The Den skeletal injuries caused during air transportation

[Zirak]

Zdravstvuyte

I wanted to propose a new line of enquiry - were the skeletal injuries of Lyudmila Dubinina, Semyon Zolotaryov (both with skeletal damage in the chest) and Nikolay Thibeaux-Brignolle (skeletal damage to the head) caused during the air transportation process of the bodies?

To begin with, it got my attention in that these 3 suffered skeletal damage, but there was lack of skin surface damage and bruising - this seemed unusual to me. If we consider the process of bruising:

"Bruising typically occurs when a person receives an injury to an area of their skin, such as from falling or bumping into something. The blood vessels between the skin and other tissues in the body burst. The blood pools under the surface of the skin, causing a bruise. It is natural for a bruise to change color during the healing process." https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/322742#_noHeaderPrefixedConten

The bodies were in a state of livor mortis after death and were frozen under the snow. The below describes the process of livor mortis, so there would have been no blood flow to support the bruising process if the skeletal damage was done during the air transportation of the bodies.

"Postmortem lividity (livor mortis) is the settling of blood in the lowest part of the body due to gravity. This process immediately starts at the onset of death since the blood is no longer actively pumped through the body. The blood will start pressing on the skin leaving red/purple marks on the body. " https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/livor-mortis

There is no skeletal damage on the rest of the expedition crew like found with these three within the den four (Lyudmila Dubinina, Semyon Zolotaryov, and Nikolay Thibeaux-Brignolle). The den four were found later in in May of 1959, therefore transportation occurred at a separate and much later date.

Evidence supports that the helicopter crew for the transporting the den four were reluctant and protested:

"Ortyukov and some soldiers took all the bodies from the stream, carried them up the bank and placed them on special stretchers to drag them across the snow, then took them up to the pass to the helipad. It was hard work, and they repeated the same process four times. A helicopter met them on the pass, but the pilots refused to take the bodies onboard, complaining this was outside their official duties. It has been said that the pilots knew the bodies were poisoned with radiation and, for this reason, didn’t want them in the aircraft. Ortyukov sent the following radiogram:
This is a scandal! I and fourteen other people brought these bodies on our shoulders and they refused to take the bodies in spite of me insisting. As a Communist I am outraged by the behavior of the crew and ask you to inform the Communist Party leader about it. And I have to mention to you for clarity, these bodies are frozen. At this point Colonel Ortyukov reached the limits of his desperation. He took out his pistol and threatened the crew. Vladimir Askinadzi intervened, after which the medical expert reorganized how the bodies should be packed for transportation, and they were finally airlifted for transportation to Ivdel." https://dyatlovpass.com/the-den

A question arises: Were the helicopter crew also responsible for offloading the bodies in Ivdel?

If yes, is it then possible that due to reluctance of wanting to interact with the bodies that in Ivdel they may have essentially tossed or pushed the bodies off the helicopter to avoid having to touch them, or damaged them in some other way within the process?

When the bodies impacted with the ground, this could have caused the skeletal injuries, but since livor mortis had induced, resulted in the breaking of bones without surface bruising.

However, to support such a theory, this would have to assume that certain parts of the autopsy report were incorrect and that these injuries were mistaken as part of the hikers initial deaths.

[eurocentric]

Zdravstvuyte

I wanted to propose a new line of enquiry - were the skeletal injuries of Lyudmila Dubinina, Semyon Zolotaryov (both with skeletal damage in the chest) and Nikolay Thibeaux-Brignolle (skeletal damage to the head) caused during the air transportation process of the bodies?

To begin with, it got my attention in that these 3 suffered skeletal damage, but there was lack of skin surface damage and bruising - this seemed unusual to me. If we consider the process of bruising:

"Bruising typically occurs when a person receives an injury to an area of their skin, such as from falling or bumping into something. The blood vessels between the skin and other tissues in the body burst. The blood pools under the surface of the skin, causing a bruise. It is natural for a bruise to change color during the healing process." https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/322742#_noHeaderPrefixedConten

The bodies were in a state of livor mortis after death and were frozen under the snow. The below describes the process of livor mortis, so there would have been no blood flow to support the bruising process if the skeletal damage was done during the air transportation of the bodies.

"Postmortem lividity (livor mortis) is the settling of blood in the lowest part of the body due to gravity. This process immediately starts at the onset of death since the blood is no longer actively pumped through the body. The blood will start pressing on the skin leaving red/purple marks on the body. " https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/livor-mortis

There is no skeletal damage on the rest of the expedition crew like found with these three within the den four (Lyudmila Dubinina, Semyon Zolotaryov, and Nikolay Thibeaux-Brignolle). The den four were found later in in May of 1959, therefore transportation occurred at a separate and much later date.

Evidence supports that the helicopter crew for the transporting the den four were reluctant and protested:

"Ortyukov and some soldiers took all the bodies from the stream, carried them up the bank and placed them on special stretchers to drag them across the snow, then took them up to the pass to the helipad. It was hard work, and they repeated the same process four times. A helicopter met them on the pass, but the pilots refused to take the bodies onboard, complaining this was outside their official duties. It has been said that the pilots knew the bodies were poisoned with radiation and, for this reason, didn’t want them in the aircraft. Ortyukov sent the following radiogram:
This is a scandal! I and fourteen other people brought these bodies on our shoulders and they refused to take the bodies in spite of me insisting. As a Communist I am outraged by the behavior of the crew and ask you to inform the Communist Party leader about it. And I have to mention to you for clarity, these bodies are frozen. At this point Colonel Ortyukov reached the limits of his desperation. He took out his pistol and threatened the crew. Vladimir Askinadzi intervened, after which the medical expert reorganized how the bodies should be packed for transportation, and they were finally airlifted for transportation to Ivdel." https://dyatlovpass.com/the-den

A question arises: Were the helicopter crew also responsible for offloading the bodies in Ivdel?

If yes, is it then possible that due to reluctance of wanting to interact with the bodies that in Ivdel they may have essentially tossed or pushed the bodies off the helicopter to avoid having to touch them, or damaged them in some other way within the process?

When the bodies impacted with the ground, this could have caused the skeletal injuries, but since livor mortis had induced, resulted in the breaking of bones without surface bruising.

However, to support such a theory, this would have to assume that certain parts of the autopsy report were incorrect and that these injuries were mistaken as part of the hikers initial deaths.

I personally believe anything along these lines is possible, together with other explanations such as the chests caving in under the accumulating weight of snow, or large animals walking over them to drink from the ravine. And if people died after failed resuscitation attempts that could both explain chest fractures and the lack of bruising when they expired in the ultimate ice pack of a frozen environment.

Because the pathologist did not take samples from all 24 different fracture sites across 2 chests we can only reliably know that those he did histologically sample, which would likely be the ribs which penetrated the lining of the heart and lungs as he was looking to confirm that as the cause of death, appeared to confirm that there was cellular activity, the healing process has begun at a microscopic level, suggesting that those particular fractures occurred before death.

But for all we know the others could have happened after death, including during transportation.

[Ziljoe]

I heard of an incident where a body was manhandled or forced in to a coffin ( to fit) .bone was broken, It happens.

 I was trying to work out why the bodies were reported frozen when the were decomposing after being found in the stream.
I am now wondering if the bodies would have froze again after being taken out and left for a night at the landing site.

Given the positions of the bodies and if they were frozen , I don't know how the ribs would break along with the surrounding tissue. I think it would leave a different injury compared to what was found in the autopsy.

It would make us have to rethink much of our ideas , especially regarding the ravine 4.

It raises a number of questions , we don't see the ravine 4 bodies other than a few photos . After retrieval of the bodies from the water, was it maybe then that fractures happened, preparing them for the helicopter trip?.

The first 5 bodies were frozen , they were strapped to a sledge device and taken to boot rock. If the same was done to the ravine 4and the ravine 4 were not frozen during transportation from the ravine to boot rock. then I would agree there is possibility that careless handling could add to some of the injuries reported.