What has religion got to do with the DPI?

[Missi]

First of all, I'm sorry, if this shouldn't go down in the subforum, but I'm not looking for a purely religious discussion about the DPI, rather I'm confused and hope, someone can enlighten me.

When I first joined here, I believe there was no subforum about religious theories about what happened with the dyatlovites. Maybe I'm mistaken and only forgot about it. When I came back just now, I was very confused as to what religion could have to do with everything, especially considering, that the USSR was - as far as I was told - about as atheist as they come.
I tried to read the threads in the according subforum. I tried to get a glimpse of what is supposed to be explained. I can't make head nor tail of it.

Is anyone able to explain, what religion - aside maybe from that of the Mansi, if you consider them as being a vital part of what happened - has to do with the DPI? And preferable in a short consistent summery? Thanks.

If this does not belong here or doubles or whatever, please tell me, point me in the right direction and move the thread to wherever it belongs. Thanks.

[Axelrod]

The fact is that the investigation of the Dyatlov Pass incident is itself a religion. People fervently believe in certain theories, such as the miracles of the Bible. It's essentially a new religion.

I'm using an analogy. We know the Gospel of Matthew and Luke (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John).
Similarly, here, we have similar witnesses in the criminal case, only with different names (Slobtsov, Sogrin, Karelin, Chernyshov and others).

Also we have 4 witness testimonies about fireballs.

As for the Mansi religion, there are no clear indications that the Mansi were involved in this event.

[GlennM]

It has been said there are no atheists on a sinking ship. The same could be said for the DP9. The larger question is about Divine intervention. One school of thought is that God, the Supreme Being and Unmoved Mover, exists out of space and time and therefore does nothing to change physical events. Praying and offering sacrifice changes nothing. The opposite view is that God exists in the same reality as you and I. This belief is the foundation of many religions. Consequently,  prayer, sacrifice and devotion are methods the faithful employ to invoke God (or the gods) to alter events to produce a favorable outcome.

God does not take tests, so God's existance can not be proven, nor falsified, but God or the gods can be believed.
Additionally, the fear of eternal damnation provides extra incentive to be faithful.
Karl Marx said religion is the opiate of the people, yet people believe in spite of political pressure to abandon beliefs. Each of the Dyatlovites had their own world view and some idea about what lies beyond death, It is tragic that an indifferent set of weather driven circumstances accelerated their fateful exit from this life.

Religion could well have played a part in their thinking, but deliverance was not granted.

[Missi]

The fact is that the investigation of the Dyatlov Pass incident is itself a religion. People fervently believe in certain theories, such as the miracles of the Bible. It's essentially a new religion.

Yes, for some people that seems to be true. Although I rather discuss events with those providing proof or at least plausibility instead of belief.

I'm using an analogy. We know the Gospel of Matthew and Luke (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John).
Similarly, here, we have similar witnesses in the criminal case, only with different names (Slobtsov, Sogrin, Karelin, Chernyshov and others).

Also we have 4 witness testimonies about fireballs.

Sure. We have the tales of different people that wrote down what they were told (in case of the Bible) or what they saw / remembered of that they saw / think they saw (in case of the DPI). I'm not quite sure, where that leads us.

As for the Mansi religion, there are no clear indications that the Mansi were involved in this event.

Agreed.

It has been said there are no atheists on a sinking ship. The same could be said for the DP9. The larger question is about Divine intervention. One school of thought is that God, the Supreme Being and Unmoved Mover, exists out of space and time and therefore does nothing to change physical events. Praying and offering sacrifice changes nothing. The opposite view is that God exists in the same reality as you and I. This belief is the foundation of many religions. Consequently,  prayer, sacrifice and devotion are methods the faithful employ to invoke God (or the gods) to alter events to produce a favorable outcome.

God does not take tests, so God's existance can not be proven, nor falsified, but God or the gods can be believed.
Additionally, the fear of eternal damnation provides extra incentive to be faithful.
Karl Marx said religion is the opiate of the people, yet people believe in spite of political pressure to abandon beliefs. Each of the Dyatlovites had their own world view and some idea about what lies beyond death, It is tragic that an indifferent set of weather driven circumstances accelerated their fateful exit from this life.

Religion could well have played a part in their thinking, but deliverance was not granted.

Sure, if you find your life threatened, you start praying. (Or to quote the Simpsons: "I'm praying. To Buddha, Jesus, Spongebob...") But that's an entire different thing. We try to prove what happened, but we can't even prove the existence of one or several gods, so how could we prove they intervened? Especially since the hikers died, whether they prayed or not, they were not saved, so it doesn't matter what they believed in of whether they prayed in the end. So what's religion got to do with anything?

[Axelrod]

Prayer is clearly associated with Christianity, but other religions are less closely associated with prayer.
In the context of religion, prayer is almost unimportant.

[Missi]

I'd say, that depends. According to wikipedia, besides Christianity, also Judaism and Islam know prayer (which makes sense, since they are related), but also Hinduism, Buddhism, Shintoism and pacific religions know forms of prayers. I can definitely confirm, that (neo)pagans know prayer. Maybe we don't define it the same way.

However we're beginning to stray. The initial question was: What's the point in looking at religion in connection to the DPI?

[GlennM]

The religious impact is more about comforting the living then and now. Was their tragedy caused by poor choices  or fate. If they chose poorly, then we can blame them. If it was circumstamce, then we blame fate. But, if God, or the gods control fate and destiny, then we must wrestle with defining the Almighty as wrathful, at least in this case

Religion in the DPI is more a mirror relfecting our values, not theirs. In the forum, I think it highlights those whose believe in the nobility and/ or the wickedness of people and their eternal judgement.

[Axelrod]

Let me try to explain it to you. The formulation the investigators used to explain the deaths of nine people, as Yudin explained, was taken from Roman law. As we know, the Roman Empire disappeared a long time ago. Those were ancient times when people believed the earth floated on three whales, that the sun revolved around the earth, and similar things. Science at that time was very underdeveloped, for example, to explain Archimedes' principle.

So, the investigators in 1959 found themselves in a situation where they could explain it only as the work of an evil spirit. But since the term "evil spirit" was absent from the criminal code, they used the term "force majeure" from Roman law, modeled on the ancient world. Some incomprehensible force that the tourists were unable to overcome. In other words, a higher power, inaccessible to understanding.

[Missi]

The religious impact is more about any comfort the living, then and now, people derive from the event. Humans ascribe events to cause and effect or to fate. Cause and effect imply that they had choices in the matter and chose poorly. That, in turn disparages their memory.

Fate means choice is an illusion, destiny is inevetable. If you substitute God for the word Fate, then you have the idea that Divine Providence was at play, or more simply, God called them home. That explanation is far more satisfying to people of faith than the alternate explanation that they were victims of an indifferent Nature.

To sum up, the religious aspect of the mystery can be thought of as a salve for those wounded by the loss of loved ones or an invitation to plumb the depths of what our own mortality means since we too will go the way the DP9 did.

So what you're saying is: We discuss the influence of religion on the DPI, because some people can't cope with the fact that things happen and people die, including themselves, one day?
I for one find it much more relaxing to think the hikers were victims of an unfortunate accident then some being deciding "no, you're gonna die, just because". But hey, that's just me...

Let me try to explain it to you. The formulation the investigators used to explain the deaths of nine people, as Yudin explained, was taken from Roman law. As we know, the Roman Empire disappeared a long time ago. Those were ancient times when people believed the earth floated on three whales, that the sun revolved around the earth, and similar things. Science at that time was very underdeveloped, for example, to explain Archimedes' principle.

So, the investigators in 1959 found themselves in a situation where they could explain it only as the work of an evil spirit. But since the term "evil spirit" was absent from the criminal code, they used the term "force majeure" from Roman law, modeled on the ancient world. Some incomprehensible force that the tourists were unable to overcome. In other words, a higher power, inaccessible to understanding.

Well, they couldn't explain what happened. So it's logical to conclude, based on the injuries, that there was a very big force that effected the hikers. But what does that have to do with evil spirits? Sure people in earlier days thought, that those are responsible for illness and the like, because they had no better explanation. The people in 1959 called it unknown force. We try to find out what it actually was. Were does religion come in?

[GlennM]

"So what you're saying is: We discuss the influence of religion on the DPI, because some people can't cope with the fact that things happen and people die, including themselves, one day?
I for one find it much more relaxing to think the hikers were victims of an unfortunate accident then some being deciding "no, you're gonna die, just because". But hey, that's just me... "

I think people well know things happen and we are all mortal. The explanation for things happening can be attributed to chance and fate. By doing so, an individual takes no ownership for either the event or the consequences. It becomes, I was lucky or I was unlucky. In a court of law, a defendant will not get to far by pleading that way. The law holds the individual accountable. " Do you love it, do you hate it? There it is the way you made it!"

You opt for the hikers being victims of circumstance. Therefore, religion and the manipulation of the laws of physics by a diety, are insufficient. You are a reasonable person who is aware that bad things can happen to good people. It is a far too common truth. Congratulations on your insight.

[Missi]

"So what you're saying is: We discuss the influence of religion on the DPI, because some people can't cope with the fact that things happen and people die, including themselves, one day?
I for one find it much more relaxing to think the hikers were victims of an unfortunate accident then some being deciding "no, you're gonna die, just because". But hey, that's just me... "

I think people well know things happen and we are all mortal. The explanation for things happening can be attributed to chance and fate. By doing so, an individual takes no ownership for either the event or the consequences. It becomes, I was lucky or I was unlucky. In a court of law, a defendant will not get to far by pleading that way. The law holds the individual accountable. " Do you love it, do you hate it? There it is the way you made it!"


You opt for the hikers being victims of circumstance. Therefore, religion and the manipulation of the laws of physics by a diety, are insufficient. You are a reasonable person who is aware that bad things can happen to good people. It is a far too common truth. Congratulations on your insight.

Thanks.
But I'm still wondering, why there is a special subforum for religious theories connected to the DPI. I still can't wrap me brain around what a religious theory should be. Religion can't explain what happened there.

[amashilu]

But I'm still wondering, why there is a special subforum for religious theories connected to the DPI. I still can't wrap me brain around what a religious theory should be. Religion can't explain what happened there.

Missi — There was not a Religious Connections topic until last year when a forum member posted a message giving his opinions of a religious connection to the DPI. This post didn't fit with any of the topics we had at the time, so we opened a Religious Connections topic for it.
— Amashilu, moderator

[Axelrod]

I understand your irritation with religion, but I'm a science expert myself.
But the way you're trying to explain all this through science sounds very dubious.
We can explain it through religion; there are fewer contradictions.

[amashilu]

But the way you're trying to explain all this through science sounds very dubious.
We can explain it through religion; there are fewer contradictions.

Yes, there are fewer contradictions because anything can be explained by religion, since it doesn't require adhering to facts. One can cite as "evidence" blind faith, miracles, what one's grandmother said one stormy night, magic, amazing coincidences, you-name-it.

[Missi]

I understand your irritation with religion, but I'm a science expert myself.
But the way you're trying to explain all this through science sounds very dubious.
We can explain it through religion; there are fewer contradictions.

Why is it dubious to explain through science? Either we can explain what happened and prove it, or it's A the wrong explanation or B proof was (willingly or accidentally) lost. In that case, we need another explanation (if A) or must try to find that lost proof (if B). That might result in the fact, that we will never know, what really happened.

Explaining with religious theories is like proving one mathematical theorem with another that was not proved before. Or in other words: In order to use theories as to what happened at the pass, one would first have to prove that any kind of deity exists and does indeed influence out world.

[Axelrod]

In any case, your choice of explanation will be a matter of some faith. Let's say you believe in a certain scientific solution based on some external evidence.

For example, there was a recent train collision in Spain. The cause of the accident remains unclear. You may believe in the wrong solution.

Belief in a religious solution cannot be wrong. The investigator correctly chose the solution about a higher power because it is most likely the right solution.

[Ziljoe]

In any case, your choice of explanation will be a matter of some faith. Let's say you believe in a certain scientific solution based on some external evidence.

For example, there was a recent train collision in Spain. The cause of the accident remains unclear. You may believe in the wrong solution.

Belief in a religious solution cannot be wrong. The investigator correctly chose the solution about a higher power because it is most likely the right solution.

What investigator chose a solution about a higher power?

It says this in the report. Two translations.

"Considering the absence of external bodily injuries and signs of struggle on all the bodies, the presence of all the group's valuables, and also taking into account the conclusion of the forensic medical examination regarding the cause of death of the tourists, it should be assumed that the cause of death of the tourists was a natural force that the tourists were unable to overcome."

"Considering the absence of external injuries to the bodies or signs of a fight, the presence of all the valuables of the group, and also taking into account the conclusion of the medical examinations for the causes of the deaths of the hikers, it is concluded that the cause of their demise was overwhelming force, which the hikers were not able to overcome"

[Axelrod]

elemental force is a correct translation

[Ziljoe]

elemental force is a correct translation

So  they were overcome by a natural force, they imply weather , nature and the conditions but the investigators did not know which one or combination.

"i]elemental
/ˌɛlɪˈmɛntl/
"Elemental" means relating to fundamental forces or basic constituents, describing things as simple, natural, primal, or related to the classical elements (earth, air, fire, water) or chemical elements, often implying great, raw power, like an "elemental storm" or "elemental emotions". It can also refer to being a basic building block, like "elemental needs," or something elementary and fundamental, like core principles.
Key Meanings:
Fundamental/Basic: Pertaining to the simplest, most essential part of something.
Example: elemental needs for survival like food and water.
Natural Forces: Relating to the powerful, untamed forces of nature (wind, water, fire, earth) or powerful emotions.
Example: The elemental fury of the volcano.
Chemical: Of or existing as a pure, uncombined chemical element.
Elementary: Dealing with the rudiments or first principles of a subject.
Example: learning elemental algebra.
Synonyms:
Basic, fundamental, essential, primal, primitive, elementary, natural, inherent. [/i]"

[Axelrod]

For example
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/6-alRmmhDZk
(Poland unable to cope with frost
The authorities are unable to resolve the situation.
Snowfalls have hit the country.)

[Ziljoe]

For example
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/6-alRmmhDZk
(Poland unable to cope with frost
The authorities are unable to resolve the situation.
Snowfalls have hit the country.)

Sorry Axelrod . I don't understand what your example means. It snows in Poland?

[Missi]

In any case, your choice of explanation will be a matter of some faith. Let's say you believe in a certain scientific solution based on some external evidence.

For example, there was a recent train collision in Spain. The cause of the accident remains unclear. You may believe in the wrong solution.

Belief in a religious solution cannot be wrong. The investigator correctly chose the solution about a higher power because it is most likely the right solution.

No, that's exactly the difference. You can base yourself on science and proof. Then you find proof as long es it's possible. Or you end up with we can't explain that yet.
Or you just arrive at "well, since I can't explain it, it must have been some miraculous thing I'm not made to understand".
The one admits to a lack of knowledge at the current state while still saying it's inside the laws of nature, while the other is content with the fact, that there's something not understandable at all, because it's different and outside of the natural laws.

And it's snowing in other parts of the world as well. Our busses and trams and so on claim they're unable to cope with the weather if there are three snowflakes falling. That depends on what people are used to. Anyway, I don't understand the connection neither, sorry.

[sarapuk]

First of all, I'm sorry, if this shouldn't go down in the subforum, but I'm not looking for a purely religious discussion about the DPI, rather I'm confused and hope, someone can enlighten me.

When I first joined here, I believe there was no subforum about religious theories about what happened with the dyatlovites. Maybe I'm mistaken and only forgot about it. When I came back just now, I was very confused as to what religion could have to do with everything, especially considering, that the USSR was - as far as I was told - about as atheist as they come.
I tried to read the threads in the according subforum. I tried to get a glimpse of what is supposed to be explained. I can't make head nor tail of it.

Is anyone able to explain, what religion - aside maybe from that of the Mansi, if you consider them as being a vital part of what happened - has to do with the DPI? And preferable in a short consistent summery? Thanks.

If this does not belong here or doubles or whatever, please tell me, point me in the right direction and move the thread to wherever it belongs. Thanks.

Well yes, what has religion got to do with what happened ? There doesnt appear to be anything to suggest a religious involvement in what happened.

[sarapuk]

Let me try to explain it to you. The formulation the investigators used to explain the deaths of nine people, as Yudin explained, was taken from Roman law. As we know, the Roman Empire disappeared a long time ago. Those were ancient times when people believed the earth floated on three whales, that the sun revolved around the earth, and similar things. Science at that time was very underdeveloped, for example, to explain Archimedes' principle.

So, the investigators in 1959 found themselves in a situation where they could explain it only as the work of an evil spirit. But since the term "evil spirit" was absent from the criminal code, they used the term "force majeure" from Roman law, modeled on the ancient world. Some incomprehensible force that the tourists were unable to overcome. In other words, a higher power, inaccessible to understanding.

The formulation the investigators used ! They used a simple term because what else could they say. A force of some kind was at play and that force was and still is unknown.