About dry cedar

[Osi]

If the windward side of the trees is facing north; Moss and decay and subsequent drying of the branches will be expected. Our cedar tree is the most majestic tree on the forest border and weathers the wind. The winds blow from the tent in the south direction. The north-facing side of our cedar has dried out and is ideal for firewood. I also hope the northern roots are exposed due to erosion. These are ideal conditions for the north side to dry out. What I want to achieve is; It excludes opening a window in the tree to spy on the tent or spy on someone. There is no reason for Yuri to bite his finger out of fear.

[Ziljoe]

Hi Osi.

I will try and help if I can. From what I remember here and from reading by other authors .

Yes it has been suggested that these branches would be the most useful, to start a fire at least. Dryer than branches on the ground and perhaps some sap too. The suggestion that it was made as window was just pure speculation by one of the searchers/ investigators , other authors then try to fit this window into their theories, which is fair enough but I suspect that the most logical answer would be that these dryer branches ,higher up the tree, just happened to be the easiest to break off .

What we do know is someone definitely broke the branches and made a fire, given the evidence we have , it was most likely the hikers . It is a logical assumption with the information that we have , a poor fire was started that couldn't be maintained, this suggests an effort for survival . It was also reported that the Yuri's lay on top of some of the fir of these broken branches, for insulation perhaps ?, Also there are reports of some of the broken branches from higher up the tree not reaching the ground but being stuck on the lower branches of the ceder.

It was also reported that there was plenty of wood on the ground, but from a personal view, I don't think that wood would be easy to start a fire with.  If you don't have suitable tinder , axes or knifes , then using the resources of dry ceder branches makes sense.

The biting of the hand out of fear or to stop Yuri from shouting is just speculation and other people's interpretation of possible events. Others have suggested it may be to try and regain feeling in his hands or an involuntary reaction from chattering teeth from the cold.

Personally I think that the ceder was chosen for it's resources for a fire but I can't decide if the den or ceder was chosen first for survival.

Hope that helps.

[Axelrod]

In early autumn I took a photo of a tree on the ridge of a mountain on a hiking route (there were traces of a fire next to it).

[GlennM]

Ziljoe questions whether the den or the cedar was the first priority for the hikers. If heat was the issue, do we find remnants of a firepit in the ravine? If shelter was the priority would a single tree suffice for nine people? I think it true that in blowing snow, the cedar would be easier to attain. The ravine, especially if a cornice existed might be a trap if visibility was reduced by snow, fog and darkness.

Another approach might be to ask if the cedar was first, would it be logical to seek out the ravine next? Alternately, if the ravine was settled first, would they leave it for what the cedar could provide? 

What seems probable, given the physical findings at either place?

[Ziljoe]

Thanks Glenn,

We have the two locations, the ceder and the ravine with the den. We know activity took place at both these locations and in-between by the trail of clothes and the cuts of the smaller trees that were made for what we assume to be the floor of a den.

To make flooring for insulation makes perfect sense , to make a fire makes sense, to risk breaking branches up a tree for dry wood makes a bit of sense too although there is a risk of falling a couple of meters .

When moving the body temperature can be raised and help prevent hypothermia, the rule of thumb I believe is , movement, then shelter then fire but it all depends on the circumstances weather etc.

The ravine has two resources, water and the potential of shelter. This shelter could be digging into a snow drift/ cornice or snow bridge/cave . The branches could have been used for flooring and a roof , the roof could be construed by placing the branches then the fir from the ceder and covering with snow. They just didn't get that far.Obviously I don't know if that was the intended plan but in basic observation , all the activity suggests the basic attempt to build something .

I can't for the life of me come up with the reason of the ripped/ cut clothes from the two Yuri's. If they were taking bits of trousers , why not take the shirts too , why was some clothing dropped?  If the Yuri's were failing and suffering from the cold , then why not build the shelter there with a fire or were they laid there on top of fir next to fire whilst they looked for a suitable snow drift to build a shelter, came back and the Yuri's were too far gone .

 I know these are obvious questions but even with the freedom of imagination, I can't figure it out. If the two at the ceder had the broken ribs and their clothes removed , then that would make a bit of sense , they're dead take clothes and move on to make the shelter /den? .

About the burns on the Yuri's and light burns on others and their clothes got me thinking.( As always). I know chemical burns had been suggested before and perhaps a reason to leave the tent, we have the suggestion of cinema film catching fire and gasing them out . It's the burns on Yuri's leg and hand that is so confusing.

[GlennM]

Ziljoe, can we consider that the Yuri's were transported and placed at the cedar after death? Of course, it is pretty direct to believe they succumbed at the cedar, perhaps from doing a risky climb for wood and falling. But, if they died elsewhere,  being laid out under the cedar would make their recovery easy. This raises another question. When were they undressed? A frozen body will have clothes cut away, a pliable body will be undressed.  While the Yuris bodies were attanded to, perhaps a fire was lit for the others at the tree. The frozen posture of each gives a clue to when each solidified. I would believe that if the bodies were pliable, each would be similarly posed.The more contorted the body, the better the better the chance it was brought to the tree.

If the whole group made for the ravine first and the Yuri's met their fate there and not at the tree then moving them to the tree would certainly some make sense at the cost of calories.

Supposing that they died first, it is a mystery to me why Igor, Rustem and Zina made for the tent again. If they could not take supplies initially, how were they going to do anything after going that distance uphill in their depleted state? I can only asssume that if they regained the tent, they get to skis.

[Ziljoe]

Good questions Glennm.

The Yuri's look like they were placed and their bodies pliable. I wouldn't think Yuri Doroshenko would be left in a short shirt by his friends when alive on the way to the ceder, I'm sure they would have shared clothes , so I suspect his top or one of the jumpers was removed. I just don't understand why they didn't take the shirts too.

Intially I thought that the trousers and leggings may have been ripped by going up and down the tree trunk. This might have been the case and then bits were just cut and ripped off for some sort of seating. I still wonder if the did fall into a ravine as a group, got wet in bits of the stream and then HAD to make a fire and take wet clothes off.

Using calories would keep them warm but I don't think it would be possible to move or drag bodies any great distance as the depth of the snow in some places would make it next to impossible.

I also juggle withe the idea that they were trying to melt snow , in their  clothes or cut off garment s , like they desperately needed water . I know that sounds strange but what doesn't. If they got a fire started , then that's half the battle, all they needed was wood that was lying on the ground and we have a fallen ceder not far away that would have vertical branches that should be dryish too.

The reason for trying to regain the tent again is because the danger or reason for leaving is gone, daylight , so they can dig out their supplies, poison or toxins gone?  There was now no other option? .

With the talk about uranium I got googling and ended up looking at white phosphorus. Looking at uses I saw that it's used in fireworks and distress flares. I'm sure one of the hikers was into making rockets and fireworks, it's quite unstable and let's of toxic smoke.

White phosphorus particles may cause corneal burns and perforation. Exposure to the smoke from burning phosphorus may cause ocular irritation, blepharospasm, photophobia, lacrimation and conjunctivitis?.

It gets as bad when inhaled . Thurst being one . Also, it glows in the dark, whether that's a link to the alleged glowing clothes is a wild leap perhaps . I wonder if they were preparing a fire work, I believe one of the cameras was mounted to a tripod when found ( this could be wrong).  Accidental ignition whilst trying to prepare a fire work? Or  a distress flare in the tent would be enough to cause  harm to lungs , eyes, etc. Cut the tent and look for water?

Also easy enough for a stranger to cut a hole and through one in?

[GlennM]

Źiljoe, if phosphorus is the culprit,  leaving the tent may get them to running water, but they would probably use snow for immediate pain relief. It always comes back to the how and why leaving the tent was necessary. The footprints indicate something of the how. It was relatively orderly and unhurried. If so, then then the why of things is explained by assuming what was wrong couldn't be fixed at the moment, but it could be attended to in time. For me this suggests that the problem facing them was both too much to handle and they were ill equipped to address it at the time. Following this reasoning, phosphorous, a flamable film cannister, animal intrusion or slab slide all will work because they are all temporary and may or may not leave significant debris for we investigators. That said, any of those conditions would not prevent Igor et.al. to try to get back to the tent.

I believe your idea of the group sliding into the ravine and getting soaked isn't out of the question. When Igor tried to regain the tent, surely, the Yuri's had expired as evidenced by the distribution of  clothing.

[Ziljoe]

My thinking , and it's an early stage of experimental thoughts, is that there's two main reactions to the phosphor. That's the ignition and burning then the release of the smoke / gas. There's also the inhalation?.

I don't think snow would  rectify the damage. But if water, not snow, is the assumed remedy, then perhaps running water was the goal in an emergency case? . The possibility of inhaling these fumes is quite serious and affect vision , with no rinsing fluids, what do you do? . Vision is impaired, smoke is still in the air?

It's just a thoughts...

It's possible that Igor , zina and Slobidin survived long enough to try to return. ?.

[GlennM]

If the hikers carried phosphorous, it would be more useful as a fire starter than a firework. If that material were mishandled in the tent, that would be reason enough to evacuate by any expedient means. I would suppose that group might have has a friend in the chemistry lab who got them a vial of the stuff in oil. If that vial broke at an inopportune time, that would be an emergency.

Can we attribute any of the pre mortem injuries to chemical burns? I am guessing that changes in the eyes and lungs might be noted in autopsy.

If this thread about the dry side of the cedar plays into the discussion here, then I would argue that phosphorous might be used, but  it would be effective in igniting some of the wetter stuff too.

[Ziljoe]

The firework concept only comes from my thoughts about the hikers trying to take a night-time photo of a firework or rocket and it is this that goes wrong. Only a thought. I don't think they would have carried unstable phosphorus but you never know..

Anyway , I suppose that a signal flare could have been used at the ceder ? Either for light to see ,a fire starter or its intended use , to signal for help?

It would seem flares are dangerous things to this day, especially if out of date or misused. If hand held they can go wrong , spitting phosphorus and even exploding in the container that the hand is holding.

The ceder branches still seem the sensible option to at least start a fire and that's what we have at the end of the day. A burnt out fire from ceder branches and the Yuri's lying on the fir branches with various charred socks, handkerchief, clothing and some money in the snow .