Why a fire at the cedar didn't work.

[GlennM]

We believe a fire was made at the cedar to warm the hikers. There are a couple things that worked against them in that regard. First, by stopping and sitting by the fire, the body is not expending energy to produce body heat. Secondly, only the side of the body facing the fire gets warmed. The cold on the otherside ( back ) is stealing heat and accelerating hypothermia. If the hikers had cut the tent and brought canvas with them, they could have reflected the heat of the fire to their backs and kept warm in order to survive the night.

[OLD JEDI 72]

We believe a fire was made at the cedar to warm the hikers. There are a couple things that worked against them in that regard. First, by stopping and sitting by the fire, the body is not expending energy to produce body heat. Secondly, only the side of the body facing the fire gets warmed. The cold on the otherside ( back ) is stealing heat and accelerating hypothermia. If the hikers had cut the tent and brought canvas with them, they could have reflected the heat of the fire to their backs and kept warm in order to survive the night.

It's very obvious you are correct. I wonder how the fire was even started in the first place. Katabatic winds, jet engine winds, blowing snow, burning live green branches on top of snow. In my mind there is no way to even get a fire started without an accelerant with those conditions, the most obvious being high proof vodka they potentially stole from the drunk man on the train and that was kept separate from the "medicinal" vodka. It would make more sense one of them was carrying a bottle of booze than say a can of gasoline or lighter fluid when they didn't even take proper clothes down the hill. I like the theory written on here by Aleksandr Surkov called Zolotaryov's Meltdown. I don't necessarily think it's true, but I think it's close to what happened. One of them had a meltdown in my opinion and I think a few shots of high proof booze taken by kids (lightweight drinkers) and petty trifles caused it. The so-called fireballs could have been them igniting the fire by the cedar after the sh@# hit the fan in the tent.

[GlennM]

OJ72 thanks for the reply. Zolo's meltdown is an interesting take on the event. Like everything else, it fits what will fit and ignores that which does not fit.

The vodka that you mention interests me. There is no substantiation to this but if the kids swiped the bottle and if the bottle had methanol along with ethanol, then who knows what anyone who drank it would do to preserve themselves?

It seems clear from the autopsy and case files that what ever affected the group, it affected them face first. There is no reason to suspect they were individually or collectively attacked from behind. It also suggests that they were not helpless in their situation. There was defensive and protective behavior to ward off cold, shelter and rescue themselves.  Nature is indifferent.

[Arjan]

The autopsy report of Alexander states: 'Canvas one-piece khaki pants with elastic support. In the right pants pocket is a soaked pack of matches'

Very probably all group members had been masters in making campfires. At least Alexander had a pack of matches with him while being at the ravine/cedar area, so he had been able to light a fire.

The problem for group members in the ravine/cedar area is, the wood near the cedar had not dried sufficiently to be used for a 'hot efficient burning' campfire.

They had not have time to pre-heat 'wet wood' near a campfire started before.

Very probably the campfire near the cedar had not produced sufficient heat due to the sublevel firewood collected around the cedar.

[Osi]

In cases of death from cold, there are two situations expected for the person. 1)Paradoxical undressing 2)Final refuge
Doroshenko and Kriveshenko; They had to warm up their friends who were working to dig a snow pit. On their knees, they blew into the fire at -25 degrees. They must have been trying for about half an hour. The wet branches did not burn strongly. Their body temperatures gradually dropped and they began to undress. They lost their lives minutes after undressing. I think the other 7 people suffered partial sweating due to overexertion. I think that Zinaida, Rüstem and Igor met a sudden death within 10-15 minutes after leaving the cedar, depending on their distance. There was no specific time period for the paradoxical undressing to occur. Dyatlov's embrace of the dwarf birch tree is the ultimate search for shelter. Zina and Rustem were also found under the snow, as if they had dug their sleeping place under a primitive consciousness.
In conclusion; Since they realized that fire does not burn and cannot be lit, they focused on different alternatives.

[GlennM]

For me, the hikers making a fire out in the open, in those conditions is suspect. These were supposedly experienced hikers. Surely, they would seek shelter before warmth. It is altogether reasonable to me that the hikers would first, shelter in the ravine, then seek firewood, then make fire. Prehaps they did just that. Two volunteers offered to break and gather firewood. Others got branches for a floor mat. If the two Yuri's died at or near the cedar, I would conjecture they were getting firewood for the ravine, fell and were discovered after a period of time. Since they were hurt, they didn't move much and got too cold. Another hiker or two found them and made an emergency fire rather than move them to the ravine.

The fire may have been adequate, or not. I think not for themreasons I gave previously. The young men were beyond saving and the fire really did not help. When they died and were still pliable, their clothing was taken. They were respectfully posed at the tree for later recovery.

Since the gathered firewood was burned at the cedar, there was nothing to take to the ravine, hence no fire. Meanwhile, the others trying to shelter, may have precipitated an event that crushed Dubina and Zolo. On the heels of this disaster. Three set out for the tent. They, of course perished from exposure.

Pity poor Igor, he was warned and saw one by one his friends suffer and die because making it around Ortoten in winter was something to brag about. In the end, he too could not benefit from a fire.

[OLD JEDI 72]

OJ72 thanks for the reply. Zolo's meltdown is an interesting take on the event. Like everything else, it fits what will fit and ignores that which does not fit.

The vodka that you mention interests me. There is no substantiation to this but if the kids swiped the bottle and if the bottle had methanol along with ethanol, then who knows what anyone who drank it would do to preserve themselves?

It seems clear from the autopsy and case files that what ever affected the group, it affected them face first. There is no reason to suspect they were individually or collectively attacked from behind. It also suggests that they were not helpless in their situation. There was defensive and protective behavior to ward off cold, shelter and rescue themselves.  Nature is indifferent.

It's the one thing that keeps repeating. Vodka. I read somewhere Yudin was supposed to be the procurer of vodka but failed, then we hear of a drunk guy accusing the group of nicking his and Yudin all of the sudden backs out of the trek with the guys looking on in disbelief. Everyone thinks that for a cover up to exist it must be related to the government testing bombs or whatnot but the cover up I see is to protect these hikers and the Soviet ideal of Communism. I also read somewhere one of the investigators refer to them going from a semi savage to savage state. This might be a bit off topic but how did these hikers bathe or stop the B.O.? Imagine everyone stripping down to sleep and the raw funk? That had to garner a smart remark from at least one of them.

[OLD JEDI 72]

The autopsy report of Alexander states: 'Canvas one-piece khaki pants with elastic support. In the right pants pocket is a soaked pack of matches'

Very probably all group members had been masters in making campfires. At least Alexander had a pack of matches with him while being at the ravine/cedar area, so he had been able to light a fire.

The problem for group members in the ravine/cedar area is, the wood near the cedar had not dried sufficiently to be used for a 'hot efficient burning' campfire.

They had not have time to pre-heat 'wet wood' near a campfire started before.

Very probably the campfire near the cedar had not produced sufficient heat due to the sublevel firewood collected around the cedar.

"Masters in making campfires" use an accelerant. Matches alone would not cut it in that situation.

[GlennM]

Another forum member argues that movie celluloid film in a canister did double duty of providing ski pole support within the tent and also being a source for snippets of combustible fire accelerant. I can accept both as true, but I differ in that I fail to find convincing evidence that the accelerant was the cause of the tent evacuation.Yet another forum member suggests that this burn able  movie film was relatively easy to come by.

In the generally accepted triangle of locations (tent, cedar, ravine), it is curious that a fire was made in the one location where it would do the least good. That was the cedar. I feel that an extraordinary circumstance precluded transporting wood to and making a fire at the ravine. Protected to a degree from wind, the ravine would be a better place to make fire and temporary camp.

[Osi]

In the movie The Edge, Mr. Charles (Antony Hopkins) falls into the water and they take him out of the water and start making a fire. etc.

The same applies to tourists who have traveled 1300 meters of rugged distance in a snowstorm with inadequate clothing. They were extremely cold. I believe the cedar and fire are a gathering place. There must have been dry branches of the giant cedar next to you. It may have provided a wall against the storm. There is no possibility of building a shelter there. There is not enough snow. It is necessary to spread out and search. It is doubtful whether a sheltered valley will be found, and this convinces us that fire is a priority at the first gathering place.

[SURI]

In the generally accepted triangle of locations (tent, cedar, ravine), it is curious that a fire was made in the one location where it would do the least good. That was the cedar. I feel that an extraordinary circumstance precluded transporting wood to and making a fire at the ravine. Protected to a degree from wind, the ravine would be a better place to make fire and temporary camp.

They built a fire near the cedar tree, because that was where their point of interest was at the time.

[GlennM]

I think having a fire at the cedar is understandable for these reasons. (1) the ravine was not yet found. They went to the cedar first. (2)  The ravine was found first and people got wet/ hurt or both. Those who could went to the cedar for firewood instead of bringing firewood to the ravine. (3) The ravine was found first and a relay team went to gather wood. These people probably including the two Yuris got injured and some other hikers arrived and built a rescue fire to comfort them. (4) The fire was intended to be a signal to aircraft.

The fire at the cedar made through urgent necessity, otherwise a more useful fire would be made with a windblock at the ravine where many people could warm themselves front and back. Too, with an accessory lean to, wet clothes could be heat dried.There is no evidence that the platform found at the ravine was actually a lean to. We also find bodies degraded by running water at the ravine.

Therefore, if the hikers made fire at the tree and then blundered into the ravine, there is some sense to it. If they found their way to the ravine and tried to shelter there, but couldn`t,  that too makes sense. As always, we need definitive evidence. Six decades of weather, tourism and souvenirs make that unlikely. Teddy may find a knife in the dirt. She may discover something else. She subscribes to the theory that the tent never resided where it was found, but rather was struck by a fallen tree in the forest. The forum's lead investigator then is going to expect clues in a different place altogether.

[SURI]

I think having a fire at the cedar is understandable for these reasons. (1) the ravine was not yet found. They went to the cedar first. (2)  The ravine was found first and people got wet/ hurt or both. Those who could went to the cedar for firewood instead of bringing firewood to the ravine. (3) The ravine was found first and a relay team went to gather wood. These people probably including the two Yuris got injured and some other hikers arrived and built a rescue fire to comfort them. (4) The fire was intended to be a signal to aircraft.

The fire at the cedar made through urgent necessity, otherwise a more useful fire would be made with a windblock at the ravine where many people could warm themselves front and back. Too, with an accessory lean to, wet clothes could be heat dried.There is no evidence that the platform found at the ravine was actually a lean to. We also find bodies degraded by running water at the ravine.

Therefore, if the hikers made fire at the tree and then blundered into the ravine, there is some sense to it. If they found their way to the ravine and tried to shelter there, but couldn`t,  that too makes sense. As always, we need definitive evidence. Six decades of weather, tourism and souvenirs make that unlikely. Teddy may find a knife in the dirt. She may discover something else. She subscribes to the theory that the tent never resided where it was found, but rather was struck by a fallen tree in the forest. The forum's lead investigator then is going to expect clues in a different place altogether.

I'm leaning towards number 1. The fire must have been built near a cedar tree, because 2 "points" of their interest resided in the tree.

If the tent was in a different location, then who was walking down the slope in socks and why? That doesn't make any sense.

[Osi]

From a tent without shelter; How do you leave quickly? How can you walk calmly without panicking and helping each other? How could you have thought that the forest border was the last place that could partially protect you from the wind and find firewood? Who whispered in your ear that everyone must be part of the unconditional division of labor in order to come to light here? After traveling from the tent to the Cedar, collect all the fresh and dry branches you can find. Prepare a fire with dry branches next to the cedar, (Since this is the ideal place to light a fire, it is difficult to light a fire in a place with heavy snow without preparing a shelter from logs under it). Have the rest of you find shelter nearby and prepare a bed of fresh branches. It has been thought and done so far. Once I leave the tent where there is a clear threat, I find it all quite logical. These are ancient experiences that have been engraved in the knowledge DNA of climbers for centuries. However, some unexpected and unfortunate things happened. The pine branches you burned in your previous experiences did not burn this time, or someone fell into the water and got injured while you were just managing to light the fire. Neglecting the fire, you ran to help and gave your clothes as a gift to the wet people. When you return, the ability to strengthen the fire again has run out.

[Ziljoe]

I do think there's a possibility of getting wet and or having an accident at the ravine .




We have two scenarios that we can't argue with, one the ravine was empty of snow down to the river bed , then in the following three weeks the ravine filled up . ( This suggests that it is an exposed area ) . Two , it was already filled with snow , and somehow the hikers ended up underneath 4 meters of snow.

There is a chance that some of them got wet crossing the ravine . Once wet , this complicates survival from a cold uncomfortable night to extreme body heat loss.

There's a number of observations in the statements in the case files that are not often mentioned. The branches higher up the ceder were still green so to speak , it would make sense that these were broken first , then the lower dry branches were broken. The higher branches were used for flooring around the fire, that is, in part described in the case files, the two Yuri's were lying on these branches . Also it is noted that there was considerable melted snow around the fire , under the fresh snow.so the fire did burn . At least one of the matching socks for the Yuri's was found in the fire, part  burned and the other matching sock on his foot which was also burned ( sock and tie).

It is also described that it was odd that a knife was used to cut the young trees used at the den for flooring as they could be snapped by the hand easily.

To think outside of the box , the den flooring could be an attempt at a bridge or raised platform to cross the stream without getting wet , or, in order to return to the tent without getting wet feet again?.

We have paradoxical undressing, others taking clothes of the other hikers for warmth or the possibility of having to remove some wet clothes and try drying them .

So, we have the high green branches broken first on the ceder , then dry branches lower down. We have flooring around the ceder fire as an insulator and melted snow. Two of the hikers lie on top of the fir branches with burns to lower limb clothes and body parts , some of their footwear is also found in the fire.

I would guess that the ceder is pivotal in survival, it has everything to get things started , shelter from above, dry branches , branches for flooring .

[SURI]

The large cedar branches were broken mainly for the safety of the Yuris, so that pursuers could not climb behind them. Their socks and limbs were burned by their pursuers as they tried to get them out of the tree with these long, burning branches.

[Osi]

freeze ; Since the organs we have to use physically and sensory are more unprotected and free, it starts from the fingers and toes, the tip of the nose and the ears, where the body temperature is lowest. It is not right to judge someone who is trying to save their life using today's first aid techniques. Frozen hands and feet should not be exposed to fire or immersed directly in hot water. I feel like they had to burn his numb hands and feet by setting fire to them. Maybe they thought they could save their hands and feet so they could walk or feed the fire with branches.

[SURI]

Krivonischenko had his leg burned by being held in the fire by force. In pain, he bit off a piece of skin from his hand. He wouldn't leave his foot there voluntarily, and if his foot was already numb, he wouldn't have any reason to bite his skin.

[SURI]

That was the primary goal for starting the fire. He was then left to his fate.

[Ziljoe]

Krivonischenko had his leg burned by being held in the fire by force. In pain, he bit off a piece of skin from his hand. He wouldn't leave his foot there voluntarily, and if his foot was already numb, he wouldn't have any reason to bite his skin.

So what burns did they get when up in the tree ?.

He had frostbite on his fingers and toes , this can be painful , although not ideal by todays advice , it would seem the Yuri's were trying to warm themselves by the fire , there may have been unconscious and movement of the branches as they burned. I don't see any reason or advantage for someone to intentionally burn them .

If Krivonischenko tried to move a burning branch off his own leg by his numb hand , it may explain the hand burn and the biting of some skin. Frostbite is painful and so is the thawing of frostbite . There were fir or ceder branches under them , there were no wounds that indicate them being inflicted by other people . You don't need to start a fire to cause pain to another human , or burn one side of one toe on an already cold foot in a wool sock , it doesn't make much sense, it's labour intensive when there's quicker ways .


 It certainly looks like a survival situation more than a crime scene imo.

[SURI]

It seems to me the opposite. Those two were in the tree and they didn't want to come down from the tree at any cost. The fire was started just because of them. If they hadn't run to the tree and hidden there, there would have been no fire, as indicated by the turned on flashlight on the slope, which suggests that the intention was not to go into the forest.

I know you don't like it and don't want to hear about it at all. And isn't that exactly the mistake?

[Ziljoe]

Thanks Suri.

I don't mind hearing about anything but it helps if the detail matches. I've thought about every possible scenario, sometimes I need help or a bit more explanation.

We don't know if the two Yuri's were in the tree, that's just an assumption. The logic would follow that the higher branches were broken for seating on the snow as an insulation barrier for the ground .

What were the two Yuri's hiding from and where does the touch on the slope fit in? I want to hear everything as I think most of us are out of any new ideas..

[SURI]

As far as I know, there should have been some skin left on the tree. If an analysis was done, it would have come out that it belonged to those two. I've written before about who they were running from. Just look at the clothes and shoes of everyone. I remind you that no one else was there according to the fingerprints. If everyone had gone to the forest as planned, wouldn't they have taken a flashlight with them?

[GlennM]

The personal profile of Lyuda suggests she had a melancholy/perfect personality. She was in a dark mood prior to the ascent to 1079. She withdrew from group activities. It could be that she did something rash at the edge of the ravine that caused both she and Zolo, who didn't  know her well, to fall into the ravine. Zolo may have been playing the peacemaker when it happened. This event perhaps followed the futile attempt to warm and shelter at the cedar.

At the cedar, time and effort were spent or wasted making fire but without shelter. She perhaps became critical enough to strike out for herself. This idea might be historically right if she witnessed the deaths of the two Yuris.  Others followed to consolidate the group. Igor may have lost authority once people started succumbing to the effects of cold.

Making fire at the cedar was arguably their first priority, but it should have been a dynamic operation with making/finding shelter happening concurrently. Lyuda may have seen that necessity and taken initiative, or just have been disappointed with events.

The thing is that none of them were novices, or stupid. They did everything starting at the tent in a reasonable and responsible way. But, when the situation became dire, leadership by mutual consent may have broken down.

For me, it is tent to cedar to ravine to tent, all driven by the inadequacy of sustaining a warming fire at the cedar.

[SURI]

The personal profile of Lyuda suggests she had a melancholy/perfect personality. She was in a dark mood prior to the ascent to 1079. She withdrew from group activities.

And that's exactly the point, that Lyuda changed before the ascent. My opinion is that she had a good reason for that. I have an idea what it is, but I won't mention it here.

[OLD JEDI 72]

The personal profile of Lyuda suggests she had a melancholy/perfect personality. She was in a dark mood prior to the ascent to 1079. She withdrew from group activities.

And that's exactly the point, that Lyuda changed before the ascent. My opinion is that she had a good reason for that. I have an idea what it is, but I won't mention it here.

She was probably being ridiculed by St. Igor for buying some fabric she shouldn't have. The rumor was that they were all virgins, except Zolo of course. Imagine that, 20 something virgins crammed in a tent together and someone gets the slightest suspicion someone is "getting it in" and they're not because they are sleeping away from the giggles..

[GlennM]

Gland games are not what caused them to knife out of the tent. We have two Yuris deceased at the cedar, this too is no affairs of the heart.

I agree that their watching Symphony in Gold and talking about true love is suppressed sexuality. I agree that giving up smokes and drink are hard when the body is used to it. Some may be fantasising romantic love, others physical. Autopsy findinhs shows no sexual activity .

The only thing we can allude to are diary entries which paint Lyuda as one who lets out pent up emotions by arguement. We know, in a general way, the personalities of others. In terms of their circumstance after leaving the tent, outspokenness had to be tolerated, even if they tried in some limited way to have orderliness in command.

It can't be known whether frustration/aggression broke the group up or kept them together beyond the tent. If they had cut the tent for shawls and built a reflecting fire, all could have survived and attempted a grade 3 certification another time. Nature is indifferent.

[Arjan]

The diaries - as available via dyatlovpass.com - suggest that Lyudmila had not been top fit when the group had left Vizhay until at least 30 January.

The diary attributed to Lyudmila describes as entry on 26 January: 'It's a dream come true. And the guys are all on the floor. Mood is bad and probably will be for two more days. Evil as hell.'
The 'unknow' diary describes as entry on 30 January: 'Lyuda quickly got tired and sat down by the fire' and '(Lyuda went into the tent and did not come out until the end of the dinner)'.

There is a blog on dyatlovpass.com giving a try to explain Lyudmila's bad mood on January 26th: 'Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death', see:
https://dyatlovpass.com/dubininas-premonition

There may well be a sound and basic explanation for these entries in both diaries: 'Lyudmila's monthly period starting around 26/28th'.

This option/explanation may well relevant for the events on January 1st while preparing the camp site.

The camp site is surrounded with snow and frozen water.
The group had not any adequate heating source for melting snow/ice at the camp site on January 1st afternoon.
The group had not sufficient water for the night in order to prevent dehydration during the night and next morning.

It makes fully sense that three group members - including Lyudmila - had descended to the ravine in order to:
- fetch running water
- gather some firewood.
And Lyudmila had been in the position to clean herself and wash her underwear.

These three logic assumptions may well be very relevant for solving the case.
If Lydmila had been cleaning herself around January 1st 15:30 pm and a blast wave had hit the ravine, it explains why she had been found with a broken ribcase (without any indents/deformation) and why she had been dressed as she had been found.
   

[GlennM]

Lyuda's candor in her diary is insightful. Other diaries give an indication through absence of commentary that the group was not otherwise conflicted. Sewing up a tent and sharing a tangerine would be amusing antecdotes. If getting water for sanitation was an issue, it is extreme to walk a half mile either way to do so. Far better to pocket a bag of sticks and a bowl to melt a little water in or near the tent to attend to ablution.

Supporting evidence from the archives of cleaning supplies on the deceased such as washcloth, a pot for heating water would support your theory. Also three people in the party is not conducive to privacy. Zolo and Lyuda sustaining similar injuries does not support privacy. Their state of undress does not reinforce the suggestion hygiene was attended to.

We need to rule out whether a pre mortem fall from a snow cornice or a post mortem crushing by an overburden of snow were the cause of the fractures.  There is nothing to support the blast theory, especially since its effects appear so selective.

[SURI]

It makes fully sense that three group members - including Lyudmila - had descended to the ravine in order to:
- fetch running water
- gather some firewood.
And Lyudmila had been in the position to clean herself and wash her underwear.

These three logic assumptions may well be very relevant for solving the case.
If Lydmila had been cleaning herself around January 1st 15:30 pm and a blast wave had hit the ravine, it explains why she had been found with a broken ribcase (without any indents/deformation) and why she had been dressed as she had been found.
 

This situation would not fit the sequence of events. Who would then cut the clothes of both Yuris at the fire? The knife was found in the ravine. Those four in the ravine couldn't have been the first to suffer injuries.