November 21, 2024, 06:25:38 PM
Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: Lyuda 5 meters of Cambric fabric  (Read 15063 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

June 18, 2023, 09:37:31 PM
Read 15063 times
Offline

KathleenDSmith1


To Whom It May Concern:

What ever happen to Lyuda's 5 meters of Cambric Fabric, which she purchased in a hurry before departing on the Dyatlov Pass, unable to find what Lyuda or anyone else did with this Cambric, (lightweight, closely woven, plain cotton cloth) but where and how anyone finds time to create/make a pants/shirt???? What photo that I discussing now is Yuri Krivonischecko who was found wearing a white cloth material (pants), but under Yuri Krivonischecko's injuries belongings were listed (White pants made of Grisbon material torn and charred in places)???

Is there a difference between both fabric Cambric versus Gisbon material...I viewed in Google Search ????
but Lyuda's inventory does not list the 5 meters Cambric Fabric.

Thank You
Kathleen Dee Smith







 

June 21, 2023, 08:43:15 AM
Reply #1
Online

Axelrod


These 5 meters are not related to the hike equipment.
After this trek, Lyuda Dubinina was going to be alive and sew dresses for herself using a sewing machine.
 

June 21, 2023, 09:17:15 AM
Reply #2
Offline

eurocentric


It would likely be for the modesty curtain, referenced in the diaries, with the two women sleeping up one end of the tent, and some of it might also serve the dual purpose of being useful for repairs to the canvas tent, a task Lyuda was reluctant to get involved in. Some tents are made entirely out of cambric.

Jan 28th Group Diary:
"Today we spend our first night in the tent. The guys are busy with the stove, sewing curtains out of sheets." (this entry is attributed, out of all likelihood, to Lyuda)

Jan 30th:
"The curtains in the tent are quite justified." (unattributed, but the writing style seems like that of Zina)


It's possible that the photo shown at 0:16 in this slideshow is Zina sewing with some of the cambric material:



My DPI approach - logic, probability and reason.
 

June 21, 2023, 09:59:47 AM
Reply #3
Offline

Ziljoe


That makes sense and agree. I would think the fabric would be light weight though. Too light for repairing the tent. If it was the same as the tent canvas at 5 meters it would add to their already heavy load.  The modesty curtain makes most sense.
 

June 23, 2023, 10:03:42 PM
Reply #4
Offline

KathleenDSmith1


Lyuda 5 meters of Cambric fabric was never found in the tent, or fabric is sewn to the tent, we all view the tent that was ripped open, and none of the fabric was seen in the tent or sewn to the tent???.....but, thanks everyone...

Thanks again
Kathleen Dee Smith
 

June 24, 2023, 07:12:22 AM
Reply #5
Online

Axelrod


People, maybe Cambric fabric has another meanings in English, but Russian meaning is following (from Wikipedia):

Бати́ст (из фр. batiste) — тонкая, полупрозрачная льняная или хлопчатобумажная ткань полотняного переплетения[1], вырабатываемая из кручёной пряжи высоких номеров (наиболее тонкой). Батист выпускается отбелённым, мерсеризованным, гладкокрашеным и набивным. Употребляется для производства женского белья, летних платьев, блузок,

Batiste (from French batiste) is a thin, translucent linen or cotton fabric of plain weave [1], produced from twisted yarn of high numbers (the thinnest). Batiste is available bleached, mercerized, dyed and printed. It is used for the production of lingerie, summer dresses, blouses,

--
so it is funny to imagine that it might be used in tent.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2023, 07:19:07 AM by Axelrod »
 

June 24, 2023, 07:37:48 AM
Reply #6
Offline

Ziljoe


I think it's quite plausible that it was used as a  privacy curtain . We have two references, one being the girls saying it was justified in the diaries. Two , the searcher's reporting the white material in the tent entrance.

Modern tents have light weave mesh inners. It would make perfect sense to use this material as a dividing curtain when the girls were changing or dealing with their personal needs. I'm sure we can maybe find other examples of this initiative in other diaries of tourists.
 

June 24, 2023, 08:28:06 AM
Reply #7
Online

Axelrod


I want to restrict your fantasies. To understand life during Soviet period, you may visit China (or better Northern Korea). I don't remember private curtains in trains during Soviet period. Only last years.

Self-made dresses (and sewing machines) were sufficiently popular during Soviet period, till late 1980th. About white sheets, they are from hostel for UPI students. Unused 2 sheets maiba from Yudin.

Favric 200 rub. per 5 meters denote 40 rub. per meter in 1959, 4 rub per meter in 1960 (due to denomination), or 10 rub. per meter (whereas 16-20 kop. per bread). It is sufficeintly expensive for tent ans sheets.
 
The following users thanked this post: Jean Daniel Reuss

June 24, 2023, 11:10:32 AM
Reply #8
Offline

eurocentric


Fantasy would be laying claim they were transporting cine films as well as dressmaking materials on a hike where keeping the back-breaking weight down was vital, and Lyuda had been permitted a smaller rucksack after being shot in the leg on a previous hike. Only essential items would be taken.

But I could be wrong, maybe she was reluctant to take her turn and sew the tent because she'd spent so much time running up a party frock?

Lyuda's needlecraft may have been legendary. Possibly as but one example of the Dubinina brand's haute couture here she models a luxurious coat she rustled up from 4 potato sacks and wolverine roadkill:


My DPI approach - logic, probability and reason.
 
The following users thanked this post: RMK

June 24, 2023, 01:12:28 PM
Reply #9
Online

Axelrod


I had consultations with my mother and she gave me some ideas.
Such amount of thin fabric is excessive for a single dress.
And totally inappropriate material for tent!

This purchase may me explained by seasonal discount. Less demand on summer fabric in winter months.
So, possible discount and therefore discounted price 200 rub. per 5 meters instead of 250 rub.
50 roubles profit for pere student!
(discount price 40 rub. per 1 meters instead of 50 rub. per 1 meters ).

No another ideas for explanation.... Except trampoline for UFO.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2023, 02:49:36 PM by Axelrod »
 

June 25, 2023, 12:33:42 PM
Reply #10
Offline

eurocentric


Even if it's also used for dress-making a girl wouldn't want a dress which was transparent in bright sunshine, and cambric is said to have a close weave which would reduce this risk. This quality would make it suitable as a changing-room curtain and prevent risk of a peepshow. If necessary it could be doubled over, two layers.

It is fact that there was a curtain in the tent, so if it wasn't made of this material the question becomes what was the curtain made of and why didn't this other material come to be recorded.

As to the original thread question where does it go - off with the tent, it effectively becomes a part of it. 
« Last Edit: June 25, 2023, 12:43:26 PM by eurocentric »
My DPI approach - logic, probability and reason.
 

June 25, 2023, 01:44:40 PM
Reply #11
Online

Axelrod


They had 10 complects "blanket+sheet+steet" from their hostels, so  they had no need for additional curtain.
Nobody of tourists had a sleeping bag .

Unfortunately "10 pairs of sheet (literally: white fabric)" was translated from Russian to English as 10 pairs of underwear in Radiogram.
I had written about it to Teodora, and she changed the translation.
 

June 26, 2023, 01:33:52 AM
Reply #12
Offline

Ziljoe


They had 10 complects "blanket+sheet+steet" from their hostels, so  they had no need for additional curtain.
Nobody of tourists had a sleeping bag .

Unfortunately "10 pairs of sheet (literally: white fabric)" was translated from Russian to English as 10 pairs of underwear in Radiogram.
I had written about it to Teodora, and she changed the translation.

I am getting a little confused. Possibly just language translation.

As I understand it , they had 10 wool blankets. 9 at the tent. Nobody has said they had sleeping bags , neither have I heard anyone talk about sheets.

Sheets are a thin white cloth for covering a mattress in English and they don't usual come in pairs?

In the diaries, the girls talk of a dividing sheet/blanket curtain . This could have been taken from anywhere but it seemed to exist.

It is new information, to me at least ,that they had sheets as well as blankets.

 

June 26, 2023, 07:49:48 AM
Reply #13
Offline

eurocentric


Sheets can come in pairs, and generally did back then in the UK at least. Long before the invention of the 'continental quilt' and later on the duvet you had 2 sheets and top blanket(s) and then, if you were lucky, a heavy counterpane in winter. But I cannot speak for Soviet bedding.

But to imagine the hikers carrying all this bedding...and yet when we look at photo's of them in transit we don't even see pots and pans hanging off their rucksacks so all that and the bedding must be inside. How did everything, all the food, cameras, a pair of binoculars, glasses and personal effects, flasks etc fit in there?

No wonder they were falling over at 2nd Northern until they got their snow legs:







And, unless I'm mistaken, when Axelrod mentioned heat pads in another thread (these were apparently used to extinguish a fire of cine film but the water made matters worse) this will likely mean hot water bottles, or what I've seen translate from Russian as 'bladders'.





My DPI approach - logic, probability and reason.
 

June 26, 2023, 08:49:09 AM
Reply #14
Offline

Ziljoe


I have faded memories of sleeping between sheets but can understand them being sold in pairs. I'm just readjusting my thoughts to having 20 sheets and ten blankets. I wasn't fully grasping the blanket with sheet + sheet. Sometimes I'm slow to get there.

So, they now have 10 wool blankets , 20 sheets with no burn marks or blood. I wouldn't have thought sheets would be much use for camping especially in winter, although  I guess it depends on what they were made of.

In my imagination , they would have somehow  doubled the wool blanket in to some kind of make shift sleeping bag. This would seem not to be the case, not that I have put much effort into thinking about the sleep systems.

If I'm getting this right, In the forest they would lay down fir branches , then back packs , padded jackets then a sheet, followed by sheet and wool blanket on top?
The same for camping on the slope but there they would use ski's for the base insulation instead of fir branches?

 

June 26, 2023, 07:00:36 PM
Reply #15
Offline

eurocentric


I agree that there'd be little benefit in taking sheets on a winter hike, although any extra layers would help, I guess. And it makes it all sound very civilised, as if in bed by 9pm in striped pyjamas or nighties. But maybe the stove was so efficient they didn't need extra blankets?

What I can't get beyond is how all this gear could fit into their rucksacks; imagine the laundry pile this volume of bedding would create. There was also the cardboard found in the labaz and perhaps the main purpose of that was to lie down on. The skis wouldn't be as wide as their bodies.

And let's not forget the hot water bottles, or bladders/heat pads, if they had them.

If all of these things applied then it sounds very cosy. It only needs a pillow with a chocolate left on it and that tent could have been the Ural Hilton.
My DPI approach - logic, probability and reason.
 

June 27, 2023, 08:00:16 AM
Reply #16
Online

Axelrod


Russians very rarely sleep in pyjamas, maybe only children.

About cordboars, I look for Google pictures ... Картон in Moderm Russian, yes, denotes cordboard, but in older language it denoted ДВП (fiberboard).
 

June 28, 2023, 04:05:49 PM
Reply #17
Offline

eurocentric


Sometimes I wonder if part of the reason this mystery was never solved is it got lost in the translation. The Russians couldn't figure out what happened and then the rest of the world were given the wrong information.
My DPI approach - logic, probability and reason.
 

June 28, 2023, 04:35:24 PM
Reply #18
Offline

Ziljoe


Sometimes I wonder if part of the reason this mystery was never solved is it got lost in the translation. The Russians couldn't figure out what happened and then the rest of the world were given the wrong information.

I agree with this. It's been said by many and it's where I like to listen to Russian independent researcher's. They will know better how things were and the have a better understanding.

Much of what we receive is over hyped and sensationalised . This includes UFO's, eye's cut out, naked undressed bodies etc etc. Most of it is artistic licence and based on speculation , with repeated quoting from the searcher's and witnesses at the time.

Everything that's been reported in the transcripts, radiograms and case files certainly looks like they didn't know, hence the vague conclusion .

This in turn leads to the possibility of something underhand having happened, fueled by inaccurate translations and perpetual mystery that sells books or hits and likes on social media.

Ive learnt that the USSR population was into its sports and outdoor activities and there's numerous accounts of deaths in summer and winter without any of these accidents being looked at in the same way? All of them could have been murders or yetis etc but never hit mainstream media, or at least the west's media.

I try to take away the myths and put  explanations in for each scenario, process of elimination where possible. ( Doesn't always work) .

For example, there seems to be no hard evidence that the area  was closed to the public or Mansi, just layers of writer's with possible alternative motives to cause mystery. Puttees were used by tourist's and we know one of the group used them in a previous photo.

We know that another group suffered frostbite and another group dug snow holes after burning their tent at the same time and general area of the DP9. The weather and conditions were against all tourists that go on such expeditions.

It was a risk they took and we can see from many photos in the past that they enjoyed doing it.
 
The following users thanked this post: Почемучка

June 29, 2023, 08:24:00 AM
Reply #19
Offline

eurocentric


I agree, though what I was getting at was things are literally lost in the translation. Some of it is absurd and easily spotted such as search engines, which conjures up the idea that AOL were somehow involved, another example is the dried loin being called brisket. People have done their best to translate documents, but mistakes are made, and even more so if as Axelrod suggests, there is such a thing as old and new Russian and they are not native speakers.

Most of us are sourcing our information from the internet, and it only takes one original published error to be replicated everywhere, or an unchallenged or corrected post in a busy thread, to misinform and generate myth. But non-Russians can only act upon what they are provided with.

Finally there is also something which, in the context of anything to do with Soviet or Russian leadership and authority, is deliberate disinformation, that if only they know the truth and everyone else is fed falsehood then it gives them power, and when authority habituates such deception then even they and all of their underlings come to believe the lie and history is rewritten.

Perhaps what is needed is a thread which lays down reliable information as peer-reviewed facts, these then become the building blocks of any theory, a reliable foundation, but I could see that even there almost everything may be open to challenge. Possibly the only thing we can rely on is that 9 people died, but where they died, how they died and why is always going to be speculation because we weren't there at the time.

Dat's why itsh a mishterrie, as Toyah Wilcox might sing.

My DPI approach - logic, probability and reason.
 

June 30, 2023, 12:35:15 AM
Reply #20
Online

Axelrod


Weight of my sheet is 663 g, so weight of 20 sheets will be 13,2 kg - like weight of tent.
Maybe these 13 kg were reserved for "search engines" and not transported to Ivdel.

Radiogram with 10 pairs of "whitewear" may be undersoood as 10 pairs iof underwear even for Russians.

Popular mistake when temperature is mentioned without word minus in Russian. E.g. tent was wound with temperature -15*C (5*F).
This is translated to USA English as Fahrenheits for +15*C (60*F). For example, in interview with Sharavin in 2013. That is very different temperature - sunny, no snow.

About accuracy of translation, maybe it will be material for another topic, but some inaccuracy of Mansi translation occures.
Buyanov writes that Kholat-chakhl and Khola-chakhl (w/o "T") have different meaning. First one denotes Dead Mountain but second one denotes Middle mountain. Further Mt. Otorten denotes Windy Mountain, but sometimes it is presented (e.g. in Wikipedia) as "Don't Go There". Which mansi word corresponds to this term I don't know. Maybe this is desinformation.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2023, 12:53:57 AM by Axelrod »
 

June 30, 2023, 10:20:57 PM
Reply #21
Offline

KathleenDSmith1


To everyone:

I view in Dyatlov Pass under "Tent" and found the image of the torn/cut tent and realized there is white material inside, but the Itemization of what was inside the tent does not mention white /cloth (cambric) inside the tent????? Why wasn't mentioned, if Lyuda or Zina sewed curtains why didn't investigators list the item/Cambric fabric ??


math keyboard fraction

I found what I was looking for regarding "cloth" and I place this under the Cambric Cloth that Lyuda purchased..unidentified through Yuri Yudin sending image...few members talk about this particular item as I was talking about Cambric Cloth..two separate items...one is called "obmotki" and the other is Cambric Cloth.....



« Last Edit: July 31, 2023, 09:56:23 PM by KathleenDSmith1 »
 

July 01, 2023, 03:45:21 AM
Reply #22
Offline

Почемучка




I am getting a little confused. Possibly just language translation.

As I understand it , they had 10 wool blankets. 9 at the tent. Nobody has said they had sleeping bags , neither have I heard anyone talk about sheets.

Sheets are a thin white cloth for covering a mattress in English and they don't usual come in pairs?

In the diaries, the girls talk of a dividing sheet/blanket curtain . This could have been taken from anywhere but it seemed to exist.

It is new information, to me at least ,that they had sheets as well as blankets.

https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-303-304?rbid=17743



Была только одна (1) простынь, которой драпировался вход в палатку. Функция - полог. Остальные фантазии - это незнание матчасти и неверный транслит.

There was only one (1) sheet that draped the entrance to the tent. Function - canopy. The remaining fantasies are ignorance of the materiel and incorrect transliteration.
Between was and was not - the river of time. You have to be able to swim - not only in the water ...
 

July 01, 2023, 05:41:12 AM
Reply #23
Online

Axelrod


Была только одна (1) простынь, которой драпировался вход в палатку. Функция - полог. Остальные фантазии - это незнание матчасти и неверный транслит.

There was only one (1) sheet that draped the entrance to the tent. Function - canopy. The remaining fantasies are ignorance of the materiel and incorrect transliteration.
This statement is in contradiction with text in Group diary
Jan 29 Ребята возятся с печкой, пришивают полог из простыни. (singular in original)
The guys are busy with the stove, sewing curtains out of sheets.  (plural in translation)

Jan 30:Полог подвешенные простыни вполне оправдывают. (The curtains in the tent are quite justified)
literal translation by google = Canopy hanging sheets justify.
word "sheets" disappeared in translation to English, so I understand your problems.

Rusian original in scan is with dash (according pucntuation rules): Полог-подвешенные простыни вполне оправдывают.



простынЯ (colloquial прОстынь)= singular
прОстыни (with stress on о) = plural
Maybe there were 2 extra sheets remaininng from Yudin, but is it only as suppusition.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2023, 05:53:22 AM by Axelrod »
 
The following users thanked this post: RMK

July 01, 2023, 07:16:03 PM
Reply #24
Offline

KathleenDSmith1


To Everyone

I should have written, this white item that was photograph inside the torn/ripped Tent, was not listed by the investigators while taking the photograph....


Thank You
Kathleen Dee Smith
 

July 07, 2023, 10:50:00 PM
Reply #25
Online

Axelrod


Maybe this



half meter for each person.
 
The following users thanked this post: KathleenDSmith1

July 08, 2023, 02:14:56 AM
Reply #26
Offline

Ziljoe


A few thoughts on the 5 meters of material, could be nothing , I had looked into this before but can't remember why. 

Two things that Axelrod said makes me think of this possibility. The 10 "sheets" and the photo above.

Could it be foot wraps, portyanki I. Russian I believe, instead of socks, apparently they have some advantages and are easier to dry.

Not that this has anything to do with the mystery but you never know. I'm sure there was mention of Dyatlov being quite particular about feet and looking after them. Forthright in his attitude to his team and making sure the feet are dry etc.

We have bare feet or people in socks footprints, raised melted footprints , wet socks in the labaz inside a pair of boots, different socks and mismatching pairs and number of socks on the hikers , two hikers with a single boot, socks found on the ground at the ceder ,one hiker with a pair of felt boots, one with foot insoles in his jacket, another with insoles under her socks? Makes one think they were blind. 
 
The following users thanked this post: marieuk

July 08, 2023, 06:14:26 AM
Reply #27
Online

Axelrod


20 Roubles per person in 1959 corresponds to 2 Roubles in 1961 (after denomination) and ~5 Roubles in late 80th (e/g/ in1989).
It is one-day salary. Maybe Lyuda should buy less expensive fabric.

This material is called бахилы around trousers in DPI, but in such high form as on photos - it doesn't corrwespond neither modern meaning f word (light-blue in hospitals), nor ( as I remember them) like slippers in museums in 1989.
 

July 08, 2023, 09:18:04 AM
Reply #28
Offline

Ziljoe


What I understand the foot cloth to be are these. I post this purely for conversation and to share.

















wordsworth the solitary reaper analysis


There seems to be some debate as to how useful they are on the forum below, although they mention winter a lot because of how easy they are to dry. ( Over 10 pages?)







Also in the photos above by Eurocentric, there seems to be a lite coloured material around the lower leg held in place by string , they look like make shift gaiters.

I have also read that valenki sometimes had a slipper type sole covering.

Also whilst searching this topic, some person mentioned that the padded jackets were highly inflammable ( non of this was in connection with the DPI) . She also said they were almost impossible to extinguish and would smolder away.




 
The following users thanked this post: KathleenDSmith1