Teddy's new trip

[Teddy]

I'll watch the latest one, thank you. The part I was referring to is on the ascent (can't find it on the descent) at 3:58 where the flags are side to side. It makes sense if that's a ridge. It also helps knowing the three who attempted to return were still in sort of the forest even though on diagrams it seems they are out of the forest. It never made sense to me why Dyatlov's corpse had trees around it until now.

This is where Slobodin's body was found. Stone ridges 1-2-3 from Maslennikov's drawing are on the open slope, no trees.



https://youtu.be/4qpJi6iNWF0?si=tH6INuSkNCoe1FSM&t=238

Thanks for the info on Ivanov, I do tend to think orbs or fireballs have a modern explanation (and don't mean aliens or angels) and find him and his info intriguing given who he was in the case. Tree tops burned etc.

I can not judge Lev Ivanov as a professional given the regime and whatever (read https://dyatlovpass.com/ivanov-resolution) but what he did with this article is much worse that what he did with the case in 1959. The thing about flesh on the bark of the tree is complete nonsense. When they found the last four bodies Lev Ivanov didn't even come close to the bodies, Askinadzi is a witness. What kind of investigator is this and why should you repeat what he said 30 years later in an article? Where is the document, or a photo of the so called "flesh on the bark of the cedar"? Lev Ivanov left us with a case that has more holes than a Swiss cheese.

[OLD JEDI 72]

I'll watch the latest one, thank you. The part I was referring to is on the ascent (can't find it on the descent) at 3:58 where the flags are side to side. It makes sense if that's a ridge. It also helps knowing the three who attempted to return were still in sort of the forest even though on diagrams it seems they are out of the forest. It never made sense to me why Dyatlov's corpse had trees around it until now.

This is where Slobodin's body was found. Stone ridges 1-2-3 from Maslennikov's drawing are on the open slope, no trees.



https://youtu.be/4qpJi6iNWF0?si=tH6INuSkNCoe1FSM&t=238

Thanks for the info on Ivanov, I do tend to think orbs or fireballs have a modern explanation (and don't mean aliens or angels) and find him and his info intriguing given who he was in the case. Tree tops burned etc.

I can not judge Lev Ivanov as a professional given the regime and whatever (read https://dyatlovpass.com/ivanov-resolution) but what he did with this article is much worse that what he did with the case in 1959. The thing about flesh on the bark of the tree is complete nonsense. When they found the last four bodies Lev Ivanov didn't even come close to the bodies, Askinadzi is a witness. What kind of investigator is this and why should you repeat what he said 30 years later in an article? Where is the document, or a photo of the so called "flesh on the bark of the cedar"? Lev Ivanov left us with a case that has more holes than a Swiss cheese.

Thanks for setting me straight lol. I trust you have more knowledge about the guy than I do. Let me ask you this, what does, or did he really gain by writing all of that?  Misdirection?  A sense of duty to cover up whatever it really was? Just stoking interest in a cold case like you said? Please bear with my ignorance on some things, I'm still learning. And thank you for taking the time and having the patience to explain it to me as I'm sure it gets repetitious to you.

[Teddy]

He says is right there in the article: "I bring this publication to the families of the victims, especially to apologize to the relatives of Dubinina, Thibeaux-Brignolle and Zolotaryov."
Ivanov felt guilty for not doing his job in 1959. He wanted, honestly, to write an article that attracts attention. Like the YouTube videos now. Something spectacular.
His daughter said that by talking about UFOs, which were popular at the time of writing the article, he thought he would make impression. He just did, unintentionally, a very sloppy job, without any agenda.
He messed even more what was already hopelessly messed up by him in 1959.

The Russians do not put much weight into this article - Lev Ivanov, "Leninskiy Put", Kustanay, 22 and 24 November, 1990.

Even the title is stolen from this article by another author "Mystery of the fireballs" - interview with Stanislav Evgenievich Bogomolov, author of the article "Mystery of the fireballs", published in the "Uralskiy Rabochiy", July 8, 10, 11, and 12, 1990.

[Teddy]

Although it seems like I am trashing Lev Ivanov there are two things I give him kudos for, and they show he had put some thought (see 1.) and feelings (see 2.) into this case:
1. Why did he order radioactive tests on the last four bodies?
2. After 25 year all the evidence should be destroyed, but still he kept the films from the Dyatlov group cameras at his home. In 2009 his daughter Aleksandra Lvovna Ivanova gave the films to Aleksey Koskin and Yuri Kuntsevich.

[Ziljoe]

Hi teddy,

I can't think of much more to suggest. A camera would be great but I understand the logistics and funding issues. It would probably need to be done over several years to get even a vague indication of snow fall, depth , temperature etc. Maybe someone will in the future.

Anyway a couple of thoughts. I believe some people think the yurt or chum was in this location ? .




It doesn't look like a place where the Mansi would camp and it doesn't look like a structure to sleep in. If you don't already know , perhaps you could ask your Mansi friend of its significance. Also, what is the reason for the antlers? I have read somewhere that the branches were staked like this for the purpose of drying the wood for when they camped close by. The idea being the vertical stacking was for drying the wood and it's location  was on the edge of the forest to allow wind to assist the drying. , It would be then that the Mansi would take the wood to burn in the shelter of the forest. I have read that the location of this chum was north of zina and Dyatlov on the tree line?

[Ziljoe]

Although it seems like I am trashing Lev Ivanov there are two things I give him kudos for, and they show he had put some thought (see 1.) and feelings (see 2.) into this case:
1. Why did he order radioactive tests on the last four bodies?
2. After 25 year all the evidence should be destroyed, but still he kept the films from the Dyatlov group cameras at his home. In 2009 his daughter Aleksandra Lvovna Ivanova gave the films to Aleksey Koskin and Yuri Kuntsevich.

1)Giving a guess as to why he ordered the radio active test was perhaps from his own assumptions from the statements about objects in the sky. There are several observations by students and the news article. The alleged story of him seeing the clothes glowing could have been his own made up story to get the tests done?

2) perhaps a feeling of guilt and there being no true resolution to the case. He was responsible and didn't find an answer. A lot of people suffered , the families and the careers of the sports institution along with the UPI. If he had found the reason , life would have been easier for many. ( Not his fault , but as humans we feel responsible).

I don't think you're trashing him teddy . 

 

[Teddy]

A Mansi chum (definition) was observed North-East from where Dyatlov group pitched their tent on the night of January 30. A trail leading to the chum was passing 200 feet from where they camped.



This construction is referred to as chum and was found 1 km from the tent according to Cheglakov's testimony.

Vladimir Androsov, Mansi ethnologist, commented in an interview on this particular photo:
"At this place a moose was killed. I can tell that it was killed and not dead because both antlers are together. When moose shed their antlers of age, they scratch on trees and usually loose them one by one. Mansi hunters left meat at that place and since the terrain is all the same around they put up a sign visible from far away. Or they might have taken the meat with them and marked the place to come and hunt again. It's just a sign. The long stick on the left is a trochee. The moose was killed in autumn. Not sure why did they leave the trochee (the long stick propped on the left side)."

I have asked Valery Anyamov about this photo and he confirmed what Androsov said. Nothing else to add.

[Ziljoe]

A Mansi chum (definition) was observed North-East from where Dyatlov group pitched their tent on the night of January 30. A trail leading to the chum was passing 200 feet from where they camped.



This construction is referred to as chum and was found 1 km from the tent according to Cheglakov's testimony.

Vladimir Androsov, Mansi ethnologist, commented in an interview on this particular photo:
"At this place a moose was killed. I can tell that it was killed and not dead because both antlers are together. When moose shed their antlers of age, they scratch on trees and usually loose them one by one. Mansi hunters left meat at that place and since the terrain is all the same around they put up a sign visible from far away. Or they might have taken the meat with them and marked the place to come and hunt again. It's just a sign. The long stick on the left is a trochee. The moose was killed in autumn. Not sure why did they leave the trochee (the long stick propped on the left side)."

I have asked Valery Anyamov about this photo and he confirmed what Androsov said. Nothing else to add.

I am no Mansi ethnologist but it doesn't come close to a chum. It seems a lot of work for nothing to drag these trees to hold or display those antlers. Reading Vladimir Androsov interview , he seems to believe in a number of things that contradict the case files.

My gut feeling would be the Mansi leave signs on the trees , as we can see in the Dyatlov photos. I prefer the drying of wood theory and to how far this sign of branches and antlers could be seen from seems irrelevant. Perhaps a celebration of a first kill by a hunter? The long straight pole is odd though . I would suspect that elk and moose would roam all over the area, to signify this spot must mean something otherwise.

Has it anything to with the hikers? Probably not. It shows that the Mansi were in the area though , perhaps at different times of year , this makes me think that there's no secret bombs , bases etc. The Mansi used the land and I would suspect that this was known by the UPI, government, military . There would be no secret testing in a hunting area .   

[Osi]

As for Chum; The field of view in the forest is very short (rough) and in order to hunt, the game animal must come within 50 meters of you. They notice you and don't come that close. Due to the density of snow, your tracking ability in the forest decreases. If the chum skeleton made in the open is wrapped with a tarpaulin, you can wait for your prey inside, protected from the wind, all day long. You have the chance to see animal movements in 4 directions up to 1 km.
I think we can define Chum as a temporary base where animals expelled from the forest can easily hunt in open areas. The horn on top is a natural precaution to prevent the trees from being scattered left and right by the wind, and the wire is too valuable a material to be left in the forest.

[Teddy]

There would be no secret testing in a hunting area .

And vise versa, the Mansi won't hunt in a test area. They never stopped drinking the water or herd their deer in the area where the incident with the hikers happened.

[Teddy]

As for Chum; The field of view in the forest is very short (rough) and in order to hunt, the game animal must come within 50 meters of you. They notice you and don't come that close. Due to the density of snow, your tracking ability in the forest decreases. If the chum skeleton made in the open is wrapped with a tarpaulin, you can wait for your prey inside, protected from the wind, all day long. You have the chance to see animal movements in 4 directions up to 1 km.
I think we can define Chum as a temporary base where animals expelled from the forest can easily hunt in open areas. The horn on top is a natural precaution to prevent the trees from being scattered left and right by the wind, and the wire is too valuable a material to be left in the forest.

That's a good explanation for me.

[GlennM]

Teddy, could you equip with a thermometer to give us an appreciation of your temperature versus the outside temperature? I believe you would know when making a measurement set would be most appropriate. It might be meaningful if you made similar measurements at home before your trek. The forum discusses hypothermia often, but perhaps your data might be of use in helping us figure out the amount of time before hypothermia onset. No, I am not suggesting you for yourself at risk. Too, much has been made of valenki vs boots. Could you or someone take a brief walk in valenki, return to the tent and record foot temperature. The idea is that numb feet precipitate trip/fall down the slope. The forum might discuss how useful valenki actually are, and why they, not boots were worn when the 9 were found.

Finally, the thermometer might help by giving insight regarding the temperature of an occupied tent versus outside.

I have the opinion that up to a certain point, heat or cold are stimulating, but excess heat makes one sluggish and stupid. Excess cold makes one angry and rash.

Glenn

[Teddy]

I could never measure my temperature even at home. I am not good with thermometers.
I can't get correct readings even when I am holding it in my armpit, forehead, mouth, year, whatever. I didn't procure a thermometer even in Covid times.
Running up and down in woolen socks or valenki has been done many times.
Here Shura is going down in socks. He is saying that his main problem is actually holding the camera.





People's temperature and how they react to cold in general is very individual.
It has been decided that going in valenki is not what killed them.
Look at their feet, they do not have any frostbite or serious injuries.
https://dyatlovpass.com/injuries

Yuri Yudin commented after seeing the bodies in the Ivdel morgue how intact their feet looked like.

Going in socks and valenki has been done many times.

[Teddy]

I think we keep going to the pass anticipating something to happen. Having a plan is ok, but you are at the mercy of the Mountain.
You can't take your experiments seriously because the Mountain will kill you in many ways.
I go there like going to a casino. This is my Russian roulette.

The Russians are discussing going to Otorten following Dyatlov's original plan.
This a very risky plan, considering they can be forced to go down to the ravine at any moment and be separated. So everyone is packing matches, dry bark, and prepared to spend the night on his own.
This is some serious stuff.

This summer I almost didn't even make it to the pass. In the summer!
And this is going to be me there and back like a flash. But we have to keep going.

[OLD JEDI 72]

I think we keep going to the pass anticipating something to happen. Having a plan is ok, but you are at the mercy of the Mountain.
You can't take your experiments seriously because the Mountain will kill you in many ways.
I go there like going to a casino. This is my Russian roulette.

The Russians are discussing going to Otorten following Dyatlov's original plan.
This a very risky plan, considering they can be forced to go down to the ravine at any moment and be separated. So everyone is packing matches, dry bark, and prepared to spend the night on his own.
This is some serious stuff.

This summer I almost didn't even make it to the pass. In the summer!
And this is going to be me there and back like a flash. But we have to keep going.

Wow, that sounds ballsy. Are they going to dress in the same way? The one thing I noticed is NO long johns or thermal underwear. A freshly filled Zippo lighter and a couple of bottles of lighter fluid for me thanks.

[OLD JEDI 72]

The real experiment is timing a visit with a massive temperature inversion. The hikers themselves said it was warm with wind like a jet engine. That's why they were walking around with jackets unbuttoned. And sitting in the tent with no heat but clothes and shoes off. And then the temperature completely flipped after the tent event. Modern weather models can predict it to a T.

[GlennM]

.

[MDGross]

Shura walked down the slope in socks. But I have the feeling he was wearing a coat and hood and gloves. And he walked in daylight. I cling to the opinion that no one, including members of the Dyatlov group, could survive two or more hours in a pair of pants and a shirt in sub-zero temperatures and a strong wind. Perhaps they didn't walk down the slope in the first place, and their feet show no frostbite because at least five of them (Doroshenko, Krivonischenko, Siobodin, Kolmogorova and Dyatlov) died of hypothermia before their feet suffered frostbite.

I'll be curious to know, Teddy, that on the night you camp on the slope if you or anyone in your party think they could walk in socks, pants and a shirt to the forest below, climb a tree, cut branches and build a fire before dying of hypothermia.

[Ziljoe]

Many people walk in in socks in winter. The only negative to walking in socks is the durability of the sole, not the the insulation properties. Sura was wearing slightly better clothing but I think it was an experiment on the footwear. As to daylight v nighttime, it has little bearing , yes it might help in the instance of shura but some days are colder than the night time.

Also no one was in a pair of pants or a single shirt. They all had at least double lairs on the lower half and triple layers on the torso. We don't know the wind chill but that's Important factor that should be considered.

Regarding Dyatlov himself , it was reported that he was in a group of trees that suggested he was going upwards. My interpretation was that he was found in a horse shoe type scenario. For example, he went down but when ever he decided to move up he was in an area that dictates he must have at least went down the slope , then upwards because he was stuck in surrounding trees that could only of happened by going upwards and not downwards. Frostbite can take time , it depends on slot of factors .

[OLD JEDI 72]

Hi Teddy, I don't know if it's been done before but how about starting a fire with matches only and no accelerant? Then try with a lighter. It should be attempted when and if it's super windy in day or night.

[Ziljoe]

Hi Teddy, I don't know if it's been done before but how about starting a fire with matches only and no accelerant? Then try with a lighter. It should be attempted when and if it's super windy in day or night.

I don't think there's any reason to be suspicious about the ability to light a fire with limited resources , skilled tourists would have been taught this from knowledge over many generations. They had matches , would know what would burn , not easy for the uneducated in bushcraft perhaps but they had many years of winter conditions between them. I believe there were a number of matches found under the ceder, I don't think it says if they were spent or not ( used or unused) . Perhaps some of the missing diaries were used as tinder? They seem pocket sized note books?

[GlennM]

Before partying Lyuda gave a souvenir to Yuri Yudin, a small Teddy Bear. He kept the fluffy toy until the end of his days. After his death April 29, 2013, the Teddy Bear was passed to Kuntsevich, head of the Daytlov foundation at the time. Kuntsevich himself passed away on 11 August 2021.


Other DP9 members had teddy bears. Teddy, you too should have several small teddy bears in your rucksack. One should be kept as your personal legacy item. The others, being symbolic and travelled to 1079, might be used in future fund raisers.

[OLD JEDI 72]

Hi Teddy, I don't know if it's been done before but how about starting a fire with matches only and no accelerant? Then try with a lighter. It should be attempted when and if it's super windy in day or night.

I don't think there's any reason to be suspicious about the ability to light a fire with limited resources , skilled tourists would have been taught this from knowledge over many generations. They had matches , would know what would burn , not easy for the uneducated in bushcraft perhaps but they had many years of winter conditions between them. I believe there were a number of matches found under the ceder, I don't think it says if they were spent or not ( used or unused) . Perhaps some of the missing diaries were used as tinder? They seem pocket sized note books?

"Suspicious about the ability." You ain't just whistling Dixie! You're really reaching on the tinder possibility though. Why would any members of the gang have ripped them out in the first place? And before you speak of education or "uneducation" in survival, remember it's 1959.

I like the tree idea, Teddy. With it clobbering the ravine 4 from above when they were building and gathering for the fire.  I don't agree the tent was there but I'm starting to think the gang was standing in that spot gathering wood for the two Yuri's.

[Ziljoe]

Hi Teddy, I don't know if it's been done before but how about starting a fire with matches only and no accelerant? Then try with a lighter. It should be attempted when and if it's super windy in day or night.

I don't think there's any reason to be suspicious about the ability to light a fire with limited resources , skilled tourists would have been taught this from knowledge over many generations. They had matches , would know what would burn , not easy for the uneducated in bushcraft perhaps but they had many years of winter conditions between them. I believe there were a number of matches found under the ceder, I don't think it says if they were spent or not ( used or unused) . Perhaps some of the missing diaries were used as tinder? They seem pocket sized note books?

"Suspicious about the ability." You ain't just whistling Dixie! You're really reaching on the tinder possibility though. Why would any members of the gang have ripped them out in the first place? And before you speak of education or "uneducation" in survival, remember it's 1959.

I like the tree idea, Teddy. With it clobbering the ravine 4 from above when they were building and gathering for the fire.  I don't agree the tent was there but I'm starting to think the gang was standing in that spot gathering wood for the two Yuri's.

Calm Doon cowboy, you seem to be a rootin 'n' a tootin .

A simple Google will bring you to various tinder options , it's been discussed before , there's nothing odd about the starting of a fire where they were. I'm not sure what you mean by gang , or ripped them out , if you mean the suggestion of diaries, then some of these books ( diaries )were pocket sized. It would be useful tinder as some of them already had newspaper clippings etc in their pockets. Likewise, the trees etc have various resources.

Here's a nice gentleman in winter in February talking about how to start a fire with some resin.

https://youtu.be/7bgijLMMtpc?si=8U_3bQk9XRldVzXE

The ceder would be probably the best option for resources.

This guy shows us where to find the resin and climbs a tree !

https://youtu.be/Gq7pyVxLP1s?si=KMVZAtIFAjWUSGQy

This guy cuts right into the dead branch next to the trunk , this is where the best fat wood is.

https://youtu.be/v7EoZBFi9xs?si=vDGl4m5aS79LUbQz

I'm not sure what you mean by remembering it's 1959 , it's neither here or there , it's the skill of the people that have had to live in those conditions passing skills on for years . For those that are interested in outdoors , it is wise to invest in learning these skills that are essential to day to day living.

Many of us live in warm houses like yourself, most flick a switch for heat or buy firestarters from the supermarket.
The Dyatlov group would have known a few tricks and not solely relied on some sort of accelerant .