Pitching a tent in 1959

[amashilu]

Thinking about the suggestion that the tent was not originally pitched on the slope where it was later discovered, but in the forest (and moved later) ... would the tent, in the forest, have been put on top of a line of skiis?

[Axelrod]

I believe that the idea of setting up a tent near a cedar tree belongs to the category of fiction.
This is the same fiction as Fantômas, which I am currently working on to write the 45th story about Fantômas.

Several books have been written in English, where throughout the book the authors describe the chronology of events, and at the end they offer their version of events.
Doni Eicher (I can’t reproduce the spelling) believes that it was infrasound from the stones.
Igor and Teodora suggest that the tree fell on the tent.

I don’t believe this at all, but it is little possible that the injuries of some participants occurred when they fell from the tree, or when a tree fell on them when they went into the cedar zone.

[Teddy]

Thinking about the suggestion that the tent was not originally pitched on the slope where it was later discovered, but in the forest (and moved later) ... would the tent, in the forest, have been put on top of a line of skiis?

Askinadzi answered this question: https://dyatlovpass.com/tree-cores#tentaskinadzi

[amashilu]

Thanks, Teddy! Below is the quote from that page. To me, it says we don't really know if the group took the time to lay spruce branches, or chose the quicker ski platform method.



Askinadzi on setting up a tent in winter (from my private mail exchange):

It is at the sole discretion of the leader of the group if to put up a tent on skis or spruce branches. In winter when the days are short, sometimes there’s not enough time to set up a good camp (we arrived at the end point late). This is where you need to show power! Setting up a tent on skis takes much less time than on spruce branches, but there are some nuances - does the group have enough warm clothes to lay for insulation?

If the leader decided, and he had the opportunity, to put up a tent on the spruce branches, it means he had enough daylight for this. But, in this case, he must either be an alpha leader or a the group to work well together. Setting up a tent on spruce branches will take much longer than with skis. At least half of the group will be diverted to this activity. If the hike is multi-day, the leader, even before setting out on the route, decides who will set up the tent(s), so that people know their job (this is practiced in training hikes) and, without a command, take axes and go to harvest spruce branches. Skis were sometimes placed under spruce branches when there was not enough spruce branches.

[Teddy]

Thanks, Teddy! Below is the quote from that page. To me, it says we don't really know if the group took the time to lay spruce branches, or chose the quicker ski platform method.

Correct, we do not know.

[amashilu]

If the tree falling theory is correct, then I would put my money on spruce branches, because the tree would have snapped the skiis like little sticks when it fell.

[Teddy]

This is what I am trying to find near the cedar, a bed of spruce branches on the same dept as the tin can which is manufactured in 1958. Problem is the spruce branches don't respond to metal detector. I hope to find more metal objects and dig close to them.

Another interesting find would be a second fire pit. Because the one we know about was only powdered with snow and I don't believe it belonged to the Dyatlov gruop.

[Teddy]

And if you ask me how come no one has found them it is because no one is looking.
In 2022 when I spent the night near the cedar my comrades were looking for Yeti and paranormal activity at night, they even had night vision googles.
I mean WTF.

[amashilu]

I imagine the spruce bed would be under the fallen tree, or near-to-under. You will need some powerful tools to move that tree. Trees are incredibly heavy. Is this what you plan to try?

[Teddy]

I can't move the tree but I can dig around it. I have secured a metal detector.

Problem is that they didn't have time to discard a lot of cans, they didn't have supper that night.

Every time I go back to the case I see why is it so hard to solve, because they died where they were found, but in the meantime, while dead, they went places and came back. Not on they own of course. We have layers of evidence left at a different time, and now we are trying to peel off who left what. Like the fire, the labaz, the tent...

[Ziljoe]

In the diary, it would seem practice to use  fir branches, I don't think they would bother with both?

"As usual we quickly start a fire and pitch the tent on some fir branches. We are warmed by the fire and go to sleep"

[Teddy]

Could have fooled me. They should be from the type of trees that are near by but the needles will be gone. I don't think I will be able to tell the difference.
Yudin made a note that the branches used for the den (flooring) did not match the trees around.
https://dyatlovpass.com/yudin-notes#trees
"it is said that the flooring was made with fir branches, but in fact there were only spruce trees around." It is written in the criminal case that the searchers found a flooring made of fir branches in the Lozva valley, but only the tops of some spruce trees were cut nearby.

[Ziljoe]

Sorry, my poor grammar and translation problems.

On the English version it says fir, in the diary entry , when I use the Russian text, the auto translate says spruce .

When I say I don't think they would use both, I meant, I don't think they would use fir/spruce branches AND skis. This is my assumption on what's written in the diary because I think you would want to keep the bindings out of the snow if you could . Plus you would need to find or make a level spot for the skis on the forest floor that would possibly make as much work as cutting some fir or spruce branches?.

Fir and spruce seem to translate for both across languages, in translation and perhaps ignorance of those with knowledge about trees.

[Ziljoe]

I think Yuri Yudin may have got a few things wrong. How did he know they didn't match the trees around?

[Teddy]

Yudin went there in 1963. But I don't believe they knew where the den was back then.

Something else is on my mind. In all interviews Koptelov, who saw the bodies before anyone else (with Sharavin) claims there was very little snow below the bodies. He is persistent throughout the years.
2008: "The area that we found and where the fire was, is flat and slightly covered with snow."
2011: "And there was no snow under them!"
2013: "I claim that they were lying on the ground, there was very little snow."

What if there is anomaly and under the cedar the ground stays clear, then the tent could be directly pitched on the ground. This will explain why the hikers crossed the ravine and pitched the tent under the cedar, because there was very little snow. Then I won't find branches.

And what do you make out of his drawings how the bodies were laying, this is impossible. How do we choose what to believe and what to attribute to... you fill in the blanks.

[Teddy]

It is easy to see from the photo that there was very little snow on top of the bodies.



But how can we tell how much snow is under them?

Judging by the rest of the photos of the cedar in 1959 Shura and KAN think that there was this much snow, and they are right because you can't see the mighty roots of the cedar that are above ground in the 1959 photos.

[Axelrod]

If the counterfeiters were engaged in staging, then it is logical to imagine
that the place under the cedar tree in no way corresponds to the place of death.

For example, the death occurred 2 km from the cedar in another place, in the forest,
where there were a lot of fallen trees, and then the bodies were simply dragged to the cedar tree.

[Teddy]

If the counterfeiters were engaged in staging, then it is logical to imagine
that the place under the cedar tree in no way corresponds to the place of death.

For example, the death occurred 2 km from the cedar in another place, in the forest,
where there were a lot of fallen trees, and then the bodies were simply dragged to the cedar tree.

You are missing the point. There are more bodies still laying in the area, items, objects, debris, a lot of work on the trees, it is a camp site with remaining bodies.

[Axelrod]

From book 1079: we are giving you a chance to make up your own scenario before you find out what we think actually happened.

[Teddy]

From book 1079: we are giving you a chance to make up your own scenario before you find out what we think actually happened.

This is on page 4. Is this how far did you get with the book?

[GlennM]

What I struggle with in the fallen tree scenario is the lack of identifiable debris on the tent itself. In spite of their obvious injuries, no blood was reported found inside, nor outside the tent. In the book 1079, a very specific diagram of the victins under the branch is illustrated.  It is a good drawing. The tree branch appears to be a deciduous tree as opposed to a conifer.
The removal of the tent and bodies argues for conspiracy.  Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. To date, that evidence is lacking.

As a speculation, if for some reason, the ravine 4 could not be located, but the remaining 5 were found, wouldn't it make a better ruse if all 5 were posed headed for the tent on 1079. To have the two Yuri's posed in close proximity to a fallen tree seems a gross oversight when so much time and energy were spent in faking a camp on a mountainside a mile away. Being posed under the cedar just begs for people to look around, which is exactly what you do not want if you are going to hide a criminal incident.

[Teddy]

The diagram is not specific at all, how should we know what happened? This is an illustration.
The very specific thing about high velocity trauma is the lack of a single droplet of blood.
I have injuries like Dubinina and I had 0 blood on me, nada, zilch.

They were not posed. The staging was interrupted. This were not skilled serial killers. They panicked. They didn't know what they were doing because they have never done it before, and they were out of time.

GlennM, you are talking as if there is certainty in any of this. This is a speculation, I can't prove any of it.
But show me a theory where anyone can prove anything. At this point we speculate what might have happened. And I go every year trying to find supporting evidence for mine.

[Teddy]

As a speculation, if for some reason, the ravine 4 could not be located, but the remaining 5 were found, wouldn't it make a better ruse if all 5 were posed headed for the tent on 1079. To have the two Yuri's posed in close proximity to a fallen tree seems a gross oversight when so much time and energy were spent in faking a camp on a mountainside a mile away. Being posed under the cedar just begs for people to look around, which is exactly what you do not want if you are going to hide a criminal incident.

https://dyatlovpass.com/dead-cedar#questions

[Ziljoe]

The snow depth around the ceder certainly looks close to the ground. I don't think it would be even as high as Shura and KAN suggest , if the white string is to represent the snow level.

The ceder would have had smaller roots and circumference 56-57 years ago. I'm not sure if the hight of the branches change though but there would be growth.

In the original photos , the area doesn't look like it collects snow which is why the location might have been chosen. I suppose it depends if  the snow didn't gather there because of the shelter from the ceder trees or its because the wind actually blew any lying snow further into the forest.


The area around the ceder must have intialy made a good campsite or a good survival spot. This might have been because it didn't collect deep snow , if the hikers had already struggled through deep snow when coming from the slope to the forest then it makes sense to try and not sink into the snow, find wood and try to make shelter. If it was for pitching a tent, then there seems to be space, wood and a stream for water.

I was reading yesterday about the amount of snow that is needed to melt 1litre of water. It is a significant amount and does pose a problem to the logistics of time and resources. if Dyatlov was going carry on along the ridge the following day at some point the hikers would need wood for an open fire or running water. I don't even know if the tent stove would have some way or attachments to melt water? I've forgotten what the other sources of cooking wear? Was it alcohol stoves?

[Teddy]

Just wood. Another reason why night on the slope doesn't make sense. They had to carry wood and they didn't.
The guy with the wood in this trek is Dyatlov.
https://dyatlovpass.com/gallery-1958-Subpolar-Ural

[Ziljoe]

If they had no other way of cooking or melting water other than an open camp fire and the tent stove it certainly creates a problem. Without actually seeing the tent stove it's difficult to know how they cooked from it.

It's depicted as a cylinder shape but could be square/ rectangular I suppose but they would need wood . There are reports of some wood being found in the tent and some saying there was none.

Why didn't the stagers put some wood in the tent or hang the stove? If Dyatlov chose to camp there, why not take a bunch of wood like in the photos you linked to?

Iknow you don't have the answer other than the tent was never pitched there . I can only think they maybe intended to get wood after they pitched the tent. It's then that Something happened, or they were getting ready for the morning and had packed the stove after using it for the night.  It's so frustrating .

[Teddy]

The suspended inside the tent stove was never used for cooking, only to bring the temperature up in the tent (and burn some padded jackets).
They complained that it was very hot for whoever slept near the stove.



The cooking was done in a open pit with logs outside the tent. When I was in Northern Urals in the winter of 2019 some cross country skiers showed me.

[Ziljoe]

That's my problem with the tent stove, I can't see it being used for cooking or melting snow, not in the way that it would be needed to melt snow and feed 9 people anyway.

 I'm sure the problem about cooking and melt water has been discussed but I can't remember if someone suggested a solution. There's the single bowl/cup with left over porridge or hot chocolate if I remember and that's it.

[Teddy]

What is your question?
To melt snow they used pots.
https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-11-20#sheet20

[Ziljoe]

I know how to melt snow water! 

It's how Dyatlov intended to do it on the slope is my question.

You don't think the tent was there, so I don't think you can help....