An Argument For (Pro) A Fight

[OLD JEDI 72]

Sorry , I didn't mean to gloss over anything , I'm not sure what you're asking.

I don't think at this moment in time a slab caused the broken ribs or skull. I am also no expert on bruising. I don't think an instant force from the snow above would cause bruising on that side of the body, perhaps so on the contact side with the ground. I'm sure it has been explained somewhere . The nature of the force is all over the body and the ribs are the weakest part .

The AI is not arguing for an explosive event and fighting, you are arguing for an explosive event and fighting and programming the AI? Is this correct? I'm still not understanding what is so great if this is the case.

I guess it being great is a matter of perspective, but what I'm trying to point out how it differentiates, or not. What I think makes it great is the speed and time it saves. Also, I'm thinking of creating my own GPT and when I'm configuring it I am going to make it think it is Sherlock Holmes with his personality, everything. That should be a riot! Something new to play with.

[Ziljoe]

Unfortunately I think it has already been done , perhaps name it Dr joseph bell ?

I'm not sure if it saves speed and time if you are using it in a professional capacity, one error and it's worthless. I can see it's uses but it's an on going process . If I wanted AI to argue any of the Dyatlov cases , I'm sure I could make it do so.

[OLD JEDI 72]

Unfortunately I think it has already been done , perhaps name it Dr joseph bell ?

I'm not sure if it saves speed and time if you are using it in a professional capacity, one error and it's worthless. I can see it's uses but it's an on going process . If I wanted AI to argue any of the Dyatlov cases , I'm sure I could make it do so.

I really wonder about that.

[OLD JEDI 72]

Somebody nicked some booze on the train. I bet it was Igor.

[ahabmyth]

By the sound of it if there was going to be some bad blood it would be between Igor and Zolo two leaders of men, and just maybe Zolo didnt like taking orders from a guy 15yrs his younger but more experienced Igor as we could see in the picture off Zolo on the frozen river on the way to Kolat Syakhl.

I feel that Zolo would have been used to taking orders being in the army but I suppose with his freedom from them, he has unleashed new freedoms hinself..
We can but dream.

[OLD JEDI 72]

This is from the unknown diary and shows a certain degree of tyranny on Dyatlov's part and apathy from Lydia and anger towards her from the others. This was a group about to meltdown.

January 24, 1959

Last night, about 9-00 we boarded the train №43. At last. There is 10 of us. Slavik Bienko didn't come, they didn't let him. We are going with Blinov group. Fun. Songs. Around 8 am we arrived in Serov. We were not allowed to stay on the train station, the train to Ivdel is at 6-30 pm. We are looking for a room. We are trying to get into the club (to the right of the dining room of the station) and school, but fail. Finally he (? not sure about the identity) finds school number 41 (about 200 meters from the train station), where we were very well received.

January 30.

In the morning it was 17° now it is getting colder. Those on duty (S. Kolevatov and K. Tibo are repeating their duties as a punishment for slowing the group yesterday) took a long time to start a fire. In the evening it was decided that we will leave the tent exactly 8 minutes after waking up. Therefore, all have been awake and waiting for the command. But it is useless. Around 9:30 in the morning we began slowly to rise. Nick T. is joking about something in the morning. Everyone is reluctant to get up.
And the weather! In contrast to the rest of the warm days - today is a sunny cold day. The sun appears playful.
Today as yesterday were are following the path of Mansi. Sometimes Mansi writings appear on trees. In general, all sorts of obscure mysterious characters. There is slogan for ​​our trek, "In a country of mysterious signs". If we knew these letters, it would be possible, without any doubt, to go down the path, confident that it would lead us to the right place. Here the trail takes us to the shores of the river. We lose track. In the future, the trail follows the left bank of Auspiya river, but the team of deer crossed the river and we are going through the woods. At the first opportunity we will turn back to the river. As it is easier to follow it. At approximately 2 pm we stop for a lunch. Dried meat, guest crackers, sugar, garlic, coffee, stocked in the morning - that's our lunch.
Good mood.
A couple more hours - and we will stop at 5pm for the night. We have been looking for a place, then we returned about 200 meters back. Charming place. Deadwood, high pines, in short, everything you need for a good night.

2.

Lyuda quickly got tired and sat down by the fire. Nick Tibo changed his clothes. He began to write a diary. The law is that until all the work is done, do not approach the fire. And so they had a long argument, of who will sew the tent. Finally K. Tibo gave up and took a needle. Lyuda remained seated. And we sewed the hole (and there were so many that there was enough work for all except two attendants and Lyuda. Guys are terribly outraged.
Today is the birthday of Sasha Kolevatov *. Congratulations. We give him a tangerine, which he immediately divided into 8 pieces (Lyuda went into the tent and did not come out until the end of the dinner). So another day of our trek went well.

[sarapuk]

I wrote this using AI, however, I programmed it with my arguments as if it were a high school debate, and I was taking the "Pro" stance. You will occasionally see an out-of-place term like "Dyatlov Pass" at the end of a sentence.. This was because when the AI wrote my argument, it provided sources. The Sources were unclickable hyperlinks, and I didn't delete all of them. The "Dyatlov Pass" is a direct reference to this site! So all of my evidence is here. And thank you for that. If requested, I can provide an unadulterated draft with dead links intact.

AI is the rage these days but its very early days. No doubt it will improve rapidly as more and more people use it and improve it. So well done for making a start.

[sarapuk]

Many of the injuries could have been caused by fighting or defending, but there is obviously little to go on to prove it. And some injuries are bizarre, not likely to have been caused by fighting or defending.

[GlennM]

When AI decodes the Voynich manuscript,  I'll give it more credence to a PDI solution . Humans analyze, bots aggregate.We have done remarkably well at both.

[OLD JEDI 72]

When AI decodes the Voynich manuscript,  I'll give it more credence to a PDI solution . Humans analyze, bots aggregate.We have done remarkably well at both.

I program my bot with my arguments, and I've been letting people know when. It gathers information at incredible speeds and I'll give it a mission. Explosive theory, Karmen Vortex, Slab Slide, Fight and then have it compile the pros and cons. It also helps me absorb the info because unlike a human teacher, it never breaks my b@lls and it's proving a point I am asking for or that I have a "feeling" about.

[ahabmyth]

Many of the injuries could have been caused by fighting or defending, but there is obviously little to go on to prove it. And some injuries are bizarre, not likely to have been caused by fighting or defending.

Yes this is a hypothesis and yes anyone would agree, but of course there are other ways these injuries could have happened. I think the main problem had been the fact of if indeed this was the case that because of the degree of cold they wouldn't feel their injuries until they felt senseless.  But where when and why could this have happened. Eg Fight between Igor and Zolo over the death of ?. I can only envisage a fight happening under this circumstance.

[OLD JEDI 72]

Seriously, all it would take for these young kids to lose the plot is a couple of shots of straight Russian bodka. I realize I spelled odka wrong, but my (rhymes with b) button doesn't work for some weird reason. Someone rolled the drunk on the train. I really don't think Yuri Yudin told the truth and protected what he thought was their honor. The group was split for a reason. You speak of "liquor stoebs," Ahab, would it be out of the realm of possibilities that eben if Yudin didn't procure legit booze (which is still potent to kids), what if they/ a few drank grain alcohol? Paradoxal undressing isn't such a paradox watching drunk people.

[ahabmyth]

Seriously, all it would take for these young kids to lose the plot is a couple of shots of straight Russian bodka. I realize I spelled odka wrong, but my (rhymes with b) button doesn't work for some weird reason. Someone rolled the drunk on the train. I really don't think Yuri Yudin told the truth and protected what he thought was their honor. The group was split for a reason. You speak of "liquor stoebs," Ahab, would it be out of the realm of possibilities that eben if Yudin didn't procure legit booze (which is still potent to kids), what if they/ a few drank grain alcohol? Paradoxal undressing isn't such a paradox watching drunk people.
[/   quote] I certainly hope you get your rhymes with B key fixed , had me in stiches here.1. You really think they/someone rolled the drunk on the train. 2. My best friend Ziljoe and myself sorted the alcohol stove out by him finding the firelighters that were used as stated by Hunter in a previous post. 3. Yes its amazing how many Paradoxes there are floating around. Hope you find your V I have lots of them VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV    Oh Oh Missus just got back from shopping in our Bolts Wagon. 

[ahabmyth]

.



These are the droids I have been looking for. But they need some WD40 or brake cleaner, same thing I use to fix my keyboard.

[Falcon73]

Why did the girls  one of them anyways mention how especially for them it is bad yuri was leaving?  Was he their protector from the advances of the others?

[Ziljoe]

Why did the girls  one of them anyways mention how especially for them it is bad yuri was leaving?  Was he their protector from the advances of the others?

The two translations I have are ,

January 28


In the morning, everyone was woken up by the mumbling talk of Yurka Kri and Sashka Kolevatov. The weather is smiling on us for now, because it is -8°.
After breakfast, some of the guys, led by Yura Yudin, our famous geologist, went to the core storage, hoping to collect some minerals for the collection. There was nothing there except pyrite and veins of quartz in the rock. It took a long time to get ready: they greased the skis, adjusted the bindings. Yurka Yudin is leaving back home today. Of course, it is a pity for us to part, especially for Zina and me, but nothing can be done.[/b]

And

January 28
We were awaken by the rumbling voices of Yurka Kri (Yuri Krivonischenko) and Sasha Kolevatov (Aleksander Kolevatov). Weather so far is smiling at us. It's only -8°C outside.
After breakfast, some of the guys lead by Yuri Yudin, our well- known geologist, went to look for local minerals. They didn't find anything except pyrite and quartz veins in the rock. Took them long time to wax their skis and adjust the mounting. Yuri Yudin goes back home today. It is a pity, of course, that he leaves us. Especially for me and Zina, but nothing can be done about it.

It notes:Lyuda Dubinina - this entry is not signed, but can't be anybody else but Dubinina


It is written in the group diary so all will see it at some point. I think it's just words of affection that will later be read and yudin will be seen as a valued group member. I think yudin was good friends with them both but the hikers had all been on a number of hikes with each other and various options to join different hikes were available.

I would say it was a written to be seen and just politeness of one of the group having to  drop out of the adventure and a good fun companion would be missed by them. Men in general don't write in such a way.

[ahabmyth]

Why did the girls  one of them anyways mention how especially for them it is bad yuri was leaving?  Was he their protector from the advances of the others?

Short and sweet . Yuri dated Zina for a while and she still had the hots for him and Lluda was on the horizon too.





Ok I have moved along, nothing here, they wern't the ones I was looking for: what now.

[Falcon73]

Zina has dated one of the other hikers not Yuri.  It just seems an odd thing to say. 

[amashilu]

Zina had dated Yuri Doroschenko before the hike.

[Falcon73]

Yes not yudin.

[OLD JEDI 72]

It strikes me that we do not have to treat these theories as mutually exclusive. A slab could have come down on the tent and tensions could have been boiling over inside. Choosing to camp on that slope was asking for trouble, the kind of trouble that exposes cracks in group discipline. You can see it in the photos: Zolotaryov with that hard, almost defiant expression while Igor bends to his journal, and Doroshenko looking caught between. In the trench digging shots, Zolo’s face reads "what the hell are we doing here" while Dyatlov looks grim, locked in his role as leader.

That Soviet frame of mind matters. These were not Western students out for a carefree adventure. They were raised in a system that drilled conformity and endurance, where backing down was not just personal weakness but dishonor to the group. A clash between Igor’s authority and Zolotaryov’s experience is not far-fetched, it is almost expected in those conditions. Add cold, fatigue, and maybe a sudden noise or slab impact, and you have the recipe for both a panicked exit and fists flying once they were outside.

When people talk about the "unknown compelling force," it is usually framed as something external. But sometimes the real compelling force is just human, personalities under pressure, bad decisions amplified by the environment, and the rigid Soviet ethos that made compromise almost impossible.

[Ziljoe]

It strikes me that we do not have to treat these theories as mutually exclusive. A slab could have come down on the tent and tensions could have been boiling over inside. Choosing to camp on that slope was asking for trouble, the kind of trouble that exposes cracks in group discipline. You can see it in the photos: Zolotaryov with that hard, almost defiant expression while Igor bends to his journal, and Doroshenko looking caught between. In the trench digging shots, Zolo’s face reads "what the hell are we doing here" while Dyatlov looks grim, locked in his role as leader.

That Soviet frame of mind matters. These were not Western students out for a carefree adventure. They were raised in a system that drilled conformity and endurance, where backing down was not just personal weakness but dishonor to the group. A clash between Igor’s authority and Zolotaryov’s experience is not far-fetched, it is almost expected in those conditions. Add cold, fatigue, and maybe a sudden noise or slab impact, and you have the recipe for both a panicked exit and fists flying once they were outside.

When people talk about the "unknown compelling force," it is usually framed as something external. But sometimes the real compelling force is just human, personalities under pressure, bad decisions amplified by the environment, and the rigid Soviet ethos that made compromise almost impossible.

Exactly, this has always been a frustration for me when theories have always tried to encompass everything reported like the tongue and missing eye's being cut out. We can still have outsiders forcing them out of the tent but nature removing them. Depending on how you read the autopsy, it can read as if it's the soft tissue surrounding the tongue that's missing.

It is the sensationalism of how we are first introduced to the mystery that gives us a bias to what happened. That in itself is an interesting psychological effect.

I can't see anything in the photos, if I do, I would see it as satire  , a deliberate joke photo. The photo seems to coincide with them getting slightly lost on the Mansi trail. To take a photo like that , the person taking the photo has to move into position , adjust the exposure etc . The pose has to be selected by those in the frame , then click. They know they will see each others photo. To me , it's just a joke of , hurry up and get us out of the treeline .

I think students are students the world over. I also think they were care free , in fact ,a large part of Soviet society seemed to function in a similar way to the west , in some cases better than the UK. Looking at all the photos of the previous hikes and other hikes there seems to be a joy of being in these places and friendships. Some of the photos show artistic thinking and there's joy and laughter in the searcher photo's.

They talk of art , science, music , movies , love. It's all human , the Soviets weren't sitting in bunkers eating cabbage soup thinking of how to attack the west and rule the world. They weren't robots being dictated too and their is so much more to the culture. This doesn't mean the population wasn't paranoid but the same goes for today and in the west.

We had terrible conformity forced against us in the west, certain factions of the church were horrific in how they treated people and  ran through the education and political systems. Some of it was inexcusable.

A fight between two can't be ignored and is possible but leaving the tent and all its equipment makes it seem unlikely to me . That's where I get stuck .

[OLD JEDI 72]

Not to me when you factor in who the tent belonged to.

[Osi]

A missile or an airplane passing overhead. The taiga to the east of the Ural Mountains is at an altitude close to sea level. Therefore, the Urals are where the altitude of a missile or airplane traveling west is minimized. These flying objects create sound waves. It is scientifically certain that they caused an avalanche or a slab slide. Specifically, they could have caused a cut snow block to move. While Zolotaryov and Tibo were trying to photograph the objects passing through the night sky, the tent occupants may have been buried in snow.

[ahabmyth]

Meanderings I think. Seems like the whole group is taking off in all directions Ha Ha.

Who does the tent belong to. I dont think it has been Identified exactly but I have always taken it as being the Ural Uni, they paid for everything else including money for the project and I have a feeling that Dyatlov had words with them about replacing the tent as it was full of holes and needed repairing every hike ( I wont use the word "rotten" don't want to upset anyone).
Re OSI and sounds at night. I would agree that sounds would be amplified at night and flights of any types would be heard, very softly as most trajectories would be at their very apex. Enough to cause an avalanche I don't think so. The weathers needs to be taken into account and by all means hasn't been definitely ascertained yet.Bombs or objects is another thing. Another group of hikers were on their way to Otorten I dont know how near but they most likely would hear everything that our friends heard.

                                                                       Solving the case - - - KISS.

[Ziljoe]

Meanderings I think. Seems like the whole group is taking off in all directions Ha Ha.

Who does the tent belong to. I dont think it has been Identified exactly but I have always taken it as being the Ural Uni, they paid for everything else including money for the project and I have a feeling that Dyatlov had words with them about replacing the tent as it was full of holes and needed repairing every hike ( I wont use the word "rotten" don't want to upset anyone).
Re OSI and sounds at night. I would agree that sounds would be amplified at night and flights of any types would be heard, very softly as most trajectories would be at their very apex. Enough to cause an avalanche I don't think so. The weathers needs to be taken into account and by all means hasn't been definitely ascertained yet.Bombs or objects is another thing. Another group of hikers were on their way to Otorten I dont know how near but they most likely would hear everything that our friends heard.

                                                                       Solving the case - - - KISS.

I don't think there was another group going to Otorten .

[OLD JEDI 72]

Ziljoe, I take your point about sensationalism. The way the case was first framed, tongues cut out and eyes gouged, planted bias early on. When you re-read the autopsies carefully, a lot of those details look more like natural decomposition. That doesn’t lessen the tragedy but it should keep us honest. I also agree with you that students are students the world over. There was joy in those photos. Like they just did a few shots of vodka. At the same time, when I look at Zolo’s expression in that trench photo next to Igor’s stern face, it still reads like tension to me. Maybe it was posed, maybe not, but personalities do leak through the lens.

Osi, I think sound may well have played a role, but maybe not in the way you mean. Even a sudden crack of settling snow or the weird acoustics of wind over the ridge could shake nerves. Whether a plane or missile actually passed overhead is harder for me to accept without supporting evidence, though. I am more convinced by the idea of a modest slab release, the kind that would not bury the tent in meters of snow but still crash down hard enough to panic a group.

And ahabmyth, you do make me smile with the "solving the case KISS" sign-off. If only it were that simple. Every time this mystery gets stamped "solved," it seems to sprout another contradiction. I still believe the core may have been human, a fight or clash of authority inside the tent, possibly sparked or compounded by the slab. A poor campsite choice, personalities under pressure, and maybe one last external jolt. Not elegant, not cosmic, but sometimes human messiness is the true unknown compelling force.

Here's an image of something that has been sticking with me. Yes, I realize the stove is wrong. The guy with the knife had a meltdown when he had to sleep too close to the stove. Or did he hear something he didn't like?

[Ziljoe]

OJ , which photo do you refer to with zolo expression and dyatlov  having a stern face? ( Out of interest).

I could see a small fight and have thought about it. If 9 of us here were on that hike icould  see us having disagreement and perhaps a push and shove with a fist thrown, but... We also have others in the group that are sensible and meditate like amushila . I don't think a fight would make them migrate all the way down to the cedar without taking more equipment.

Keeping it super simple, for me , the tent and equipment had to be left behind.

There is enough numbers in the group to stop a full blown fight . If it were the case , then some would dominate and at least have full clothing and tools etc.

The only scenario I can think of is someone going mental and holding a knife to one of the groups throats forcing the rest down the slope. Otherwise the majority would easily overcome the individual.

I muse over over all theories and I understand that there may of been friction within the group but for all of them to leave the resources of the tent is difficult to find a working model, even with a couple of shots of vodka.

The terrain and weather doesn't lend itself to a group having an extended physical fight in my opinion.

I don't dismiss your suggestion of friction.   

[ahabmyth]

Ziljoe, I take your point about sensationalism. The way the case was first framed, tongues cut out and eyes gouged, planted bias early on. When you re-read the autopsies carefully, a lot of those details look more like natural decomposition. That doesn’t lessen the tragedy but it should keep us honest. I also agree with you that students are students the world over. There was joy in those photos. Like they just did a few shots of vodka. At the same time, when I look at Zolo’s expression in that trench photo next to Igor’s stern face, it still reads like tension to me. Maybe it was posed, maybe not, but personalities do leak through the lens.

Osi, I think sound may well have played a role, but maybe not in the way you mean. Even a sudden crack of settling snow or the weird acoustics of wind over the ridge could shake nerves. Whether a plane or missile actually passed overhead is harder for me to accept without supporting evidence, though. I am more convinced by the idea of a modest slab release, the kind that would not bury the tent in meters of snow but still crash down hard enough to panic a group.

And ahabmyth, you do make me smile with the "solving the case KISS" sign-off. If only it were that simple. Every time this mystery gets stamped "solved," it seems to sprout another contradiction. I still believe the core may have been human, a fight or clash of authority inside the tent, possibly sparked or compounded by the slab. A poor campsite choice, personalities under pressure, and maybe one last external jolt. Not elegant, not cosmic, but sometimes human messiness is the true unknown compelling force.

Here's an image of something that has been sticking with me. Yes, I realize the stove is wrong. The guy with the knife had a meltdown when he had to sleep too close to the stove. Or did he hear something he didn't like?

IMHO I think there maybe those amongst us (very diplomatic) that tend to delve into the smallest idiosyncrasies of the hikers when there is no need , again IMHO. The incident with Yuri Kri I think was a standing joke by the two girls as they had him under the stove before from what I remember, and him coming out of it calling them traitors may have been a little over the top and he was l think lost for words ,he would have known damn well what it would be like near/under the stove.
The dimensions of the tent for 9 people (and it was nearly 10)is unimaginable to me. the area is bad enough but the height of 1 mtr is the pits, imagine a stove that I would guess is about 10" deep then take minimum 10" from apex of roof for wire attachment , leaves 20" .not surprised you would feel uncomfortable. Oh and the pic with the Traitor sign ,sorry but cant see any knife (maybe his sharp words). With a tent that size I am sure there would have been heaps of uncomfortable hikes, I cannot imagine trying to walk around bent in two and having to scramble over other people.LOL .As Ziljoe has just posted I can't recollect a photo with Zolo and Igor having a scowling match.
With the cutting of the tent (inside or out) I am fairly sure an overwhelming force is an overwhelming force, however sometimes I express this when I need to use a toilet. The autopsies with missing eyes and tongue is just too much to contemplate and leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I can agree about the students, as a whole they are the same the world over - stupid.


                                                                                                 KISS

[ahabmyth]

Ziljoe - Thankyou for the compliments in your first paragraph.