Official finding

[tenne]

I am looking for the actual wording of the official Russian verdict and I have found unknown compelling force and unknown natural force but I can’t seem to get a consensus on what the official document said.

Are there any Russian translators who can say what the official verdict was unknown compelling or unknown natural?

[Ehtnisba]

I am looking for the actual wording of the official Russian verdict and I have found unknown compelling force and unknown natural force but I can’t seem to get a consensus on what the official document said.

Are there any Russian translators who can say what the official verdict was unknown compelling or unknown natural?

It says форсмажорни обстоятелства. The first word has french routes and it is literaly meaning "force majore" or in English " great force" . The second word is "reasons/means/situations. So the most easy way is " compelling force", the most straight translation will be "due to situation of a great force". Forcemajore is term used mostly in connection with knowing that is a nature but no one have seen is it a tornado, flood, or even grasshopper invasion. It is a useful term that also may include humans, but again humans as an event - running crowd smashing people, big fight between groups, bombs, etc. When your victim is obviously looking " smashed" but you can't point a finger by what. Very comfortable term for this case, couse by it they don't lie about the state of rav4 corpses and admit it could be anything smashable from nature to people happened due to certain "conditions".

[tenne]

Thank you

[tenne]

If I am reading your answer right, the Russian officials were not claiming that it was natural or due to natural forces, it was the unknown compelling force. Did I read your response correctly?

[Ehtnisba]

If I am reading your answer right, the Russian officials were not claiming that it was natural or due to natural forces, it was the unknown compelling force. Did I read your response correctly?

Yes it means just something stronger than 9 people, that could be anything - from natural to technical, humans, spacial (meteor, aliens). So, yes, cleverly put the vaguest conclusion so that if something comes up, nobody can say that the conclusion is a lie. If they have wanted to say it is natural the conclusion would have been "death by natural causes/disaster".

[Ziljoe]

If I am reading your answer right, the Russian officials were not claiming that it was natural or due to natural forces, it was the unknown compelling force. Did I read your response correctly?

Yes it means just something stronger than 9 people, that could be anything - from natural to technical, humans, spacial (meteor, aliens). So, yes, cleverly put the vaguest conclusion so that if something comes up, nobody can say that the conclusion is a lie. If they have wanted to say it is natural the conclusion would have been "death by natural causes/disaster".

It seems they couldn't find what caused them to leave the tent. They couldn't say if it was natural or not, they had no answer as we don't.

With the advance in science and data, we have better understanding of what may have occurred.

[Manti]

If it really says "форсмажорни обстоятелства" in the official document, which I haven't verified myself, I think "compelling force" is misleading.


форсмажорни like Ethnisba says is force-majeure (literally forsmajorin in Russian). I think this is fairly commonly used in English, mostly in legal contexts. For example, if you had a contract with a supplier, and they don't deliver, but it's let's say because of a storm that ripped apart their warehouse, then they declare "force-majeure" and aren't liable.

Maybe it's just what I experienced but it tends to mostly be used in cases of natural disasters.


Here is the page from the case files / decision to close the criminal investigation that contains the phrase:


And what Yandex Translate makes of it...

[Manti]

https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-384-387?rbid=17743
Here Teddy's  (I assume) translation says "overwhelming force". Neither "compelling" nor "natural". Yandex translates as "natural". By the way I don't see "форсмажорни" in the text... Where did that come from?

In the context of the rest of the resolution, which is saying that presence of others was not established, there are no signs of struggle, no valuables are missing, (all disputable, by the way), "natural", "force-majeure" or "overwhelming force" seem to fit better than "compelling force". Basically it is being ruled an accident and not a criminal act.

I think we can conclude that "unknown compelling force" is nothing more than overly creative translation.

[Ziljoe]

When  i search compelling in to Russian I get this.

adjective
неотразимый
irresistible, compelling
непреодолимый
irresistible, insurmountable, compelling, insuperable, overwhelming, overpowering.

It's possible it's just down to interpretation.

Choose your  adjective ?

The report concludes that whatever happened it was, irresistible, insurmountable, compelling, insuperable, overwhelming, overpowering.

It would be easier if they were hiding something and had control of the investigators , searchers and diaries to say it was the Mansi , weather etc. It would be the easiest thing for them to do , to cover whatever it was, up. They didn't, they basically admit that they don't know. Hence the mystery and speculation.

[Ehtnisba]

If it really says "форсмажорни обстоятелства" in the official document, which I haven't verified myself, I think "compelling force" is misleading.


форсмажорни like Ethnisba says is force-majeure (literally forsmajorin in Russian). I think this is fairly commonly used in English, mostly in legal contexts. For example, if you had a contract with a supplier, and they don't deliver, but it's let's say because of a storm that ripped apart their warehouse, then they declare "force-majeure" and aren't liable.

Maybe it's just what I experienced but it tends to mostly be used in cases of natural disasters.


Here is the page from the case files / decision to close the criminal investigation that contains the phrase:


And what Yandex Translate makes of it...

Yes you even explained it better with the delivery and the storm. So "compelling force" is very straight English translator term and indeed misleading in my opinion. It is used mostly legally hence it fits a case document. The case must be here in the website in handwritten originals. Definitely this is what originally its end conclusion says.

[Ehtnisba]

Just to make it clear my translation is Russian to Bulgarian. Стихийна comes as "forcemajore" or just strong force , nothing about natural when I translate into my language. Must check again all the Russian files to find out how it came to force majore in Bulgarian.

[Manti]

Choose your  adjective ?

The report concludes that whatever happened it was, irresistible, insurmountable, compelling, insuperable, overwhelming, overpowering.

The thing is, it doesn't, at least not in my reading of it.

All the report concludes is that there was no external involvement. In that sense the cause is "natural" or "elemental"... but the adjective doesn't matter, it just expresses that it's not "foul play".
And because of no outside involvement, it's not a criminal matter and as this was a criminal investigation, the investigation is terminated.


If I think about it, this makes sense. The prosecutor / police are only tasked with prosecuting crimes. Some classes of accident like aircraft crash have their own investigative body, but in case of a hiking misadventure, there is probably no government body that is responsible to investigate what actually happened.
From this it follows that whether it was avalanche or deer stampede or wolverine etc. etc., is not Ivanov's or the Soviet authorities' task to determine, so they never got to the bottom of it because they had other things to focus on (prosecuting criminals)

[Ziljoe]

Choose your  adjective ?

The report concludes that whatever happened it was, irresistible, insurmountable, compelling, insuperable, overwhelming, overpowering.

The thing is, it doesn't, at least not in my reading of it.

All the report concludes is that there was no external involvement. In that sense the cause is "natural" or "elemental"... but the adjective doesn't matter, it just expresses that it's not "foul play".
And because of no outside involvement, it's not a criminal matter and as this was a criminal investigation, the investigation is terminated.


If I think about it, this makes sense. The prosecutor / police are only tasked with prosecuting crimes. Some classes of accident like aircraft crash have their own investigative body, but in case of a hiking misadventure, there is probably no government body that is responsible to investigate what actually happened.
From this it follows that whether it was avalanche or deer stampede or wolverine etc. etc., is not Ivanov's or the Soviet authorities' task to determine, so they never got to the bottom of it because they had other things to focus on (prosecuting criminals)

I don't disagree,It's just the translation. Compelling comes up along with the others, overwhelming or overpowering force might be better.

It's all the same to me and I don't think they wrote it to be vague, although they seem a bit lazy on the RAV4 injuries.

interesting thought that they may have given up with lack of outside evidence and that makes sense. Perhaps costs and resources came into it also. They may have left it vague to get the west thinking that something more was going on in the area, this has been suggested before and is quite possible.

[tenne]

The other problem I can see with translation is: how did Soviet officials use words? By this I mean a news report from 2023 referencing a phone would have a totally different meaning then a 1959 Report referencing a phone because of technology
Denotation is the dictionary meaning of a word, connotation is the common meaning of it, so do we know what the common meaning of words were in 1959 Soviet union?

[sarapuk]

I am looking for the actual wording of the official Russian verdict and I have found unknown compelling force and unknown natural force but I can’t seem to get a consensus on what the official document said.

Are there any Russian translators who can say what the official verdict was unknown compelling or unknown natural?

Discussed many times because obviously it is an important part of the investigation. Its clear that the authorities have opted for the ''unknown force'' because that is exactly what they concluded with the  evidence that they had. And what can we say today ! ? Exactly the same. The Dyatlov Group met their demise because of an unknown force. Just 2 words suffice.

[Jean Daniel Reuss]

                              Reply #14     
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 And what can we say today ! ? Exactly the same. The Dyatlov Group met their demise because of an unknown force. Just 2 words suffice.

But no, no ! Not exactly the same. There is a progress in knowledge about the DPI.
There is a real progress thanks to :

    1) The huge amount of documentation that Teddy offers us in free access on the Internet.
    2) The various explanatory hypotheses that are expressed in the numerous posts of unequal importance (as of 17 April 2023, General Statistics --> Total Posts: 22142 ).
    3) Indications to easily find other forums dedicated to the DPI. In particular Russian forums, which can now be automatically translated for those who do not know the Russian language. In particular taina.li

 So for myself, as you probably already know, I am now almost convinced that the 9 hikers were murdered by 3 hired killers, paid by Stalinist notables, former NKVD officials, who had genuine and understandable reasons to be opposed to the Khrushchev government.

[tenne]

My opinion is if it was a natural occurrence, then we would be able to understand the sequence of events and what the group did during it.

People die in the outdoors for many reasons and ways but if it’s natural we can understand the sequence of events
It’s only when it is a contrived or therefore an unnatural event that we cannot understand what people did