I can't even think of setting up a labaz here

[GlennM]

January 31, group diary

Started relatively early (around 10 am). Got back on the Mansi trail. (Up to now we are following a Mansi trail on which not so long passed a hunter with deer.)
Yesterday it seems we stumbled upon his resting stop. Deer didn't go any further. The hunter took the beaten trail by himself, we are following in his steps.
Had a surprisingly good overnight, the air is warm and dry, though it’s -18°C to -24°C. Walking is especially hard today. We can't see the trail, have to grope our way through at times. Can’t do more than 1.5-2 km (1 mile) per hour.
Trying out new ways to clear the path. The first in line drops his backpack, skis forward for five minutes, comes back for a 10-15 minute break, then catches up with the group. That’s one way to keep laying ski tracks non-stop. Hard on the second hiker though, who has to follow the new trail with full gear on his back. We gradually leave the Auspiya valley, it’s upwards all the way but goes rather smoothly. Thin birch grove replaces firs. The end of the forest is getting closer. Wind is western, warm, piercing, with speed like the jet from airplanes at takeoff. Firn, open spaces. I can't even think of setting up a labaz here. It's nearly 4. Have to start looking for a place to pitch the tent. We go south in the Auspiya valley. Seems this place has the deepest snow. Wind not strong, snow 1.2-2 m (3-4 ft) deep. We’re exhausted, but start setting up for the night. Firewood is scarce, mostly damp firs. We build the campfire on the logs, too tired to dig a fire pit. Dinner’s in the tent. Nice and warm. Can’t imagine such comfort on the ridge, with howling wind outside, hundreds of kilometers away from human settlements.
Dyatlov (last record in the diary)

The fact of the matter is that they did dig in a labaz at their Jan 31 camp. So what does this comment, " I can't imagine..." really mean? Was Igor really saying " I CAN imagine setting up a labaz, but I don't like it"  By the same token was the entry "Can’t imagine such comfort on the ridge, " saying I CAN imagine the Discomfort on the ridge?  So what?

What I am thinking is that these " can't imagine" expressions have led some to believe that the tent was not compromised on Feb 1 by the weather. They instead choose to believe nearly anything else caused them to leave the tent except a weather imduced disaster. The diary makes it clear that they were experiencing high winds and blowing snow. It stands to reason that if those conditions did not abate on Feb 1, not too much progress to Ortoten would be made. That is true. Consequently,  when a suitable spot was found which afforded a place to level the tent and had a bit of a ridge to make a rudimentary snow wall. They did so.

In that situation, imagine a katabatic wind coming off of 1079. Driving snow  swirls and piles up uphill of the tent. This could create the conditions for a localized snow slide which loosened lines, broke a pole and crushed the tent and those within.

Confusion for me at least, is when an entry in the diary actually means the opposite of what is written. This is where translation and cultural differences foul things up, 

[Teddy]

I asked Askinadzi to explain in other words what Dyatlov meant.

Yesterday he accepted to participate in a TV show that shoots in 3 days in Moscow so he might be in route. Not sure when he will answer.

I asked two other Russian members of the forum to pitch in as well.

[Ziljoe]

Glenn, I agree with you about the translation issue — the “can’t imagine” phrasing is one of those cultural things that reads backwards in English. 
And the weather context you’re describing fits the group’s behaviour on the 31st and the 1st.

What I keep thinking about is how these diary entries, and even simple administrative notes, were interpreted later by different people in different roles. 
In the Soviet system, the same protocol format was used for everything from routine oversight checks to full investigations, so the meaning often depended on context rather than the form itself.

It would actually be useful to hear from Russian speakers on this — especially those familiar with how regional duty officers handled movement‑checks and paperwork. 
They would know whether Popov’s Feb 6 note fits the pattern of a normal oversight interview rather than anything investigative.

That kind of cultural insight would help clear up a lot of the confusion around how these documents ended up in the case file in the first place.

[Teddy]

It would actually be useful to hear from Russian speakers on this — especially those familiar with how regional duty officers handled movement‑checks and paperwork. 
They would know whether Popov’s Feb 6 note fits the pattern of a normal oversight interview rather than anything investigative.

This was already answered by Russian authorities, exactly "those familiar with how regional duty officers handled movement‑checks and paperwork".
It is stated at the end of the response to the inquiry - the only answer is that this document belonged to a different case file that was merged with the Dyatlov case.
"the Prosecutor of Sverdlovsk Andrey Kuryakov in a press conference on 4 Feb 2019 in Yekaterinburg suggested that it could have come from another unrelated case, because there is no reference to Dyatlov case in the testimony."
You can not trump that. This is the answer from the Russian authorities.

[Teddy]

If Popov’s note follows the standard oversight template, then its presence in the case file may have a straightforward administrative explanation. 

This doesn't make any sense.
And since it has nothing to do with what Dyatlov wrote in his diary your post is moved here.

[Ziljoe]

Glennm, sorry for going off topic .I think you’re right ,the whole diary entry is basically a description of worsening weather and exhaustion. 
Deep snow, strong wind, exposed terrain, poor visibility… everything points to conditions that would still be dangerous on Feb 1. 
People sometimes over‑analyse the phrasing, but the overall picture is clear: the weather was rough, and if it stayed that way, it’s entirely consistent with the tent being damaged by wind and snow loading. It almost sounds like Igor was planning a camp on the ridge and it was inevitable.

[Teddy]

To me it means one of the two things considering the context of the whole entry:
1. I am so tired I don't want to think about it, or
2. The place is not suitable, either because it is hard to dig (the could have hung on trees), or hard to find on their way back.

[Senior Maldonado]

To me it means one of the two things considering the context of the whole entry:
1. I am so tired I don't want to think about it, or
2. The place is not suitable, either because it is hard to dig (the could have hung on trees), or hard to find on their way back.

'The place is not suitable' is the right answer. At the Pass the hikers faced snow crust, strong wind and no trees. The sentence "We go south in the Auspiya valley" is not a correct translation from russian. The right translations is "We descend south direction, to Auspiya valley". And in Auspiya valley they found deep and soft snow, some trees, some wind protection.

[GlennM]

The diary entry confuses me all the more. I am reading it as if the entry was written the following morning and not the same day . Then,we have an indication that on the night of the 30th, the group had a good rest. The rest of it is a prediction and anticipation of how things will go on the 31st.

 Now, knowing that the forest thins out, they still do not cache their overburden. They take it all. They go uphill in the Auspya and cross over, but retreat in face of the weather and the lack of an adequate marker for their cache ( above the tree line) so they backtrack and spend time burying their excess in the tree line.

I want to think they somehow intended to cache their supplies where the tent was actually found on 1079, but they did not because the conditions were so bad that they couldnt depend on finding it after they rounded Otorten. Therefore, they backtracked all the way back to their Jan 31 camp and stashed their goods. Then the headed out to the final camp. So in that context whatever was to be written on the morning if Feb 1 would chronicle the events of Jan 31.

It is the language in the diary that bothers me. Although there is no requirement that the group diary have military nor legal precision, it appears conversational, terse and colloquial. The result for me is that Igor's leadership and decision making ability is clouded by the entries. The high regard he was held in seems diluted by the ambivalent language and actual movements of the group. It also implies that the weather was harsh. How harsh? Russian meteorological reporr should provide evidence.

[Hunter]

Dyatlov means that in the forest, with a stove in the tent, it is warm and cozy, and it is difficult to imagine the same comfort on the pass without a stove.

------------------

Дятлов имеет ввиду, что в лесу, с печкой в палатке тепло и уютно, и трудно представить себе такой же комфорт на перевале без печки.

[Teddy]

Dyatlov means that in the forest, with a stove in the tent, it is warm and cozy, and it is difficult to imagine the same comfort on the pass without a stove.

------------------

Дятлов имеет ввиду, что в лесу, с печкой в палатке тепло и уютно, и трудно представить себе такой же комфорт на перевале без печки.

This is not what we are talking about. What does Dyatlov say about the labaz?
This sentence: "Об устройстве лабаза даже думать не приходиться."
What does he mean with "не приходиться"?

[Ziljoe]

 looks to me like Igor simply went as far as he reasonably could on the 31st. Once the forest thinned out and he found himself on windswept, crusted ground with no trees, the area was obviously unsuitable for a labaz. By that point it was around 4 p.m., they still had to make camp, and they still needed daylight to build the labaz. In those conditions, retreating to a more sheltered spot in the forest was the sensible choice.

Anyone who’s done winter hillwalking or canoe‑camping will recognise this pattern: you have a few potential spots in mind, but as daylight and energy run out you sometimes have to backtrack to the last workable location. Terrain and weather don’t always match your expectations on the map. The diary line reads exactly like that kind of practical decision.

[Hunter]

Teddy

This is not what we are talking about. What does Dyatlov say about the labaz?
This sentence: "Об устройстве лабаза даже думать не приходиться."
What does he mean with "не приходиться"?

Может, что нет пока подходящего места для лабаза. Устраивать чисто в снегу лабаз это риск. Обычно их делают либо висящими (например, в мешке), либо на помосте.

English translation:  Maybe there's no suitable place for the labaz yet. It's a risk to make a job clean in the snow. Usually they are made either hanging (for example, in a bag) or on a pole.

[Axelrod]

....

It is the language in the diary that bothers me. Although there is no requirement that the group diary have military nor legal precision, it appears conversational, terse and colloquial. The result for me is that Igor's leadership and decision making ability is clouded by the entries. The high regard he was held in seems diluted by the ambivalent language and actual movements of the group. It also implies that the weather was harsh. How harsh? Russian meteorological reporr should provide evidence.

When I was transcribing Dyatlov's younger sister's broadcast, I had trouble translating her words into a normal text.
The problem was that she used unnecessary words that could be interpreted in different ways.
Kolmogrova's sister had the same problem.
If they lived in a village, then it's clear that the text doesn't correlate well with the book text.

And there was a similar problem with Theodora's texts – the meaning is clear, but how should these phrases be pronounced?
Oleg Arkhipov sometimes uses incomprehensible words with the wrong meaning.
I cancelled the recording of Theodora's interview with Arkhipov because it requires clarification of both authors, and that's difficult.
They don't say anything valuable or unknown there.

I don't have that many texts for Igor Dyatlov, but it seems like he's not the ideal I'm trying to portray him as.

[GlennM]

What bothers me is the diary tells us that they got above the tree line. There was really was nothing that they could lift their bundle up that would make it secure.. I think they would have taken it all to Ortoten if the weather was milder, but it wasn't. They were getting beaten up by the conditions  Now, since the bears were hibernating, it was the diggers like wolves and wolverines that could destroy their goods. Igor took a calculated risk in thinking they could fast track it to Ortoten and back before their stash was scavenged. Since the weather beat them back to the Auspya on the 31st, they used the setback to bury their excess baggage and make a hard push for Ortoten against the weather. If this is true,then the way the last entry in the group diary hides it well because of the "I can't believe" worded entries. Their choices may have been direct, but the interpreting of the diary is not direct for me.

[Ziljoe]

Glenn, I’m with you on the logic of not carrying anything unnecessary toward Otorten — the cache makes complete sense for the return leg. The only part I see slightly differently is the Jan 31 turnaround point. The diary doesn’t read as if they reached the saddle itself; it sounds more like they pushed just beyond the last trees, found the ground too wind‑scoured for a labaz, and, facing the ascent ahead, decided that was the point to turn back. The phrasing about not being able to build a labaz or campsite fits that interpretation.

At that time of day they still needed to get a camp set up and prepare the cache, so turning back seems to have been a practical call rather than a full weather retreat. The first suitable forested area is exactly where they camped and where the labaz was built the next morning. After that, climbing back up lighter for a proper push toward Otorten fits the overall pattern you’re describing.

And yes — the diary comments on the weather, along with Popov’s statement, give us a good sense of the conditions they were dealing with.

[Osi]

The group members managed to travel comfortably until the final campsite on January 31st, despite their heavy backpacks, using the gentle slopes of Auspiya and Mansi trails. However, once they left Auspiya and began climbing towards the pass, things became clear that things weren't so easy. I estimate the distance from Auspiya to the rock face on the pass's ridge to be 1200 meters. Considering the 15-20 degree incline, the heavy backpacks, and the weather and snow conditions, how feasible would it be to climb that distance in a single day? I think they started climbing much further back from Auspiya, parallel to the pass, and lengthened the route. The increasing incline, the weight of the loads, the girls' struggles, and their frequent requests for breaks made it necessary to prepare a storage pit. It made no sense to use a sled on this bare slope climbing towards the pass. Upon reaching the summit of the pass, they had no idea how much further they were to go before reaching the tree line in the Lozva valley. If we consider Auspiya as one side, they had to chart a triangular route. Igor implies in his diary that setting up camp here would be foolish, that even thinking about it would be a waste of time.

[Senior Maldonado]

Upon reaching the summit of the pass, they had no idea how much further they were to go before reaching the tree line in the Lozva valley.

I doubt very much that Igor Dyatlov had ever had a plan to descend to the Lozva valley. He wanted to reach the peak of Otorten, and sooner or later the group had to leave valleys and forests and climb to the mountains. It looks that the climb was attempted on Jan 31st already, and the group planned to make a labaz on the Pass or even beyond it, on the 1079 slope. But bad weather conditions, snow crust, and lack of trees prevented them to set up the labaz there. Next day they repeated attempt to climb, and that time it was successful, they managed to go beyond the Pass and to advance towards Otorten a little.

In other words, the group never had intention to descend to the Lozva valley. They wanted to gain height at 1079 and proceed to Otorten without wasting time on descents.

[Osi]

Assuming the Auspiya Canyon is 1000/1200 meters from its closest point to the pass, if they had set up their camp there on January 30th, it would have taken them half a day to cross the pass with all their supplies. If they needed to set up a depot, they would have done so in the Lozva Valley. The January 30th camp was set up much further down the Auspiya. Therefore, instead of following the Auspiya and reaching the pass at its narrowest point, they left the river early and began to ascend. They started climbing parallel to the Auspiya valley, but at a 15-degree angle. This means the distance to the pass is 3 or 4 km. Apparently, they had walked to a point where they gave up. Dyatlov stopped there and wrote these lines. Assuming the pass is at 12 o'clock, instead of descending 600 meters at 6 o'clock to set up camp and a depot, they preferred to go to the southern end of the Auspiya, at 9 o'clock. It was the foothills of Mount Kholat. Perhaps there was a denser forest there. It had the characteristic of being a marker to avoid losing the depot. This decision led to two inevitable consequences.
There was no longer a need to cross the pass and camp in Lozva. The route would be from the foothills of Kholat to Otorten.

[GlennM]

Ziljoe, Senior and Osi. Every one of you are clear and understandable. If you wrote the diary, I would have a clear picture of the " big picture" of the hike. The actual diary seems more focused on the small picture of personal experience, technique and weather.  If Igor had a map in hand, he would have the " big picture" that we do not get from the diary.

The standard telling of this story is that the team actually missed their turn in the forest and instead went straight up and to the high ground, crossed over to the Lozva and elected to follow the ridge route to Ortoten. There they got scoured by the conditions.
.
This telling of the story makes me think Igor had no " big picture" map. Instead, he was leading by intuition. Was the Mansi trail supposed to lead them all the way? The group may not technically have gotten lost, but they were certainly making it up as they went along. Could this be an explanation for the jolly tone of the diary? 

[Ziljoe]

I think the diary wording helps narrow down the Jan 31 location quite a bit. The entry doesn’t read as if they reached the saddle or the pass itself. It sounds more like they climbed just beyond the last trees, found the ground too wind‑scoured and uneven for a labaz, and decided that was the point to turn back. The phrasing about not being able to build a labaz or campsite fits that kind of exposed shoulder rather than the pass proper.

At that time of day they still needed to get a camp set up and prepare the cache, so returning to the first suitable forested area makes sense. That’s exactly where the labaz was built the next morning. After that, climbing back up lighter for a proper push toward Otorten fits the overall pattern in the diaries and the terrain.

Ironically, the tops of the the slopes would have been where the sled could have been used , hard snow and icy rocks . One was used to drag the bodies back to boot rock. 

To build the labaz they need a deep snow pit which Igor references at 1.2 meters deep ,or tree's if going to be a longer time away, skis are recommended as markers . This is all in hiking manuals, so i suppose they are also considering the return route , what would be the most convenient place for the labaz.

So we have three nominations where to make the labaz,
1)where it was found ,
2)somewhere at or around the tent on the slope
3) in the cedar area

For me , 1 is the most logical for the return leg. I can't see the advantage for the other 2 locations . Igor went as far forward as he could to build a campsite and labaz on the 31st . He had no tree's or deep snow for a labaz , there was no point in carrying the products further, it was just to return a few hundred meters to find an area for a labaz.

Sorry Glenn, your last message came in as i was typing. I think the Mansi trail is just tracks through the woods , they were not direct paths to the hikers goal so they were used when they helped and might not have always been in the corect direction . I would assume that with all of their experience, they would know they are in the correct valleys , the only confusion would be the maze of forest paths. Everything reads like every other hiking diary? 

[GlennM]

Ziljoe, I am in total agreement with your rationale for the labaz. It certainly gives meaning to the " I can't imagine" entries in the group,diary. If the weather were kinder, I believe they would still not cache materials on the ridge, if for no other reason than uncertain depths of snow.

Those who advocate for the cache or tent being spoofed should reconsider in light of this clarification along with a host of other developments in the forum. Very much like peeling an onion isn't it?

[sarapuk]

January 31, group diary

Started relatively early (around 10 am). Got back on the Mansi trail. (Up to now we are following a Mansi trail on which not so long passed a hunter with deer.)
Yesterday it seems we stumbled upon his resting stop. Deer didn't go any further. The hunter took the beaten trail by himself, we are following in his steps.
Had a surprisingly good overnight, the air is warm and dry, though it’s -18°C to -24°C. Walking is especially hard today. We can't see the trail, have to grope our way through at times. Can’t do more than 1.5-2 km (1 mile) per hour.
Trying out new ways to clear the path. The first in line drops his backpack, skis forward for five minutes, comes back for a 10-15 minute break, then catches up with the group. That’s one way to keep laying ski tracks non-stop. Hard on the second hiker though, who has to follow the new trail with full gear on his back. We gradually leave the Auspiya valley, it’s upwards all the way but goes rather smoothly. Thin birch grove replaces firs. The end of the forest is getting closer. Wind is western, warm, piercing, with speed like the jet from airplanes at takeoff. Firn, open spaces. I can't even think of setting up a labaz here. It's nearly 4. Have to start looking for a place to pitch the tent. We go south in the Auspiya valley. Seems this place has the deepest snow. Wind not strong, snow 1.2-2 m (3-4 ft) deep. We’re exhausted, but start setting up for the night. Firewood is scarce, mostly damp firs. We build the campfire on the logs, too tired to dig a fire pit. Dinner’s in the tent. Nice and warm. Can’t imagine such comfort on the ridge, with howling wind outside, hundreds of kilometers away from human settlements.
Dyatlov (last record in the diary)

The fact of the matter is that they did dig in a labaz at their Jan 31 camp. So what does this comment, " I can't imagine..." really mean? Was Igor really saying " I CAN imagine setting up a labaz, but I don't like it"  By the same token was the entry "Can’t imagine such comfort on the ridge, " saying I CAN imagine the Discomfort on the ridge?  So what?

What I am thinking is that these " can't imagine" expressions have led some to believe that the tent was not compromised on Feb 1 by the weather. They instead choose to believe nearly anything else caused them to leave the tent except a weather imduced disaster. The diary makes it clear that they were experiencing high winds and blowing snow. It stands to reason that if those conditions did not abate on Feb 1, not too much progress to Ortoten would be made. That is true. Consequently,  when a suitable spot was found which afforded a place to level the tent and had a bit of a ridge to make a rudimentary snow wall. They did so.

In that situation, imagine a katabatic wind coming off of 1079. Driving snow  swirls and piles up uphill of the tent. This could create the conditions for a localized snow slide which loosened lines, broke a pole and crushed the tent and those within.

Confusion for me at least, is when an entry in the diary actually means the opposite of what is written. This is where translation and cultural differences foul things up,

To say you can't imagine something is not really a big deal. The weather was bad. How bad we don't know because we weren't there. But they would know that the weather can be bad at that time of year in that area.

[GlennM]

I can't imagine your saying I can't imagine isn't a big deal. Can you imagine if the diary was written in a direct way? Imagine that! The result would be that those who imagine the cache actually being located where the tent was found and subsequently removed to a hole in the woods would have to reimagine their their defense of conspiratorial activity to obfuscate the deaths of nine Soviets.

I appreciate the forum working with me on the interpretation of colloquial expressions. I do not know it all, but value those who know more than I. I welcome,your thoughful insight.

[Ziljoe]

January 31, group diary

Started relatively early (around 10 am). Got back on the Mansi trail. (Up to now we are following a Mansi trail on which not so long passed a hunter with deer.)
Yesterday it seems we stumbled upon his resting stop. Deer didn't go any further. The hunter took the beaten trail by himself, we are following in his steps.
Had a surprisingly good overnight, the air is warm and dry, though it’s -18°C to -24°C. Walking is especially hard today. We can't see the trail, have to grope our way through at times. Can’t do more than 1.5-2 km (1 mile) per hour.
Trying out new ways to clear the path. The first in line drops his backpack, skis forward for five minutes, comes back for a 10-15 minute break, then catches up with the group. That’s one way to keep laying ski tracks non-stop. Hard on the second hiker though, who has to follow the new trail with full gear on his back. We gradually leave the Auspiya valley, it’s upwards all the way but goes rather smoothly. Thin birch grove replaces firs. The end of the forest is getting closer. Wind is western, warm, piercing, with speed like the jet from airplanes at takeoff. Firn, open spaces. I can't even think of setting up a labaz here. It's nearly 4. Have to start looking for a place to pitch the tent. We go south in the Auspiya valley. Seems this place has the deepest snow. Wind not strong, snow 1.2-2 m (3-4 ft) deep. We’re exhausted, but start setting up for the night. Firewood is scarce, mostly damp firs. We build the campfire on the logs, too tired to dig a fire pit. Dinner’s in the tent. Nice and warm. Can’t imagine such comfort on the ridge, with howling wind outside, hundreds of kilometers away from human settlements.
Dyatlov (last record in the diary)

The fact of the matter is that they did dig in a labaz at their Jan 31 camp. So what does this comment, " I can't imagine..." really mean? Was Igor really saying " I CAN imagine setting up a labaz, but I don't like it"  By the same token was the entry "Can’t imagine such comfort on the ridge, " saying I CAN imagine the Discomfort on the ridge?  So what?

What I am thinking is that these " can't imagine" expressions have led some to believe that the tent was not compromised on Feb 1 by the weather. They instead choose to believe nearly anything else caused them to leave the tent except a weather imduced disaster. The diary makes it clear that they were experiencing high winds and blowing snow. It stands to reason that if those conditions did not abate on Feb 1, not too much progress to Ortoten would be made. That is true. Consequently,  when a suitable spot was found which afforded a place to level the tent and had a bit of a ridge to make a rudimentary snow wall. They did so.

In that situation, imagine a katabatic wind coming off of 1079. Driving snow  swirls and piles up uphill of the tent. This could create the conditions for a localized snow slide which loosened lines, broke a pole and crushed the tent and those within.

Confusion for me at least, is when an entry in the diary actually means the opposite of what is written. This is where translation and cultural differences foul things up,

To say you can't imagine something is not really a big deal. The weather was bad. How bad we don't know because we weren't there. But they would know that the weather can be bad at that time of year in that area.

Sarapuk, 
Can you clarify what specific point you’re making in relation to the diary entry or the Feb 1 conditions? 
We all know the weather can be bad — I’m just trying to see how your comment connects. 
Unless you’re suggesting the aliens’ satnav hadn’t been updated.?

[GlennM]

The diary leads me to speculate that the labaz was laid on Feb 1st. Now, if they also got up late too, and then battled windy weather, it explains why they did not get far. It is clear that they should have made more progress to Ortoten than they did.

The diary for Feb 1 would have made that clear.