Wonder If...

[MDGross]

Wonder if there’s no mystery at all. The hikers thought, and I emphasize thought, an avalanche was happening. Who wouldn’t be a bit paranoid? Stiff wind, blowing snow, nighttime – and inside a tent on a mountain slope. The hikers got out of the tent as quickly as possible, most of them with no coat, shoes, hat or gloves. Head for the forest and build a fire large enough to stay warm until morning. But that doesn’t work. So…they split into two groups (Yuri K. and Yuri D. are unable to walk). While one group of three starts back for the tent to retrieve warm clothes, the other four build a snow den. The three climbing the slope freeze to death. The other four had no way of knowing that part of their snow den was built over a tributary of a river. That part collapses and the four plunge onto rocks in the tributary, with two breaking ribs and a third fracturing his skull. As the weeks pass, their bodies are covered in many feet of snow. The weight of the snow exacerbates their injuries, breaking additional ribs and widening the skull fracture. Nine hikers fled the tent and nine hikers died from hypothermia or a sudden fall into a ravine and subsequent hypothermia or perhaps from the severity of their injuries. 

Wonder if…

[Ziljoe]

Without other evidence coming forward , it would seem the most likely scenario. Obviously we have the issue of the slope not being steep enough for a full avalanche but like you say and it's been said before, all they needed was to think there was going to be a avalanche.

 We know now that there are natural occuring avalanche's 700 meters away from the tent on 1079.  They hikers may not Have known exactly where they pitched their tent due to the maps at the time and low visibility at the time of erecting the tent.

We can assume there was fresh snow be ause of the footprints. This snow wasn't the hard snow that we see in the videos where footprints aren't left behind. It is the same when the searcher's arrive. It's hard crisp snow.

To stage footprints after the event raises a few questions? Why bother , there would be no need to stage them . I can't see why they would do it as it could lead to evidence that their was stagers.

If there was outsiders involved , I could only guess that they were for ed out of the tent and there was no following the hikers to the ravine.

[gunmat]

A good thought. I agree that the injuries could worsen after lying under 3.5 meters of wet snow before being found. The only problem is that one with severe head injuries, Rustem Slobodin, was found between Kolmogorova and Dyatlov on the way to the tent.

[Ziljoe]

Rustem Slobodin had a 60 mm x 1 mm fracture. There is a possibility that it is a fracture caused by the freezing of the brain fluids. This has been clinically evidenced in other deaths in similar conditions although it seems to be the internal base of the skull.

However , some have put forward that Rustem was wearing a hat and his neck was exposed, the neck would freeze first , then the expansion of  fluids could possibly cause the skull to fracture.

This is relatively new findings and there are  few examples but that's due to resources and the small number of victims. At the time of the autopsy in 1959 , they can only suggest falling on a stone.

[gunmat]

Do you have a reference on this, so post the link please.

[Ziljoe]

I did post the links before. Somewhere .....I'll have a look later. There's also academic people that speculate on the injuries but don't use Dyatlov pass sites or enter forums.

[gunmat]

good

[Ziljoe]

In the first instance

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27400253/

This is not the ideal example but it happens. ( I'm sure I have more some where. )

Rustem injury Is not reported as a depressed fracture . That suggests that it's not a hard blow, plus there's no reported swelling. This raises questions as to what type of impact caused it. I'm not sure if it's a cranial fracture, I think this is where the skull joins when we grow. I am not an expert but this may be an explanation as well as falling and/ or receiving a blow. Rustem was reported to have ice under the body which suggests that he was alive where he fell.

[Axelrod]

The hikers thought, and I emphasize thought, an avalanche was happening. Who wouldn’t be a bit paranoid? ....
Wonder if…

Why you are so sure? You were there? They wrote about Yeti, not about an avalanche...

[GlennM]

You were there?  Inappropriate, dont you think? Please edit your post. Appreciated.

[Axelrod]

I am not going to edit my post

[Ziljoe]

I think MDGross is correct to share his thoughts, MDGross has also speculated on every theory and shared good insight to pros and cons.

Without other evidence, we have little else to go on other than a natural event. Extreme weather, avalanche, ball lightning, storms , wind etc.

What must be taken in to consideration is the hikers perception at that moment in time. As for writing about a yeti. That is a humerus artical, written before whatever happened.

[gunmat]

"Thank you for the link. I've only read the abstract and it's not enough. Do you have the full article? It seems strange to me that the skull didn't open along the sutures if the expansion of soft tissue caused it to crack. The fracture goes through the frontal lobe, which is the most robust of all skull bones. I believe the autopsy reports need to be carefully read, something I will do when I have time, after getting them translated directly from Russian to Norwegian to avoid semantic issues when reading the reports via English. Slobodin had 'Hemorrhages in the temporal muscles', indicating external blows. I'm not an expert on head injuries. Nevertheless, I believe some conclusions can be drawn from examinations conducted by forensic experts."

[Ziljoe]

I think the full link exists, but it will take time to find. Much of this has been discussed before. Death by hypothermia causes many of the reported injuries found on the DP9. This includes, hemorrhages , marks on hand , legs etc. The fight for life continues even when limbs start to freeze. That includes crawling on hands and knees, falling , pushing the body to its extreme to survive. Hand dexterity will fail , that includes the ability to redo button's on pockets, to hold things etc.

[gunmat]

I believe that the best people to determine what causes what injuries are experts in emergency medicine. Some conclusions can be drawn by us ordinary people. They didn't walk into a rockery, but into loose snow. If you fall, you land on your palms, not with clenched fists. The bleeding in the left temporal muscle was not frostbite, but the result of a blow to the head. That blow could only have come from something hitting him on the head. It doesn't necessarily have to be evidence of an attack from someone else, but something hit him on the head.

[Ziljoe]

I don't entirely agree with your conclusions, I openly admit I could be wrong. Emergency medicine ( I don't fully understand) but there was no emergency medicine? It's the aftermath that is described in the autopsy. There is lose snow and hard snow . If you're hand are compromised, frozen or freezing, your hands do not open to to fall on your palms , they start to freeze, they become fists the wrist will freeze, mobility of all joints are compromised. We can see this in the photos of Dyatlov, Zina and Rustem. We can also see this in other hypothermia victims.

The reported bleeding has possible other explanations , hypothermia is a complex issue.

[MDGross]

Thanks for the kind words Ziljoe. And thanks GlennM for your post directed at Axelrod.

You somehow skipped over the key words in my post, Axelrod, which are "wonder if..." I don't know anything about this bizarre case with certainty and I've never claimed that I did. I offer educated guesses and speculation on this forum like most other posters.

I think about these nine courageous and young men and women almost every day. So, yes, I'm there with them. At least in my mind.

[gunmat]

To Ziljoe :Emergency medicine is a Norwegian term that encompasses physicians who specialize in injuries resulting from accidents or inflicted violence. Post mortem images show nothing. It is natural to close the hand when freezing. It is also a completely natural reflex to cushion the fall with the palm when falling, rather than with a clenched fist. One does not need movable fingers to cushion the fall with the inside of the hand. I will delve into this more thoroughly after having the autopsy reports translated into my native language directly from Russian. All cases are as complex as we make them out to be.

[Ziljoe]

The photos of how the bodies were found does back up freezing in the cold. I think it's termed the boxer postion as in Igor. The bodies were found 3 weeks after death so Im not sure where "emergency medicine" comes in. This may be a translation issue.

When alive but suffering the conditions of freezing, I would argue that the palm , up to certain point., Can not be used . The dexterity has gone.

Death by hypothermia is complex and the data and observations are only coming to light now. Perhaps we have to look at data from now going backwards.

[Ziljoe]

Gunmat. I have supplied examples. This is an incident that happened in the UK.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cairngorm_Plateau_disaster

Edging closer and without reference points in the whiteout, they realised that they had got very close to a person on her hands and knees. Davidson was still up on the plateau and trying to crawl for help. Two crew were unloaded 64 metres (70 yd) away, the closest they could manage. Then, they reached the casualty but could not carry her to the helicopter because her legs were locked in a kneeling position. The helicopter could get no closer because when it applied power, the blowing snow obliterated vision and so one of the crew jumped out to lead it in the right direction by using the winch wire. There was no sign of anyone else from Davidson's group. Davidson was taken by helicopter to Aviemore, where she was met by ambulance. She was in the advanced stages of hypothermia and her hands were frozen solid, but although she was confused and barely able to speak, she managed to let her rescuers know that the rest of the party was close to where she had been rescued.[50] She could say only the words "Burn – lochan – buried" to rescuer Brian Hall, but that gave sufficient clues.[51]

https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=1507.msg24041#msg24041

[gunmat]

Thanks for the links, will get back to it alter when I have my translated autopsy reports..

[eurocentric]

Wonder if there’s no mystery at all. The hikers thought, and I emphasize thought, an avalanche was happening. Who wouldn’t be a bit paranoid? Stiff wind, blowing snow, nighttime – and inside a tent on a mountain slope. The hikers got out of the tent as quickly as possible, most of them with no coat, shoes, hat or gloves. Head for the forest and build a fire large enough to stay warm until morning. But that doesn’t work. So…they split into two groups (Yuri K. and Yuri D. are unable to walk). While one group of three starts back for the tent to retrieve warm clothes, the other four build a snow den. The three climbing the slope freeze to death. The other four had no way of knowing that part of their snow den was built over a tributary of a river. That part collapses and the four plunge onto rocks in the tributary, with two breaking ribs and a third fracturing his skull. As the weeks pass, their bodies are covered in many feet of snow. The weight of the snow exacerbates their injuries, breaking additional ribs and widening the skull fracture. Nine hikers fled the tent and nine hikers died from hypothermia or a sudden fall into a ravine and subsequent hypothermia or perhaps from the severity of their injuries. 

Wonder if…

It would need a bit of refinement. They rush out of the tent, their footprints later covered by freshly fallen snow, and those found belonging to nosy Mansi/geologists/loggers who inspect the abandoned tent, and they couldn't find their way back to a partially submerged, snow-covered tent in the dark, even with torches, and only have a limited time they can spend doing so before heading to the forest at the mercy of the elements.

Maybe more than one snow den would need to be made, and perhaps it would have to be to eventually house 7 people, and this second one collapsed, because the one found appeared to be some distance away from the ravine, and the floor of 'seats' appeared intact.

I've always thought some of the chest fractures were caused after death. Unless the pathologist tested them all he could not say they all occurred before death, only that the small number he sampled, possibly singular, did so. With Semyon found laid on his right side it's easy to imagine how he may have sustained some injuries during a fall, perhaps when being skittled by the rising wind, and then subsequently the increasing weight of drifted and falling snow breaks additional ribs when pressing down on the floor of the ravine. But it could then be argued why didn't this happen to all four.

I've sometimes wondered if they heard cracking sounds across the slope as the mountain froze up again at night, but I am speculating that is even audible there, even when placing yourself inside a stethoscopic trench. But geologically it's clear that meltwater and moisture getting into fissures in rocks during the day splits them as they freeze at night, this explaining the screed of loose rock covering much of the mountain's surface and especially the peak, as seen in summer, and possibly making it more barren than most. If you were laid there and already anxious about the tent siting and then you hear noises in the dark you might be spooked enough to be out with your torches convinced something was about to happen.

[Partorg]

all they needed was to think there was going to be a avalanche.

Completely excluded. Out of fear alone, no one will throw a tent and go into the forest bare-assed. If there were concerns, they would not have put up a tent in this place, and if concerns had arisen later, they would have moved it to another place. That's all.
It is also wisest to abandon the idea of ​​«staging» once and for all. Government agencies do not have the slightest sense in acting by guerrilla methods, and private villains would simply be  just be too lazy to engage in a staged event thought out to the utmost detail. “Vlom” as our gangsters say.

[Ziljoe]

Sorry Partorg. I may not have explained myself well. I was thinking that there might have been some sort of fresh snow collapse, relatively insignificant in hind sight because we know there can not be an "avalanche" at that location.

I'm only musing the thought of the hikers perception of a small collapse of snow and how they interpreted that possible event. If they did not know exactly where they pitched the tent in low visibility, they "may"  have thought it's better to move away in case worse was to come. They were correct in where they pitched the tent for safety, it's just if doubt came in.

It is the best I can think of regarding motivation to cut the tent and move away.

I agree that it's too perfect for it to be staged, if there was staging it would be easier to have the tent destroyed and equipment out with the tent and to locate the tent directly under 1079.

They are only thoughts. I welcome your thoughts? .

[Partorg]

I was thinking that there might have been some sort of fresh snow collapse, relatively insignificant in hind sight because we know there can not be an "avalanche" at that location.

Nobody talks about the avalanche that sweeps away trains But if your tent and everything in it are under 2 - 2.5 feet of  snow, flowing like sugar and you see that it is not possible to dig it empty-handed out within 30 - 40 minutes, while feeling the wind blowing through your sweater like gauzethen, the idea go into the forest lighting a fire waiting for the wind to subside, and then returning to the excavations mai seem the only correct. Although, of course, it is not a fact that it will really be like that correct but this is not at all the same as throw down the tent and going into the forest because of the mere fear of a possible avalanche. That’s what we’re talking about.

I believe that the best people to determine what causes what injuries are experts in emergency medicine.

Agree a little more than completely.
I have always said that about the ability of injured people to perform certain actions, you should ask not forensics, but trauma surgeons because they receive this information first-hand.

If you fall, you land on your palms, not with clenched fists.

Don't agree. Even at a temperature ≈ of 0°C and with a slight wind, the joints of the fingers quickly lose mobility and clenched fist opens with great difficulty.
All five of those found in February-March had frostbite of the fingers of III – IV degrees. So they most likely fell and got up using fists.

The question of the location of the crack on Slobodin’s head deserves separate study. From a careful reading of the descriptive part of the Certificate of Forensic Medical Examination of the Corpse, it follows that an error was probably made in the “Conclusion” since a crack 6 cm long, not reaching the sagittal suture by only 1.5 cm, could be located not on the left frontal (as written in the "Conclusion") but on the left parietal bone
This is all the more likely because the frontal bone is unpaired and there is no LEFT frontal bone.

[Ziljoe]

Partorg', I also agree there is no avalanche that sweeps away trains. This is not what I put forward. I put forward that there was a small collapse of fresh snow but the hikers made the decision to leave the area incase of a hypothetical avalanche, as in worse was to come , in their minds. The truth was , nothing worse was to happen, there was never going to be an avalanche but that is irrelevant if the hikers thought they were in a dangerous place.

Even if there is a small fall or collapse of fresh snow , they should be able to adjust and get equipment or regain the resources.  I would argue that they thought it was more dangerous to dig out equipment than to go to the forest. The decision to go to the forest would be more effort than to dig the tent out for clothes etc.  On balance, why walk 1.5 KM to make snow shelters , fire etc. When you can dig out the tent and some of its resources?.

I don't mean to argue in a negative way. Please forgive me. I think they felt a threat, that threat was there was worse to come.

[Partorg]

You are wrong.
But convincing anyone of what is completely obvious to me is not part and of my plans either.
Everything is 😉👌

[Ziljoe]

I certainly don't think I am right. 🤗

[Partorg]

Won’t even risk challenging this statement. ))
Although in principle  to argue is possible and in a constructive way.

[gunmat]

The autopsy reports are one of the most important documents in this case, because they describe what is actually observed, and are not altered by memory. On March 8, 1959, the autopsy was conducted by Dr. B.A. VOZROZHDENNIY. After reading the report in my own native language, the brutality becomes closer and some details become clearer.
--
The frontal bone is cracked on the left side, and there were bleedings in both the right and left temporal muscles. The crack starts at the injured left temporal muscle and extends 6 centimeters diagonally upward and forward. It is consistent with the head having been positioned with the right side against a stable solid surface, and receiving a strong impact from a blunt object on the left side, partially over the temporal bone and partially over the frontal bone. The force has caused the frontal bone to crack.
--
The report appears very thorough, but in the conclusion, it devolves into speculation. This is a strange dissonance in such a thorough report : “The fracture of the left frontal lobe bone could have occurred during a fall by Slobodin or the impact of the head on a hard object such as rocks, ice, etc. A blunt object caused the above-mentioned trauma.”
--
If we assume the official story, Kolmogorova, Slobodin, and Dyatlov leave from the cedar tree and head towards the tent where they freeze to death. This route does not pass through a scree with running water, which could create ice blocks in the snow. There is only loose snow on the ground along the route they may have taken. However, Teddy and others can, of course, document this with pictures. The idea that Slobodin would fall and hit one side of his head against a stone or ice, and then fall to the other side and experience the same, seems highly speculative. Especially since the external head injuries are found in exactly the same place on the opposite side. The head rested against something solid while being struck on the other side by a blunt object.