Positions of bodies

[amashilu]

It seems probable to me that the bodies of the ravine4 and the two Yuris were moved after death and "positioned." Maybe also Igor's body.

Therefore, I am starting to divorce the two Yuris' deaths from the cedar tree. I don't know if they had anything to do with the cedar at all, aside from being positioned at its base after their deaths. Is there really evidence that one or both them climbed the tree? Fell from the tree? Cut a window of branches so they could watch the tent? How about being burnt in the little campfire that was not well-tended and only burned for 90 minutes? I am mentally moving them away from the cedar and looking at other possibilities.

Same with the 4 in the ravine. Their injuries killed them quickly, so it's possible they died elsewhere, were brought to the ravine after death and positioned.

Hopefully, thinking like this can open up more options for what happened, instead of binding my thinking to the cedar and some kind of snow dump at the ravine.

[GlennM]

I think that soaked clothing from running water figures into the fate of the Yuris'. That in turn means they ran into trouble elsewhere, perhaps digging a tunnel is the ravine over water?

[ahabmyth]

The two Yuris probably died after using not very successful body heat and this is why they were found in the condition and positions they were.
I cant agree with others being responsible for all the deaths. Noise travels in this environment night or day and surely would have been noticed. Also no other evidence was found other than the nines prints. Looking at the creek after recent snow its easy to believe the many perils that lie just beneath the surface. Being found under 13ft of snow this would qualify for the 4 being found the way they were.
In all probability the two Yuris could have been classed as heroes if in fact they volunteered to go to the woods and make a fire.

[amashilu]

I cant agree with others being responsible for all the deaths. Noise travels in this environment night or day and surely would have been noticed. Also no other evidence was found other than the nines prints. Looking at the creek after after recent snow its easy to believe the many perils that lie just beneath the surface. Being found under 13ft of snow this would qualify for the 4 being found the way they were.

Looked at from the perspective of the 2 Yuris and the Ravine4 having died elsewhere than where they were found does not necessarily mean that they were murdered by others. It could also mean that the last three (Rustem, Zina, and Igor) positioned them respectfully.

[GlennM]

In order to better understand the survival sequence relating to the Yuris, ascertain where the Yuris' garments ended up. Decide whether those garments were taken to preserve life or obfuscate criminal activity. Decide if placement of the remains, unburied and adjascent to a local landmark, was done for retrieval by the hikers or authorities at a later time. Does it appear likely that assasins or conspirators are involved given the obvious nauture of the findings?

I believe it would be shortsighted and abundantly selfish of the grouo to have any sub team or the DP9 leave the tent on 1079 and take all the attendant risks in order to supply creature comforts for those who remained. If firewood was the goal, then they all go to the woods ( as Teddy supposes) make camp and try their luck.  I can only imagine the hikers abandoning the tent all together because they feared for the safety of all. Choose a reason, they all have been advanced!  What is less discussed is whether IRZ's return to the tent signals that the reason they left is no longer a concern or outweighed by circumstance.

[ahabmyth]

You can always go to "The Cedars" and see and forever wonder what happened to us.

You may want to compare Photo 33 with what I saw.

Really people you have to believe someone some
time.
One of us will be correct in our assumptions.

[amashilu]

Expanding this topic on the positions of the bodies: I have thought, as well as read on this site, and now read again in Axelrod's latest post under the topic Religious Connections (https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=1883.0) that the positions of the bodies of Igor, Rustem, Yuri K, Yuri D, and I would include Zina, are not the positions of people who are dying of hypothermia. People freezing to death are known to curl into a fetal position in an effort to stay warm. Zina may have been beginning to curl up, but her curl is not complete. Looking at Yuri K and Yuri D and Igor, in particular, these people's limbs are fully extended straight out. They are not trying to keep warm. They all look like they were whacked hard, fell down, beginning to lose consciousness or have lost consciousness, and the cold just finished the job.

[GlennM]

I have trouble with the idea that nine able people out in the middle of nowhere, in the dead of winter are going to be abused u and posed in some unnatural way for ghoulish amusement for no discernable reason in 60 years.

If their demise happened swiftly, that is consistent with lack of frostbite. IRZ had postures in death that are quite understandable. Others were victims of circumstances. They got wet, their snow cave collapsed, they fell from a slope or an embankment.I just do not think warm dying or dead are going to be posed for anything other than later retrieval for a,decent burial.

[ahabmyth]

Expanding this topic on the positions of the bodies: I have thought, as well as read on this site, and now read again in Axelrod's latest post under the topic Religious Connections (https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=1883.0) that the positions of the bodies of Igor, Rustem, Yuri K, Yuri D, and I would include Zina, are not the positions of people who are dying of hypothermia. People freezing to death are known to curl into a fetal position in an effort to stay warm. Zina may have been beginning to curl up, but her curl is not complete. Looking at Yuri K and Yuri D and Igor, in particular, these people's limbs are fully extended straight out. They are not trying to keep warm. They all look like they were whacked hard, fell down, beginning to lose consciousness or have lost consciousness, and the cold just finished the job.

        How do you account for the distances of the bodies Igor 300mtrs  Rustem 500 and Zina 800 those are big distances, Zina nearly 3 x that of Igor , are we supposed to believe that these murderers raced faster than some of the fittest members in the Urals.

The fact that the Yuris were laid out straight does lead to the fact that maybe someone had laid them out straight but maybe they tried the body heat system, what happened to their clothes is another story. I cannot believe (although it has been proven) that people suffering hypothermia feel some type of heat enough to want to remove their clothing. that they would go from that state to wanting to keep warm again.
I dont have enough knowledge in  this area but could suggest that everyone would be different., these were big ,fit guys I dont think that anyone with a club could deal with them.
The only other subjective suggestion is the armed gang theory not to hurt them but make them to stand outside in the cold and let that finish them.I dont go for that theory either.

[amashilu]

I do not mention murder or people racing around with clubs. I am looking at the facts, without theory, and the fact is that these five bodies do not lie in the known, typical, position for people dying of hypothermia.

quote:

– As I understand it, the deceased did not have the poses typical of freezing.

[KOROLYOV]: Many of them froze in a dynamic pose. Which, as science tells us, cannot happen. Nevertheless, here is the fact.

– When a person freezes, he curls up like an embryo.

[KIREYEV]: When a person freezes, a corpse bed is formed. an ice root under him. Only one member of the group had this (Rustem Slobodin).

[ahabmyth]

I do not mention murder or people racing around with clubs. I am looking at the facts, without theory, and the fact is that these five bodies do not lie in the known, typical, position for people dying of hypothermia.

And I agree with you entirely.

They all look like they were whacked hard, fell down, beginning to lose consciousness or have lost consciousness, and the cold just finished the job.

[SURI]

I do not mention murder or people racing around with clubs. I am looking at the facts, without theory, and the fact is that these five bodies do not lie in the known, typical, position for people dying of hypothermia.

And I agree with you entirely.

They all look like they were whacked hard, fell down, beginning to lose consciousness or have lost consciousness, and the cold just finished the job.

I also agree.

[Ziljoe]

I do not mention murder or people racing around with clubs. I am looking at the facts, without theory, and the fact is that these five bodies do not lie in the known, typical, position for people dying of hypothermia.

quote:

– As I understand it, the deceased did not have the poses typical of freezing.

[KOROLYOV]: Many of them froze in a dynamic pose. Which, as science tells us, cannot happen. Nevertheless, here is the fact.

– When a person freezes, he curls up like an embryo.

[KIREYEV]: When a person freezes, a corpse bed is formed. an ice root under him. Only one member of the group had this (Rustem Slobodin).

I'm not sure that there is a known typical body position for people dying from hypothermia. I think the quoted link is a bit of sensationalism to appeal for the audience that's being targeted.

There are numerous pictures of corpse's online from serious academic case studies. These case studies go through the process of determining if such events were homicide, accident, suicide etc.

They actually highlight how careful the forensic must be and not jump to conclusions because of the varied behaviour by humans in advanced hypothermia.

There are several people in the position of the Yuri's , a few in the" boxer "position like Igor and several like Zina and Slobodin.

Most of these deaths involve only the individual. Reasons for being in the situation of hypothermia  are varied but one included being locked out of the house , this individual was found in a snow bank with a body position like Zina /Rustem . Some look like they were tied up like Igor but they were not , it's how the body freezes , humans do not just curl up into the fetal position and die.


This phrase needs to be thrown in the bin , When a person freezes, he curls up like an embryo. because it's not true for hypothermia and it means he never studied the subject whilst making outlandish claims that have zero authority.

[amashilu]

And yet curling into the fetal position remains a common response to hypothermia, as a person tries to warm themselves. But not one out of nine in this case curled into the fetal position when supposedly dying of hypothermia.

[Ziljoe]

I would suspect the context of the fetal position is how we may see ourselves in our beds when cold or camping . If the Dyatlov hikers were found in the tent , under blankets in a fetal position, then it could be argued that they died from hypothermia and extreme cold whilst trying to wait .

I am not sure how many cases of hypothermia involve finding people sitting waiting for help from the cold , getting caught out and becoming hypothermic without realising the danger and those who know they will become hypothermic and must take action are different scenarios.

As much as I've researched , people don't instantly freeze from the cold and they don't just dig a hole and curl up. It's a process that happens at different time intervals in different conditions. Hypothermia in water will be different to those on a snowy mountain etc.

What we do know is people will start to become clumsy, finger movement will reduce and in cold conditions limbs will freeze whilst you are still alive . There are many examples of people being found in the body positions of the hikers , alive and dead..

The three going up the slope are in body positions that tend to suggest they were still functioning and trying to move ( we can argue up hill or down hill) . If their knee and elbow joints weren't already stiff and numb I would suspect the feet, ankles and hands to be suffering plus their core temperature.

As Ive mentioned before in the UK incident it states the problem with limbs freezing and yet a determined female fought and crawled in vain to try and get help for her students, they had already spent the night on the mountain in a snow den.

...."Edging closer and without reference points in the whiteout, they realised that they had got very close to a person on her hands and knees. Davidson was still up on the plateau and trying to crawl for help. Two crew were unloaded 64 metres (70 yd) away, the closest they could manage. Then, they reached the casualty but could not carry her to the helicopter because her legs were locked in a kneeling position. The helicopter could get no closer because when it applied power, the blowing snow obliterated vision and so one of the crew jumped out to lead it in the right direction by using the winch wire. There was no sign of anyone else from Davidson's group. Davidson was taken by helicopter to Aviemore, where she was met by ambulance. She was in the advanced stages of hypothermia and her hands were frozen solid, but although she was confused and barely able to speak, she managed to let her rescuers know that the rest of the party was close to where she had been rescued.[50] She could say only the words "Burn – lochan – buried" to rescuer Brian Hall, but that gave sufficient clues.[51]"....

I would suspect if the teacher had not been rescued, her body pose would be similar to Zinas when found later. If it tells anything , the three on the slope didn't just lie down because it was cold and cuddle up into a ball, they were fighting something, it would look like this fight was against the cold .They may have fell and stumbled several times , using frozen fists to break their fall, that is,  if their dulled reactions and frozen joints could react fast enough by the last moments.

The conditions , environment and obstacles over perhaps a 12 hour period allow for the majority of injuries. The body positions are consistent with a fight for survival in cold conditions . For me , only the fractured ribs and skull fracture are out with of what I would expect to find.

[amashilu]

     " ... The three going up the slope are in body positions that tend to suggest they were still functioning and trying to move ..."

I guess this is in the eye of the beholder because I disagree. What about Igor's death position looks to you like he is still functioning and trying to move? Rustem?

[SURI]

I only see two on the slope, who are in a dynamic pose.

Confirmed by radiogram.

March 5 as a result of searching using probes under a layer of snow of 15 cm was found Slobodin. He too froze in the dynamic pose as Kolmogorova.

https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-32-35?rbid=17743

And comparing the teacher to Zina is not exactly appropriate, because she did not have such an unusual injury on her head as Zina did on her forehead.

[Ziljoe]

     " ... The three going up the slope are in body positions that tend to suggest they were still functioning and trying to move ..."

I guess this is in the eye of the beholder because I disagree. What about Igor's death position looks to you like he is still functioning and trying to move? Rustem?

Perhaps, but the problem we have is that thebody positions are not outwith the window of death by trying to move towards a tent and dying from the elements.   To say they were not in the fetal position and then conclude they didn't die from hypothermia because of this is flawed.

I recently found myself on a forensic forum. The dyatlov pass and autopsy reports were submitted. Basically they laugh at all of us. My conclusion from their replies is that everything reported was of the standard at the time, theirs nothing more to be said without other evidence, one thing cannot be proven over the other. Without obvious sign of any other injuries, the deaths are as summarised in the autopsy and nothing more could be written.

You can walk/ crawl 10 meters and rest, then crawl 5 meters and rest , then crawl one meter and just collapse . . That is for strong willed people . 

[Ziljoe]

I only see two on the slope, who are in a dynamic pose.

Confirmed by radiogram.

March 5 as a result of searching using probes under a layer of snow of 15 cm was found Slobodin. He too froze in the dynamic pose as Kolmogorova.

https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-32-35?rbid=17743

And comparing the teacher to Zina is not exactly appropriate, because she did not have such an unusual injury on her head as Zina did on her forehead.

Thanks suri. I related the potential of how the teachers body might have been found if she had died . That is , it may have been found like Zinas or Rustem in a dynamic pose. The limbs freeze and there would be no chance of a fetal position.

I was not referring to the marks on the face but the body position. However , by googling wind burn and frostbite on the face after living or exposure to the elements in case studies , we can see the purple , red, orange and black marks that occur to exposed skin . We also have to take into account the defrosting of the bodies and what happens in transit of the bodies. The forensic forum highlights this and mentions changes in that process also.

[SURI]

Zina's forehead injury is atypical. It's not just any ordinary mark. It won't happen by itself.

[Ziljoe]

Zina's forehead injury is atypical. It's not just any ordinary mark. It won't happen by itself.

Why is it atypical?

[ahabmyth]

Zina's forehead injury is atypical. It's not just any ordinary mark. It won't happen by itself.

Why is it atypical?

As Suri stated ie Atypical = (Its not normal) ; I am scratching my head trying to think what could have caused such an injury, the only thing I can think of is falling on some of the Korumniki rocks. But why the depth of the injury ,it appears to me like a star shape going down to the skull. just crazy. I had never focused on her injuries before.
RIP Sweet girl.

NB Just thinking (dangerous) Could this forhead injury have been caused by the searchers probe, I know she was found in only 6" of snow but it would still be normal to stab and turn as you felt an object.

[SURI]

If you look at the photo from when Zina's body was found, you'll see that it was lying face down, so I would rule out injurie caused by the probe. The injury is specific in shape and resembles a 4-pointed star.

https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Zinaida-Kolmogorova-post-mortem-3.jpg

[ahabmyth]

If you look at the photo from when Zina's body was found, you'll see that it was lying face down, so I would rule out injurie caused by the probe. The injury is specific in shape and resembles a 4-pointed star.

https://dyatlovpass.com/resources/340/gallery/Zinaida-Kolmogorova-post-mortem-3.jpg

Yep I thought it may have been caused by a probe but as you say face being down and I think slightly to the left rules this out. Would need to go back to this Korumniki rock I suppose.It should be noted that Zina made it upto the rock zone 800mtrs from the Cedar/Tent so if they all set off together quite a remarkable feat when you look at the boys.


Hey Suri, just a short personal message ( nothing seems to work on this site , yes I tried the Icon top left ). Ok you are in Oz too, do you have problems with being logged off every 10minutes or so. I'm with Telstra and its usualy ok. I was thinking of blaming them but everything else is ok. There isnt a sort of Help File either its WYSIWYG.

[ilahiyol]

Expanding this topic on the positions of the bodies: I have thought, as well as read on this site, and now read again in Axelrod's latest post under the topic Religious Connections (https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=1883.0) that the positions of the bodies of Igor, Rustem, Yuri K, Yuri D, and I would include Zina, are not the positions of people who are dying of hypothermia. People freezing to death are known to curl into a fetal position in an effort to stay warm. Zina may have been beginning to curl up, but her curl is not complete. Looking at Yuri K and Yuri D and Igor, in particular, these people's limbs are fully extended straight out. They are not trying to keep warm. They all look like they were whacked hard, fell down, beginning to lose consciousness or have lost consciousness, and the cold just finished the job.

        How do you account for the distances of the bodies Igor 300mtrs  Rustem 500 and Zina 800 those are big distances, Zina nearly 3 x that of Igor , are we supposed to believe that these murderers raced faster than some of the fittest members in the Urals.

The fact that the Yuris were laid out straight does lead to the fact that maybe someone had laid them out straight but maybe they tried the body heat system, what happened to their clothes is another story. I cannot believe (although it has been proven) that people suffering hypothermia feel some type of heat enough to want to remove their clothing. that they would go from that state to wanting to keep warm again.
I dont have enough knowledge in  this area but could suggest that everyone would be different., these were big ,fit guys I dont think that anyone with a club could deal with them.
The only other subjective suggestion is the armed gang theory not to hurt them but make them to stand outside in the cold and let that finish them.I dont go for that theory either.

As I mentioned before, they held a group consultation in the cedar tree. Two Yuris climbed the tree and watched for the Coercive Force. They all wanted to return to the tent. Being deprived of their clothing, food, and belongings could make them sick and even kill them! So they had to get back to the tent as quickly as possible. They watched the tent for an hour or two. When they couldn't see the Coercive Force, they hoped it had gone far away. The three bravest and most resilient decided to go to the tent. The other four dug a den in the snow and tried to stay warm there. The two Yuris, being half-naked, couldn't get back to the tent or into the den. They decided to stay by the fire.

[ilahiyol]

CONTINUE: The Coercive Force wasn't far away. It was nearby, but it was lurking, watching them from afar!!! Then, one by one, it killed them all. These killings may have started with Igor, who was 300 meters away from the Sedir. Meanwhile, Rüstem and Zina may have started running. Rüstem, a good runner, managed to escape 600 meters from the Sedir, but he too suffered a severe blow to the side of his head, fell, and died there. Zina, on the other hand, managed to run 800 meters away, but the sudden impact also knocked her to the ground and her death ensued.How long does it take for a person to walk 200-300 meters uphill, on snow-covered ground, in the cold, and in the dark? If we can answer this, we'll know how long it takes for Coercive Force to kill a person. A 200-300-meter walk takes 2-3 minutes at a normal pace. Rustem and Zina were probably running when they were running. But the snowy ground, the night, the cold, and their bare feet slowed them down. And even though they were running, they were able to escape at walking speed. So, they only got away in 2-3 minutes. Coercive Force must have killed Igor in 2-3 minutes and caught up with Rustem!!!(?)So if the Coercive Force killed Igor in 1 minute, it probably must have caught up with Rustem in 1-1.5 minutes!(?) So the Coercive Force isn't very fast!!! It has a certain speed. Because there's a pretty long distance between Igor, Rustem and Zina. And even though it was a cold, snowy night and barefoot!!! So stimate the Coercive Force's speed to be 15-20 km/h(?) But it's still an impressive speed under those circumstances.I'm so sorry that the translation isn't good. I apologize to everyone.

[sarapuk]

CONTINUE: The Coercive Force wasn't far away. It was nearby, but it was lurking, watching them from afar!!! Then, one by one, it killed them all. These killings may have started with Igor, who was 300 meters away from the Sedir. Meanwhile, Rüstem and Zina may have started running. Rüstem, a good runner, managed to escape 600 meters from the Sedir, but he too suffered a severe blow to the side of his head, fell, and died there. Zina, on the other hand, managed to run 800 meters away, but the sudden impact also knocked her to the ground and her death ensued.How long does it take for a person to walk 200-300 meters uphill, on snow-covered ground, in the cold, and in the dark? If we can answer this, we'll know how long it takes for Coercive Force to kill a person. A 200-300-meter walk takes 2-3 minutes at a normal pace. Rustem and Zina were probably running when they were running. But the snowy ground, the night, the cold, and their bare feet slowed them down. And even though they were running, they were able to escape at walking speed. So, they only got away in 2-3 minutes. Coercive Force must have killed Igor in 2-3 minutes and caught up with Rustem!!!(?)So if the Coercive Force killed Igor in 1 minute, it probably must have caught up with Rustem in 1-1.5 minutes!(?) So the Coercive Force isn't very fast!!! It has a certain speed. Because there's a pretty long distance between Igor, Rustem and Zina. And even though it was a cold, snowy night and barefoot!!! So stimate the Coercive Force's speed to be 15-20 km/h(?) But it's still an impressive speed under those circumstances.I'm so sorry that the translation isn't good. I apologize to everyone.

It appears that the unknown compelling force wasnt just at the tent site but also down at the forest site. That force was present in the area for some time, the time that the group left the tent and the time of their demise.

[SURI]

It appears that the unknown compelling force wasnt just at the tent site but also down at the forest site. That force was present in the area for some time, the time that the group left the tent and the time of their demise.

Correct observation. This force was everywhere the tourists moved. It began to show its power when the tourists left the tent and ceased to exist when the tourists died.

[ilahiyol]

It appears that the unknown compelling force wasnt just at the tent site but also down at the forest site. That force was present in the area for some time, the time that the group left the tent and the time of their demise.

Correct observation. This force was everywhere the tourists moved. It began to show its power when the tourists left the tent and ceased to exist when the tourists died.

I think this was the unknown force's purpose! I mean, they wanted the young people to die like this. Because they could have killed them all in the tent much earlier. Or even days before... They wanted the event to be staged this way. This way, the whole world would talk about this horrific and interesting event. This way, they would send a message to the whole world!!! YOU ARE NOT ALONE AND YOU ARE BEING SURVEYALE!!! Because the unknown force definitely planned this scene. Unfortunately, they toyed with the young people like a cat with a mouse!!! All of the young people are kind-hearted and passionate about life. And I also think they were specially chosen.

[ilahiyol]

CONTINUE: The Coercive Force wasn't far away. It was nearby, but it was lurking, watching them from afar!!! Then, one by one, it killed them all. These killings may have started with Igor, who was 300 meters away from the Sedir. Meanwhile, Rüstem and Zina may have started running. Rüstem, a good runner, managed to escape 600 meters from the Sedir, but he too suffered a severe blow to the side of his head, fell, and died there. Zina, on the other hand, managed to run 800 meters away, but the sudden impact also knocked her to the ground and her death ensued.How long does it take for a person to walk 200-300 meters uphill, on snow-covered ground, in the cold, and in the dark? If we can answer this, we'll know how long it takes for Coercive Force to kill a person. A 200-300-meter walk takes 2-3 minutes at a normal pace. Rustem and Zina were probably running when they were running. But the snowy ground, the night, the cold, and their bare feet slowed them down. And even though they were running, they were able to escape at walking speed. So, they only got away in 2-3 minutes. Coercive Force must have killed Igor in 2-3 minutes and caught up with Rustem!!!(?)So if the Coercive Force killed Igor in 1 minute, it probably must have caught up with Rustem in 1-1.5 minutes!(?) So the Coercive Force isn't very fast!!! It has a certain speed. Because there's a pretty long distance between Igor, Rustem and Zina. And even though it was a cold, snowy night and barefoot!!! So stimate the Coercive Force's speed to be 15-20 km/h(?) But it's still an impressive speed under those circumstances.I'm so sorry that the translation isn't good. I apologize to everyone.

It appears that the unknown compelling force wasnt just at the tent site but also down at the forest site. That force was present in the area for some time, the time that the group left the tent and the time of their demise.

Yes, he might have stayed for a while. Maybe he was watching for the fireballs. Orange balls. I think the orange fireballs were djinn. The djinn might have been curious about the incident and came. I don't think the orange balls were directly related to the incident. I think an unknown compelling force was also watching the djinn. Then he must have moved away...