Questions on Lyuda's body position

[amashilu]

Ziljoe writes:  With the extent of the broken ribs , I don't think anyone would be moving them, it is most likely that how ever these injuries were sustained, it was in/at the ravine.

I agree. This has to be the site of at least Lyuda's death -- and probably the other three. After Lyuda's heart injury, she died within minutes.

What interests me is her body position. How did she get in this position?

1) Her ribs were broken when she was lying down at the stream and one of them pierced her heart. Then she "got up" and kneeled against the ledge with her arms up.

2) She was already kneeling there when her ribs were broken and one pierced her heart and she just died like that.

3) She was injured and died elsewhere (even just feet away), then someone dragged her by the armpits to the ledge and positioned her body against it, with the arms up. (As improbable as this seems, several other hikers have their arms up, as if they had been dragged.)

4) Other possibilities?

When you die, your muscles go limp. Why did her arms stay up on the ledge? Her right arm in particular is in a position that would need some tone in the shoulder to maintain its location. Wouldn't her arms have immediately gone limp and fallen back? I'm sure her arms could have stayed up after her body froze, but what about immediately after death?

[Ziljoe]

Good questions amashilu and something to think about.

How  could her body be in that position, if dead and placed by the other hikers or outsiders , how on earth did her arms not drop down to her sides?

It's actually a great question and worthy of debate.

[GlennM]

Slid down or dragged up?

[Ziljoe]

Slid down or dragged up?

 If they were in a snow cave/hole formed over the ravine , could they be pulling Lynda up into the cave and that's when it collapsed? Or had Lyuda fallen through a snow bridge/ cornice and they are trying to help her out ?

The position is unusual if placed there and it doesn't fit with the body being moved with water thawing.

It looks like the body lies where the tradgedy happened, although that may not be a popular idea. 

[amashilu]

Try it yourself, as best you can. For example, I put myself in roughly the same position as Lyuda, and can feel the muscle tone that is holding my arms up. Then imagining my heart being stabbed while I am in this position, it seems like my arms would immediately drop and I would fall sideways. The only thing that makes sense is if she died, then some time later, someone else put her in this position, and rigor mortis and freezing set in, to keep her upright like this.

From another forum:
" ...Tumanov said Dubinina died while lying on back, and that was consistent with rigor mortis on her body - what in turn was inconsistent with how she was found. So the conclusion was she was repositioned after a death, and it happened more than 24 hours after it .....The way she looks as if she collapsed in that position doesn't line up with her chest cavity broken. It would be almost impossible to lift your arms up like that unless she received her injuries while standing."

[Ziljoe]

The explanation I can think of is a collapse of snow from above, and then being entombed in that position.

Zolo and Lyuda are not in a position that would suggest the others were trying to help them or make them comfortable with regards to their injuries. Both of their fractures are on the side of the body that is closest to the solid ground. Zolo , if Alive after his fractures wouldn't lie on that side.

Then we have the puzzle of if it was outsiders , why would they even bother to place Lyuda in that position, why would outsiders place those bodies in an empty ravine ? What's the motive to even bother?

It's why I think the injuries happened there .

[amashilu]

Then we have the puzzle of if it was outsiders , why would they even bother to place Lyuda in that position, why would outsiders place those bodies in an empty ravine ? What's the motive to even bother?

I had the same thought. Assuming Lyuda died on her back, as Tumanov says, it means someone else was there, who respectfully lifted her into this position. I don't think it could have been one of the other 3 who also died in the ravine because they were too seriously injured themselves. The two Yuris also look like they were dragged and repositioned and their arms froze in the "dragged" position. Who was doing this?

[Axelrod]

About cadaveric spots. This theory is similar to the theory of preservation and spoilage of meat within 2 days (48 hours).
If meat is placed in the refrigerator, then the meat can be stored for several months and will not spoil.

Askinadzi found Dubinina's body on the evening of May 4, 1959. The body was moved away from the snow and then apparently lay on its back on the bank of a stream. During this period, cadaveric spots on the back were formed (on the night of May 4-5).

The rest of the bodies (Zolotaryov, Kolevatov, Thibeaux-Brignolls) remained untouched until the prosecutor's arrival.
They were lying on their right side (as on photo), so their cadaveric spots are on the right side of bodies.

[Ziljoe]

Then we have the puzzle of if it was outsiders , why would they even bother to place Lyuda in that position, why would outsiders place those bodies in an empty ravine ? What's the motive to even bother?

I had the same thought. Assuming Lyuda died on her back, as Tumanov says, it means someone else was there, who respectfully lifted her into this position. I don't think it could have been one of the other 3 who also died in the ravine because they were too seriously injured themselves. The two Yuris also look like they were dragged and repositioned and their arms froze in the "dragged" position. Who was doing this?

That's the million dollar question!

I try to work a model or sequence of events as we all do .

I think these  injuries happened in the ravine. The burns and the half wool jumper on Lyuda are a bit of a confusion. I don't think that was done at the tent and I don't think outsiders or stagers would do such a pointless thing.

That is an attempt to survive against the cold in my opinion . But who's jumper and why destroy a good jumper that could heat the body core ?

So logically, with the cut clothes at the ceder it would seem to have been done there.it is extremely bizzare and difficult to make it all fit.

[GlennM]

If she were pulled up, I think it is so that she may be found. This would be done before freezing, but after death. It makes little sense to position her in a stream. Could it be that those who posed her were out of strength themselves? On the other hand, If she slid down then there must have been something catching her coat which prevented her not sliding further. Too, I would expect her hands would be gripping rock. Did they?

[GlennM]

Askinadzi found Dubinina's body on the evening of May 4, 1959. The body was moved away from the snow and then apparently lay on its back on the bank of a stream. During this period, cadaveric spots on the back were formed (on the night of May 4-5).

Help me out here. Dubinina was found face down in a stream frozen. They, the rescuers, turned her on her back with that ruined face toward the sun. They discover cadaveric spots forming. How? She is frozen in her clothes, she is contorted and disfigured. Who is going to look for cadaveric spots on a frozen corpse in the bottom of the creek bed? There are fifty other things I would be doing before lifting the dead girl's clothes to look for spots. Any insight would be appreciated.

[amashilu]

They discover cadaveric spots forming. How? She is frozen in her clothes, she is contorted and disfigured. Who is going to look for cadaveric spots on a frozen corpse in the bottom of the creek bed? There are fifty other things I would be doing before lifting the dead girl's clothes to look for spots. Any insight would be appreciated.

That does sound interesting. Can you quote where you found this? I don't remember reading anything that says the people who found her body turned her over and discovered cadaveric spots forming. Thanks. The only thing I've seen about this kind of thing is from her autopsy:

"The post mortem lividity is of bluish grey color, particularly on the posterior and lateral surface of neck, body and extremities."

[Arjan]

See for additional analysis the series of my posts: 'Last two days of the Dyatlov group' and specifically: '5 fatal afternoon for Zinaida and Rustem' ( https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=1558.msg24110#msg24110 )

According to my analysis of the details found by the two search parties and the post mortem reports, it is quite possible that:

1. Zinaida and Rustem have found the body of Lyudmila lying on her back. Her body had already post mortem rigidity and cadaveric spots, because she had lost 'consciousness for the last time' some 16 hours earlier (on the afternoon before when other group members had erected the tent) after being hit by a pressure wave while standing in the ravine. Explanation: Lyudmila, Semyon and Thibo had been fetching running water in the ravine for the foreseen cold night.
2. Due to refrosting of the ravine, Zinaida and Rustem had not been able to lift Lyudmila from the ravine, because the surface of the ravine had been icy.
3. Zinaida and Rustem had intended to place Lyudmila next to - and alongside - the three other bodies near the water stream in the ravine, in order that the body may be found by later rescue parties to be buried elsewhere.

If so, it is obvious that Zinaida and Rustem had not succeeded: they had left the body rigid body - by rigor mortis - upright in the stream with the purpose to be found later by rescue parties.

[GlennM]

Amashilu, I got the quote from Axelrod's post in this thread. GlennM

[amashilu]

Aha,  Glenn, I see what you mean.

[GlennM]

Explanation: Lyudmila, Semyon and Thibo had been fetching running water in the ravine for the foreseen cold night.

I honestly can not imagine the possibility of four people committing to a one mile round trip, half of which is uphill for the purpose of fetching water. Nor can I support the idea of them doing the same for firewood. As I understand it, the whole point of staying at elevation and cold camping was to expedite the rounding of Ortoten. Igor would be a poor team leader to require that exertion from his team when they could have brought firewood if they wished.

I strugggle with any scenario that splits the team in less than an extreme. Water and wood do not work for me. Footprint evidence supports the idea they all left the tent together. Why, is the big question. I like the idea that a crush of snow compromised the tent and hikers within. I also like the idea that when they left the tent, they knew the direction, but misjudged the distance to the woods. For me, darkness, whiteout and/or fog worked against them. They got cold and tired and all the rest subsequently happened.

[Axelrod]

See for additional analysis the series of my posts: 'Last two days of the Dyatlov group' and specifically: '5 fatal afternoon for Zinaida and Rustem' ( https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=1558.msg24110#msg24110 )

According to my analysis of the details found by the two search parties and the post mortem reports, it is quite possible that:

1. Zinaida and Rustem have found the body of Lyudmila lying on her back. Her body had already post mortem rigidity and cadaveric spots, because she had lost 'consciousness for the last time' some 16 hours earlier (on the afternoon before when other group members had erected the tent) after being hit by a pressure wave while standing in the ravine. Explanation: Lyudmila, Semyon and Thibo had been fetching running water in the ravine for the foreseen cold night.
2. Due to refrosting of the ravine, Zinaida and Rustem had not been able to lift Lyudmila from the ravine, because the surface of the ravine had been icy.
3. Zinaida and Rustem had intended to place Lyudmila next to - and alongside - the three other bodies near the water stream in the ravine, in order that the body may be found by later rescue parties to be buried elsewhere.

If so, it is obvious that Zinaida and Rustem had not succeeded: they had left the body rigid body - by rigor mortis - upright in the stream with the purpose to be found later by rescue parties.

I don't understand why I need to analyze these posts.
You have to imagine that everything in these messages is wrong, absolutely everything.
And then it will be easier to live if there are no such unnecessary ideas.

Sasha Kahn in his message about tongue reports that Lyuda has been moved onto her back. Askinadzi will tell you better.

[Ziljoe]

Having been forced to juggle a few thoughts , I trying to think of as many scenarios as possible .

If we let ourselves assume that the broken ribs happened in or around the ravine.

1) Lyuda has self administrated her own body in that position. Reasons being the nature of the fractures means she can't lie on her back as the pressure is on the lungs , she can't lie on her front for the same reason. The only comfortable position that allows breathing is an upward stance with arms raised to take away weight off the body and leaning too far into the shelf whilst steadying  the upper torso without using core muscles.

[amashilu]

Lyuda has self administrated her own body in that position. Reasons being the nature of the fractures means she can't lie on her back as the pressure is on the lungs , she can't lie on her front for the same reason. The only comfortable position that allows breathing is an upward stance with arms raised to take away weight off the body and leaning too far into the shelf whilst steadying  the upper torso without using core muscles.

I remember reading that some medical expert (sorry I forgot who) said that the nature of her injuries were such that they had to have occurred while she was lying on her back (as Zolo's were while lying on his side). She then died in that position and the lividity spots were subsequently on the back or posterior, as she died in that position shortly after being struck.

[Ziljoe]

Lyuda has self administrated her own body in that position. Reasons being the nature of the fractures means she can't lie on her back as the pressure is on the lungs , she can't lie on her front for the same reason. The only comfortable position that allows breathing is an upward stance with arms raised to take away weight off the body and leaning too far into the shelf whilst steadying  the upper torso without using core muscles.

I remember reading that some medical expert (sorry I forgot who) said that the nature of her injuries were such that they had to have occurred while she was lying on her back (as Zolo's were while lying on his side). She then died in that position and the lividity spots were subsequently on the back or posterior, as she died in that position shortly after being struck.

I can't say I disagree , I'm just trying to work all hypothetical models of what might have happened. ( I forget all the experts names too).

The body position is odd if we suspect placement by outsiders or by the team members. There's no need for outsiders to place her over a ledge, and or, if her friends were still physically active and helping , why would they leave her in that position?.

It's why I suggest a) that whatever caused the rib fractures Lyuda moved her own body to that position because that would potentially give her the most relief. B) the injury/fractures happened at that very spot where she lies. ( Snow collapse/ cornice / falling through a snow bridge).

I know this is not exact but I only put it forward as we are all stuck , it mind make someone have a eureka moment.?

[GlennM]

Too, she and others were excavated from deep snow. A crushing depth of snow perhaps?
But you know, the more I look at her photo, the more I think she should have slipped all the way down and come to rest flat out with her face on the ground. To die in that posture and then be covered with bone crushing snow is a testament to an indifferent Nature.