Nurse Solter...again

[GlennM]

Nurse Solter's recollections have been a source of conversation and confusion in the forum for quite some time. It occcurs to me that her report regarding the number of victims, the condition of their clothes, their gender, the treatment of their bodies ( including the autopsies) might be resolved by checking a primary source; the medical records. She may well have combined different incidents. I suggest learning if the medical records exist. Do they support her observations? There is a paper trail for each casualty that goes to hospital. There is a paper trail for all post mortems. There is a paper trail for the acquisition of burial clothes.Her testimony would be better appreciated in light of these findings.

It is curious too that the medical examiner had not been approached to recite his version of the events. With the increased notoriety of the tragedy, I would believe he would have shared his recollection with colleagues and perhaps in later years, family. They, who survive and remember would be of service to the forum.

If her recollection was faulty, the pathologist who performed the procedure can not be in two places at once.

[Axelrod]

I watched this interview with nurse Solter on video, and it seemed strange to me.
First, she says that she remembers these tourists well at the bus stop in Ivdel.
Then Navig shows her all 9 photos, and the nurse asks in surprise:
"What, all these people died?"

It seems that she did not recognize anyone. Even if we assume that she saw only trips.

[GlennM]

Thank you Axelrod,

I believe all her testimony should be verified by offical records. There is good reason to discard confused mixed messages from Nurse Solter. It was long, long ago and  she had no obligation to do anything except as instructed. She was not obligated to remember anything. Too,it was not the only thing she would do in one day, or any day of work. We are better off if we know the official reports and the testimony of other reliable sources.

Does anyone in the forum find a photo or a report of the clothes of any of the victims being particularly soiled? For that matter, how about th3 bodies themselves. I find nothingnin the superficial examination that alludes to dirt, mud and like on their bodies. You might think there would be some mention of this if any of them fell in water and got out again. What about those felt boots?

[Axelrod]

It seems to me that the correspondent Vadim Chernobrov himself does not remember well how many people were in the Dyatlov group, and where they were



CHERNOBROV: At least one man was not in the tent at that time, but was
outside the tent. There were at least 4 guys and 4 girls in the tent.

I suspect that she learned about 11 people from him.

As for the dirty ones, nurse Solter was from the Lviv (Lvov, Lvuv) region of Ukraine, where I am now. I have encountered a situation several times on the train, when women call tourists dirty for no reason. They made the same comments to tourists from the Czech Republic. Perhaps this is a feature of the Ukrainian language.

Perhaps, this is about tanned tourists. As we remember, the tourists were orange.
However, the nurse does not remember the orange color.

[GlennM]

I wonder what original hospital records remain. I wonder where specimens went.

[Axelrod]

I voiced my idea to you that the disinformation was coming not from the nurse, but from the newspaper correspondent.
The newspaper needed additional sensation. At that time, the story was less known.
In the criminal case on Sheet 201, the names Bienko and Vishnevsky are also indicated.
Yudin - 11 (gone away), Doroshenko - 12.
Perhaps Chernobrov received information about 11 participants from that place.

[Arjan]

Witness reliability

In general witnesses have different points of view/interest and different cultural backgrounds.
As example: read the reports of the investigation of an elephant in the first pages of The Little Prince by Antoine De Saint Exupèry.
One expert looks at the tail, one at the belly, one at the legs, one at the ears, one at the mouth, one at the trunk, etc., and all have different statements.

Reliability of witnesses is enhanced by:
- interview immediately after the event
- questions without bias and authority
- no new imprinting by other events that have taken place later.

Witness testimonies made many years later, may show unavoidedly a considerable/huge bias.

Personal, I regard most witness testimonies made many years later as a potential illustration of what may/might have happened.

See as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eyewitness_testimony

 

[GlennM]

Arjan, you point out how time and psychology affect recollections. I agree.
What concerns me is the ongoing updates of Dyatlovpass.com regarding the deceased hikers. We have reports of Nurse Solter's recollections as interpreted by her husband. Then again,,we have the whole business pf the written medical reports and how they lacked stamps and had unconventional verbiage.

I do not know ifnthe original, stamped medical records were archived separately and the case file records were a typewritten copy. It would seem so. The typist would be plowing down through a stack of original documents. Some deviation in the language may be inevetable, but the main body of the documents would reflect the source material.

That is my point? I think it would be easy for conspiracy advocates to claim there was a deliberate coverup of some nefarious activity on 1079. I don't think so. Why? Solter may not be reliable at all. Next, faking autopsy reports is pointless when you have the actual corpses available to verify the reports. Further, if the intent of modified reports was to deflect suspicion of foul play, then surely less would be written of the major trauma. We know from case files that the physical remains were studied and reported in detail.

At this point, I believe that the major bonecrushing damage described for the ravine 4 is owing to snow. I believe it feasable that this crushing could have very well resulted in dirty, muddy clothes, as Solter claimed.

[SURI]

I think it's important to focus on the details. For example, the theory with a fallen tree on the tent also has some cracks, because Zolotaryov, with a camera in his right hand and a compass in his left, certainly did not go to sleep and was not in the tent at the time of the incident.

[SURI]

Of course, this post points to a certain book full of conspiracies (tent in the forest, fallen tree on the tent). But Zolotaryov blocks this conspiracy.

[Ziljoe]

I think it's important to focus on the details. For example, the theory with a fallen tree on the tent also has some cracks, because Zolotaryov, with a camera in his right hand and a compass in his left, certainly did not go to sleep and was not in the tent at the time of the incident.

I suspect the book you refer to is "1079" by teddy and Igor. The book has its merits and I don't think it should be dismissed. It is a new way to look at some of the events and more precisely, the documents and other activities going on in parallel at the time of the incident.

It explains some of the inconsistency in the reports and gives a motive why it was covered up. I recommend the book because it gives us other avenues to consider.

I don't think Zolotaryov was holding his camera in one hand and a camera in another. I believe he had a compass on one wrist , not his hand. I'm not even sure if a camera was found but it's reported that the camera , or camera case was around his neck or the camera case strap was wrapped around his hand.

It was reported that he had a pen in one hand and a notebook in the other. I e never thought of this before , but due to his injuries, he wouldn't be holding anything, if it was a blast wave , a fall into a ravine, a tree falling on to him , nothing would be in his hands .

If he was actually holding anything in his hands , it would suggest that he was actually entombed by a snow collapse at that moment in time clutching what ever he was holding.

But this raises another question. If he was holding a note pad that was reported, by the investigator but was frustrated that there was nothing written in this note pad , this part of the story makes no sense either . The body's were decaying, we can see from the photos from the ravine four that they were under water, I would suspect that any note pad found would be a soggy mess after 3 months submerged. ( Something I've never thought about before or read  ) .

If Zolotaryov was holding anything in his hands , he died where he was found and sustained his injuries there and then  , either that or the stories of him holding things in his hands are made up.?

Just a thought.

[GlennM]

"The body's were decaying, we can see from the photos from the ravine four that they were under water, I would suspect that any note pad found would be a soggy mess after 3 months submerged. ( Something I've never thought about before or read  ) ."

This in and of itself would make thawing washing and redressing a decayed corpse a memorable experience. Nurse Solter claimed no such memory. It is yet another thing which confuses the issue of the post mortem treatment of the ravine 4.

Too, I think it was Lyuda's father who insisted on seeing his daughter. He fainted when the coffin was opened. Surely the nurse would remember something of the degraded condition of the remains.

Ziljoe's interpretation of the condition of any paper an pencil on Zolo's remains causes me to think that the reported pencil and paper in his posession and the Zolo recieved for writing nothing  was actually secondary hand source testimony. It may have had nothing to do with an actual pencil and paper, but rather the wish that Zolo could have  had the material, time and interest in writing something in hand before he died. In any case the writing materials were not accounted for.

[SURI]

I want to send some photos, but it's not working right now. So I have to wait.

[SURI]

So the pictures aren't working for me, so I have to do it like this.

I don't know if it's possible to tell from this photo whether Zolotaryov is holding a pencil, but the strap wrapped around his hand is clearly visible. I also think he died where he was found.

https://prosecutorspodcast.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/zolotaryov-camera-18.jpg?w=500


Another thing we didn't realize was, for example, Slobodin's position and the livor mortis spots found on the back of his body. However, he could not have died in this position on his back (with his legs in the air). Even in the morgue, their legs must be supported. Therefore, I do not assume that he was turned over by someone.

https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Rustem-Slobodin-post-mortem-12.jpg


Zinaida probably couldn't have died on her back in this position either.

https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Zinaida-Kolmogorova-post-mortem-4.jpg


And this photo may show how Nurse Solter might have perceived dirtiness. Look at Rustem's face.


https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Rustem-Slobodin-post-mortem-14.jpg

[Arjan]

Comment on '1079'

Two books on this case I use as secundairy reference source from time to time:
- a copy of '1079'
- a copy of the work by the journalists' collective Aleksej Rakitin.

Both highly recommended, although both works have their merits and flaws.

Coming back to 1079: in case the theory a stated at page 339 had taken place, then:
option 1: either the broken ribcage of Lyudmila as visible on the photo of the mortuary should be compressed, like similar like the ribcage of Semyon
Option 2: or the photo of Lyudmila in the mortuary had been manipulated in order to show her on the photo with a non-compressed ribcage.

As investigator, I cannot retrieve what factually had taken place: option 1 or option 2.

In case a heavy, relative slow moving object had hit the ribcage of Lyudmila in a fatal manner: this should be visible on the photo (or the photo has been 'photoshopped')

[Axelrod]

It seems to me that the last message has nothing to do with Nurse Solter and her testimony.
(Maybe. it shoull be a comment on Book 1079.)
Nurse Solter, say nothing about the broken ribs and their number.
I understand that readers have random thoughts, but they disappear in inappropriate topics...
For better systematization of the forum? it would be better if participants would write messages in appropriate topics.

[GlennM]

The essence of Solter's remembrance is frozen corpses including two females were undressed washed and suited up for transport. Conspiravy advocates make the claim they were undressed and fitted with some combination of original clotning and returned to where they could be discovered by others.

Twice frozen meat goes to mush. This is because the water in cells freezes and expands rupturing the cell membranes. Factor in decay too. An impartial forensic examiner will note these changes.

For me, they were not tampered with.post mortem. There were too many witnesses.

[Axelrod]

If I were to develop this idea further, I noticed that she had a very interesting handwriting.
This is when she wrote a letter to Yudin.



I can assume that it was she who wrote the combat leaflet "Evening Otorten". And not Zolotarev at all.

Let's imagine the same as:

" EVENING OTORTEN " №1:

February 1, 1959 Syndicated trade union publication of "Khibina" group

GREETING THE XXI CONGRESS WITH INCREASED BIRTHRATE AMONG HIKERS!

PHILOSOPHICAL SEMINAR on the topic of "Love and Hiking" takes place daily on the tent premises (central hall). Lectures are given by Dr. Thibeaux and post doctorate of Love Science, Dubinina.

Armenian Quiz.

Can 9 hikers get by with one stove and a blanket?

[Ziljoe]

Why would nurse solter write the combat leaflet a d how did that end up in the case files?

[Osi]

The moderate policies implemented under Khrushchev were unacceptable to Stalin's heirs. Actually; Uprisings in Hungary, Poland and Georgia, deteriorating relations with China and a major power struggle within the country. Just like Malenkov, who was prime minister in Russia, was expelled from the party and exiled as a dam manager in Kazakhstan. You know; The tragic deaths of innocent young people, promising scientists, athletes and popular politicians are used by the opposition as a means of accountability against the government. Dp; Was it actually an ordinary hypothermia accident like the young people who lost their lives on the Kola Peninsula? After the discovery of the first 5, could the speculations put forward during the 2-month period of public rebellion have encouraged someone and encouraged them to use this situation as leverage? (Like anti-Khrushchev prosecutors and experts, KGB loyal to Stalin) did they want to put the administration in a difficult situation? not actually Medical reports containing violence. Destroyed diaries, belongings, etc. Can they go this far? How possible?

[GlennM]

...or spin doctors take a naturally caused tragedy and read into it their political biases, irregardless of the truth. The huge missing piece in conspiracy arguements is the payoff. By this, I mean that that the powerful make it very clear to the powerless that behavior has its comsequences. There was none of that in the DPI. These hikers were not branded as enemies of the state,The Evening Ortoten demonstrated humorous loyalty to the State.  No, it was their administrative supervisors after the fact in the UPI who got the axe. Those people had nothing to do with sending people to their doom. The hikers were buried with honor and in a very public way. There were no street protests, or social disruption for martyrs.

Bad things happen to good people, that is all. Nothing more.

[Ziljoe]

...or spin doctors take a naturally caused tragedy and read into it their political biases, irregardless of the truth. The huge missing piece in conspiracy arguements is the payoff. By this, I mean that that the powerful make it very clear to the powerless that behavior has its comsequences. There was none of that in the DPI. These hikers were not branded as enemies of the state,The Evening Ortoten demonstrated humorous loyalty to the State.  No, it was their administrative supervisors after the fact in the UPI who got the axe. Those people had nothing to do with sending people to their doom. The hikers were buried with honor and in a very public way. There were no street protests, or social disruption for martyrs.

Bad things happen to good people, that is all. Nothing more.

A valid point and observation. If anyone was made an example of it was those that ran the the sports tourism. A number of them were reprimanded and criticism of the organisation of the hike. This included the lack of radio communication, knowing the exact route and and a lack luster attitude to acting swiftly to early concerns about the delay of the hikers return.. The message was to those in charge of such hikes and recommendations put in place.

It is difficult to tell when the case became the mystery it is now . We know tabloids like a good story to sell and the modern media are little different. The amount of YouTube and Facebook retelling of this case is numerous and they keep many of the myths alive.

[WAB]

I haven't looked here in a while, and it's still the same.
As usual, Axelrod is in his repertoire: he knows all the fakes. The main thing is to broadcast them with confidence

If I were to develop this idea further, I noticed that she had a very interesting handwriting.
This is when she wrote a letter to Yudin.



I can assume that it was she who wrote the combat leaflet "Evening Otorten". And not Zolotarev at all.

1. It's not her handwriting. Yudin showed me her letters, there is a completely different handwriting.

Here, for example: https://disk.yandex.ru/i/h6_u_YdEnjiJEA .

Compare and everything will be clear at once ...

2. that Salter wrote the leaflet “Evening Otorten” no “woodpecker” could not come up with such a thing. It requires a special talent. It's a masterpiece of fake writing.....

There is a lot more to say, but after this, all desire disappears....

[Axelrod]

Seriously speaking, the main interesting point that I noticed in the interview is that Victor Solter indicates the location of the settlement of Vtoroy Severny in a completely different place (between Ivdel and Vizhay). I drew attention to this on the diagram that Teodora made.

The first explanation is that this is a mistake. The second explanation is that it is true.
Indeed, if the settlement of Severny-2 ceased to function in 1953,
then nothing would have prevented them from making a similar settlement in another place.
Then there is complete confusion about what these settlements were doing.

[Axelrod]

Maybe it is also mistake. Map Descrimes it as Severny (Northern-1)