Inconsistencies in photos of finding the tent

[SURI]

I think everyone had different reasons for not having shoes. Some didn't have time (Slobodin), some didn't need them (Dyatlov, Kolmogorova), others didn't consider it necessary for various reasons. And then it was no longer possible.

[Arjan]

@Ziljoe @GlennM @Suri

Ushma is a settlement where the river 'Reka Ushma' merges with the 'Reka Lozva'.

Many of us assume that the Dyatlov group had followed the Reka Lozva instead of turning left to the Reka Ushma.

The next screenprint of Google maps shows that it is unavoidable to at least note Ushma while travelling along the Reka Lozva.
 


I am pretty certain that the winter population of Ushma had differ from the summer population: in wintertime more Mansi may have stayed in Ushma.

Personally I have been triggered by Ushma, because in 2020 I wished to explore the scenery with MS Flight Simulator 2020.
The only quick manner to find this scenery on the map in MS Flight Simulator was looking for Ushma; Vizhay, Ivdel did pop up only after zooming many times more.

While exploring the scenery by air, I had been alerted by the steepness of the ascend from the storage to the tent site, because I have crashed a few times with a lightwing airplane because it could not climb fast enough in the valley at the end of the river/stream near the storage.
Studying the maps available on Dyatlovpass.com showed that the ascend from the storage in the direction to the tentsite was some 30 % over a distance of 1 km. A lightwing airplane is not able to do so.

Walking on socks
Within my timeline, the group member - except Semyon, Lyudmila and Thibo - had descended to the ravine cedar on socks, because part of the surface between the tent site and cedar/ravine had been icy (caused by the pressure wave melting the snow that had refrozen as ice).

Remark: Within this timeline:
- Semyon, Lyudmila and Thibo had descended before the pressure wave had hit the area. Semyon and Thibo had been found with footware different from socks.
- Lyudmila had been standing next to the stream to clean herself
- the three had descended for running water and firewood to be brought back to the tent site.

Three sources support the icy surface between the tent site and the ravine/cedar:
- the photo in question from the tentsite: some 50 meters below starts a band with hardly any snow
- if I remember well, a member of the search party had stated that the stone band between the tent site and ravine had been icy. He assumed that the group member may well have slided downhill, to be injured while being stopped by stones
- Zinaida in the mortuary with natural fibers affixed to her trousers. As explanation for lying down on a thin layer of ice with natural fibers that had melted by her body temperature still around 25 degrees Celsius, while the natural fibers had been refrozen affixed to her trousers.

The group member did not have crampons with them, so they had walked on socks.
Quote from a Newpaper article in "The Guardian":
"Wearing socks over footwear significantly reduced the self-reported slipperiness of icy footpaths and a higher proportion of sock-wearers displayed confidence in descending the study slopes. The only falls occurred in people who were not wearing (external) socks."
See: https://www.theguardian.com/education/2010/mar/09/improbable-research-icy-socks-over-shoes#:~:text=This%20one%20did.,wearing%20(external)%20socks.%22

[Arjan]

Sorry, problems with browser

[Arjan]

Sorry, problems with refreshing browser

[Ziljoe]

@ Arjan . Again many thanks.

I don't agree with the photos being manipulated at this point.

There were several settlements of Mansi called villages. Ushma maybe being one but I think it was like 4 huts?. Why would they go there?

[Ziljoe]

To add, I'm aware that other tourists were entertained at some of these little groups of Mansi huts. I too dable in the FS but haven't for a while. I have flown in real life in small planes and I would not fly low and expect to climb, particularly in closed valleys where any stall or turbulence could occur. Experienced that at 3000ft in good weather over the top of a mountain. The plane can drop .

[SURI]

Arjan, that still doesn't explain why Slobodin only had one shoe. Going with only one shoe is illogical.

[Arjan]

@Suri (and others)

Let's start a thought experiment while assuming that the timeline of the last two days - as I have included in a pdf-file in a separate post - is correct.

9:00 am Zinaida and Rustem walk from the tent site to the ravine adequately clothed - both wearing a pair of felt shoes - to the ravine

After some 100 meters both encounter and icy surface: both take of their felt shoes and continue on socks while carrying their felt shoes in one hand

Some distance later both encounter a snow surface again (the band where Rustem had lost consciousness for the last time in his life around 1500 pm the same day).
Remark: Rustem had been found with his face covered with a so-called ice-bed.

At the beginning of this snow surface, both had put their felt shoes on again (wool isolates rather well even when being wet)

9:30 am both had found four lifeless bodies in the den/ ravine: the ravine had been icy due to the pressure wave. Both had taking of their felt shoes before entering the ravine.
They had placed/positioned the bodies in postures as found by the second search party.
While trying to lift Lyudmila out of the ravine, Rustem had slipped and fallen head down in the ravine, resulting in a crack in his skull.

During this work, they had left their felt shoes apart.

They had carried their felt shoes while moving to the cedar, and both had placed both Yuri's next to each other.

Zinaida and Rustem had taken only one felt shoe and walked to a snow area again.
During these very traumatic activities three felt shoes had got lost.

Returning to the snow surface, Rustem had put one felt shoe on.
They had found Igor and both had carried him a small distance.

15:00 pm Rustem collapsed and died due to brain damage (see pdf-file for being turned face down by Zinaida)

Following this thought experiment, does it make sense that three felt shoes get lost while finding seven other dead group members?

Illogic: no.
Full sound proof: no as well.
But it makes sense in my opinion.

[Arjan]

@Ziljoe

I have found a source for Mansi living in winter resorts, while being semi-nomadic in late spring, summer and autumn.
The Wikipedia page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mansi_people states:
 
Traditional livelihood
The Mansi were semi-nomadic hunters and fishermen. Some Mansi also raised reindeer. A few Mansi engaged in agriculture (cultivating barley) and raised cattle and horses.[14]

During the winter, the Mansi lived in stationary huts made out of earth and branches at permanent villages. During the spring, the Mansi moved towards hunting and fishing grounds, where they constructed temporary rectangular-shaped shelters out of birch bark and poles

Looking at Google maps, I would not be amazed if Ushma had far less inhabitants than in wintertime.
If the group might not have noted Ushma, Ushma had highly likely noted this group of travellers.

Without any other source of 'recreation', very probably the Mansi had looked at the group passing by, or even taking a long break while gathering the long lists of Mansi words in the diaries.

It makes sense.

The long list of Mansi words without getting in touch with Mansi, does not make sense.

[Ziljoe]

@ Arjan, thanks .

I'm aware of some of the Mansi culture and living , always good to receive more, others here might be able to share their knowledge too.

We know that a number of the Mansi families were interviewed in the case files and if the Ushma village was active I would have thought they would have been interviewed as they were the closest by the sounds of it to the Dyatlov route.

Some of what you are putting forward is new and that's refreshing. Obviously you will get asked questions by all of us but that's just the nature of the forum . No e of us have solved it and some theories seem more plausible than others.

I will continue to re read the case files and see if I can add anything to the potential of this village.

Respect to you for sharing your ideas , an interesting take on things .

I do wonder if they learnt some of the language earlier or the old man with the horse and sledge taught them. I believe he stayed in the hut at 2nd northern with them . The time for them traveling to 2nd northern and the old man's return time seems to be the same other than one hour shorter on his return. So that seems to fit.

[Axelrod]

Settlement Ushma appeared later, in 196X.
It was absent in 1959.

[Arjan]

I have reread the English versions of the relevant diaries about the daytrip from Vizhai to 2nd settlement

Zinaida:
Long list of Mansi words

The whole day went, in front of the horse, behind the horse on the river Lozva. They often flew to ice, cleaned skis. They came already in the dark for a long time looking for a hut with windows and doors. 2nd North is an abandoned village, nobody lives here at all, and what beautiful places!

Lyudmila
We learn some Mansi words from the guys.

Limited list of Mansi words, quite similar to beginning of the list in Zinaida's diary

(a turn seems missing? - note.)

Group diary
We waited until 4:00 pm.
Before that we bought four loaves of bread. Soft warm bread. We ate 2 loaves.
The horse is slow. What a pleasure to go without backpacks.
We covered 8 km in 2 hours. (River Ushma).
It's getting dark.

Rustem
Long list of Mansi words, mainly reflecting the list in Zinaida's diary.

Yuri Yudin
Many don't last, - they quit They work The majority has primary school or no education at all. But there are widely erudite and even If you meet them in the city, you would never have thought that this person all his time in the taiga.

27 We spent the night in the hut of the 2nd Northern settlement.

Village Vizhay - camp (???)

Inconsistencies

Activity on January 26th

Zinaida's diary: The whole day went, in front of the horse, behind the horse on the river Lozva
Group diary: We waited until 4:00 pm and River Ushma

Group diary: 2 hours and 8 km later, it should be at least 18:00 pm. Sunset had been around 17:00 pm, so it ought to be rather dark, unless the moon had been fully shining and the sky without clouds.

Yuri Yudin: There are question marks behind  'Village Vizhay - camp': was this entry referring to his return trip? No date is given.

My temporal conclusions:
Mentioning two names of the river followed is possible.

The fact remains that Zinaida had been the full day behind and before the horse, while according to the group diary the group had waited until 16:00 pm

Personally I think Zinaida's entry in her diary makes more sense.

[Ziljoe]

I think the diaries are confusing because of when and how they write them. They may be written on the go , or at the end of the day as they jot down the highlights of the days activities.

They admit that they arrive at the settlement in the dark, they say the horse caused the delay and I think this was it was used for other work. I read just the other day that they didn't arrive until 11 pm at 2nd north.( Lost where I read this, perhaps yudins later statements) .

It takes the same time for uncle Slava to travel back and forth. That's between 6 and 7 hours each way. This is consistent with the his own statement.

The Mansi words seem to be learned from the guys that are teaching them the songs as they wait for the horse to be ready. See below

"...We talked with Ognev. He knows a lot and is interesting with him, now he talks about where we are going and more like this. This, in my opinion, is the most interesting object here on the site. He has such a long red beard, although he is only 27 years, he looks older. And then there is Valya, who plays the guitar well (many play) and about whom I jokingly said that I like him. Now most of the guys sit here and sing songs to the guitar, on the occasion that they do not work today. It seems this is the last time we heard so many good new songs. But we hope that Rustik will live up to the challenge. We learn some Mansi words from the guys....



I think the reference to river Ushma is the distance to the where river Ushma meets the river lozva  , for example, they have travelled 2 hours and covered 8 clicks , it will be around 6pm and getting dark as they say. This is one third of the journey, they have 16km to go. This takes 5 hours appointment which gives us 11pm  arrival at 2nd north. 7 hours to travel the 24 km. They stay up late talking , all seems well and adds up.

I think Yuri Yudin  is talking about his return trip at vizhay ( after leaving the group), he wants to buy medication but the chemist is asking him to not use his resources as he needs them for the children. ( Or they are asking him to send some from Ivdel?)

"An unusually polite gentle, kind person. His wife is German, very affable and hospitable. They are really short of medicine and keep what they have for the children. He begged me to get penicillin in tablets from Ivdel, as they have very little. It is difficult for them to get good medication."

[Ziljoe]

@ Arjan.

To try and summarise how I see it.

They spend the day waiting for the horse to be free, they buy bread and eat two loaves , they sing songs with the locals , who , although have little formal education have a lot of knowledge and skills . The locals seem to take the day off their work. The Dyatlov group learn Mansi words from the locals and get given advice about the trail and mountains ahead.

The mouth of the river Ushma runs into the river they are following (the river lozva). The river joins at approximately 8 km from their starting point into their journey  , 2hours , or 8km is 1/3 of the total horse journey. Everything thing fits apart from 1 hour missing and that's potentially because of inaccurate time keeping or having to stop to clean the skis .

[OLD JEDI 72]

I think everyone had different reasons for not having shoes. Some didn't have time (Slobodin), some didn't need them (Dyatlov, Kolmogorova), others didn't consider it necessary for various reasons. And then it was no longer possible.

Or deep snow pulled some off.

[OLD JEDI 72]

Is it really possible that the tent was knifed from the outside by a band of rogue Mansi? Without any real CSI type forensics, how can the word of an old seamstress that it was from the inside be trusted and deemed true?

Let's try some critical thinking..

What if the cuts came from the outside and the tent was reversed at some point after being transported or what if it was reversed in the first place by the hikers when they pitched the tent? And then when it got to the point where the "expert" seamstress was, it was made rightside in?

[SURI]

It's not just a problem with shoes. I don't believe the other members of the group would have gone looking for their friends without warm clothes - without a jacket. Especially when the last two, according to you, slept until morning in a frozen, cut-up tent. And you still haven't revealed who turned Kolmogorova.

[Ziljoe]

Is it really possible that the tent was knifed from the outside by a band of rogue Mansi? Without any real CSI type forensics, how can the word of an old seamstress that it was from the inside be trusted and deemed true?

Let's try some critical thinking..

What if the cuts came from the outside and the tent was reversed at some point after being transported or what if it was reversed in the first place by the hikers when they pitched the tent? And then when it got to the point where the "expert" seamstress was, it was made rightside in?

There are many cuts and rips, the tent basically has only one way to pitch due to sewing and flaps, attachment points etc. It was reported that the tent was set up correctly as per the requirements for winter camping.

The tent cuts were looked at closely after the observation it might have been cut from the inside. It concluded that there were three cuts from the inside and other attempts were made but didn't penatrate. It is debatable if it was three separate cuts because the later tears or cuts seem to go across the assumed internal cut/cuts.

This fits with the concept of the tent collapsing and a horizontal cut from the inside being attempted from the entrance to enable exit of the tent .

Obviously this doesn't rule out that searchers could have reached in with a knife to make cuts from the underside when first trying to look inside or empty the contents.

There is debate if the entrance was still buttoned up when the tent was found . It must be remembered that the searchers were trying to find their friends alive. When the first 4/5 bodies were found there was nothing to suggest that they died by injuries from other people . This is the mindset of the first day of the search if we believe that there is no cover up. The case files in their entirety seem to echo this narrative, they didn't know what they would find and they were hoping that someone had broken a leg and that was the delay. It was a race against time and on the second day after the discovery of the tent,they found the first bodies and the reality hit them. From then , many of the statements echo our own theories , that's, wind, avalanche, Mansi, light orbs etc. The searchers speculate amoungest themselves.

They find no sign of outsiders but plenty of evidence of the hikers moving towards the ceder , making a fire etc.

I think all the footwear is accounted for, none of the boots were missing or lost in snow.

[SURI]

The Mansi words seem to be learned from the guys that are teaching them the songs as they wait for the horse to be ready. See below

"...We talked with Ognev. He knows a lot and is interesting with him, now he talks about where we are going and more like this. This, in my opinion, is the most interesting object here on the site. He has such a long red beard, although he is only 27 years, he looks older. And then there is Valya, who plays the guitar well (many play) and about whom I jokingly said that I like him. Now most of the guys sit here and sing songs to the guitar, on the occasion that they do not work today. It seems this is the last time we heard so many good new songs. But we hope that Rustik will live up to the challenge. We learn some Mansi words from the guys....
[/

I agree

[Osi]

Where you first insert the tip of the knife into the tent fabric. This entry hole varies depending on the size of the knife. Only a criminal investigator (perhaps someone with some knowledge of the subject) can determine whether the punctured fibers are facing inward or outward. If the cut is horizontal or vertical, if the tent fabric is stretched outward (this way >>>>>>)... I don't think it's possible to determine whether this long cut was made from the inside or the outside.

[Ziljoe]

Where you first insert the tip of the knife into the tent fabric. This entry hole varies depending on the size of the knife. Only a criminal investigator (perhaps someone with some knowledge of the subject) can determine whether the punctured fibers are facing inward or outward. If the cut is horizontal or vertical, if the tent fabric is stretched outward (this way >>>>>>)... I don't think it's possible to determine whether this long cut was made from the inside or the outside.

I'm sure there's a more detailed explanation somewhere, so many of the topics are duplicated.

https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-388-392

The tent was sent for forensic viewing. In the photos it describes the difference in a tear and a cut, the cuts from the inside are what interests them. You have to zoom into the photos to see the arrows in red and blue. It's not only about the fibers poking outward that implies the tent was cut from the inside but the fact that the dye ( colour) of the fiber's before the cut is marked along the same line. So , whatever and whoever made the cuts , it started on the inside of the tent canvas , the cutting tool or object was against the surface , as it moved it scratched the fiber's before penetrating the canvas along the same line as the cuts.

Likewise , because the fiber's were cut diagonally , they conclude they were cuts and not rips. The fiber's would rip differently as shown in the photos.

So for all the cuts and rips in the tent , they concluded that three cuts were made from the inside. That is all they can tell and it is based on them looking closely at the fiber's and it is not some old lady having a guess.

This in itself shows that the investigation was trying to understand what might have happened and at least taking some details . If we can believe those involved in the search , the case files represent the unfolding of something that no one understood , there seems to be no covering up .   

[OLD JEDI 72]

Is it really possible that the tent was knifed from the outside by a band of rogue Mansi? Without any real CSI type forensics, how can the word of an old seamstress that it was from the inside be trusted and deemed true?

Let's try some critical thinking..

What if the cuts came from the outside and the tent was reversed at some point after being transported or what if it was reversed in the first place by the hikers when they pitched the tent? And then when it got to the point where the "expert" seamstress was, it was made rightside in?

Cool story bro.

There are many cuts and rips, the tent basically has only one way to pitch due to sewing and flaps, attachment points etc. It was reported that the tent was set up correctly as per the requirements for winter camping.

The tent cuts were looked at closely after the observation it might have been cut from the inside. It concluded that there were three cuts from the inside and other attempts were made but didn't penatrate. It is debatable if it was three separate cuts because the later tears or cuts seem to go across the assumed internal cut/cuts.

This fits with the concept of the tent collapsing and a horizontal cut from the inside being attempted from the entrance to enable exit of the tent .

Obviously this doesn't rule out that searchers could have reached in with a knife to make cuts from the underside when first trying to look inside or empty the contents.

There is debate if the entrance was still buttoned up when the tent was found . It must be remembered that the searchers were trying to find their friends alive. When the first 4/5 bodies were found there was nothing to suggest that they died by injuries from other people . This is the mindset of the first day of the search if we believe that there is no cover up. The case files in their entirety seem to echo this narrative, they didn't know what they would find and they were hoping that someone had broken a leg and that was the delay. It was a race against time and on the second day after the discovery of the tent,they found the first bodies and the reality hit them. From then , many of the statements echo our own theories , that's, wind, avalanche, Mansi, light orbs etc. The searchers speculate amoungest themselves.

They find no sign of outsiders but plenty of evidence of the hikers moving towards the ceder , making a fire etc.

I think all the footwear is accounted for, none of the boots were missing or lost in snow.

[Osi]

Ziljoe
If a scratch is detected in the fabric before the cut start hole, this confirms that the tent was cut from the inside. Thank you for the information.

[Ziljoe]

Osi, thank you

Please be aware that this is only my interpretation of what's being said in the case files. There are other posts on the forum discussing much of what we have all asked and said.

Much of what I say is combined from other people's work or thoughts and for me it falls into the logical reasoning.

For example, the tent is definitely cut and has definitely been ripped . The investigation did seem to do some forensics on the tent and it's cuts ( we have this in the case files). Again it is a concern to me that the case files are in English and there is no Russian copies of the transcript. This can raise a question mark over its authenticity.

[RMK]

Again it is a concern to me that the case files are in English and there is no Russian copies of the transcript. This can raise a question mark over its authenticity.

Huh?  Do you mean on this page, https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-388-392 ?  You need only click on the little Russian flag icons on that page to see what appear to be the original Russian-language documents.

[Ziljoe]

Again it is a concern to me that the case files are in English and there is no Russian copies of the transcript. This can raise a question mark over its authenticity.

Huh?  Do you mean on this page, https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-388-392 ?  You need only click on the little Russian flag icons on that page to see what appear to be the original Russian-language documents.

@ RMK Sorry yes, that page.

On the photos , below the pictures, it is written in English on the documents. Although this may have been translated by some other person , they are obviously not original case file documents, that means the typing style of the document and they lay out. It's the same with the combat leafy although there's what looks like the original combat leaflet in Russian and a copy with English. They both have the red number written in the top right of the case file but not in the photos of the tent case file. The number is there in a couple of photos but it's not in red.

It just means they are photos of what I assume we're in part original documents. If some documents are not orgional , how do we know any of them are or haven't been tampered with. Perhaps the original documents exist somewhere but in this instance we have to believe the person that edited these photos did so accurately but who did it in the first place and why change an orgional document? 

Edit/ to add, we now have questions arising about the authenticity of the autopsy reports and the typewriter used along with the medical terminology.

Also, there is questions regarding some of the entries in the history of Zolotaryov's life and military files . There are suspicions that they were edited at some point. Whether that was pre or post incident is unknown. We have inconsistencies everywhere, which is a frustration and one fake entry pre or post release of the documents would obviously make it impossible to understand what occured.

Sometimes I think this case has been deliberately enhanced by those that intially released it to the public for some self indulgent puzzle or self serving story for the sake of entertainment. ( I do not mean anyone here or current Investigators).   

[GlennM]

Nature was and still is unaffected by all the manmade drama.  This quest to celebrate cleverness in sleuthing, discredit the critics, obfuscate  the the facts and make money in some way, shape or form tells us more about ourselves than those hikers we discuss.

The whole point to the DPI is not so much to understand the past, but to prevent it happening again in the future. It is practically moot. In today's world,  we have communication and survival gear far beyond what was available then. When a person can blog from Everest, it is an indication of what I mean. There are really only two other meaningful considerations in the investigation as a tool for,wisdom. The first is the weather which can be predicted but not controlled. The second is common sense, which unfortunately is not so common.

To become more common sensible, we examine the DPI to weigh the pros and cons of their experience and actions. Finally, because of our limitations as humans, the best we can ever do in this context is to understand the " how" of things, never the "why". It is the "why" that sells books, truth or fiction, it matters not.