Hikers' experience and training

[Hunter]

Forum Members,

This topic is not really brand new. It is what I split off from the most recent discussion under "Book 1079," which had wandered away from Book 1079 and needed its own channel.

This topic now begins with Hunter's and Ziljoe's messages you see below.

Amashilu
moderator




Ziljoe

A fuel tablet helps but if wood is dry then the work is mostly done. I would suspect all the hikers were skilled in how to light a fire.

Unfortunately, not all of them. I came across a report where tourists stumbled upon another group that was trying to make a fire out of raw wood.

[Ziljoe]

Ziljoe

A fuel tablet helps but if wood is dry then the work is mostly done. I would suspect all the hikers were skilled in how to light a fire.

Unfortunately, not all of them. I came across a report where tourists stumbled upon another group that was trying to make a fire out of raw wood.

That is a concern. It's quite important.

[Hunter]

Ziljoe,
Sometimes the experience of tourists from the Dyatlov group is exaggerated. There is a website that lists the number of hikes of each member of the group. It is not that big.

[Ziljoe]

Ziljoe,
Sometimes the experience of tourists from the Dyatlov group is exaggerated. There is a website that lists the number of hikes of each member of the group. It is not that big.

Yes, there's a list on the main page of the dyatlov pass site. . I would have thought lighting a fire would be one of the basic skills first taught to anyone going in to the wilds. Especially if they didn't have any other fuel source. I would also suspect they had more small camps and daily skiing trips that were never recorded. I could be wrong . But it's such a basic knowledge set to learn.

[Falcon73]

Yes I think the experience possibly being overrated should not be ruled out in this case.  They may have all hiked but had they ever run into a real emergency?  Not saying this contributed or didn't.  Unfortunately it adds to a long line of possibilities that can't be ruled out without more evidence.

[ahabmyth]

Yes I think the experience possibly being overrated should not be ruled out in this case.  They may have all hiked but had they ever run into a real emergency?  Not saying this contributed or didn't.  Unfortunately it adds to a long line of possibilities that can't be ruled out without more evidence.

Well I am afraid that what you see is what you've got, we are all in the same boat. Reading everything that this site/group has to offer will give you a better understanding of the series of events that leads upto the disaster. You just need an inquisitive open mind and some parts will fall into place "some parts". To answer your first question though, I surmise they were all experienced hikers given their ages ,quite remarkable actually. You will find things in the rabbit hole.

[Hunter]

Ziljoe
I'm talking about other groups. Plus, it's one thing to light a fire, another thing to choose the right wood so that it smokes less and doesn't give off shooting sparks.

Falcon73
They were not trained in emergency response. At that time, such courses were only for the military, and not for everyone.

[Ziljoe]

Ziljoe
I'm talking about other groups. Plus, it's one thing to light a fire, another thing to choose the right wood so that it smokes less and doesn't give off shooting sparks.

Cedar and pine are known to spark, I have used them in my own Wood Stove in a tent . The flue or pipe allows for the worst to be burnt off and the stove obviously contains any harm.

In winter and cold outside conditions, sparks are of little concern. The odd ember might float down and singe the tent canvas but this would be more of a concern during warmer times of the year. 

They obviously had open fires as well, again this would be of little concern although a jacket was burnt we don't have any details how this came to be.

I would think there would be little concern as to what type of wood they chose to burn , only that it was dry or dead wood. Pine and cedar would have the advantage of the resin and perhaps suitable birch was used.

The smoke made should travel along the pipe with correct ventilation and draw .

Obviously in a house or during summer outside, these variables might have more serious consequences, but in the cold conditions, I would suspect that they would use the best of what was available.   

From my own experience, I have suffered no problems with sparks or smoke burning all sorts of wood. The biggest negative to winter camping is the speed at which the wood burns which inturn means you have to keep adding fuel. Birch and hardwoods give a longer burn ( as you probably know) but if you are out in the woods you can't select the perfect tree every time. The high heat of resin can cause the stoves to warp and glow red but that is just the nature of the game. It is easy to make a new one when needed.

Long-term, in a homemade stove is not ideal but short term I don't think it would be a problem

[Hunter]

Ziljoe
Unfortunately, I use an online translator. So there may be misunderstandings.
According to reports, the stoves were simple in design back then, and sparks burned through tents. And using spruce trees in an open fire was also dangerous. There are reports where sparks from such a fire almost destroyed a sleeping bag.
And in Dyatlov's campaign, sparks caused damage to warm outerwear. They are called telogreikas, another name is vatnik or fufaika.

[Ziljoe]

Ziljoe
Unfortunately, I use an online translator. So there may be misunderstandings.
According to reports, the stoves were simple in design back then, and sparks burned through tents. And using spruce trees in an open fire was also dangerous. There are reports where sparks from such a fire almost destroyed a sleeping bag.
And in Dyatlov's campaign, sparks caused damage to warm outerwear. They are called telogreikas, another name is vatnik or fufaika.

Thank you Hunter. Perhaps translator will cause misunderstandings .

Yes, I mention the burnt clothes of the dyatlov group . The one in the photo of the burnt jacket.

Yes, all stoves are simple in design , new and old . It is a metal box with a pipe .

Yes, one other group of tourists burnt their tent at the same time as the dyatlov group and had to dig snow dens to get back home.

As someone who has camped with open fires and a stove inside a tent , I would be comfortable with cedar in my stove.

All types of wood and sparks have the potential to spread a fire . I would say that the distance of the fire from clothing or tent is the most important factor .

It is a risk that I would take in winter. In summer I would be more concerned of starting a wild fire from sparks 

In the UK, we can use a holiday campsite that is full of tents and use a wood stove. No one asks about the wood used in the stove. Sparks won't destroy a sleeping bag , a fire will  , some modern sleeping bags have flammable insulation.

Sparks from an open fireplace in a house is a concern.

The negatives of cedar and pine trees is that they burn quicker than hard wood , whatever wood is dry is the best wood.

[Hunter]

Ziljoe
The main idea is conveyed. The details can be clarified. As for the design of the stoves - then, yes, the stoves were simple, later stoves with spark arresters appeared. If you are interested, I can find diagrams and drawings. In general, it is quite interesting to study the experience of tourists of those years.
In the reports I came across a sleeping bag that had actually been gutted to remove the decay. Back then, sleeping bags for the cold season were made with cotton wool or down. Cotton wool was more affordable.

[amashilu]

They were not trained in emergency response. At that time, such courses were only for the military, and not for everyone.

Hunter, I am curious, how do you know that they were not trained in emergency response? They were all at least Level II in mountaineering and surely that would include some emergency response training?
And can you define what you mean by emergency response? Many of the apparent actions around the cedar would indicate otherwise.

[Hunter]

amashilu
They were tourists. Judging by the trips they took, they were hiking, skiing and water (rafting). They were not involved in mountaineering. This is a separate area and separate training with experience.
There were no emergency response (survival) courses available to civilians back then. Not even all military personnel were trained in this. Nor were pilots. For example, Soviet cosmonauts were trained in emergency response after Leonov and Belyayev landed in the wrong place and were searched for for a long time.
Askindzi said in one of his interviews that no one taught tourists how to act in emergency situations. Everything was developed on their own, independently. There was no centralized training at that time.
I have books on tourism from those years, published in the USSR. There are no sections on actions in emergency situations.
The actions around the cedar and in the ravine where the last four were found show that there were attempts to organize survival, but they were not thought out, they were chaotic, at the level of instincts.

[amashilu]

If, as you say, emergency response training was limited to the military, Zolotaryev had been in the military for years. He could well have directed the others at such things as walking down the slope in a line to help one another, digging a den, taking clothes from the dead to keep themselves warm, and whatever else he could do. I think there is evidence all around the cedar of organized, goal-oriented, survival techniques, put into action.

[Hunter]

amashilu
Military, but not all. And survival training (at least the literature I got) was designed for pilots, and Zolotarev was a groundman. One hundred percent - there were no survival courses for civilians back then.

[Ziljoe]

Ziljoe
The main idea is conveyed. The details can be clarified. As for the design of the stoves - then, yes, the stoves were simple, later stoves with spark arresters appeared. If you are interested, I can find diagrams and drawings. In general, it is quite interesting to study the experience of tourists of those years.
In the reports I came across a sleeping bag that had actually been gutted to remove the decay. Back then, sleeping bags for the cold season were made with cotton wool or down. Cotton wool was more affordable.

I have experience of wood burning stoves . I wood love to see old diagrams and drawings of the old stoves.


Yes, I am aware of how sleeping bags are made.

[Falcon73]

So they were going for their level 3, but none of them had it already, but they were all going to get it by doing a level 3 hike?

[amashilu]

So they were going for their level 3, but none of them had it already, but they were all going to get it by doing a level 3 hike?

Some had been on Level III hikes before, some had not. You can see a detailed summary of each one's experience on this page:

https://dyatlovpass.com/dyatlov-group-members-treks?lid=1&flp=1#doroshenko

[Ziljoe]

amashilu
Military, but not all. And survival training (at least the literature I got) was designed for pilots, and Zolotarev was a groundman. One hundred percent - there were no survival courses for civilians back then.

I think there has been a misunderstanding as to what people were asking regarding emergency.

I have never heard of emergency response training , other than professional in their various specialities and job roles.

I think the question being posed meant , would their ( the hikers )experience not have given them some knowledge to survive in the conditions they found themselves in?

I will answer that myself , yes. It does not need to be a special training.

They experienced, bear attacks, being shot , a snake bite, cold weather, rafting , making fires ( home and in the wild) , using saws, axe's , sewing , first aid , good wood vs bad wood, fire pits, insulation off the ground , some sort of mountaineering, foot management, cooking , rafting , making rafts etc.

The other groups adapted their burnt tent and dug dens etc.

Special survival training, probably not , unless from locals and hunters . We don't do survival courses to this day, just basic knowledge on how to survive, it is up to the individual to find out more.

[ahabmyth]

I would be fairly confident in saying that all the hikers could light a fire if this is what the present discussion is all about.
An overall fact remains that Igor ( and Dubinina believe it or not ) were the leaders of the group and like it or not they had the last word. Unfortunately they had the last word. Somewhere that word was flawed, we need to know what that word was.

[Hunter]

Ziljoe
We have a saying "demand creates supply". Now both you and we have survival courses where they teach what to do in emergency situations. For example, if you lose equipment on a hike or if you get lost in the forest, just going for a walk or for mushrooms.
About the bear. It was a small bear, and often in the case of a group attack, the bear will run away. But if you come across an adult bear, you will be a corpse if you attack him, and he will be serious.
The injury was accidental due to violations of the rules for handling weapons. And not very serious, plus there was more than one wounded person.
They had experience in camp life, but no experience in emergency situations. You know, in February 2022, we had a disaster. I saw how people who were very confident shooters at a shooting range or while hunting died because they did not know how to move in conditions of skirmishes. And they had colossal shooting experience.
Nowadays, many survival courses are more of a commercial project, and the students are completely urban people. For such people, a week's life in a tent without the Internet, pizza delivery and a hot bath is a disaster the first time.

ahabmyth
They had the knowledge, but they didn't have structured training on how to act in emergency situations. For example, it would have been correct to make a shelter near a fire, but this was not done.

[Ziljoe]

Ziljoe
We have a saying "demand creates supply". Now both you and we have survival courses where they teach what to do in emergency situations. For example, if you lose equipment on a hike or if you get lost in the forest, just going for a walk or for mushrooms.
About the bear. It was a small bear, and often in the case of a group attack, the bear will run away. But if you come across an adult bear, you will be a corpse if you attack him, and he will be serious.
The injury was accidental due to violations of the rules for handling weapons. And not very serious, plus there was more than one wounded person.
They had experience in camp life, but no experience in emergency situations. You know, in February 2022, we had a disaster. I saw how people who were very confident shooters at a shooting range or while hunting died because they did not know how to move in conditions of skirmishes. And they had colossal shooting experience.
Nowadays, many survival courses are more of a commercial project, and the students are completely urban people. For such people, a week's life in a tent without the Internet, pizza delivery and a hot bath is a disaster the first time.

ahabmyth
They had the knowledge, but they didn't have structured training on how to act in emergency situations. For example, it would have been correct to make a shelter near a fire, but this was not done.

Hunter

We too have the saying "demand creates supply" .  There is nothing I disagree with that you say. I don't know what you are trying to say in your comments when we all agree.

The hikers had experience , possibly not for every eventually but enough .

From your post I assume your argument is the hikers died through lack of experience in the situation they found themselves. ? 

[ahabmyth]

Ziljoe
We have a saying "demand creates supply". Now both you and we have survival courses where they teach what to do in emergency situations. For example, if you lose equipment on a hike or if you get lost in the forest, just going for a walk or for mushrooms.
About the bear. It was a small bear, and often in the case of a group attack, the bear will run away. But if you come across an adult bear, you will be a corpse if you attack him, and he will be serious.
The injury was accidental due to violations of the rules for handling weapons. And not very serious, plus there was more than one wounded person.
They had experience in camp life, but no experience in emergency situations. You know, in February 2022, we had a disaster. I saw how people who were very confident shooters at a shooting range or while hunting died because they did not know how to move in conditions of skirmishes. And they had colossal shooting experience.
Nowadays, many survival courses are more of a commercial project, and the students are completely urban people. For such people, a week's life in a tent without the Internet, pizza delivery and a hot bath is a disaster the first time.

ahabmyth
They had the knowledge, but they didn't have structured training on how to act in emergency situations. For example, it would have been correct to make a shelter near a fire, but this was not done.

You are correct Hunter. People in the West have known these things for a long long time. Russians under Communism is a doctrine of command and very structured, whilst under our structure we are free thinking and adaptable to change. I think this is what you mean and which doctrine wins we will see. However I dont think this applied to our hikers who had already had sufficient training for all such "emergencies" if that is what you are calling the scenario. However mother nature sometimes alters the playing field in a manner that is outside the realms of the normal thinking.

[Hunter]

Ziljoe, ahabmyth
Perhaps Google does a poor job of translating the text. The specifics of the interlocutor's language. I mean that no one prepared the Dyatlovites psychologically to act in such situations. For example, at my job, if I have to act in a stressful situation (when there is pressure from a big boss, time pressure), then my work is far from ideal. Yes, I will do it, but then, sitting in a calm environment, I understand that I would have done it differently if there had been no pressure on me, and as a result, perhaps, I would have even spent less time. Many survival courses pay a lot of attention to the psychological attitude and psychological preparation of a person. That is, to make sure that a person in a stressful situation does not fall into a stupor and does not wring his hands, but acts competently, perhaps even on "automatic" (reflexes).

[Ziljoe]

Ziljoe, ahabmyth
Perhaps Google does a poor job of translating the text. The specifics of the interlocutor's language. I mean that no one prepared the Dyatlovites psychologically to act in such situations. For example, at my job, if I have to act in a stressful situation (when there is pressure from a big boss, time pressure), then my work is far from ideal. Yes, I will do it, but then, sitting in a calm environment, I understand that I would have done it differently if there had been no pressure on me, and as a result, perhaps, I would have even spent less time. Many survival courses pay a lot of attention to the psychological attitude and psychological preparation of a person. That is, to make sure that a person in a stressful situation does not fall into a stupor and does not wring his hands, but acts competently, perhaps even on "automatic" (reflexes).

Hunter

It would be easier for us if you explained what you thought happened to the tourists.

If your thought is  they encountered bad weather and their deaths were caused by lack of experience, then please just say so.

We know that there were other different groups of hikers in the area in 1959 , we also know other  hikes happened before 1959 and after 1959. Various accidents happened on those hikes too.

We know that other wood stoves existed , that had fire arrestors at that same time and sometimes sparks got through and burnt holes in tents. They were about 3kg.

It is most probable that something overwhelmed them  , if they had better training , then perhaps that might have saved them? 

[Ziljoe]

Ziljoe
We have a saying "demand creates supply". Now both you and we have survival courses where they teach what to do in emergency situations. For example, if you lose equipment on a hike or if you get lost in the forest, just going for a walk or for mushrooms.
About the bear. It was a small bear, and often in the case of a group attack, the bear will run away. But if you come across an adult bear, you will be a corpse if you attack him, and he will be serious.
The injury was accidental due to violations of the rules for handling weapons. And not very serious, plus there was more than one wounded person.
They had experience in camp life, but no experience in emergency situations. You know, in February 2022, we had a disaster. I saw how people who were very confident shooters at a shooting range or while hunting died because they did not know how to move in conditions of skirmishes. And they had colossal shooting experience.
Nowadays, many survival courses are more of a commercial project, and the students are completely urban people. For such people, a week's life in a tent without the Internet, pizza delivery and a hot bath is a disaster the first time.

ahabmyth
They had the knowledge, but they didn't have structured training on how to act in emergency situations. For example, it would have been correct to make a shelter near a fire, but this was not done.

You are correct Hunter. People in the West have known these things for a long long time. Russians under Communism is a doctrine of command and very structured, whilst under our structure we are free thinking and adaptable to change. I think this is what you mean and which doctrine wins we will see. However I dont think this applied to our hikers who had already had sufficient training for all such "emergencies" if that is what you are calling the scenario. However mother nature sometimes alters the playing field in a manner that is outside the realms of the normal thinking.

The idea of one society being purely structured and another entirely free-thinking is a false dichotomy. Both systems have produced elements of individual initiative and collective action. From my perspective, both systems are failing and saying one doctrine will win fails to understand how such doctrine's came to be .

However, mother nature is indifferent.

[ahabmyth]

Well as regards their competency I dont see many failings. The only one that I can assume is that out of the 9 there wasn't one who would stand upto this overwhelming force, which is probably why they call it an overwhelming force. Thing is why didnt this force destroy the whole tent and kill the lot of them at the same time. The reason being it wasn't an overwhelming force. And everyone "should" know by now what I encountered back in 1985ish. Who was the hero that stood up against it - me, maybe because I'm dumb or maybe because I was in a drowsy half awake syndrome. I can suggest they encountered the same thing but were more alert than I, like my wife who scrambled to put her head under the covers. Ie there's a better place to be when something like this presents itself. Just writing this obviously brings back the memory and if you could put yourself in my place, if the both of us had seen "it" which way would we have gone, me trying to calm the wife or the wife's screaming would make me do the same. Obviously it would depend on our make-up, but unfortunately the 9 had similar makeups and panicked.


                                                                 Common sense isn't all that common.

[Hunter]

Ziljoe
I don't know what happened there. My opinion is that they were not prepared to deal with emergencies, possibly with the addition of additional stress factors.

Regarding stoves. I haven't come across them in reports from those years. Moreover, not every group on a ski trip had them.

If we exclude the option of deliberate murder of the group or poisoning with something, then it is quite possible that they could have survived and returned to the tent, if they had training (not “on paper”, so to speak) on actions in emergency situations.

ahabmyth, what did you encounter?

[RMK]

ahabmyth, what did you encounter?

He's probably referring to this previous post of his: https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=1799.msg26709#msg26709

[ahabmyth]

ahabmyth, what did you encounter?

He's probably referring to this previous post of his: https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=1799.msg26709#msg26709

Yes exactly what RMK said.