovsk Pedagogical Inst., 3 members named (Zhora Klein, Mihail Vladimirov, Vyacheslav Serdityh) can anyone point me to any other members of this group?

The leader of this group - Anatoly Shumkov, the participants: Mikhail Vladimirov, Georgy Klein, Margarita Kupriyanova, Faina Abramova, Anatoly Burlakov, Galina Ryazanova, Zoya Shilova, Svetlana Shmetter, Vyacheslav Serditykh.
Vladimirov wrote in his article that Vyacheslav Serditykh went with them and he is often confused with Evgeny Serditykh, who went in Vladislav Karelin's group. It was his brother, so it is necessary take into account this feature in the analysis of all events, so as not confuse finally.
Shumkov's group left the route week later than Dyatlov's group and were not in Vizhay, as they had started the route from Burmantovo. They also could not have been on Chistop Mountain on February 01 because they needed an airplane, not skis. they could not ski in deep snow twice as fast as the much stronger group of Dyatlov.

-Serov group (trek to Mt. Otorten canceled rerouted to Isherim) 3 members named (Lyudmila Vsevolzhskaya who did not go to Isherim, Oleg Viktorovich, Nikolaev Fyodor Ivanovich) does anyone have more info on this group?

This group was not in this area. It was created in the Perm region, and they had not approved the route to Otorten. Unless Lyudmila Vsevolzhskaya herself confused something. They went to the area of the Isherim mountain, which is located in the north of the Perm region, and to spend two or three extra days only one way for a trip to the Sverdlovsk region made no sense. Mount Isherim is higher and no less difficult and interesting than Otorten. So that's perfectly rational explanation for their route. I think that all conversations about this group and their desire to go to the places where Dyatlov's group went, appeared much later, when all this history began to become known.
Ask "Investigator" and he will confirm that there are always twice as many "witnesses" than all the obvious participants of the events, once the event becomes very popular.  lol2

-Sogrin's group, do not have any members yet, other than Sogrin (and Zolotaryov who transferred from this group to Dyatlov)

Group leader - Sergey Sogrin, participants: Evgeny Zinoviev, Victor Malyutin, Boris Martyushov, Igor Kuzminykh, Victor Plyshevsky,
The group went to a more northern area (about 350 km or 280 mi to the north) - the Circumpolar Urals, typical local place: Mount Sabre, Mount Neroyka. They started the route in the city of Pechora, which is on the Leningrad (St. Petersburg now) - Kotlas - Vorkuta railway line.
 They left on the same day as Dyatlov's group, but finished the route week later than Dyatlov's group should have done. At that time the search had already begun.

If anyone can point me
Group leader - Sergey Sogrin, participants: Evgeny Zinoviev, Victor Malyutin, Boris Martyushov, Igor Kuzminykh, Victor Plyshevsky,
The group went to a more northern area (about 350 km or 280 mi to the north) - the Circumpolar Urals, typical local place: Mount Sabre, Mount Neroyka. They started the route in the city of Pechora, which is on the Leningrad (St. Petersburg now) - Kotlas - Vorkuta railway line.
 They left on the same day as Dyatlov's group, but finished the route week later than Dyatlov's group should have done. At that time the search had already begun.

If anyone can point me towards finishing these lists or has info on participants I  am missing, I am eternally thankful!!  And if I am missing any hiking groups that were there, I'm also grateful!!!!

That's good!
I ask you to put your "thanks" in unopened state, under my desk!  clap1
Just kidding.  grin1

Thank you, so very much!!!!!

Grist to the mill. GM
We don't have to say everything that comes into our head.
 

February 11, 2023, 07:52:51 AM
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tenne


https://taina.li/forum/index.php?topic=547.0

Where did tourists sleep with their heads?

if anyone is interested, this was also discussed on the russian forum, I'm not interested in this topic so I didn't read it but others might want to get some more input into it.
 
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February 11, 2023, 02:46:10 PM
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eurocentric


https://taina.li/forum/index.php?topic=547.0

Where did tourists sleep with their heads?

if anyone is interested, this was also discussed on the russian forum, I'm not interested in this topic so I didn't read it but others might want to get some more input into it.


Thank you. I read the Russian thread. Most of them don't seem to realise the hikers would never have got around to sleeping on 1079, only preparation, but they do raise an interesting point and possible solution to this thread, in that they claim the hikers would use their boots as pillows (although the translation calls it headboards).

Although witness statements about the arrangement of contents inside the tent varied, they refer to how most of the boots were down the uphill side of the tent, but also that 2 pairs were found in the middle of the opposite side.

That suggests that the hikers may have incorporated some topping & tailing, and to re-run the maths and allow 8 inches across the narrower ankles when slotted in between 7 wider shoulders I get 11.08ft.

In fact this topping & tailing would help the book's theory about a tree collapse, because it resolves two logic problems; how survivors managed to remove themselves from under a tree and cut into the canvas near their feet, and how the two Yuris, who are depicted sleeping next to each other, came to have burns to opposite ends of their bodies, scalp and lower leg, when a collapsing stove was pinned on top of them.
My DPI approach - logic, probability and reason.
 
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