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Author Topic: What I Believe (for what it's worth!)  (Read 22792 times)

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February 03, 2024, 01:38:22 PM
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MDGross


I appreciate Teddy’s and Igor’s scenario. The idea of a tree falling on the tent and causing the fatal injuries to three of the hikers is plausible. And with dogged commitment, Teddy continues to find physical evidence, which is remarkable. My problems with this scenario are three-fold. First, there’s the troubling photo of the hikers digging a trench on a slope in the failing light. The trench seems too large for just a storage depot. And the picture conveys an unsettling sense of hurrying against the dark. Second, even if they couldn’t reach their shoes and coats, why wouldn’t the hikers who got out of the tent eventually wrap themselves in the blankets they were sleeping in. They knew that hypothermia was now their greatest threat. Third, assuming there was a restaging, many people would have known what happened. I find it hard to believe that in the ensuing years that not even of them ever talked about it. It goes against human nature.

What did happen? Did the hikers in their tent on the slope feel their lives were in immediate danger so that they had no time but to cut the side of the tent and exit into the freezing night in their sleeping clothes? Once outside the tent they appeared to walk down the slope in an orderly manner and not in a panic. If they believed there was an avalanche, why were they simply walking down the slope and in the same direction as an avalanche would be traveling?

Or had they become irrational from infrasound, tainted bread, poisoned water, mushroom spores and so forth? Wouldn’t a few of the hikers not as been as severely affected and remain in or near the tent? Once again, why would hikers who were not thinking clearly, proceed in what appears to be an orderly manner?       

Or else? It seems perhaps strange that Zolotaryov and Thibeaux-Brignolle were the only two hikers properly dressed for the cold and were standing together outside the tent. Both men had reasons to be disillusioned with the Soviet government. Zolotaryov’s brother had been wounded in the war, returned to his home village, and then accused and executed by the Soviet army for aiding the German occupation force. The shadow of his brother’s guilt hung over Zolotaryov. He was not allowed to continue his military career following the war. Jobs were difficult for him to find, and he was reprimanded and released from one job== after the other.

Tibo’s father, Vladimir Iosifovich, was sent to a Gulag in 1932. Tibo was born in Osinniki, a city on the edge of the Gulag, in 1935. In 1938, his father was sent to eastern Siberia while his wife and children remained behind. Finally free to work in 1941, he died a broken man in 1942. Although by 1959, Tibo was described as a fun-loving young man, others remarked about his absolute belief in doing what was right. I wonder how bitter he felt over his father’s unjust imprisonment (Vladimir Iosifovich was fully rehabilitated by Decree in 1991). When they had the chance to be alone together on the hike, did Tibo and Semyon talk about their disillusionment with the Soviet system?

In 1959 the Cold War was in full swing. A nuclear bomb test ban treaty was agreed upon, but neither the US nor the Soviet Union trusted each other and for good reason. The CIA paid Soviet citizens to steal and pass on classified documents while the KGB paid Americans to do the same. Spying was a way of life and a profitable one at that.
On the night of Jan. 31, 1959, Semyon and Tibo waited outside for the CIA to show up. One of them, probably Semyon, had documents and/or photos to share. Semyon’s reward was to get out of the Soviet Union with help from the CIA. He was only too happy to take Tibo along. But, there’s almost always a but, the KGB showed up first. Those inside the tent were ordered outside in their sleeping clothes only. Then everyone was marched down the slope to the forest. No need to hurry. To make it look like the hikers themselves had decided to shelter in the forest, why not let them cut branches and build a fire? And let them, perhaps force them, to build a snow shelter. At all costs, the KGB could not be implicated in any wrongdoing.  For whatever mysterious reason, the hikers had left their tent and were now trying to survive on their own in the forest. Let the hikers remove clothing from those who died first. And let the living exchange bits of clothing in an effort to help keep one another warm. It would all prove in vain. But, Tibo, Semyon and and Lyudmila, who probably was the most volatile of the group, decided to fight. What they received was repeated beatings by rifle butts of their ribs, chest and skull. Then they were tossed into the ravine. No eyewitnesses remained. In the years ahead, the KGB would come under suspicion, but no evidence of their deed was ever found. Officially the hikers died by some unknown force of nature, and that was that.

A few years ago, I wrote to the CIA under the Freedom of Information Act and asked specifically about their involvement with Semyon Aleksandrovich Zolotaryov. They answered that they may or may not have been involved, but, in either case, the information was classified. 

I have never read about any involvement by the KGB in the Dyatlov Pass Incident. But on an emotional, intuitive level I believe this is what happened.  I do, however, continue to support Teddy’s dedicated work with occasional monetary donations and hope others do as well.                                                             
 
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February 03, 2024, 06:10:34 PM
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GlennM


A few years ago, I wrote to the CIA under the Freedom of Information Act and asked specifically about their involvement with Semyon Aleksandrovich Zolotaryov. They answered that they may or may not have been involved, but, in either case, the information was classified.

 Time to get on a first name basis with your congressman.
We don't have to say everything that comes into our head.
 

February 03, 2024, 06:20:21 PM
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Ziljoe


Nice to see you back MDGross.
 

February 03, 2024, 09:03:00 PM
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GlennM


The problems I have with this theory are several. There is no "trail" indicating how or where Zolo obtained secret documents. Secondly, because of his brother, Zolo was already on the radar of the authorities. Third, he made an announcement that he was going to do something important. Calling attention to himself seems ill advised. Fourth, it was only because a vacancy became available that Zolo was accepted into the group. Fifth, how in the world was he going to be extracted?

If Zolo was going to defect, I would think his "currency" would be hidden on that second camera of his. Maybe someone could find it and peel back the leather.
We don't have to say everything that comes into our head.
 

February 03, 2024, 10:58:55 PM
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anna_pycckux


 Zolotarev:
The journalists of the KP newspaper discovered new archival documents that on March 7, the executive committee of the Department, at the direction of the Sverdlovsk City Committee, decided to pay Zolotarev's mother 1,000 rubles on a one-time basis. The last 4 bodies have not yet been found, that is, according to all the rules, they are missing, the investigation has not yet been completed, the search is in full swing, and Zolotarev is declared dead at the highest level.
What does it mean:
1.   There was no avalanche or hurricane, because monetary compensation for the accidental stupidity of tourists who did not calculate their strength is not provided.. even if these tourists turned out to be all members of the CPSU
2.   The party authorities did not expect that in Dyatlov's group there would be a party man Zolotarev, a front-line soldier and an order bearer. (Zolotarev joined the group at the last moment). The party authorities paid compensation to the mother, feeling guilty.
3.   How can the authorities be sure that Zolotarev did not flee abroad, but died along with everyone else? This can only happen when the authorities themselves gave the order for liquidation and were sure that the order was executed.


 

February 04, 2024, 06:33:12 AM
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GlennM


Ordering an execution and paying the next of kin seems counterintuitive. It would be good to know the stated reason in the letter for the dole. It would be good to know if Zolo's payout was linked to his military pension. If money was paid before bodies were found,  can we also assume the wolf, badger and birds got to the bodies instead. If the hikers were executed, does it make sense that the killers would search for the CIA? The CIA must have transportation. The KGB has planes and helicopters. If this was spying and defection, the whole issue would have been a high profile political embarassment for the USA. Khrushchev already had Gary Powers. Instead, the hikers had autopsies, dignified burials, monuments, a death benefit for Zolo and repercussions for administrators. I believe that Natural causes is still more compelling than assasination.  Perhaps MD Gross will uncover additional US government information about the alleged defection. Thanks for researching and posting the image of document Anna. It certainly fits your theory in a peripheral way.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2024, 06:52:43 AM by GlennM »
We don't have to say everything that comes into our head.
 

February 04, 2024, 06:43:51 AM
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anna_pycckux


Ordering an execution and paying the next of kin seems counterintuitive.
I REPEAT!! Point 2: "The party leadership did not know that in Dyatlov's group there would be a member of the Zolotarev party, a front-line soldier and an order bearer. (Zolotarev joined the group at the last moment). The party authorities paid compensation to the mother, feeling guilty."
 

February 04, 2024, 07:47:00 AM
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anna_pycckux


I believe that Natural causes is still more compelling than assasination.

Мое мнение: туристы ликвидированы во время 21 съезда КПСС из-за ложного доноса.
The CIA and the natural versions have nothing to do with this.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2024, 09:12:57 AM by amashilu »
 

February 04, 2024, 11:48:13 AM
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GlennM


We don't have to say everything that comes into our head.
 

February 06, 2024, 05:21:29 AM
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amashilu

Global Moderator
A few years ago, I wrote to the CIA under the Freedom of Information Act and asked specifically about their involvement with Semyon Aleksandrovich Zolotaryov. They answered that they may or may not have been involved, but, in either case, the information was classified. 

This is interesting. Why would they refuse to confirm or deny a request about Zolotaryev? A quick look at the DOJ site (https://www.justice.gov/oip/blog/foia-update-oip-guidance-privacy-glomarization) indicates that this is called "glomarization" and the explanation for using glomarization is quoted here:

" ... a FOIA request seeking records which would indicate that a particular political figure, prominent businessman or even just an ordinary citizen has been the subject of a law enforcement investigation may require an agency to flatly refuse to confirm or deny whether such records exist. Such an extraordinary response can be justified only when the confirmation or denial of the existence of responsive records would, in and of itself, reveal exempt information."
 

February 06, 2024, 06:12:55 AM
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Axelrod


You should ask for a correct name. Semyon Alexeevich or Semyon Alexandrovich are different persones!
 

February 08, 2024, 02:14:05 PM
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MDGross


Yes, I was mistaken. His middle name as you suggested is Alekseevich. I could ask again, but I don't think it will make any difference.
 

February 08, 2024, 02:29:38 PM
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MDGross


Yes, "glomarization" refers to a ship, the Glomar Explorer, which was secretly used by the CIA to find and raise a sunken Soviet submarine. A newspaper reporter asked the CIA about using the ship and one of the CIA's attorneys wrote the now famous or maybe I should say infamous CIA's Glomar Explorer response. It's still used today decades later. One such letter was mailed to me. Basically it says the CIA neither admits nor denies involvement and whether it was involved or not is protected by the National Security Act.
 

February 08, 2024, 03:25:09 PM
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Ziljoe


I don't think our governments would release any information if it involved spy's, moles etc. The lineage of spy, intelligence networks , which will probably still exist to this day would never be given to the public.

I'm pretty sure they still play cat and mouse. Even if there's nothing serious to spy on , intelligence services will still aim to get funding as an organisation that makes money.

I'm not a believer in UFO's although it's most likely that there's life on other planets, I don't think they got to planet earth and crashed and chat with government.

Russian or soviet Submarines have been sailing into Scottish (UK)waters for years. Extremely close calls and pathetic defence have been made public which is a suprise.

But it doesn't involve spy's I suppose, just incompetent country defence.
 

February 09, 2024, 07:27:34 AM
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amashilu

Global Moderator
I don't think our governments would release any information if it involved spy's, moles etc. The lineage of spy, intelligence networks , which will probably still exist to this day would never be given to the public.

Agreed.
So is that an indication that Zolotaryev was involved in something spy-like?
If he was not, they could have just written back to MDGross, "There is no information in our files on this individual. He is not known to us."
 

February 09, 2024, 07:44:05 AM
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GlennM


The conundrum is that whereas at the citizen level, the Soviet people are kind, responsible and productive, at the governmental level there is suspicion,  power grabs and manipulation. The effect both then and now is " Who can you trust?"
It seems no matter what time or country a person exists, its always the same thing, people with less power are suspicious of those with more power. Consequently, it does not surprise me that conspiracy advocates then and now have fertile ground for their theories.

If there was government involvement, it typically takes one of two extremes. Either the victim is made an example of by exposure, humiliation and punishment, or the entire matter is suppressed. I feel safe to say that neither is the case here. I also think it has as much to do with the point of view of any chronicler of the event. Everyone sees the world through their personal filter. I do too.

The DPI is not Chernobyl. I find it impossible to believe it was even low stakes espionage. I find it improbable that a blasting accident in the forest would result in such a half baked effort to cover up the event. I find it totally unrealistic to believe after six decades that the truth is not revealed. What makes sense is the standard canon. They camped where they did, they left because they wanted to, they couldn't immediately return, Nature got the best of them. Blame it on a slab,slip.
We don't have to say everything that comes into our head.
 

February 09, 2024, 01:43:22 PM
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Ziljoe


I don't think our governments would release any information if it involved spy's, moles etc. The lineage of spy, intelligence networks , which will probably still exist to this day would never be given to the public.

Agreed.
So is that an indication that Zolotaryev was involved in something spy-like?
If he was not, they could have just written back to MDGross, "There is no information in our files on this individual. He is not known to us."


That's obvious, MDGross works for the KGB....( Joke)

There may be connection to the incident with western intelligence . They could well be listening in at the time and the Soviet's could have been deliberately releasing failed rocket tests etc( although there was none).

In world of spy's and double spy's, fake information etc. You just say nothing . We the public are not to know I guess.
 
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February 10, 2024, 09:29:15 AM
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eurocentric


If the KGB was involved I don't believe they went out there and killed them all, because they would have trouble finding them at night, wouldn't be able to land the required helicopter on the mountain slope and would risk exposure, first marching up, and then marching hikers down the mountain in sub zero conditions.

Plus, unless they had checked their intended supplies at the Uni, they wouldn't know if the group or Semyon were armed with the usual hunting rifles, and a war veteran with a revolver, and approaching an armed tent on higher ground is too much of a firefight risk, so some other more favourable moment would be chosen.

If the KGB were involved I think they would contaminate the hikers' provisions while they slept at Vizhay, something like Strychnine in the bread rusks, having to kill all as they couldn't determine what Semyon would consume. This would also explain the odd behaviour in the days leading to their deaths, as recorded in the diaries, until, the odourless and tasteless white powder, tending to settle to the bottom of any sack, the hikers overdosed on the poison atop 1079.

They then headed down to the ravine, to a freshwater source, some taking with them cans of condensed milk, as first-aid training when dealing with a poisoning, and died of the elements, this medical emergency, resulting seizures and pain, overwriting all other concerns about their environment.

The Kremlin reportedly still does this to this day (okay, I know, it's the  Daily Star):

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/world-news/excruciatingly-painful-poison-reportedly-used-27095143

If the KGB did go out there at night, and this might then usefully explain Semyon's night photo's, which must surely be of a helicopter in the night sky, for what else outside of rare phenomena can explain a static white light, then I guess one or more KGB might have been able to alight from a helicopter hovering very low down a rope ladder, explaining the snow swirls near the tent, and they would do as is suggested, slicing the tent to ensure they didn't return, and marching them off in the dark to near certain death from underdressed hypothermia, and this then limits the superhuman exposure of KGB to the frostbiting elements.

But my gut tells me that in the second scenario they would instead selectively apprehend their wanted man, and pluck him from the group and allow the others, all innocents, to continue on their hike. And I don't think they would leave hikers with matches, knives and torches, all potential means to survival, so I return to the poisoning as my favoured logical variation on this theory.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2024, 09:35:32 AM by eurocentric »
My DPI approach - logic, probability and reason.
 

February 10, 2024, 09:43:10 AM
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MDGross


Ziljoe, It's funny because eons ago, I did apply for a job with the CIA after graduating from college. I made the Final Cut, or so I'm told, but didn't get the job. Damn, and I could have researched CIA files about the DPI.

Eurocentric, A plausible variation to the KGB scenario. I'm certain that KGB agents then and now have lots of practice about killing people in undetectable ways
 
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February 10, 2024, 11:42:28 AM
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Axelrod


Buyanov about Zolotarev:

Zolotarev is a real Soviet man in the true sense of the word. He fought, has a number of awards, and the very concept of a front-line soldier already speaks volumes.

Surprisingly, his easy-going nature allowed Semyon to retain his good nature and sense of humor even after everything he had gone through at the front. He is not just an amateur tourist. He is a camp instructor - a man who, by the age of 37, has already seen so much and learned so much that he is able to teach others.

Zolotarev, despite all his merits, is a modest and unassuming person, sociable, there is always something to talk about with him. He is one of those people who can talk a lot and interestingly, and at the same time not boast at all about his own merits. He is a true reliable friend, about whom you can say: you can go on reconnaissance with him!

("go on reconnaissance"sounds in Russian similar to "intelligence service")

ORIGINAL: Буянов про Золотарёва:

Золотарёв - настоящий советский человек в подлинном понимании этого слова. Он воевал, имеет ряд наград, а само понятие фронтовик уже говорит о многом.

Удивительно но его лёгкий нрав позволил Семёну сохранить добродушие и чувство юмора даже после всего пройденного на фронте. Он не просто турист-любитель. Он инструктор турбазы - человек, который к своим 37 годам уже столько повидал и так многому научился, что способен учить других.

Золотарёв, при всех заслугах, скромный и непритязательный человек, коммуникабельный, с ним всегда есть о чём поговорить. Он из тех людей, которые могут рассказывать много и интересно, и при этом совершенно не хвастаться собственными заслугами. Он настоящий надежный друг, про которого можно сказать: с ним можно идти в разведку!
 

February 10, 2024, 02:19:43 PM
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Ziljoe, It's funny because eons ago, I did apply for a job with the CIA after graduating from college. I made the Final Cut, or so I'm told, but didn't get the job. Damn, and I could have researched CIA files about the DPI.

Eurocentric, A plausible variation to the KGB scenario. I'm certain that KGB agents then and now have lots of practice about killing people in undetectable ways


These days you dont need to be a member of a secret service organisation to work for them. In Britain you can be a volunteer worker by passing on info that may be of use. Apparently some times money changes hands for certain info. So you could say that spies are potentially everywhere. Maybe it was similar in 1959. But the circumstances of the Dyatlov Mystery tell me that spies were not involved.
DB
 
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February 10, 2024, 03:52:58 PM
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GlennM


Did you there was someone named Dyatlov in a position of authority at Chernobyl?  I don't think Dyatlov is a common Russian surname.
We don't have to say everything that comes into our head.
 

February 10, 2024, 04:18:21 PM
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Ziljoe


A'ha MDGross! Denying your a cia agent. Very clever!

Could have been a very interesting job!
 

February 11, 2024, 03:08:16 AM
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Олег Таймень




I have never read about any involvement by the KGB in the Dyatlov Pass Incident. But on an emotional, intuitive level I believe this is what happened.  I do, however, continue to support Teddy’s dedicated work with occasional monetary donations and hope others do as well.                                                             
And it is right! I also believe that it will be Teddy who will get to the bottom of the truth of this tragedy.
If a mountain comes towards you, and you are not Mohammed, then it is a rockfall.
 

February 13, 2024, 07:27:50 PM
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GlennM


Recalling the wreck of the Spanish Galleon Atocha. Much of the significant work was done in the library in Seville. The actual discovery was made after years of frustrating hit and miss diving. I mention this only to suggest that after 65 years, Nature is going to be quite reluctant to give up her secrets, but the paper trail is always there. If the paper trail leads to nothing, then it must be Nature. So far, the paper trail is rife with speculation and short on facts. If an expedition finds the proverbial smoking gun after these decades of time, it would be a miracle of sorts.

I'd still like to know what the toxicology report said. I'd like to know if Zolos diary actually had an entry.


interview
Regarding the notebook and pen in Zolotaryov’s hands. Because the dead Zolotaryov himself could not hold the notebook in his hand for 3 months, can you assume that one of the strangers (searchers) put the notebook in his hands late in the evening or at night before the removal of the corpses? Do you think that the notebook could contain the name of the killer?
V.M. - We were searchers, not forensic experts. I only remember what I saw myself, when Ortyukov feverishly leafed through it and it turned out to be blank (maybe the text was washed away by the water, then it’s not clear why the notebook didn’t get to the forensic lab... or maybe it did, but its contents are in a secret case file? ). You can make up any story, even the most incredible!!

I'd  like to know that too.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2024, 09:10:00 PM by GlennM »
We don't have to say everything that comes into our head.
 

February 14, 2024, 12:28:22 PM
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MDGross


This is from an interview of Yudin:


[–] What's going on?

[Y.:] The reason that killed the guys. It continues to this day.

[–] And in your opinion, what was the reason? What ruined?

[Y.:] In my opinion, this is a purge. This is on the one hand. Why did the purges appear? Since they had already run into the wrong place, well, where it was not necessary to come. But it is not their fault that they happened to be witnesses and were poisoned. They were already doomed, because Ivanov told me so. Here is the word «doomed.» They just weren't needed. They reported on command. They were told what they were? So, spies.

[–] Why did Ivanov tell you that they were doomed?

[Y..:] They were already poisoned due to their health. But Ivanov didn't tell me that. He told me that there was an elemental force – a hurricane. And they were afraid of it. But knowing them each separately, who could do what, I completely exclude this version. No hurricane. These guys were adequate in any situation. Moreover, there was such an experienced Zolotaryov. Igor, too, before making a decision, he would have to find out what is there? Of course, there was no hurricane there…
-----

This gives credence to Eurocentric's poisoning by the KGB scenario. Any number of theories involve the hikers being killed because they saw some kind of secret military installation. 
 
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February 14, 2024, 02:48:03 PM
Reply #26
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GlennM


Frankly, it reads like gobbledygook. Yuden, a Stalinist, would love it to be assasination so he could hate Khrushchev and his government. This business of spies is so 1950's. It's also one of those " guilty until proven innocent" accusations that anyone can use. There were six expeditions in the region plus Mansi etc. at the time.

The biggest objection is why they would set their last camp where they did, instead of the forest. Simple efficiency, I believe.They trudged through deep snow up to the pass, exchanging places as they went. The high ground offered a faster approach to Ortoten at the cost of exposure on the ridge. Why did they leave so poorly shod? They travelled in fog the last day, they camped in fog and they abandoned the tent in fog. This is why Zolo had a compass. They did not actually know how far away the treeline was.

There was nothing to be gained except a whole lot of unwanted attention by deliberately murdering 9 loyal Soviets, 8 of which were valuable university trained science specialists. There was no cock-a-doodle from the authorities saying "gotcha!"

Yuden was just as wrong as hundreds of others. He was a product of his time. Nature is  indifferent.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2024, 09:16:29 PM by GlennM »
We don't have to say everything that comes into our head.
 

February 19, 2024, 07:30:28 AM
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Per Inge Oestmoen


This is from an interview of Yudin:

[–] What's going on?

[Y.:] The reason that killed the guys. It continues to this day.

[–] And in your opinion, what was the reason? What ruined?

[Y.:] In my opinion, this is a purge. This is on the one hand. Why did the purges appear? Since they had already run into the wrong place, well, where it was not necessary to come. But it is not their fault that they happened to be witnesses and were poisoned. They were already doomed, because Ivanov told me so. Here is the word «doomed.» They just weren't needed. They reported on command. They were told what they were? So, spies.

[–] Why did Ivanov tell you that they were doomed?

[Y..:] They were already poisoned due to their health. But Ivanov didn't tell me that. He told me that there was an elemental force – a hurricane. And they were afraid of it. But knowing them each separately, who could do what, I completely exclude this version. No hurricane. These guys were adequate in any situation. Moreover, there was such an experienced Zolotaryov. Igor, too, before making a decision, he would have to find out what is there? Of course, there was no hurricane there…
-----

This gives credence to Eurocentric's poisoning by the KGB scenario. Any number of theories involve the hikers being killed because they saw some kind of secret military installation.


Hello!

The injuries suffered by the nine students can only be fully explained by murder by professionals.

Yes, they must have observed something that made them a threat to state security.

A bit in this puzzle which is most illustrative of the sophistication of the murderers is the initial investigation of the Mansi. The Mansi were in the area, they would likely have observed the landing of a helicopter, the presence of the bodies and the ski tracks that were subsequently erased by the weather during the long period from the night of murder to the discovery of the tent.

What did the autohorities do?

They questioned some of the Mansi, and made it clear that their people were under suspicion. Then, suddenly, it was declared that a seamstress had stated that the students' tent had been cut from the inside with the implication that the students had cut their tent themselves. No scientific report of this was ever made, of course.

What happened?

The Mansi were first told that they were suspected of being the killers. Then suddenly, like a bolt from the blue, a seamstress was said to have made a statement that freed them of every suscpicion. The Mansi were given the message, in a mercilessly intelligent way, that if they ever divulged what they had seen new evidence that implicated them would be invented and they would face the consequences. It worked. The Mansi have kept silent ever since.

Another detali:

It has been claimed that the damages to the rib cages of Zolotaryov and Dubinina could not be caused by a human attack. That is a false statement, and this shows us that someone wanted to deny what happened. Since I have studied jiu jitsu, I know very well that elbow strikes from a highly trained special forces operator can even break the skull of a human. Still, it was falsely said that the injuries could not be caused by another human.

Now it is stated that a tree fell over Zolotaryov and Dubinina, and that the branches of the tree injured the rest of the students. I feel sorry for the nine murder victims and their families, but it seems doubtful that the full truth will ever be exposed. Those who made the decision to kill the nine unfortunates who observed something they were not allowed to know about, those who performed the killing, and the Mansi who must have been aware, are now long gone.

It is said that those who talk do not know, and those who know to not talk.

However, I believe that Ivanov said it in Aesopean language. There was an uncontrollable force in the Soviet Union, a force no one could overcome. It was the most sophisticated intelligence agency in all of human history - the Committee of State Security, KGB. In Russian Комитет государственной безопасности (КГБ).

Will the truth of the Dyatlov Pass tragedy ever be exposed?
 

February 19, 2024, 09:09:31 AM
Reply #28
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Ziljoe


This is from an interview of Yudin:

[–] What's going on?

[Y.:] The reason that killed the guys. It continues to this day.

[–] And in your opinion, what was the reason? What ruined?

[Y.:] In my opinion, this is a purge. This is on the one hand. Why did the purges appear? Since they had already run into the wrong place, well, where it was not necessary to come. But it is not their fault that they happened to be witnesses and were poisoned. They were already doomed, because Ivanov told me so. Here is the word «doomed.» They just weren't needed. They reported on command. They were told what they were? So, spies.

[–] Why did Ivanov tell you that they were doomed?

[Y..:] They were already poisoned due to their health. But Ivanov didn't tell me that. He told me that there was an elemental force – a hurricane. And they were afraid of it. But knowing them each separately, who could do what, I completely exclude this version. No hurricane. These guys were adequate in any situation. Moreover, there was such an experienced Zolotaryov. Igor, too, before making a decision, he would have to find out what is there? Of course, there was no hurricane there…
-----

This gives credence to Eurocentric's poisoning by the KGB scenario. Any number of theories involve the hikers being killed because they saw some kind of secret military installation.


Hello!

The injuries suffered by the nine students can only be fully explained by murder by professionals.

Yes, they must have observed something that made them a threat to state security.

A bit in this puzzle which is most illustrative of the sophistication of the murderers is the initial investigation of the Mansi. The Mansi were in the area, they would likely have observed the landing of a helicopter, the presence of the bodies and the ski tracks that were subsequently erased by the weather during the long period from the night of murder to the discovery of the tent.

What did the autohorities do?

They questioned some of the Mansi, and made it clear that their people were under suspicion. Then, suddenly, it was declared that a seamstress had stated that the students' tent had been cut from the inside with the implication that the students had cut their tent themselves. No scientific report of this was ever made, of course.

What happened?

The Mansi were first told that they were suspected of being the killers. Then suddenly, like a bolt from the blue, a seamstress was said to have made a statement that freed them of every suscpicion. The Mansi were given the message, in a mercilessly intelligent way, that if they ever divulged what they had seen new evidence that implicated them would be invented and they would face the consequences. It worked. The Mansi have kept silent ever since.

Another detali:

It has been claimed that the damages to the rib cages of Zolotaryov and Dubinina could not be caused by a human attack. That is a false statement, and this shows us that someone wanted to deny what happened. Since I have studied jiu jitsu, I know very well that elbow strikes from a highly trained special forces operator can even break the skull of a human. Still, it was falsely said that the injuries could not be caused by another human.

Now it is stated that a tree fell over Zolotaryov and Dubinina, and that the branches of the tree injured the rest of the students. I feel sorry for the nine murder victims and their families, but it seems doubtful that the full truth will ever be exposed. Those who made the decision to kill the nine unfortunates who observed something they were not allowed to know about, those who performed the killing, and the Mansi who must have been aware, are now long gone.

It is said that those who talk do not know, and those who know to not talk.

However, I believe that Ivanov said it in Aesopean language. There was an uncontrollable force in the Soviet Union, a force no one could overcome. It was the most sophisticated intelligence agency in all of human history - the Committee of State Security, KGB. In Russian Комитет государственной безопасности (КГБ).

Will the truth of the Dyatlov Pass tragedy ever be exposed?

Hello,

There are number of ways to explain the injuries.murder by professionals wouldn't leave such a mess. Maybe murder, not professional....

What could they have observed that made them a threat to state security? It's the middle of no where, Mansi roam freely, students hike. All of the Soviet Union can see the rockets in the sky . There are no secrets of rockets or missile, not even to the west. Everyone knows about the cold war...

The Mansi weren't told they did the murder of the students, it was a possibility amidst the confusion .

Declaration of the tent being cut from the inside doesn't make the Mansi free of potential murder, or anyone else for that matter. It is just an observation. The Mansi, KGB , aliens, avalanche or any subsequent event could of caused the internal cutting of the tent. That fact doesn't prove anything, inoccent or guilty.

If the Mansi observed things similar to the Dyatlov group, why did the Mansi not get killed?

No one said or has implied another human can't break bones , jiu jitsu or not, I'm sure I could have a go. It's the nature of the rib fractures that's the problem, they are along a parallel line if I understand correctly. Ones elbo is not big enough to fracture along the line. The injuries suggest one impact , a crush injury, like a car crash, or a tree . 

The rib fractures are the puzzle, but they were not discovered until May. It's this that is the confusion and we must remember the rib fractures were found in the ravine under a mass of snow. I don't think we can ignore that.



 
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February 19, 2024, 11:41:43 AM
Reply #29
Online

GlennM


We don't have to say everything that comes into our head.