December 21, 2024, 09:32:22 PM
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Author Topic: Temperature and Wind Chill -- No Chance To Survive For An Hour Or Longer  (Read 1172 times)

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December 05, 2024, 02:54:24 PM
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MDGross



A chart from the American National Weather Service, weather.gov/bou/windchill, indicates that at -20°F with the wind blowing 20mph, a person wearing a coat, shoes, etc. will feel the first signs of hypothermia in 10 minutes or less. Most of the hikers were critically underdressed and walking in snow. I don't believe they could have even made it to the forest without freezing to death in the extreme conditions that night. The logical conclusion being that they camped on their last night in the forest. That rules out an avalanche, snow slip, katabatic winds and infrasound. It doesn't rule out a tree falling on the tent, carbon monoxide poisoning or intervention from a third party. Of course, the question remains, who moved the tent to the mountain slope and why?



 

December 05, 2024, 03:28:35 PM
Reply #1
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GlennM


If a tree fell on the tent in the woods, the damage to the tent should be abundantly evident. Further, if the tent was pitched in the forest, there should have been time and proximity to allow them to salvage it before running off to the ravine.The tent could have been cut for ponchos.

My feeling is that your comment on the effects of cold are certainly valid. Who could walk that far dressed as they were in those temperatures? It appears they did.

There is nothing to suggest they were chased nor lured out of the tent on 1079. There is a lot of speculation which is defended by logically constructed conspiracy theories. The same is true about the tent being moved from the forest to the slope.

Whatever caused their plight was transient. That comes down to wind and weather. If they were at 1079, as I believe, why they did not shelter at boot rock or make for the labaz is only explainable if they couldn't see where they were going in a blizzard. On the other hand, following the slope downhill to the forest is easier.
We don't have to say everything that comes into our head.
 

December 05, 2024, 10:44:09 PM
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Ziljoe



A chart from the American National Weather Service, weather.gov/bou/windchill, indicates that at -20°F with the wind blowing 20mph, a person wearing a coat, shoes, etc. will feel the first signs of hypothermia in 10 minutes or less. Most of the hikers were critically underdressed and walking in snow. I don't believe they could have even made it to the forest without freezing to death in the extreme conditions that night. The logical conclusion being that they camped on their last night in the forest. That rules out an avalanche, snow slip, katabatic winds and infrasound. It doesn't rule out a tree falling on the tent, carbon monoxide poisoning or intervention from a third party. Of course, the question remains, who moved the tent to the mountain slope and why?

The American National Weather Service is not a knowledge based authority on hypothermia. There are a number of variables that come in to play. We also don't know the temperature and wind on the night of the incident, what we can assess is the nature of the raised foot prints , they require a unique set of circumstances.

https://gizmodo.com/raised-footprints-when-snow-steps-up-473092187


A few photos in this link. https://www.amusingplanet.com/2013/04/raised-footprints-in-snow.html#:~:text=Raised%20snow%20footprints%20can%20last,slopes%2C%20as%20potential%20avalanche%20danger.

It says

" Raised snow footprints can last quite a while before all traces of the footprints are eroded away.

Because it requires more than a gale to blow away snow, raised footprints are often taken as an indicator of windslab and in mountain slopes, as potential avalanche danger.
"

https://epod.usra.edu/blog/2015/03/raised-footprints-in-snow.html

"Special circumstances must occur before this phenomenon can be observed. To begin with, the snow has to have a firm layer beneath it, such as the frozen lens of ice and snow laid down the week before the photo was snapped. Then, a layer of light snow must fall atop this frozen layer. We had a snowfall of several centimeters the day before I noticed the tracks."


It is also reported that there were 2 types of snow prints found. Where they raised footprints stopped, footprints were found where the opposite occurred, the prints had gone through a hard crust/ ice layer and left holes , more to do with what we assume in our minds.

I would say that these raised footprints are one of the biggest and most substantial clues that the tent was erected where it was on 1079 and that there were no outsiders involved.

No outsider would be aware of how to stage such a scene, how to cover their own tracks to not show there were more people than the nine hikers. The logistics to cover their own tracks and simulate only the hikers path to the forest without showing up and down movement of pitching the tent on the slope and then leaving a set of footprints that only go one way can't be done.

As in archaeology, we have a similar set of circumstances regarding the layers in the snow, old and new  snow , this is perhaps more important in the forest and what was found and what was NOT found by the Mansi.


Stratigraphy
"The main principle behind stratigraphy is that of superposition. This says that older things are found below younger things. When archaeologists excavate sites, we find layers of soil, each marking a period of use of the site. Artifacts in the upper layers were laid down after those in lower levels. Stratigraphy is the record of these different layers or strata. By excavating sites and separating the artifacts from each layer, it is possible to see changes through time
"

It is the same in the snow layers at the ceder, it is the thaw in May that exposed the clothes, broken branches , sticks and twigs that show the path and activity towards the ravine . There are no other fires or shavings of other trees , there is nothing found or reported in any other layers of the snow. If the hikers had pitched their tent at the ceder then there would be evidence of this and if outsiders were lifting fallen trees of dead bodies there would be loads of evidence for this also. There would be a debris field of bark, twigs, moss all over the area in the snow layers but nothing  is reported by the Mansi.

For me , the logical conclusion is that the tent was on 1079 , no one moved the tent and it would be needless energy spent by any outsider to do such a thing in the cold conditions, then cover their tracks on a mountain slope over 1.5 km ( if that's even possible) and to make footprints in socks going back down the slope then leave the scene at the ceder leaving no tracks anywhere else??? ..

Coming back to the the original point, people made these footprints in socks , someone did it .....we have a tent on the slope, a diary that dates the hikers to that slope and a comment suggesting and talking about camping on a ridge  , 2 photos that show a trench being dug on a slope ,that is NOT in a Forrest . ( And no other student from other hikes has claimed that photo was a different hike from a different year).

When moving , you don't just freeze , activity helps keep the body warm , the nature of the footprints suggests a mild temperature relative to the conditions. 
You can walk and move in the cold , frostbite doesn't happen instantly , we can see them without gloves in many of the photos along their journey, we know socks are a good barrier against the snow when walking ( although not ideal) . Everything thing fits....
 
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December 09, 2024, 06:33:22 AM
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MDGross


Points well taken Ziljoe.  I'm trying to present some alternatives to what is taken for granted most of the time. For example, there's the photo that shows the hikers digging a trench on the slope of 1079. But perhaps they changed their minds and decided to return to the forest. How can we be sure one way or the other?

I'm not a big supporter of staging, but if it did happen, then the stagers would have known that the hikers' bodies were barefooted or in stockings only. So afterwards the stagers could have walked a few hundred feet from the tent (which they've moved to the mountain slope) in bare feet or in stockings.

This is pure speculation, of course. But, it's just taken for granted that the hikers walked almost an hour to the forest then spent one or more hours building a fire, digging a snow den or attempting to walk up the slope. The hikers were brave, in great shape and acclimated to the cold, but in such brutal and unforgiving weather, I do not believe they could stay alive for hours.
 

December 09, 2024, 08:54:00 AM
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Ziljoe


Thanks MDGross. Hope I didn't sound rude ,I wasn't trying to detract from you're thoughts , as I also go through these processes and speculate. It's difficult to get a foot hold In this mystery.

There is discussion on some forum that they , the hikers , perhaps moved the location of there first attempt to pitch the tent from the last photo to where the tent was found. I can't remember the details or argument but perhaps they dug a trench further up the slope but it was unsuitable and relocated further down the slope?.

My problems with any staging or movement of the bodies is that it's over complicated, if it was staged . It would be easier to make a single track of foot prints going up and down the slope , this would stop any worry about what would be found when search parties arrive , the equipment would need to be moved to the tent scene on the slope from the forest. Yet we have a line of foot prints abreast and the footprints diverge at some point down the slope into a 2 or 3 people leaving the 7 or 6 into some sort of separation.

I don't think it takes an hour down the slope, again I forget the exact time but I'm sure it was found to be about 20 minutes , socks are known to be ok for walking , depending on the exact snow conditions. It wouldn't be great but if they were out of any wind and managed to huddle together, then survival for a few hours , or longer , is possible.

It's those raised foot prints that suggest it was milder and any staging to make it look like it was the hikers footprints would or could show it was staged , ultimately, there is only a 10 day window to stage the scene before potential searchers arrive. If the scene is too fresh then that would mess things up .

 

December 10, 2024, 07:21:03 AM
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GlennM


Presenting alternatives is common practice on the forum. The trap is using only the evidence that supports the idea, while ignoring inconvenient truths. Also, we consider degrees of separation. An original diary or original photo is one degree of separation from the truth. An original investigator and their photos are two degrees of separation. Forum contributers relying on these evidences are often 3 degrees of separation from the truth. Pure speculation and conspiracies are four degrees of separation.

We all know that with notebook in hand, Zolo left us nothing. We know that time has changed 1079, the cedar and the ravine.

This is why we create fables and legends. It satisfies a need for closure in the absence of the elusive truth.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2024, 07:46:02 AM by GlennM »
We don't have to say everything that comes into our head.
 

December 11, 2024, 10:49:59 AM
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Arjan


As far as I am aware, nobody has presented a timeline of the effect of hypothermia on possible behaviour and capabilities of the group members during their fatal episode of their tour.

According to my analysis, group members who had left the tent around 16:30 pm had been able to:
- maintain their core temperature by hard work (making campfire and den) during two hours when dressed like most group members (except both Yuri's and the severely wounded three/four) had been found
- around 20:00 pm the non-wounded and better clothed had entered the stage of mild hypothermia
- around 22:00 pm the non-wounded and better clothed had entered a state of apathy
- around 23:00 pm the non-wounded and better clothed had entered a state of dull trance
- around 2:00 am the next day, the non-wounded and better clothed had lost consciousness for the last time in their lives.
- around 5:00 pm the next day, the heart of the non-wounded and better clothed had beaten for the last time.

- Around 12:00 pm the next day, rigor mortis had developed in the joints of these non-wounded and better clothed. Remark: Except Zinaida, all group members had been found in an unnatural pose for death by hypothermia. Several group members show clear signs of being moved after the had lost consciousness for the last time by livy spots on the top of their body, or raised limb(s), like Yuri Kri and Igor.
- Around 24:00 pm the next day, the most inner core of their bodies had started to freeze and herewith their posture had been set in ice.

This provisional timeline leaves only room for two possibilities:
1. the group members had been placed in the postures as found by the first search party by outsiders within a very tight time-frame, or
2. Two or three group-members had spent the fatal night for the others in far better conditions as the group members near the cedar/ravine area. As far as I am aware, there had been only one place in the tent/ravine/cedar area that may provide a good place to survive a cold night: this place is the tent that had been found by the first search party standing on one shorter pole as an excellent place for an emergency bivac. In case two or three group members had stayed huddled together in the tent under several blankets, these two/three had had an uncomfortable cold night, but the next morning they had been able to descend to the cedar/ravine to place the other group members in the postures as found by the first search party. In my opinion, Zinaida and Rustem are the candidates for spending this night in the tent and place the other group members in the postures as found by the first search party.

The last option meets the 'least action principle' (Ockham razor) and it fits honourable behaviour that may be expected from students from a University of Technology at that time.
 
« Last Edit: December 11, 2024, 11:08:47 AM by Arjan »
 

December 11, 2024, 03:40:38 PM
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Ziljoe


The bodies of Slobidin, zina, and Igor are consistent with death from hypothermia I believe. A search on the web will show these unusual body positions with other hypothermia victims. Igor's with the boxer position is known. The two Yuri's do look like the were moved but it also borders on paradoxical undressing in my uneducated opinion. We can't tell anything conclusive from the ravine 4 body positions. I don't know the exact medical reasons for the body pose of Igor but it may be the last fight for life  with intention to move , zina and Slobidin suggest burrowing where the hypothermia victims try to tunnel in to the ground. If that helps .
 

December 14, 2024, 03:46:33 AM
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Arjan


After a long time analysis, I have the opinion that:

Paradoxical undresseing of the two Yuri's is highly unlikely, because a study showed that paradoxical undressing happens mainly during moderate temperatures.
Personally I think that the two Yuri's had sacrificed their outer clothings for insulation of the seats of wounded in the den. Both Yuri's had tried to keep themselves warm near the campfire under the cedar and both had manned "the watchtower" (cedar) in the direction to the tent to note morse code from the flashlight on top of the tent.

The four in the ravine had died by their serious injuries in combination with hypothermia, except Lyudmila who had died within a quarter of an hour by her serious rib cage fracture, and Alexander who had died only by hypothermia after having taking care of the wounded.

The posture wherein Igor had been found my well be explained by being carried by two persons. See the image taken as screenimage from Youtube movie youtube.com/watch?v=06Hj8AcgLdM as example:



This deduction leaves only Zinaida and Rustem as candidates for carrying Igor.

The post mortem of Rustem states: "Postmortem lividity is present with blue-red spots abundantly located on the posterior surface of the neck, torso and extremities".
Deduction leaves only Zinaida as candidate for turning Rustem from his back to his posture 'face down' wherein he had been found by the first search party.

Coming back to a timeline for hypothermia for Igor:
1. Igor had left the tent in the afternoon before the fatal night. He had never stood up by himself at 5:39 am in the fatal night, when his watch had stopped by the cold.
2. Igor had been carried while probably rigor mortis had already developed in the joints of his limbs around 12 am the next day.

The timelines for hypothermia for Zinaida and Rustem only fit when:
1. both had spent the night in the tent.
2. both had descended to the cedar/ravine area after having a small breakfast (fits the manner wherein the tent had been found)
3. Rustem had succumbed within 12 am and 14 pm by his concussion and skull injury and he had lost consciousness for the last time in his live.
4. Zinaida had guarded him until around 21 pm and when he had developed rigidity in his body, she had turned him face down.
5. Around 21 pm, Zinaida had left Rustem in a mental state that had saved the live of Beck Weathers during his descend from the Mount Everest in 1997, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beck_Weathers
6. Zinaida had not made it back to the tent. She had been the only group member found in a posture that resembles some kind of "thermal burrowing" as often last conscious instinct/option used by victims during the process of hypothermia. 
 

December 14, 2024, 04:53:18 PM
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GlennM


Your description paints Zina as the real hero, selflessly helping others and determined to get to the tent for survival and supplies. Had she succeeded, she would have certainly authored a book. I like this idea of heroism. There are elements on this tragedy of noble action as well as poor or desparate choices. If true, your analysis certainly raises her above the mist.
We don't have to say everything that comes into our head.
 

December 16, 2024, 05:44:31 PM
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trockey


A chart from the American National Weather Service, weather.gov/bou/windchill, indicates that at -20°F with the wind blowing 20mph, a person wearing a coat, shoes, etc. will feel the first signs of hypothermia in 10 minutes or less.

I think, they can survive.

They were dressed warmly, for example Zina had 4x layers of clothing at the top and 3/4 layers at legs. Plus hat.
And if you walk, it feel hot!

Here is my personal experience at moutains at winter:
I was travelig in similar conditions as Diatlov group: 1000 meters hight, -5 celcius, strong wind, 2 meters of snow. But with modern clothes.
I was able to survive following single travel: 4 hours of work (500 meters up), worm tourist hostel - 1 hour, 7 hours of walk, hostel - 1h, 6 hours walk (at night).

It was hard?
It was but not very hard.
And I am amateur walker, not advanced.

Check video here for our mountain experience, 15 seconds only:
https://youtu.be/gubKbIwlDhM?si=TgiDVHVlHwtvaza4&t=14

Or here for few seconds (the same video, different time-frame):
https://youtu.be/gubKbIwlDhM?si=0eCo_AQtkaEqKdkQ&t=138

Please note that before they left tent at Diatlov Pass, they rest for 2, 3 hours at tent. And they eat somthing.
So they should survive longer, expecially in snow shelter.



« Last Edit: December 17, 2024, 02:03:56 PM by trockey »
 

December 16, 2024, 08:10:55 PM
Reply #11
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GlennM


Trockey, your analysis argues that they had a good chance surviving the cold if they limited their exposure to the elements. They left the tent by cutting through it, probably at night. While we do not know why, I still favor the slab slide idea. They may have been moving on a moonless night with considerable wind blown snow in the air. They could be sure of which way was downhill in the darkness. They may have underestimated the distance and as such started to become hypothermic. Once they found the treeline, they could either find a ditch, make a snow cave or start a fire. They had matches so they did not rely of making sparks from their flashlights. In the open, the heat from the fire would quickly dissipate in the air, unless all nine could sit exactly where the wind was pushing the flames. Insufficient heat. They tried it at the cedar.

At some point they must have realized that leaving the tent was the last thing they should have done. I do not think they were chased, nor lured. They decided. A damaged tent with snow and ice and no firewood is reason enough to leave for firewood and a wimdbreak.
We don't have to say everything that comes into our head.
 

December 18, 2024, 02:16:38 PM
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trockey


Trockey, your analysis argues that they had a good chance surviving the cold if they limited their exposure to the elements.

I was wrong. I changed my opinion.
It could be hard to servive, especially in deep darkness.
I found two interesting documents:

1.
A man is walking down from the Ortothen montain.
He wears socks instead of shoes. He goes the same way as Diatlov group.
At good condition.
Conslusion: it is relatively easy to reach Cedar area.


2.
An Othoten exploration group, poor weather.
It shows that it is hard to surive, in hard conditions:
https://youtu.be/0feP5n3wa2k?si=OFdwCn8lAoSo1Pk_&t=295





 

December 18, 2024, 03:14:16 PM
Reply #13
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GlennM


Trockey, thanks for finding and posting the videos. You make it clear that foul weather is much harder to handle than fair weather. It is also easier to believe a bad tumble in poor conditions could produce Zolo and Dubina's injuries.

I can not believe that the group would traverse from tent to woods in bad weather in socks. I rather prefer the idea that wood was carried to the last camp in 1079. The stove was used and then put away for the night after the tent was warmed. With these two assumptions, I would think that when the hikers left the tent, conditions were not at their worst. Later, they were.

I believe staying higher up on 1079 was an easier path to Ortoten as opposed to bushwhacking a trail down in the woods.

The unknown compelling force that resulted in their abandoning the tent could very well be snow buildup and crush given that there was still much height left on the uphill side of the tent.

It is hard to appreciate why people would deliberately suffer so much on a quest to achieve something of little consequence.
We don't have to say everything that comes into our head.