Experienced and skilled

[amashilu]

Something that puzzles me .... we have nine experienced, skilled, strong hikers, including one who had gone through World War II, and yet it is repeatedly suggested that one or more of them stepped into the wrong area of snow and fell into a ravine.  I'm pretty sure they knew they were near the water, so wouldn't they naturally be on the alert for this kind of danger? There are indications in the shape and pattern of the snow when water is underneath. Is it really likely that one -- or four -- of these skilled and experienced hikers simply fell through some snow into a rocky ravine?

[Senior Maldonado]

Something that puzzles me .... we have nine experienced, skilled, strong hikers, including one who had gone through World War II, and yet it is repeatedly suggested that one or more of them stepped into the wrong area of snow and fell into a ravine.  I'm pretty sure they knew they were near the water, so wouldn't they naturally be on the alert for this kind of danger? There are indications in the shape and pattern of the snow when water is underneath. Is it really likely that one -- or four -- of these skilled and experienced hikers simply fell through some snow into a rocky ravine?

That should not be the case. Four hikers started to make a den in the ravine using young trees as flooring. In May the trees' trunks were found almost at the bottom of the ravine. This indicates that there was little snow there -- most probably the ravine represented mixture of rocks and snow, it was not covered by snow in a way that it could be possible to fall through snow and get injured. The hikers should be able to clearly see ravine's landscape and avoid any potentially dangerous areas. At the same time, I do not argue that all 4 hikers received their horrible injuries in the ravine.  Actually, they lied on their wounds, and it looks like some force knocked them down and pushed against rocks. The only exception was Aleksandr Kolevatov, but he might fell on snow, not on a rock, that's why his bones remained intact.

Despite Mr.Vozrozhdenny remark that Luda could be able to move for about 20 minutes and Semyon even longer, I do not think that anybody moved an inch after the deadly impact occurred. Probably all of them lied motionless, unconscious until they died. And there were nobody alive to move their bodies, as they had done previously with two Yuras. By the end of February heaps of snow covered the ravine up to the top with people and den's flooring at the bottom.

[Ziljoe]

Something that puzzles me .... we have nine experienced, skilled, strong hikers, including one who had gone through World War II, and yet it is repeatedly suggested that one or more of them stepped into the wrong area of snow and fell into a ravine.  I'm pretty sure they knew they were near the water, so wouldn't they naturally be on the alert for this kind of danger? There are indications in the shape and pattern of the snow when water is underneath. Is it really likely that one -- or four -- of these skilled and experienced hikers simply fell through some snow into a rocky ravine?

Many hikers fall through snow holes or cornices, irrelevant of their experience or skills.  I am pretty confident that others that walked the area of the ravine reported falling into snow drifts and falling through soft or unsupported snow drifts. This is why skis and snow shoes exist. We don't know if the ravine was full of snow , empty or bits of it were filled in.

Below we can see the start of a cornice from "RAVINE BY SHURA ALEKSEENKOV AND SASHA KAN" 2019. Below this build up of snow , the stream is well hidden . Also remember that those in the video know there's a stream , haven't built a labaz , haven't climbed 1079 , dug a snow trench and pitched a tent to then be startled by something in the middle of the night that forces them to navigate a slope with rocks and gulley . It was a long day for the Dyatlov group and context is important.


 https://dyatlovpass.com/ravine-alekseenkov-and-kan#:~:text=RAVINE%20BY%20SHURA%20ALEKSEENKOV%20AND%20SASHA%20KAN

Video of the ravine and potential conditions below
https://youtu.be/hVDsAmRz9a8?si=XgWKDzywkDS_sqy5

Video of falling ( slowly) through the cornice/snow bridge below.

https://youtu.be/5-Wd1I5b8b8?si=ukVv4BUT1enq7h2n

The terrain in a forest is very uneven and varies in depth of snow which can be extremely exhausting to navigate, we know there can be drifts of snow up to and over 3 meters , the ability of that snow to be able to support a human will vary every season. However , this does not mean the hikers fell or were crushed  in the ravine but equally it doesn't mean they weren't.

That should not be the case. Four hikers started to make a den in the ravine using young trees as flooring. In May the trees' trunks were found almost at the bottom of the ravine. This indicates that there was little snow there -- most probably the ravine represented mixture of rocks and snow, it was not covered by snow in a way that it could be possible to fall through snow and get injured. The hikers should be able to clearly see ravine's landscape and avoid any potentially dangerous areas. At the same time, I do not argue that all 4 hikers received their horrible injuries in the ravine.  Actually, they lied on their wounds, and it looks like some force knocked them down and pushed against rocks. The only exception was Aleksandr Kolevatov, but he might fell on snow, not on a rock, that's why his bones remained intact.

Despite Mr.Vozrozhdenny remark that Luda could be able to move for about 20 minutes and Semyon even longer, I do not think that anybody moved an inch after the deadly impact occurred. Probably all of them lied motionless, unconscious until they died. And there were nobody alive to move their bodies, as they had done previously with two Yuras. By the end of February heaps of snow covered the ravine up to the top with people and den's flooring at the bottom.

Unfortunately we don't know how deep the snow was , however they were basically found at ground or stream bed level and it is a mystery. There was evidently movement between the cedar and the ravine but I do wonder which came first. The den or the fire.

[amashilu]

Yes, but they knew the ravine was there, and all of their cumulative skills and experience, not to mention the extra advantage of a WW II veteran, should make falling through the snow into the ravine an unlikely occurrence. It is more of a rookie mistake.

My brother and I spent much of our childhood exploring the snowy, frozen creeks of northern Minnesota and we learned to recognize depressions in the snow, softening melty snow, trickling sounds, and other signs indicating that we were close to a ravine. I get what you're saying, Ziljoe, but I still think falling through the snow into the ravine they knew was there, is unlikely.

Senior Maldonado suggests that they didn't fall through the snow, but some force smacked them against the rocks in the ravine. Now I'm wondering about that. What force might be able to do that?

[Ziljoe]

I'm not sure that the hikers would have known exactly where the stream was and if there was or wasn't a depression in the snow. Anyway, it's an obstacle or feature in the landscape , they obviously crossed the ravine or some other part of the stream. I would whole heartedly say that when they crossed the stream someone got wet. Some of the banks are quite steep without snow , if there were different depths to the snow , on the banks and over the stream then stumbles ,slipes and falls would occur. I even gave consideration that the den flooring may have been a bridge at ground level to aid some sort of crossing .

I favour a collapse of snow from above but that has its holes too.

I am waiting for Senior Maldonado with mild anticipation too. 

[Hunter]

You've overdone it with the Dyatlov group's experience. And Zolotarev's was quite unique.

[SURI]

Now I'm wondering about that. What force might be able to do that?

The force of gravity acted here. The decisive factor was the way they walked and fell here – in pairs. They were simply too heavy at that moment in that place. They fell and did not move again, and no one else was alive.

[SURI]

Ziljoe
„ ..but I do wonder which came first. The den or the fire.“

Fire and then den.

[Senior Maldonado]

I favour a collapse of snow from above but that has its holes too.
I am waiting for Senior Maldonado with mild anticipation too.

Even big mass of snow could not be resposible for the Ravine 4 injuries. I would rather stick with doctor Vozrozhdenny's comment, which he provided during his interrogation on May 28th -- the hikers were affected by explosive air wave. Wave's front acts as a big hummer, it strikes, throws people to the ground. Front is immediately followed by zone of very high pressure. And in our case that high-pressure airflow acted as a press. It pushed the hikers into creek's rocks and fractured their bones.  The wave acted from up to down and from slope to the forest (=ravine). Slope->Forest component of the force overturned people to the ground, while Up->Down component pressed their bodies into rocks. I do not believe anybody was able to move after that. And then timer started what would come first -- death from injuries or death from hypothermia.

Please, do not throw stones at me, it's how I see that sad episode...

[SURI]

For a mass of snow to cover them while they were still alive is nonsense. They would end up suffocating. There was a selective force at work in the ravine. It broke some people's ribs, it protected others' ribs, and others suffered head injuries. This is because Luda and Zolotaryov were pressed from two sides – from the ground and from the body of the other in the pair. The second pair had different injuries because they came into contact with the ground at a different point.

[amashilu]

I would rather stick with doctor Vozrozhdenny's comment, which he provided during his interrogation on May 28th -- the hikers were affected by explosive air wave.

I am inclined to agree with you, Senior Maldonado. An explosive air wave checks all the boxes. It could also account for Krivonischenko's leg burn, Teddy's tree falling, and the so-called "window" in the cedar where all the thick branches were torn off.

[Ziljoe]

I would rather stick with doctor Vozrozhdenny's comment, which he provided during his interrogation on May 28th -- the hikers were affected by explosive air wave.

I am inclined to agree with you, Senior Maldonado. An explosive air wave checks all the boxes. It could also account for Krivonischenko's leg burn, Teddy's tree falling, and the so-called "window" in the cedar where all the thick branches were torn off.

I would disagree . It may tick a couple of boxes but certainly not all.

1), the branches on the cedar were used to make a fire and insulation around the fire. There are no reports of any sort of blast wave on any other trees or any other reports of debris in the snow layers  , which , given my lack of expertise in the matter , I would expect to be reported by the searchers and Mansi hunters. The only debris found were during the thaw and that is the trail of twigs and clothes to the den  . In my opinion there would be significant evidence off broken twigs , trees, branches , pine needles within in the layer of snow that would stick out lick a sore thumb .

2)doctor Vozrozhdenny said many things and many people have said he said things without saying everything he said. doctor Vozrozhdenny also says  that the injuries could have been caused by a fall, squeeze , car crash. Ultimately he implies a high impact.

3) he does not say "the hikers were affected by explosive air wave".

Here is the transcript when Ivanov asks him.

Question: How can the origin of the injuries to Dubinina and Zolotarev be explained? Can they be linked to a single cause?

Answer: I believe the nature of Dubinina and Zolotarev's injuries—multiple rib fractures: bilateral and symmetrical in Dubinina's, unilateral in Zolotarev's—as well as hemorrhaging into the cardiac muscle in both Dubinina and Zolotarev, with hemorrhaging into the pleural cavities, indicate that they were injured while they were still alive and are the result of a high-force impact, approximately the same as that applied to Thibault. These injuries, specifically with this pattern and without disruption of the soft tissues of the chest, are very similar to an injury caused by an air blast.
[/u]


He says very similar , it is this paraphrasing that annoys me . It is quite acceptable that he gives an opinion but it is not a fact , it is also acceptable that some sort of potential theory involving a blast wave is considered but to say or imply it is a fact and that what was said is misleading.

Context is important. What did Vozrozhdenny actually say and Which statement is true?

A)"the hikers were affected by explosive air wave"

Or

B)"are very similar to an injury caused by an air blast"

Apologies to all but the DPI is full of this.

[Ziljoe]

I favour a collapse of snow from above but that has its holes too.
I am waiting for Senior Maldonado with mild anticipation too.

Even big mass of snow could not be resposible for the Ravine 4 injuries. I would rather stick with doctor Vozrozhdenny's comment, which he provided during his interrogation on May 28th -- the hikers were affected by explosive air wave. Wave's front acts as a big hummer, it strikes, throws people to the ground. Front is immediately followed by zone of very high pressure. And in our case that high-pressure airflow acted as a press. It pushed the hikers into creek's rocks and fractured their bones.  The wave acted from up to down and from slope to the forest (=ravine). Slope->Forest component of the force overturned people to the ground, while Up->Down component pressed their bodies into rocks. I do not believe anybody was able to move after that. And then timer started what would come first -- death from injuries or death from hypothermia.

Please, do not throw stones at me, it's how I see that sad episode...

Some say a crushing by snow , some say it's not possible.


Your doctor does not say. "the hikers were affected by explosive air wave".

He speculates it is a similar. That is, to what might have happened but he does not say what evidence would be in the local environment that would confirm your conclusion.

Please do not make facts out of speculation.

[amashilu]

"Please do not make facts out of speculation."

Ziljoe, your emphasis on facts is, as always, laudable. However, there are not enough facts in this mystery to come to a conclusion. Therefore, speculation, new points of view, and thinking outside the box, are welcome and encouraged.

[Ziljoe]

"Please do not make facts out of speculation."

Ziljoe, your emphasis on facts is, as always, laudable. However, there are not enough facts in this mystery to come to a conclusion. Therefore, speculation, new points of view, and thinking outside the box, are welcome and encouraged.

There are some facts , we just don't need to have them confused. When someone puts a case or theory forward, it is indeed a great thing. I can assure you I am not confident in my own interpretation of event's.

However,  saying an important witness from the case files  said "the hikers were affected by explosive air wave" is misleading the reader when what is actually said , "are very similar to an injury caused by an air blast" does not help new readers .

You have agreed with and re-quoted a miss quote. I really don't think that helps the forum but by all means , carry on with the idea of some air blast or explosion that no one reported any possibility of. 

[SURI]

Yes, it would be very strange if the blast wave chose only one tree and exactly the one where the fire was and left the tourists lying almost in a row next to each other in the ravine.

[Senior Maldonado]

Your doctor does not say. "the hikers were affected by explosive air wave".

He speculates it is a similar. That is, to what might have happened but he does not say what evidence would be in the local environment that would confirm your conclusion.

Please do not make facts out of speculation.

When I said that I leveraged on Mr.Vozrozhdenny comment, i did not quote him. There were my own words how I understand what happened with Ravine 4 hikers. Moreover, I fully agree, if we take doctor's exact words alone, it gives us nothing, just one more option that needs to be investigated. And then, it's a matter of approach. My approach is to proceed from the point where Ivanov and his team had to stop in 1959. I do not think that now anybody is able to perform new investigation from point zero and come to the right cause. For me it makes no sense to introduce options that are not even mentioned in the 1959 files like an avalanche or hidden cavity in snow in the ravine.

Concerning the blast --
As Mr.Vozrozhdenny's mentioning of an air wave set certain trigger, we should see where to go next. And the next stop in that direction is another comment, which was provided by Lev Ivanov in the "Fireballs Mystery" article:

"When already in May we examined the scene of the incident with E. Maslennikov we found that some young trees on the forest tree line have traces of burning, but they are not in concentric shape or any other system. There was no epicenter."

Where were those trees found? At the forest tree line, which is right behind the ravine, where 4 bodies were found. And Ivanov found it necessary to mention those trees in the article, where he tried to summarize all important facts and conclusions about DPI. It's very unlikely that he would have wasted his time diverting to talk about just naturally sick trees or trees touched by sunlight. In case of sunlight, there should have been clear pattern, the trees would have been affected from the South and not from the North. Talking about possible epicenter Ivanov provides clear signal that looking at the trees he suspected flames from an explosion first of all.

There are further steps on this investigation path. Follow it or not, as I said, is a matter of approach.

[Ziljoe]

Your doctor does not say. "the hikers were affected by explosive air wave".

He speculates it is a similar. That is, to what might have happened but he does not say what evidence would be in the local environment that would confirm your conclusion.

Please do not make facts out of speculation.

When I said that I leveraged on Mr.Vozrozhdenny comment, i did not quote him. There were my own words how I understand what happened with Ravine 4 hikers. Moreover, I fully agree, if we take doctor's exact words alone, it gives us nothing, just one more option that needs to be investigated. And then, it's a matter of approach. My approach is to proceed from the point where Ivanov and his team had to stop in 1959. I do not think that now anybody is able to perform new investigation from point zero and come to the right cause. For me it makes no sense to introduce options that are not even mentioned in the 1959 files like an avalanche or hidden cavity in snow in the ravine.

Concerning the blast --
As Mr.Vozrozhdenny's mentioning of an air wave set certain trigger, we should see where to go next. And the next stop in that direction is another comment, which was provided by Lev Ivanov in the "Fireballs Mystery" article:

"When already in May we examined the scene of the incident with E. Maslennikov we found that some young trees on the forest tree line have traces of burning, but they are not in concentric shape or any other system. There was no epicenter."

Where were those trees found? At the forest tree line, which is right behind the ravine, where 4 bodies were found. And Ivanov found it necessary to mention those trees in the article, where he tried to summarize all important facts and conclusions about DPI. It's very unlikely that he would have wasted his time diverting to talk about just naturally sick trees or trees touched by sunlight. In case of sunlight, there should have been clear pattern, the trees would have been affected from the South and not from the North. Talking about possible epicenter Ivanov provides clear signal that looking at the trees he suspected flames from an explosion first of all.

There are further steps on this investigation path. Follow it or not, as I said, is a matter of approach.

I love your questioning of what was or what might be. . could you give a diagram of the trees he was referring to as I get mixed up . I didn't read anything about the trees from the north being burnt. I'm a also a bit confused about why he said there was no epicenter. What does this mean?

[amashilu]

Lev Ivanov: " .... When already in May we examined the scene of the incident with E. Maslennikov * * we found that some young trees on the forest tree line have traces of burning, but they are not in concentric shape or any other system. There was no epicenter. This once again confirmed a source of heat ray or completely unknown to us energy acting selectively - the snow was not melted, the trees were not damaged."

He is saying that there was no pattern. The damaged trees seemed randomly selected or targeted almost as if on purpose.

[Ziljoe]

Exactly. Would that not be the opposite of an explosion or blast ?

[Senior Maldonado]

Could you give a diagram of the trees he was referring to as I get mixed up.

Sure. Here you are. The ravine, where the 4 bodies were found, was located right in front of the forest -- its tree line. And Lev Ivanov spoke about young trees that had been lightly burned with no obvious pattern and had been somewhere at the tree line. Unfortunately, Mr.Ivanov has not provided more precise location of the young trees.

[SURI]

Could you give a diagram of the trees he was referring to as I get mixed up.

Sure. Here you are. The ravine, where the 4 bodies were found, was located right in front of the forest -- its tree line. And Lev Ivanov spoke about young trees that had been lightly burned with no obvious pattern and had been somewhere at the tree line. Unfortunately, Mr.Ivanov has not provided more precise location of the young trees.

When it's dark, you need light.

[SURI]

It's no mystery. The four needed to see and at the same time needed to have their hands free, so they solved it this way. One can also agree with Ivanov's next statement.

„It seemed like when the hikers walked on their feet more than five hundred meters down from the mountain, someone dealt with some of them as direct targets.“

On the slope, an unknown (known) force demonstrated what it can do.

[Senior Maldonado]

Would that not be the opposite of an explosion or blast ?

OK, let's make an attempt to understand what it could be.

Obviously, on finding young trees that were lightly burned, Ivanov started to look for traces of possible explosion, as he talks about epicenter. But he failed to find one. This matches his another comment that there was no pattern in how the trees had been burned. If a classic bomb is detonated, the epicenter is the bomb's body at the moment of explosion. Depending on what is bomb's body position towards a tree, the tree will be burned more at the bomb's side and less at the opposite side. The same is true if a bomb is detonated above a tree -- lower branches will be affected less than upper ones. But in Ivanov's case, as he says "no pattern", it was not possible to detect from which direction flames came. All that made him think about "heat ray or completely unknown to us energy acting selectively".

My conclusion is quite different from Ivanov's. "No pattern" and randomly scattered burns from all sides of the trees probably mean that some flamable substance was dispersed in the air unevenly. Then someting ignited it. And concentration of that substance was low, since the young trees were burned just lightly while other trees did not have visible burns. In this case, indeed, there was no epicenter, or if you like, there were many small epicenters in the air in the area, where the young trees were located.

[Ziljoe]

There are several explanations for his observations.

Could he not be witnessing windburn or winterburn. It fits his description perfectly. It is strange that no other person mentions this , especially the Mansi as the caretakers and workers of the land or the forester's. If he witnessed this burning , why would he not say that it was not wind burn.

The treeline means the edge of the forest and your picture is of the edge of the ridge( still exposed to the wind) . The snow has been thawing and it is spring and this wind burn occurs from the wind more than the sun and it occurs at treelines . There would be no epicenter exactly as he describes?



"It seemed like when the hikers walked on their feet more than five hundred meters down from the mountain, someone dealt with some of them as direct targets.“

By all accounts he seems to have let his imagination wonder to try and fit what he couldn't understand. He doesn't give a date for this conclusion and he was hardly at the pass .

[Senior Maldonado]

Could he not be witnessing windburn or winterburn. It fits his description perfectly. It is strange that no other person mentions this , especially the Mansi as the caretakers and workers of the land or the forester's. If he witnessed this burning , why would he not say that it was not wind burn.

I assume that Ivanov was experienced and thorough investigator. I see no reason for him to talk about "heat ray" or "completely unknown energy", if he faced just sick branches dried by winter wind. And Maslennikov, who was master of hiking, should have seen a lot of trees exposed to wind in winter. He would have stopped Ivanov in his search for epicenter and explain him that such a picture is normal.

You say that Mansi do not mention burned young tress. Are there any Mansi evidence available, where they talk about the slope and the ravine areas?

[Ziljoe]

I think I read somewhere that Ivanov didn't see the finished article before print and the press or media have always exaggerated their articles for sales. There a number of contradictory statements in the article and this is highlighted in another thread on the dyatlov website.

I have no way to measure if ivanov was experienced  and thorough and I don't know if Maslennikov even mentions these burnt looking trees. If Ivanovo was thorough then it begs the question why he didn't take some branches for analysis, especially when he claims the place was radio active or state that he eliminated the possibility that it was not windburn. He just states a visual observation and speculates a heat ray and some energy. Hardly thorough in my opinion, when you investigate, you also eliminate possibilities and find out .

It also peculiar that he doesn't state this in the casefiles when he is informed of the autopsy results and that an air blast could cause such injuries.

I don't recall the Masni mentioning burnt tree's, it would be exciting if the have.

However, pushing my cynical side away , let's run with what we have got.

Injuries that are similar to an air blast , some potential singed trees that could be caused by some sort of fuel combustion in the air ?

[SURI]

It seems strange to me that some energy from the air would only choose young trees and some of them at that. It looks more like they were chosen intentionally for their availability and ease of ignition to illuminate the area and provide better orientation. It's darker in the forest after all. And since they were covered in snow, the burning took on different forms.

[SURI]

"It seemed like when the hikers walked on their feet more than five hundred meters down from the mountain, someone dealt with some of them as direct targets.“

By all accounts he seems to have let his imagination wonder to try and fit what he couldn't understand. He doesn't give a date for this conclusion and he was hardly at the pass .

If dead hikers were actually found on the slope, it cannot be fantasy, but reality. After a direct hit from an unknown (known) force, these 3 hikers did not make it any further.

[Senior Maldonado]

If dead hikers were actually found on the slope, it cannot be fantasy, but reality. After a direct hit from an unknown (known) force, these 3 hikers did not make it any further.

Zina, Rustem, and Igor were found on a single line, which went from the Cedar tree uphill, probably straight to the tent. The search team mentioned that those hikers laid on the ground in "dynamic poses", as though they died very quickly (got frozen on march?). This allows to put forward a theory that all 3 of them attempted to go back to the tent but managed to cover just part of distance, which is weird as all three were strong and trained.

This further allows to develop the theory that something killed them very quickly, as soon as they crossed invisible border. It could be that when UFO (Ivanov calls it this way) landed close to the tent, and its hard landing collapsed northen part of the tent, the tent's site got into affected zone. On levaing the tent, hikers somehow evaluated size of the affected zone and moved out of it, eventually coming to the Cedar tree. When it became critical to fetch missing clothes, equipment, medicine, Zina, Rustem, and Igor tried to go back in turn. But they did not take into account that the affected zone kept expanding in direction to the ravine/Cedar. As soon as a hiker reached front of approaching affected zone, he/she died very quickly. Finally, affected zone reached the ravine, and that was end of the story.