question about the missing tongue (and "hello" from germany) :D

[Mash]

Hello Dyatlovpass.com!

Your page is great. You've gathered so much information, imagery, and especially the logs and reports (which are a valuable source). I know that means a lot of work. You`ve my full respect and a big "thank you"! 

I`m from germany and apologize myself  for the bad (school-)english.

I`ve stumbled upon something several times and have a question about this:

In the autopsy report of Dubinina (page 355 at the very bottom) is wtitten: Язык в полости рта отсутствует = The tongue in the oral cavity is missing!

On page 356 (forensic report Dubinina) also quite far below is written: "Диафрагма рта и языка отсутствует", translated into english -> The diaphragm of the mouth and tongue is absent. I think "diaphragm" can alternatively mean muscle (is it right?)? In german, the word "diaphragm" makes less sense in terms of the tongue.

Also:
"В желудке содержалось до 100 см.3 слизистой массы темнокрасноватого цвета."
The stomach contains up to 100 cm3 of dark brown mucosal mass (page 356 bottom).

https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-355-357?rbid=17743

I`ve often read that the tongue was cut out / torn alive. It`s also based on the blood found in the stomach. But I can`t read anything about it in the report of Vozrozhdenny.

I also found it on your site:

https://dyatlovpass.com/page.php?language_id=1&id=12786 (in the table below the maps): Dubinina -> "tongue removed while she was still alive"

The topic "tongue" led to heated discussions in a german forum ( :D ).

Now my question: How do you get on "tongue removed while she was still alive"? Is there any other source besides the autopsy report? Or another statement from a forensic scientist? How does this controversy come?

Thank you for your answer and a warm regards from germany! 

[Loose}{Cannon]

From the autopsy

The diaphragm of the mouth and tongue is absent.

All it says...... nothing about being torn out etc.  The diaphragm is referring to the membrane at the back of the throat....

The tongue in the oral cavity is absent. The oral mucosa are of grayish green color.

Again, just tates the tongue is missing.  The oral mucosa basically refers to the entire lining of the oral cavity..... its was green or 'aka' decomposed. 

Welcome aboard!

[CalzagheChick]

But in the infographic chart way down on the home DPI page that lists the victims, it does state for Lyudmila "tongue removed while still alive."

That's actually speculation, not fact and you know that LC. I think the infographic needs to be changed/updated to be as close to the available evidence as possible and we just can't conclude no matter what the contents of the stomach were that her tongue was removed while alive.

You and I know that the bloody mass in her stomach cavity is most likely from the internal injuries she sustained (punctured heart is my guess) rather than the tongue.

By the way, Welcome to the forum! We are so glad you're here to bring these things up!!!

Teddy will have to deal with the chart. I don't know its origins.

[Mash]

at CalzagheChick ... it`s exactly what I mean 

By the way, Welcome to the forum! We are so glad you're here to bring these things up!!!

Welcome aboard!

Thank you very much!

[Teddy]

The reference table is my creation. The "tongue removed while she was still alive" is because of
https://dyatlovpass.com/death#Dubinina
"Dubinina was laying on a kind of a natural ledge with water rolling over it. Her mouth was open. There are claims that the tongue was ripped, or eaten, or whatnot. The medical records simply that "the tongue is missing". Vozrozhdenny describes missing hypoglossal muscle as well as muscles of the floor of the mouth.
It looks weird especially given the fact previous bodies had more detailed autopsies. There is no credible explanation for this vague statement. Although it is mentioned that the stomach contained about 100 g of coagulated blood. It is used by some as an indication that the heart was beating and the blood was flowing when tongue was removed from a mouth."

This site is started in 2015. The reference table is one of the first things I created for my own sanity. I was putting down everything I came across and I am constantly revisiting and adding stuff on the site. I would remove it if it is untrue. If it is speculation or controversial, until I find some reasons to be changed stays as it is. There is so much work and information that needs to put in that if I go and justify every fact I publish I will have to gnaw on my veins of despair. You realize that this case is a mess, and nobody can say if Lyuda was alive or dead when the tongue went missing. I publish something, then make a reference link to the Controversy page. I currently have close to 50 facts that I want to publish. I am not the usual social media dump. If I come across an interesting fact I make a full article, most of the time I publish the source in Russian as well. I am not just throwing links and images. The forum is very good place to gather information. I am very grateful to everybody in the forum and when a good discussion spins off I summarize and make an article. There are still all the Case files to be translated, there is volume 2, there are notebooks of searchers nobody has seen before, and we are awaiting a second DNA on Zolotaryov in a week, and I have 7-8 articles from Komsomolskaya Pravda that in a perfect world I will find time to translate and publish.

Back to Lyuda's tongue - can you definitely prove she was not alive?

[Teddy]

Mash, you seem very good at gathering resources. You tell me what to publish as a counterargument for the statement that the tongue was ripped, cut whatever alive.
I prefer to publish two controversial versions, because if I stick to the known facts it will be only that they are dead.
With the recent DNA even this is not a fact anymore.

Juts a note - the site doesn't represent in any way what do I believe in. For example I don't believe her tongue was cut out, but I don't have time to argue about it. I am trying very hard to hoard information.

Sorry if I sound a little in a haste but that is because I am a little in a haste. I try to do one thing at least every day. This is today's article, it can be found on the homepage of dyatlovpass.com as well.
Chivruay tragedy 1973

[Loose}{Cannon]

From the official autopsy report.

The stomach contains up to 100 cm3 of dark brown mucosal mass

Thats it!     Absolutely nothing about blood in the stomach.     



The blood reference is in relation to internal hemorrhaging.

The position of the internal organs is regular, the pleural cavities contain up to one and a half liters of liquid dark blood.

 

[Teddy]

Ok, I will move the ripping of the tongue in the Controversial page as a myth. Thanks for the correction, Mash!

[Loose}{Cannon]

Ok, I will move the ripping of the tongue in the Controversial page as a myth. Thanks for the correction, Mash!

Hey, wait!     Where is my cookie?       

From the official autopsy report.

The stomach contains up to 100 cm3 of dark brown mucosal mass

Thats it!     Absolutely nothing about blood in the stomach.     



The blood reference is in relation to internal hemorrhaging.

The position of the internal organs is regular, the pleural cavities contain up to one and a half liters of liquid dark blood.

 

[Teddy]

Cookies for everyone!
I will post here when I make the change.
Over and out for the day.

[Loose}{Cannon]

Also from the autopsy report.     

Damage to the soft tissue of the head and ‘bath skin’ wrinkling to the extremities are the post-mortem changes (rot and decay) of Dubinina’s body, which was underwater before it was found.

 

Pretty sure the head encompasses everything within said head.   

 


 

[Teddy]

What?

[Loose}{Cannon]

Dr. S aparently read ALL the autopsy reports as well.   


http://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=187.0

The situation regarding the eyes, perhaps tongue, etc could certainly be postmortem predation.  I would likely give the original pathologist benefit of the doubt on their interpretation.

[Loose}{Cannon]

What?

The head includes everything within the head.   

THREE cookies in one day!!!!   

[Teddy]

Homepage reference table "tongue removed while still alive" → "tongue was missing".

[CalzagheChick]

Also from the autopsy report.     

Damage to the soft tissue of the head and ‘bath skin’ wrinkling to the extremities are the post-mortem changes (rot and decay) of Dubinina’s body, which was underwater before it was found.

 

Pretty sure the head encompasses everything within said head.   

 


 

I'm rather embarrassed to say that I completely overlooked that SINGULAR statement which is probably the single most important statement in regards to the controversy of the missing tongue.

Here's my problem: Lyudmila's body wasn't submerged underwater. She was upright on her knees against a large boulder that happened to have melting snow and ice trickling down from it.

His autopsy on the Rav 4 is CRAP!!!!! Like I totally envision this conversation happening:

Lev (after his trip to Moscow) or Kolataev: "You see what a mess this whole thing has been, right Vozrozhdenny? I double dog dare you to make a bigger **** show of the available evidence IF you possibly can--I know it'll be hard, maybe even impossible, to get it worse than it already is...but I've got my orders and that's the challenge I'm presenting to you. Take it or leave it, dawg."

Vozrozhdenny: "Say no more, fam."

[Loose}{Cannon]

 

[BottledBrunette]

Whenever I read about Lyuda's tongue either being pulled out, or it came out due to decomposition, or that it was eaten out, it confuses me.  They froze to death. She was laying on her front side, her face looked like it was flat against the ground.  So, assuming an animal ate it, I may be dense, but, HOW?  Her mouth would be frozen shut and she's laying face down.  Kind of hard to get at the eyes and tongue on a stiff, frozen solid body that is also buried under who knows how many inches or feet of snow.  From the pictures I've seen, it looked like they were buried under like ten feet of snow and that somehow, the water underneath their bodies was more than a babbling brook.  Looked like a torrent, but, that's just my way of looking at the pictures.  I'm not sure where the water was going underneath the snow, but, if her tongue was taken out with the torrent of water, wouldn't her tongue be found close by?  Maybe, maybe not.  I guess it depends on how far the water traveled.  Was her tongue completely gone?  I'm just wondering if, someone mentioned that the last four fell off the embankment to their deaths where they ended up in the ravine, perhaps, when she fell and came to a crashing halt, she bit her tongue off.  Could that be a possibility? But, other than her tongue wasn't there, I don't know if it was ALL the way out or just half way cut off.  This whole thing confuses and confounds me.  And thanks to the government sponsored autopsies where it was ordered to cover up any and all stuff, weird or not, it has screwed up any hope of the mysterious deaths being solved with today's advances in autopsies, DNA evidence and everything else used to find out what caused deaths. 

[sarapuk]

Whenever I read about Lyuda's tongue either being pulled out, or it came out due to decomposition, or that it was eaten out, it confuses me.  They froze to death. She was laying on her front side, her face looked like it was flat against the ground.  So, assuming an animal ate it, I may be dense, but, HOW?  Her mouth would be frozen shut and she's laying face down.  Kind of hard to get at the eyes and tongue on a stiff, frozen solid body that is also buried under who knows how many inches or feet of snow.  From the pictures I've seen, it looked like they were buried under like ten feet of snow and that somehow, the water underneath their bodies was more than a babbling brook.  Looked like a torrent, but, that's just my way of looking at the pictures.  I'm not sure where the water was going underneath the snow, but, if her tongue was taken out with the torrent of water, wouldn't her tongue be found close by?  Maybe, maybe not.  I guess it depends on how far the water traveled.  Was her tongue completely gone?  I'm just wondering if, someone mentioned that the last four fell off the embankment to their deaths where they ended up in the ravine, perhaps, when she fell and came to a crashing halt, she bit her tongue off.  Could that be a possibility? But, other than her tongue wasn't there, I don't know if it was ALL the way out or just half way cut off.  This whole thing confuses and confounds me.  And thanks to the government sponsored autopsies where it was ordered to cover up any and all stuff, weird or not, it has screwed up any hope of the mysterious deaths being solved with today's advances in autopsies, DNA evidence and everything else used to find out what caused deaths.

Read as many of the Posts on this Forum that you can. Its becoming a lot of reading. And there is no proof that the Russian Government ordered a cover up.

[jarrfan]

I have to say that the time of the incident 1959 and the global and local spy/communism agenda going on in Russia, this aspect of life has to be considered into this mystery. Most people were questionable, even if they did not know it. There is also the aspect of these young people planning to flee the country and the government had to make sure that did not happen since if they were successful, more would follow down that path.

The government invested in these individuals and expected them to promote Russian communism and science, there is no way they would have let them leave the country if they thought they would take their knowledge with them to support capitalist countries.

It was only 6 years since Stalin was dead and much of the government was still run  by his rules and the people he put in position, i.e., Kruschev. The atomic bomb and the fight for orbiting the planet were on the agenda and Russia had to be first.

Many people were unhappy with their lot in life given to them by this government and the hateful attitude of the accommodations and the ability to heat water shows their intense dislike of a system that governed them and did not provide what they needed for a decent future.

If even 1 or 2 of the members were thought to be fleeing and had contacts in Ortenon that were exposed, the whole entire group would be exterminated. That is my thoughts about it. Whether they ordered them out of the tent, interrogated some at the cedar trees and had them dig the den thinking they would be able to live and the perpetrators were found out, the last 4 were killed at the ravine. I can see no way they could have travelled even a few feet let alone 400 feet to the den and dig it.

The question is still who did it.

[sarapuk]

I have to say that the time of the incident 1959 and the global and local spy/communism agenda going on in Russia, this aspect of life has to be considered into this mystery. Most people were questionable, even if they did not know it. There is also the aspect of these young people planning to flee the country and the government had to make sure that did not happen since if they were successful, more would follow down that path.

The government invested in these individuals and expected them to promote Russian communism and science, there is no way they would have let them leave the country if they thought they would take their knowledge with them to support capitalist countries.

It was only 6 years since Stalin was dead and much of the government was still run  by his rules and the people he put in position, i.e., Kruschev. The atomic bomb and the fight for orbiting the planet were on the agenda and Russia had to be first.

Many people were unhappy with their lot in life given to them by this government and the hateful attitude of the accommodations and the ability to heat water shows their intense dislike of a system that governed them and did not provide what they needed for a decent future.

If even 1 or 2 of the members were thought to be fleeing and had contacts in Ortenon that were exposed, the whole entire group would be exterminated. That is my thoughts about it. Whether they ordered them out of the tent, interrogated some at the cedar trees and had them dig the den thinking they would be able to live and the perpetrators were found out, the last 4 were killed at the ravine. I can see no way they could have travelled even a few feet let alone 400 feet to the den and dig it.

The question is still who did it.

There is no Evidence in the backgrounds to the Dyatlov Group to suggest that they all went on a mission to escape from the USSR. The question may be Who or What killed them all ! ?

[jarrfan]

Perhaps it was only two of them that planned not to return, maybe more, and the rest were clueless until the gestapo showed up.

The fact that the hikers went arm in arm like a wall down to the den area says it was not a supernatural force but a human force making them stay together whether government or not.

Whatever it was, the ravine 4 could never have even crawled that far if their injuries had already been sustained...

[RidgeWatcher]

A late addition:

The 100cm3 of mucosal tissue found in Dubinina's stomach was most likely what the coroner referred to ask her oral diaphragm tissue but not her tongue. The tongue is a tough muscle, if she had swallowed her tongue it would have been recognizable to the coroner. Secondary to her flail chest she had a ruptured atrium most likely caused by a fractured rib, she was bleeding out, her gastric contents wouldn't have time to break down her tongue within her stomach. She was young, active and healthy, tough muscular tissue would need at least 3-4 hours to break down in the stomach.

Jarrfan is correct when saying that you are not going to move on your own with a flail chest, especially as Dubinina had a ruptured atrium, I believe the right atrium(?). I doubt she was conscious. The RAV4 could have been moved by water but the flow that I see in the May 1959 photos hardly looks like enough water flow to move a shoe, not alone a water logged body/bodies.

The "bath skin" or maceration destroyed tissue on a cellular level which in turn caused massive skin and outer body destruction on Dubinina.

It is such a coincidence that the Dyatlov member who was known to be the most outspoken, had used her tongue harshly in Vizhay, was found to be the body with the worst injuries and the only missing tongue.

[Per Inge Oestmoen]

There is no Evidence in the backgrounds to the Dyatlov Group to suggest that they all went on a mission to escape from the USSR. The question may be Who or What killed them all ! ?

Fully agree.

There is no reason whatsoever that the nine students were anything else than loyal Soviet citizens.

- However, that would not help them if they were at the wrong place at the wrong time.

[Dona]

The situation regarding the eyes, perhaps tongue, etc could certainly be postmortem predation.  I would likely give the original pathologist benefit of the doubt on their interpretation.

They eyes of both her and Simon popped out on their own with the crushing chest injuries..

[sarapuk]

The situation regarding the eyes, perhaps tongue, etc could certainly be postmortem predation.  I would likely give the original pathologist benefit of the doubt on their interpretation.

They eyes of both her and Simon popped out on their own with the crushing chest injuries..

Doesnt explain the missing Tongue or Flesh parts that looked like they had been surgically removed.