April 29, 2025, 06:32:28 AM
Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: An Argument For (Pro) A Fight  (Read 1104 times)

0 Members and 15 Guests are viewing this topic.

April 22, 2025, 05:15:42 PM
Read 1104 times
Offline

OLD JEDI 72


Summary

Pathologist Eduard Tumanov examined the autopsy reports and concluded that several hikers bore injuries indicative of a physical confrontation, suggesting a fight either among the group or with outsiders

Contemporary commentary highlights defensive wounds and cuts consistent with hand-to-hand combat, while the tent was found ripped open from the inside, reinforcing the notion of an internal altercation

Four bodies recovered from the stream exhibited severe internal trauma—major skull fractures and chest crush injuries—with minimal external wounds, a pattern characteristic of blast or shockwave exposure rather than post-mortem scavenging

Historical records document military explosive tests in the vicinity, including parachute-deployed mines and antimagnetic anti-tank charges, which would produce concussive forces capable of both fracturing bone internally and inciting panic that could erupt into violence

Pro Theory Overview:
This theory posits that an unexpected explosive event—most plausibly dynamite or military-grade mines—triggered a panicked scramble from the tent, precipitating a violent altercation among the hikers that left some fatally injured and others succumbing to hypothermia.

Evidence of Internal Conflict
Autopsy-Based Analysis
Eduard Tumanov, a respected pathologist involved in the case review, noted that several victims had wounds consistent with a fight occurring up to two days before death, implying conscious, aggressive behavior rather than purely disoriented flight

Defensive Injuries
Observers have pointed to bruises, lacerations, and signs of a struggle—defensive wounds on arms and hands—indicating the hikers may have turned on one another in fear or confusion

Tent Ripped from Within
Investigators found the tent’s fabric forcibly torn inward, a detail more readily explained by a frenzied internal conflict than by natural forces such as wind or avalanche

Shockwave-Like Injuries and Dynamite Hypothesis
Internal Trauma Profile
Three of the four hikers in the stream exhibited massive skull and chest fractures with no corresponding external injuries—hallmarks of high-pressure shockwave impact rather than blunt force trauma from falling or animal activity

Parachute Mine Comparisons
Parachute-deployed Soviet mines, tested in the Ural region at the time, detonate mid-air and deliver concussive blasts that shatter bone internally while leaving skin largely intact—a precise match for the observed wounds

Antimagnetic Anti-Tank Mines
Local military exercises included the use of 5 kg antimagnetic mines, whose cannonade was heard as far as 10 km away; such blasts could easily produce the shockwave necessary to both injure the hikers and trigger panic

Eyewitness Reports of Orbs and Flashes
Survivors and locals described glowing orange orbs and flashes in the sky—consistent with parachute mine flares—supporting the scenario of unexpected explosions prompting a flight from the tent



Supporting Testimony and Historical Context
Camera Film Evidence
Amateur investigators have noted that the hikers’ own film reportedly captured luminous bursts and unexplained light phenomena, which align with explosions rather than meteorological events


Sole Footprints at Scene
Forensic accounts emphasize that only the hikers’ footprints surrounded the tent—no outsider tracks—suggesting that any violence must have been internal to the group rather than an assault by external parties



Absence of Avalanche Indicators
Extensive surveys of the pass have failed to uncover signs of a full-scale avalanche, weakening natural-force hypotheses and increasing the plausibility of a sudden explosive trigger

Supporting Testimony and Historical Context
Camera Film Evidence
Amateur investigators have noted that the hikers’ own film reportedly captured luminous bursts and unexplained light phenomena, which align with explosions rather than meteorological events

Additional Group Dynamics and Internal Tensions
1. Dubinina’s “Black as Hell” Mood
Lyudmila Dubinina’s personal diary from January 1959 records that “the mood [of the group] sank… evil as hell,” suggesting a palpable, growing psychological strain as the expedition progressed

That same diary also notes complaints about tent ventilation—open windows letting in icy drafts—and unease about sleeping too close to the stove, reflecting mounting discomfort in their shelter


2. Access to Dynamite via Geology Sampling
Several members carried geology field kits, and in Soviet geological practice of the 1950s such kits often included small dynamite charges to fracture hard rock for sampling

If misused—or if a charge detonated accidentally—it could account for the concussive, shockwave-like injuries observed on the ravine-found bodies.


3. Dyatlov’s Authoritarian Leadership
Firsthand accounts describe Igor Dyatlov’s leadership style as “very tough authoritarian,” with a strict insistence that no member question his decisions
Dyatlov Pass
Under extreme stress, such rigidity can exacerbate tensions and suppress healthy dissent, potentially leading to rash collective actions.

4. Tension with Veteran Hiker Zolotaryov
Thirty-seven-year-old Semyon Zolotaryov, a World War II veteran and seasoned outdoorsman, joined the group as a late addition and commanded significant respect for his pragmatism and field experience
Dyatlov Pass

His presence and reputation may have threatened Dyatlov’s authority, sowing seeds of rivalry or insecurity.


5. Geopolitical Pressure and Ambition
Dyatlov had previously led a demanding traverse of the Caucasus Mountains, demonstrating his passion for bold, high-altitude ski expeditions
Dyatlov Pass

His drive to “exemplify the boldness and vigor of a new Soviet generation” likely fueled a no-compromise approach, where any hesitation was seen as a failure of resolve.


6. Romantic and Sexual Frictions
Within the group, Yuri Doroshenko had a history with Zina Kolmogorova, having dated her before the expedition
Dyatlov Pass

Although no explicit evidence confirms a love affair between Dyatlov and Zina, speculation persists that Dyatlov may have harbored feelings for her, creating a tense love-triangle dynamic with Doroshenko

7. Signs of Internal Conflict
Post-mortem accounts note that all hikers exhibited defensive or otherwise inconsistent injuries, “consistent with fighting with other humans,” pointing to the possibility of a group altercation before the exodus from the tent


8. Reopened Investigations and Ruled-Out Conspiracies
Modern prosecution reviews have definitively ruled out any governmental or military conspiracy behind the hikers’ deaths, underscoring that the source of trauma was likely internal to the group rather than external military activity

These added considerations—ranging from Dubinina’s bleak diary entries and geological-sampling dynamite, to Dyatlov’s uncompromising leadership, veteran rivalry, and subtle romantic tensions—contribute to a cohesive “Pro” argument that an internal breakdown and subsequent hypothermic flight, exacerbated by shockwave-style injuries (potentially from dynamite), best explain the tragic outcome at Dyatlov Pass.

Conclusion
The convergence of defensive wounds, tent damage from within, internal blast-style injuries, and documented military explosive activity offers a coherent explanation: a dynamite-like concussive event spurred panic, igniting a frenzied fight that left some hikers injured by shockwave forces and others to die of hypothermia in the ensuing chaos. This theory reconciles the peculiar autopsy findings and contextual military history, making it a compelling account of the Dyatlov Pass tragedy.
"Just the facts, ma'am."
 

April 22, 2025, 06:03:00 PM
Reply #1
Offline

OLD JEDI 72


I wrote this using AI, however, I programmed it with my arguments as if it were a high school debate, and I was taking the "Pro" stance. You will occasionally see an out-of-place term like "Dyatlov Pass" at the end of a sentence.. This was because when the AI wrote my argument, it provided sources. The Sources were unclickable hyperlinks, and I didn't delete all of them. The "Dyatlov Pass" is a direct reference to this site! So all of my evidence is here. And thank you for that. If requested, I can provide an unadulterated draft with dead links intact.
"Just the facts, ma'am."
 

April 22, 2025, 06:42:18 PM
Reply #2
Offline

Ziljoe


I think you woul need to cite the evidence of the claims. Input of data needs to be 100% correct..or admit that it's opinions and not facts.

From a brief reading it would seem much of the claims are post case files and other speculation. ?
 

April 22, 2025, 07:37:24 PM
Reply #3
Offline

GlennM


Does anyone think a bomb blast on 1079 would be seen and heard in the vicinity of Vizhay? I believe those people would see a glow in the distance and a rumble. Nobody claims the saw or heard any such thing in the reports. Yes, I do know that undetonated atomic bombs were accidentally dropped during the cold war. The possibility that bombs were dropped by accident is not an impossibility, but an improbability since physical evidence was not found on the countryside.

The injuries to the ravine 4 have been compared to blast injuries, but a crush can happen more than one way, it could be a cave in, a slip-fall from a height, a tree fall etc.

Signs of altercation does not exclude injuring oneself to keep awake, nor does it exclude trip-fall injuries. Perhaps high words were exchanges and it came to blows over a decision to abort the hike. It does not explain why the tent was abandoned.

I support the weather driven slab slide theory. Since snow drifts and melts. So too does the evidence. Then again, did any rescuer claim the tent and area were affected by a snow slide? No.

I will be steamed if a bot figures this out first.

We don't have to say everything that comes into our head.
 

April 22, 2025, 08:57:21 PM
Reply #4
Offline

Ziljoe


Does anyone think a bomb blast on 1079 would be seen and heard in the vicinity of Vizhay? I believe those people would see a glow in the distance and a rumble. Nobody claims the saw or heard any such thing in the reports. Yes, I do know that undetonated atomic bombs were accidentally dropped during the cold war. The possibility that bombs were dropped by accident is not an impossibility, but an improbability since physical evidence was not found on the countryside.

The injuries to the ravine 4 have been compared to blast injuries, but a crush can happen more than one way, it could be a cave in, a slip-fall from a height, a tree fall etc.

Signs of altercation does not exclude injuring oneself to keep awake, nor does it exclude trip-fall injuries. Perhaps high words were exchanges and it came to blows over a decision to abort the hike. It does not explain why the tent was abandoned.

I support the weather driven slab slide theory. Since snow drifts and melts. So too does the evidence. Then again, did any rescuer claim the tent and area were affected by a snow slide? No.

I will be steamed if a bot figures this out first.

I don't think there's any indication of a bomb blast , neither do.i think there's signs of an internal fight nor outsiders. All the injuries big and small seem to be a consequence of leaving the tent and then survival.. with repeated evidence given by. Post Dyatlov groups in winter , snowy mountains, it seems to be repeatedly ignored.
 

April 22, 2025, 08:58:29 PM
Reply #5
Offline

OLD JEDI 72


I think you woul need to cite the evidence of the claims. Input of data needs to be 100% correct..or admit that it's opinions and not facts.

From a brief reading it would seem much of the claims are post case files and other speculation. ?

I'm working on it, apparently I have to do stuff like:

Why the `` placeholders aren’t true hyperlinks
The `` tags you see in our conversation are internal reference markers that tell ChatGPT which source it cited; they’re not real URLs or standard Markdown links, so if you copy and paste them into another editor (GitHub, WordPress, etc.), they’ll appear as plain text and won’t be clickable.

How to turn them into clickable links
Locate the actual URL for each citation.

In the ChatGPT “Web” tool output, each reference ID (e.g. turn0search5) corresponds to a specific web page.

Click to “Open” that reference in the tool’s logs, then copy the URL from your browser’s address bar.

Choose a Markdown link style.

Inline:

md
Copy code
Evidence shows defensive wounds on the hikers [1](https://example.com/defensive-wounds-study).
Reference-style:

md
Copy code
Evidence shows defensive wounds on the hikers [1].



[1]: https://example.com/defensive-wounds-study "Defensive Wounds Study"
Autolink (shows the URL as link text):

md
Copy code
<https://example.com/defensive-wounds-study>
``` :contentReference[oaicite:0]{index=0}

Replace each placeholder.

Find `` in your draft.

Swap it out for your chosen Markdown link snippet, using the actual URL you retrieved.

Verify in your target platform.

Paste your updated Markdown into the editor where you’ll repost.

Preview or publish to confirm the links are live and clickable.

Quick reference for Markdown links
Inline links: [Link text](URL)

Reference links: Define [Label]: URL at the bottom, then use [Link text][Label] in the body

Autolinks: Surround a raw URL with < and > to make it clickable without custom link text
Medium

By extracting each real URL from the ChatGPT tool outputs and re-embedding them in one of these Markdown formats, you’ll ensure your citations remain fully functional when you repost.




Sources



Try and take my word for it for now, and don't throw the baby out with the bathwater? I'm learning.



"Just the facts, ma'am."
 

April 22, 2025, 09:00:13 PM
Reply #6
Offline

OLD JEDI 72


Does anyone think a bomb blast on 1079 would be seen and heard in the vicinity of Vizhay? I believe those people would see a glow in the distance and a rumble. Nobody claims the saw or heard any such thing in the reports. Yes, I do know that undetonated atomic bombs were accidentally dropped during the cold war. The possibility that bombs were dropped by accident is not an impossibility, but an improbability since physical evidence was not found on the countryside.

The injuries to the ravine 4 have been compared to blast injuries, but a crush can happen more than one way, it could be a cave in, a slip-fall from a height, a tree fall etc.

Signs of altercation does not exclude injuring oneself to keep awake, nor does it exclude trip-fall injuries. Perhaps high words were exchanges and it came to blows over a decision to abort the hike. It does not explain why the tent was abandoned.

I support the weather driven slab slide theory. Since snow drifts and melts. So too does the evidence. Then again, did any rescuer claim the tent and area were affected by a snow slide? No.

I will be steamed if a bot figures this out first.

I'm not a bot but I program Terminators.  thumb1
"Just the facts, ma'am."
 

April 22, 2025, 09:12:50 PM
Reply #7
Offline

OLD JEDI 72


As I said, Glenn. I programmed the AI to present a "Pro" case arguing for a fight in the tent on a High School Debate Club level and programmed my points in. It fact-checked me, I saw all of the pages flashing up. If you reread it, there is never any overstatement of anything other than a reference to the tent and an open window which were two different issues, conflated. Rather than offer opinions, why not refute something you don't approve of?
"Just the facts, ma'am."
 

April 22, 2025, 09:22:04 PM
Reply #8
Offline

OLD JEDI 72


I think you woul need to cite the evidence of the claims. Input of data needs to be 100% correct..or admit that it's opinions and not facts.

From a brief reading it would seem much of the claims are post case files and other speculation. ?

Ask and you shall receive. An index haha.

## Source Index

Below is a comprehensive index of all source material cited in our Dyatlov Pass debate. Each entry includes the reference ID, title/author, a brief description, and a clickable URL.

| Ref ID          | Title / Author                                                                                         | Description                                                                                                                           | URL                                                                                                                       |
|-----------------|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| **turn0search1**  | *Dyatlov Pass incident* (Wikipedia)                                                                    | Overview of the 1959 Ural Mountains tragedy, group composition, timeline, and official case summary. citeturn0search1               | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyatlov_Pass_incident                                                                     |
| **turn0search2**  | “The radioactive trace on the Dyatlov Pass – two conflicting opinions” (DyatlovPass.com)               | Discussion of elevated radiation readings on hikers’ clothing and implications for external forces. citeturn0search2                | https://dyatlovpass.com/radioctive-trace                                                                                 |
| **turn0search3**  | “Lyudmila Dubinina’s premonition of her tragic death” (Forum.DyatlovPass.com)                          | Excerpts from Dubinina’s diary, noting mood swings and the phrase “evil as hell.” citeturn0search3                                | https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=433.0                                                                      |
| **turn0search4**  | “Semyon Zolotaryov – Dyatlov Pass” (DyatlovPass.com)                                                   | Biographical details on veteran hiker Zolotaryov, his experience, and role in the group. citeturn0search4                         | https://dyatlovpass.com/semyon-zolotaryov                                                                                 |
| **turn0search5**  | “Yuri Doroshenko – Dyatlov Pass” (DyatlovPass.com)                                                     | Profile of Doroshenko, including past relationship with Zina Kolmogorova and group dynamics. citeturn0search5                     | https://dyatlovpass.com/yuri-doroshenko                                                                                    |
| **turn0search8**  | “Unravelling the mystery of the Dyatlov Pass” (The Boar)                                               | Analysis of skull/chest fractures inconsistent with avalanches and slope-angle data. citeturn0search8                              | https://theboar.org/2021/02/unravelling-the-mystery-of-the-dyatlov-pass/                                                   |
| **turn0search9**  | *9 Russian Adventurers…A New Theory* (Wired)                                                           | Presentation of slab-avalanche and alternative theories, including military tests. citeturn0search9                              | https://www.wired.com/story/dyatlov-pass-incident-slab-avalanche/                                                          |
| **turn0search11** | “Has an Old Soviet Mystery at Last Been Solved?” (The New Yorker)                                      | Recap of 2019 reinvestigation, slab-avalanche hypothesis, and ongoing skepticism. citeturn0search11                             | https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/05/17/has-an-old-soviet-mystery-at-last-been-solved                               |
| **turn0search12** | *Death* (DyatlovPass.com)                                                                             | Details on the recovery dates and autopsy of the four hikers found in the ravine. citeturn0search12                              | https://dyatlovpass.com/death                                                                                              |
| **turn0search13** | *The Dyatlov Pass Incident* (J.H. Moncrieff)                                                           | Case study highlighting the “disturbing injuries” on ravine bodies and external trauma patterns. citeturn0search13                 | https://www.jhmoncrieff.com/d-is-for-the-dyatlov-pass-incident/                                                            |
| **turn0search14** | “Dyatlov Pass Parachute Mine Theory” (Reddit r/AstonishingLegends)                                      | Firsthand discussion of Soviet military parachute mine tests in the Urals circa 1959. citeturn0search14                            | https://www.reddit.com/r/AstonishingLegends/comments/f3evg0/dyatlov_pass_parachute_mine_theory/                           |
| **turn0search16** | “Could an Avalanche Have Killed the …” (History – HowStuffWorks)                                        | Autopsy notes on chest and skull fractures, missing eyes and tongue, and psycho-emotional signs from recovered cameras. citeturn0search16 | https://history.howstuffworks.com/historical-events/dyatlov-pass.htm                                                      |
| **turn0search17** | “Follow-up expeditions reveal avalanches at Dyatlov Pass” (Nature Communications Earth & Environment) | 2021 modeling study validating slab-avalanche plausibility given slope characteristics. citeturn0search17                       | https://www.nature.com/articles/s43247-022-00393-x                                                                          |
| **turn0search20** | “Mystery at Dyatlov Pass” (Forbes)                                                                     | Reports on Soviet parachute mine tests near the incident timeframe and region. citeturn0search20                                 | https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidbressan/2019/02/01/mystery-at-dyatlov-pass/                                              |
| **turn0search21** | *1079 – Dyatlov Pass* (DyatlovPass.com)                                                                 | Documentation of use of 5 kg antimagnetic anti-tank mines for geological sampling in the Urals. citeturn0search21               | https://dyatlovpass.com/1079                                                                                                |

Feel free to copy this table directly—each URL is fully clickable and linked to the original source.
"Just the facts, ma'am."
 

April 22, 2025, 10:06:13 PM
Reply #9
Offline

Ziljoe


I think you woul need to cite the evidence of the claims. Input of data needs to be 100% correct..or admit that it's opinions and not facts.

From a brief reading it would seem much of the claims are post case files and other speculation. ?

Ask and you shall receive. An index haha.

## Source Index

Below is a comprehensive index of all source material cited in our Dyatlov Pass debate. Each entry includes the reference ID, title/author, a brief description, and a clickable URL.

| Ref ID          | Title / Author                                                                                         | Description                                                                                                                           | URL                                                                                                                       |
|-----------------|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| **turn0search1**  | *Dyatlov Pass incident* (Wikipedia)                                                                    | Overview of the 1959 Ural Mountains tragedy, group composition, timeline, and official case summary. citeturn0search1               | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyatlov_Pass_incident                                                                     |
| **turn0search2**  | “The radioactive trace on the Dyatlov Pass – two conflicting opinions” (DyatlovPass.com)               | Discussion of elevated radiation readings on hikers’ clothing and implications for external forces. citeturn0search2                | https://dyatlovpass.com/radioctive-trace                                                                                 |
| **turn0search3**  | “Lyudmila Dubinina’s premonition of her tragic death” (Forum.DyatlovPass.com)                          | Excerpts from Dubinina’s diary, noting mood swings and the phrase “evil as hell.” citeturn0search3                                | https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=433.0                                                                      |
| **turn0search4**  | “Semyon Zolotaryov – Dyatlov Pass” (DyatlovPass.com)                                                   | Biographical details on veteran hiker Zolotaryov, his experience, and role in the group. citeturn0search4                         | https://dyatlovpass.com/semyon-zolotaryov                                                                                 |
| **turn0search5**  | “Yuri Doroshenko – Dyatlov Pass” (DyatlovPass.com)                                                     | Profile of Doroshenko, including past relationship with Zina Kolmogorova and group dynamics. citeturn0search5                     | https://dyatlovpass.com/yuri-doroshenko                                                                                    |
| **turn0search8**  | “Unravelling the mystery of the Dyatlov Pass” (The Boar)                                               | Analysis of skull/chest fractures inconsistent with avalanches and slope-angle data. citeturn0search8                              | https://theboar.org/2021/02/unravelling-the-mystery-of-the-dyatlov-pass/                                                   |
| **turn0search9**  | *9 Russian Adventurers…A New Theory* (Wired)                                                           | Presentation of slab-avalanche and alternative theories, including military tests. citeturn0search9                              | https://www.wired.com/story/dyatlov-pass-incident-slab-avalanche/                                                          |
| **turn0search11** | “Has an Old Soviet Mystery at Last Been Solved?” (The New Yorker)                                      | Recap of 2019 reinvestigation, slab-avalanche hypothesis, and ongoing skepticism. citeturn0search11                             | https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/05/17/has-an-old-soviet-mystery-at-last-been-solved                               |
| **turn0search12** | *Death* (DyatlovPass.com)                                                                             | Details on the recovery dates and autopsy of the four hikers found in the ravine. citeturn0search12                              | https://dyatlovpass.com/death                                                                                              |
| **turn0search13** | *The Dyatlov Pass Incident* (J.H. Moncrieff)                                                           | Case study highlighting the “disturbing injuries” on ravine bodies and external trauma patterns. citeturn0search13                 | https://www.jhmoncrieff.com/d-is-for-the-dyatlov-pass-incident/                                                            |
| **turn0search14** | “Dyatlov Pass Parachute Mine Theory” (Reddit r/AstonishingLegends)                                      | Firsthand discussion of Soviet military parachute mine tests in the Urals circa 1959. citeturn0search14                            | https://www.reddit.com/r/AstonishingLegends/comments/f3evg0/dyatlov_pass_parachute_mine_theory/                           |
| **turn0search16** | “Could an Avalanche Have Killed the …” (History – HowStuffWorks)                                        | Autopsy notes on chest and skull fractures, missing eyes and tongue, and psycho-emotional signs from recovered cameras. citeturn0search16 | https://history.howstuffworks.com/historical-events/dyatlov-pass.htm                                                      |
| **turn0search17** | “Follow-up expeditions reveal avalanches at Dyatlov Pass” (Nature Communications Earth & Environment) | 2021 modeling study validating slab-avalanche plausibility given slope characteristics. citeturn0search17                       | https://www.nature.com/articles/s43247-022-00393-x                                                                          |
| **turn0search20** | “Mystery at Dyatlov Pass” (Forbes)                                                                     | Reports on Soviet parachute mine tests near the incident timeframe and region. citeturn0search20                                 | https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidbressan/2019/02/01/mystery-at-dyatlov-pass/                                              |
| **turn0search21** | *1079 – Dyatlov Pass* (DyatlovPass.com)                                                                 | Documentation of use of 5 kg antimagnetic anti-tank mines for geological sampling in the Urals. citeturn0search21               | https://dyatlovpass.com/1079                                                                                                |

Feel free to copy this table directly—each URL is fully clickable and linked to the original source.

I think you need to relearn how to use your tool.....the case files are our only base , anything outside of that is inaccurate, including individual speculation. You have chosen specific information and not All information or speculation.

It would be a great task to put in everything,but you must do so if we want a better conclusion .

You talked about to many variables earlier but all must be accounted for if you are trying to use Ai , otherwise we would all get different results.

At the moment, for want of a better anology , you are asking us all to put in numbers into a calculator from our own number collection, hit the divide, multiplication and whatever else button and press equal ....


Nope , feck it ..... I tried ....you weren't wearing a Easter bunny outfit the other day by any chance, standing next to an orange coloured guy?
 

April 22, 2025, 10:34:16 PM
Reply #10
Offline

OLD JEDI 72


Ever heard of an index?  Been to a library? Dewey Decimal? I delivered an index with fully clickable links. Stop taking the piss.
"Just the facts, ma'am."
 

April 22, 2025, 10:40:42 PM
Reply #11
Offline

OLD JEDI 72


Primary and Archival Sources
Lyudmila Dubinina’s diary entries record her mood sinking “evil as hell” in late January 1959, hinting at psychological strain within the group
Dyatlov Pass Forum
.

Dyatlov group roster and profiles list each hiker’s background, including Zina Kolmogorova, Lyudmila Dubinina, and their roles in the Ural Polytechnical Institute expedition
Dyatlov Pass
.

Recovery details (“Death” page) document the January–May 1959 discovery dates, clothing, and autopsy summaries for the four bodies found in the ravine .

Academic and Scholarly Analyses
Nature Communications study models slab-avalanche plausibility on the Dyatlov slope using 3D terrain scans and snowpack physics .

HowStuffWorks article examines autopsy notes describing internal chest and skull fractures inconsistent with blunt trauma or scavenging .

Wired’s “9 Russian Adventurers…A New Theory” compares avalanche, infrasound, and military-test hypotheses for the hikers’ injuries
Dyatlov Pass
.

The New Yorker feature reviews the 2019 reinvestigation, slab-avalanche findings, and remaining controversies
Wikipedia, la enciclopedia libre
.

Popular Media and Online Analyses
Wikipedia: “Dyatlov Pass incident” provides a comprehensive timeline, group composition, and summary of investigative conclusions
Dyatlov Pass
.

The Boar: “Unravelling the mystery of the Dyatlov Pass” offers a humanities-oriented critique of slope-angle data and injury patterns
Dyatlov Pass
.

Forbes: “Mystery at Dyatlov Pass” reports on declassified Soviet parachute-mine tests in the Urals around 1959 .

J.H. Moncrieff’s case study highlights the “disturbing injuries” on the ravine bodies and questions natural-force explanations .

Reddit r/AstonishingLegends: Parachute Mine Theory compiles eyewitness accounts of orange orbs and possible explosive flares seen near the pass .

Biographical Profiles
Igor Alekseevich Dyatlov profile outlines his background as a radio-engineering student, expedition leader, and tent‐stove designer
Dyatlov Pass
.

Semyon Zolotaryov profile details the WWII veteran’s late addition to the group and extensive field experience
Dyatlov Pass
.

Yuri Doroshenko profile notes his radio‐engineering studies, impulsive personality, and prior relationship with Zina Kolmogorova
Dyatlov Pass
.
"Just the facts, ma'am."
 

April 22, 2025, 10:42:59 PM
Reply #12
Offline

OLD JEDI 72


Below is an index of the eight thematic additions, plus two related autopsy insights, each with its source and a clickable link:

| Item                                                                                  | Source / Citation                                                                                                                                                             | URL                                                                                                                                                             |
|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| **1. Dubinina’s diary noting mood “evil as hell”**                                    | Lyudmila Dubinina’s premonition of her tragic death (Forum.DyatlovPass.com) citeturn0search0                                                           | https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=433.0                                                                                                             |
| **2. Geology sampling may include dynamite charges**                                  | Drilling and blasting (Wikipedia) citeturn5search10                                                                                                                 | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drilling_and_blasting                                                                                                             |
| **3. Dyatlov’s authoritarian leadership style**                                        | *Has an Old Soviet Mystery at Last Been Solved?* (The New Yorker) citeturn3search3                                                                               | https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/05/17/has-an-old-soviet-mystery-at-last-been-solved                                                                     |
| **4. Veteran hiker Semyon Zolotaryov’s late addition and experience**                  | Dyatlov Pass incident (Wikipedia) citeturn1search1                                                                                                                   | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyatlov_Pass_incident                                                                                                             |
| **5. Dyatlov’s ambition to exemplify Soviet boldness in his planned route**           | *Has an Old Soviet Mystery at Last Been Solved?* (The New Yorker) citeturn3search3                                                                               | https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/05/17/has-an-old-soviet-mystery-at-last-been-solved                                                                     |
| **6. Romantic/frictional love triangle between Zina and Doroshenko**                  | Rashevskaya interview (DyatlovPass.com) citeturn6search0                                                                                                            | https://dyatlovpass.com/irina-rashevskaya-3                                                                                                                     |
| **7. Defensive wounds consistent with human-on-human altercation**                     | r/Damnthatsinteresting – “All hikers were found with injuries, defensive and otherwise…” (Reddit) citeturn8search2                                          | https://www.reddit.com/r/Damnthatsinteresting/comments/1dsgera/the_dyatlov_pass_incident_nine_russian_hikers/                                                     |
| **8. Shockwave-like internal trauma (skull/chest fractures without external wounds)**  | Dyatlov Pass incident – Investigation section (Wikipedia) citeturn8search4                                                                                       | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyatlov_Pass_incident                                                                                                             |
| **9. Prosecution ruling out government/military conspiracy**                          | Prosecution agencies rule out authorities’ involvement (TASS) citeturn7search0                                                                                   | http://tass.com/society/1043155                                                                                                                                 |
| **10. Autopsy records show injuries sustained 1–2 days before death**                 | “Altercation on the pass” (Forum.DyatlovPass.com) citeturn10search3                                                                                                | https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=411.0%3Bwap2                                                                                                       |

Feel free to copy–paste this table into your repost—each URL will remain live and clickable.
"Just the facts, ma'am."
 

April 23, 2025, 07:12:29 AM
Reply #13
Offline

GlennM


No matter the analytical method, the general process is essentially the same. First, address the evidence concerning before leaving the tent is gathered and massaged. Next, the evidence after leaving the tent is gathered and massaged. Then, by extrapolating the distillations forward and backward, the investigator makes a reasonable conclusion inductively or deductively as to what happened at the tent and why.

The trouble always comes in the form of discarding data that doesn't fit the model and placing weighted emphasis on that which does. This is the long standing conundrum. Another slippery slope is the attempt to divine their thinking.

The ONLY first hand information are the diaries, and they are insufficient. All else is second hand information.

I advocate for a slab slide compelling the hikers to evacuate the tent.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2025, 10:59:16 AM by GlennM »
We don't have to say everything that comes into our head.
 

April 23, 2025, 11:06:54 AM
Reply #14
Offline

OLD JEDI 72


Wouldn't it be interesting if it's a little bit of everything? A slab was released because of an explosion from either a parachute mine, anti tank mine, or dynamite. Then there's a meltdown on Igor because he insisted on camping in such a dumb place and the proverbial caca hits the fan.
"Just the facts, ma'am."
 

April 23, 2025, 11:07:06 AM
Reply #15
Offline

Ziljoe


Ever heard of an index?  Been to a library? Dewey Decimal? I delivered an index with fully clickable links. Stop taking the piss.

Ive never heard of a Dewey Decimal but have a rough idea of the concept of libraries.

The point I'm trying to get at , is if your using selected examples and quotes from injury caused by fist fighting and explosions, then that's the exact conclusion you will get from the AI.

Closed fists , damaged knuckles and body scratches , hemorrhages are all consistent with hypothermia cases . Add extreme cold conditions , climbing trees , breaking trees , starting fires , perhaps making or digging snow holes without protected hands in sub zero conditions then these injuries could have a number of causes. They were also chopping wood and making fires the days before and received small injuries at Nord 2.

I do not know how this AI thing works but it feels like it could be used to get any outcome desired .

Perhaps the AI could be used on the injuries alone from case studies of hypothermia. Then we could see if it would be impossible for the hikers to have all these body marks from anything in the local natural conditions they were subjected too?.
 

April 23, 2025, 11:15:53 AM
Reply #16
Offline

OLD JEDI 72


Of course, it follows the users instructions. I asked it to compile me an argument for a fight amongst the hikers. I can also take the con approach or the wolverine theory for that matter. The instructions for making those hyperlinks active was way too tedious yesterday as I was a bit on the lash lol. I'll look back into it tomorrow but an index is just as good, just not as convenient. You should have seen it working, it tracked down every citation and source and I could see it flashing up. It's called ChatGPT and they have a free version, I'm using the $20 month plus plan which has access to advanced reasoning and 10 deep researchs a month. I can't wait to try that out! You can ask it to do pretty much everything. It made me a profile picture for this site that would fit without using an actual editor. Took 20 seconds lol
"Just the facts, ma'am."
 

April 23, 2025, 11:33:37 AM
Reply #17
Offline

OLD JEDI 72


Here's an argument for the wolverine theory in less than seven minutes, and at the end it makes a negative statement advocating for the snow slab or a fight lmao.

Introduction

A formal collegiate-style debate will examine whether the Dyatlov Pass hikers were driven from their tent by wildlife—specifically mustelids like wolverines or skunks, or large ungulates such as elk—rather than by more commonly proposed forces.

Affirmative Constructive (Pro–Animal Theory)
Opening Statement
The sudden, inexplicable flight of nine experienced hikers from the relative safety of their tent at night can be plausibly attributed to an acute animal‐induced panic. Defensive sprays from skunks, stealthy scent‐marking by wolverines, or a startling interaction with elk could each produce the sensory shock necessary to force rapid evacuation into subzero conditions—explaining the tent being cut from the inside and footprints in varied directions.

Citations: Skunks can spray sulfurous thiols up to 3 m with such potency they induce temporary blindness and severe irritation¹²; wolverines possess anal scent glands with complex volatiles comparable to skunk secretions³; elk roam the Urals’ forested zones and their shallow, two‐toed tracks have been noted near the campsite⁴⁵.

Argument 1: Skunk Spray as Trigger for Panic
Potent Chemical Defense. Striped skunks (Mephitis mephitis) eject a thiol‐rich spray detectable at 5.6 km and capable of causing eye irritation and temporary blindness¹.

Behavioral Response. Human encounters prompt immediate, panicked flight from enclosed spaces to avoid repeated sprays².

Tent Cut From Inside. Cutting the tent would be the quickest means of escape if spray infiltrated seams more rapidly than unzipping could permit.

Citations: Skunk spray is flammable, accurate, and can incapacitate vision¹; survivors of skunk encounters report disorientation that compels flight².

Argument 2: Wolverine Scent and Stealth Provocation
Anal Gland Secretion. Wolverines (Gulo gulo) have potent anal glands producing a pungent odor nicknamed “skunk bear,” chemically similar to other mustelids³.

Nocturnal Stealth. Their low, broad bodies and plantigrade posture allow them to climb over obstacles and investigate dens undetected³.

Persistent Odor. Unlike a single skunk spray, wolverine scent‐marks can linger, creating prolonged discomfort that would drive occupants outdoors.

Citations: Wolverines’ glandular secretions contain dozens of volatile compounds³; mustelid stealth behavior allows approach to human shelters without leaving conspicuous tracks³.

Argument 3: Elk Collision or Disturbance
Regional Presence. Elk (Alces alces) inhabit the Urals’ forested zones along with other large fauna⁴.

Tent Interaction. A curious or startled elk could brush or trip tent lines, tearing fabric and unbalancing occupants.

Footprint Evidence. Forum records document shallow, split–hoof prints interpreted as elk near the camp⁵—consistent with lighter ungulate tracks in deep snow.

Citations: Britannica confirms elk among the Urals’ richest fauna⁴; Dyatlov‐Pass forum observers have identified two-toed, shallow impressions matching elk hooves⁵.

Negative Constructive (Con–Standard Theories)
Opening Statement
The official investigation found no evidence of animal involvement. Searchers reported no non-human tracks, and the hikers’ methodical footprint patterns undercut panic due to a wildlife threat. Moreover, the severity of injuries on some bodies (crushed ribs, skull fractures) cannot be explained by animal contact.

Citations: Investigators ruled out wildlife attacks due to absence of animal footprints and the deliberate nature of tracks⁶; autopsies revealed traumatic force exceeding any likely animal encounter⁶.

Affirmative Rebuttal
Tracks Covered by Snow. Footprints of the hikers themselves were noted to be quickly obscured within 500 m by fresh snow⁷—similarly, any light elk or mustelid prints close to camp could have been erased by drifting snow.

Selective Evidence Loss. Investigators focused on human prints and may have overlooked subtle animal sign; heavy wind could homogenize fresh snow, masking non‐human prints.

Injury Explanation. Panic‐induced falls onto concealed rocks or tree roots in the dark could account for rib and skull fractures without invoking improbable military or extradimensional forces.

Citations: Search records state footprints were rapidly covered by snow⁷; mistimed forensic emphasis can obscure light animal prints⁵.

Cross-Examination
Affirmative   Negative
Q: How could skunk spray penetrate a sealed tent?   A: Tents are typically wind-tight; spray particles may not infiltrate fully.
Q: Why no skunk odor noted in official diaries?   A: Weather conditions (strong wind) could dissipate smell immediately.
Q: Could an elk actually breach tent fabric?   A: Elk avoid humans and might skirt rather than collide with a shelter.
Q: Why no animal hair found on clothing?   A: Snow and wind could remove superficial hair deposits before discovery.
Closing Statements
Affirmative
Unexplained panic, the tent cut from the inside, and varied footprint directions are coherently explained by sudden, noxious or frightening wildlife encounters. Chemical defenses of skunks or wolverines and incidental contact with elk offer a unified, natural‐world explanation that aligns with known animal behaviors and regional fauna.

Negative
The absence of direct animal evidence—no tracks, no hair, no eyewitness odor reports—and the nature of the hikers’ injuries strongly favor explanations such as snow slab collapse or internal panic, rather than wildlife provocation.

References
Wikipedia contributors. “Skunk.” Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia, 2025.

A-Z Animals. “Why Do Skunks Spray? 6 Animals That Use Smell as a Weapon.” 2023.

Wikipedia contributors. “Wolverine.” Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia, 2025.

Britannica editors. “Ural Mountains.” Encyclopædia Britannica, 2025.

Ehtnisba & Radim. “Elk(s) attack.” Dyatlov Pass Forum, April 10, 2019.

Wikipedia contributors. “Dyatlov Pass incident.” Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia, last edited April 16, 2025.

Wikipedia contributors. “Dyatlov Pass incident – Search and discovery.” Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia, 2025.










"Just the facts, ma'am."
 

April 23, 2025, 01:06:06 PM
Reply #18
Offline

Ziljoe


Interesting but it seems to be missing some arguments. The search dogs reaction when coming out of the helicopter, written statements of wolverines in tents, the 3 weeks before the searchers got there etc.

Also the input of the ravine 4 at the time of discovery. That is being found under 3meters of snow at ground level and other researchers suggesting the fractured ribs were similar to crush injuries from an avalanche or snow hole collapse and not forgetting the tree dated by teddy that fell in 1959 which could also be an explanation for many of the injuries.

Interesting concept though and maybe we can refine ?
 

April 23, 2025, 01:16:59 PM
Reply #19
Offline

OLD JEDI 72


I didn't plug in any additionals like I did for the fight argument. But this one is different in that it actually staged a mock debate for both pro and con.
"Just the facts, ma'am."
 

April 23, 2025, 01:43:00 PM
Reply #20
Offline

Ziljoe


Seems a fun project. It might be worth a shot of inputting the data without opinions of others. Start with the facts of what we think we know.

9 hikers on a hike with cross country skis

Canvas tent , pitched on low gradient slope 15-30 degrees. Temp range -10 to -35. C. Wind speed potential up to x

Bodies found ( mention raised foot prints) , frostbite burns etc

Injuries found with locations of bodies. Etc. See what happens with a neutral input but stay away from Dyatlov pass data?

I don't know if what I'm asking can be done but if we can start from neutral, then add or take away additional info like rockets, lights in the sky , outsiders 1 by 1 and see what the AI comes up with. ?

 

April 23, 2025, 03:24:00 PM
Reply #21
Offline

OLD JEDI 72


I used one of my deep researches and asked it to use reasoning and not necessarily go with the most popular theories unless it really felt it was the answer. It's been researching over an hour lol. It's been crawling across this website reading and examining photos and autopsy findings. I'll post it when it's done. Hopefully it's not so large I have to convert it to PDF. I'm not even sure if it's allowed here..
"Just the facts, ma'am."
 

April 23, 2025, 03:39:26 PM
Reply #22
Offline

Ziljoe


Go with it and see what we get. Does only search English, or does it do all languages? ..

If the www crashes tomorrow we will know it's you! Lol
 

April 23, 2025, 04:19:12 PM
Reply #23
Offline

OLD JEDI 72


I think there's too much text to paste. I'm getting an error, and it's telling me to contact an admin. And I don't know how to post a PDF. Bummer. It blames the snow slab and a second collapse of a second den. Why would they be digging a separate den with a good one with pine flooring not three feet away?
"Just the facts, ma'am."
 

April 23, 2025, 04:54:30 PM
Reply #24
Offline

Ziljoe


I think there's too much text to paste. I'm getting an error, and it's telling me to contact an admin. And I don't know how to post a PDF. Bummer. It blames the snow slab and a second collapse of a second den. Why would they be digging a separate den with a good one with pine flooring not three feet away?

The den and where the ravine 4 are in a window of 6 meters or less I think. What I mean and think to be correct is the den with wooden flooring from the cut/ snapped young trees was no further than 6 meters but could be less. The possible reasons for digging a second den has a number of variables, one being, as they were building the flooring for a den( which makes sense for surviving a period of time in the cold)  there may have been an natural snow cave over the ravine that was discovered whilst they were making the initial den. It is this cutting of the natural snow  cave by using feet and arms to elongate the natural formed snow arch that may have brought a mass of snow down upon them ,causing the injury of the ravine 4. This is not my idea alone, it was suggested before I entered the debate by several sources. So a den with wood flooring is good  but a den with a roof is better.

So perhaps the algorithms or whatever are picking up on this theory.
 

April 24, 2025, 03:43:23 AM
Reply #25
Offline

OLD JEDI 72


It seems that the R4's injuries would be more explainable if they had fallen from a collapsed cornice as opposed to snow falling on them. Or an explosive shockwave.  How do you reconcile the lack of soft tissue damage but being all busted up on the inside?
"Just the facts, ma'am."
 

April 24, 2025, 04:50:39 AM
Reply #26
Offline

Ziljoe


It seems that the R4's injuries would be more explainable if they had fallen from a collapsed cornice as opposed to snow falling on them. Or an explosive shockwave.  How do you reconcile the lack of soft tissue damage but being all busted up on the inside?

It is difficult for sure and is much debated . However, the ravine 4 are found at ground level , or close to it , I think there was a report of about 30cm of snow below them but that would only be their lower parts as we can see that the water was flowing over the upper parts of the bodies.

I think the major injuries are all on the side towards the ground. The skull fracture and broken ribs are against the hard ground. This is not how you would lay injured people , so that for me rules out them being injured at the tent , if they could even have walked the distance.

If we imagine that the bodies were lying on their side in mid air and dropped in the same pose as they were found onto hard ground, we could see how there could be broken ribs and fractured skull. We know people can't hover in mid air , so that can't of happened.

Naturally we look for other possibilities,

 1)explosion

2) injured at the tent site by a snow slab .

3) that a tree fell on them.

4) they were clubbed or beaten.

5) that they fell out of the tree when getting branches for wood or hiding from someone/thing.

6) that a snow cave collapsed on top of them where they lay.

7) that they fell the 3 meters from a possible cornice( some people don't like the word cornice to describe the ledge at the ravine) at the ravine .

All of the above have experts saying that these are possible and others that say that they are not possible. Or to be fair , experts may have been misquoted in their comments by media sources reporting what was said to make a more sensational mystery . This will cause a problem in using AI as it can't differentiate between someone trying to sell something for views or  factual evidence/opinion.

From the above hypothetical possibilities for the ravine 4 injuries, I find a snow collapse causing crush injuries the most likely. We have a mass of snow above them of up to 3 meters and 4 bodies at ground level lying across the path of the stream. That's a lot of energy right in front of us that may have been spent .

 

April 24, 2025, 05:36:20 AM
Reply #27
Offline

OLD JEDI 72


The AI has gotten pretty amazing, it will differentiate if you tell it to. For example, its argument FOR an explosive event and fighting was programmed by me, it used any source. However, if I told it to only cite facts, not opinion it would only do that. The free version might not but the paid GPT's are advanced. I could also tell it to write a report and present it as Sgt Joe Friday, complete with lingo and illustrations lol. I kid you not. But you kinda glossed over the lack of physical injuries matching the trauma, "It is difficult for sure and is much debated." Just tell me what you think. Why wouldn't the snow collapse, or slab injuries inflict massive bruising?
"Just the facts, ma'am."
 

April 24, 2025, 05:49:38 AM
Reply #28
Offline

OLD JEDI 72


This took 4 minutes lol. The speech bubbles are a bit off and some bad grammar, and it misspelled your name but hey, I could have fixed it but the artwork changes sometimes lmbo.

"Just the facts, ma'am."
 

April 24, 2025, 06:18:06 AM
Reply #29
Offline

Ziljoe


Sorry , I didn't mean to gloss over anything , I'm not sure what you're asking.

I don't think at this moment in time a slab caused the broken ribs or skull. I am also no expert on bruising. I don't think an instant force from the snow above would cause bruising on that side of the body, perhaps so on the contact side with the ground. I'm sure it has been explained somewhere . The nature of the force is all over the body and the ribs are the weakest part .

The AI is not arguing for an explosive event and fighting, you are arguing for an explosive event and fighting and programming the AI? Is this correct? I'm still not understanding what is so great if this is the case.