Soviet military

[sarapuk]

Hi and thanks for the criticsl thought. I too have been buzzed by a jet and it did not completly unhinge me either. However, I wasn't on a snowy hillside, and the jet passed once and was gone.  If the photo of the glowing orb was a flare, this might suggest an intention to return for practice putposes. Vietnam was heating up and Russia supplied the North with aircraft.

The hikers left quickly because they could not talk their way out of an iminant threat of destruction. What else would make a group of sane college educated experienced trekkers say as a group, "We have to go...now!"? Bombardment, snowslide, uncertainty of others intentions is compelling to me. Looked at from another perspective. why would it be foolish to remain in camp and wait it out? Answer, we can't be seen and maybe we are in the wrong place.

There seems to be lots of possible reasons. E.g
Forced out
Infrasound
Bomb
Poisonous gas
Etc

The more you look at the details the more you uncover

As for the flares (which were commonly used to mark air strike targets or landing sites for paratroopers during WWII), it depends on the specific setup and people. That means I would not be scared as I have always lived near the airport I never experienced war as such. On the other hand, it is fully understandable if a dropped flare causes panic to people with experience in war zone (just like Semyon) or anybody familiar with bomb testing procedure (Kolevatov). War trauma can trigger much worse and violent reactions when "experienced" again, let alone the attempt to flee and find shelter wherever possible.

As for the time frame, 1959 is exactly in the middle of a process of introduction of MiG21 aircraft and Vympel R13 Air to Air self navigated missile (copycat of US-made Sidewinder, indroduced in 1956, Soviet version in 1961). The flares are ofter used as a countermeasure and would be used during a training (probably with disarmed missiles) because they lure away the infrared sensors of a missile from a target aircraft. Could hva ebeen dropped somewhere by accident.

I would label this theory "plausible". Above mentioned definitely happened somewhere in the USSR in 1959 and around that time. We cannout prove it happened at EXCACT time or place without supporting documentation.

Forced out - plausible, by whom? (no outside party - Semyon or Thibaux are my favourite suspects because of the clothes and shoes they were wearing unlike the rest of the group, outside party - miltary/paratroopers?) motive?

Infrasound - seems inconsistent with the evidence and unlikely to trigger the death of 9 people...but might be interesting to study further

Bomb - no traces of that in the area, bomb threat (real or not) still plausible, with or without flares, but Ivanov mentioned lights in the sky and burned tree tops that would support use of flares, maybe and aerial explosion? night bombing training?

Poisonous gas - plausible, source unknown - chemical weapons or natural source? would be interesting what kind of substances could have been used in 1959 and how would they affect the victims

The Post is about THE SOVIET MILITARY.  And its one of the least plausible theories that the Military were involved.

[gypsy]

So you are suggesting that the USSR used the area for practice bombing runs  !  ?  And do you not think that the Educational Establishment that assisted the Dyatlov Group would not be aware of such MILITARY TESTING AREAS  !  ?

Are we so sure that if there was EVER a military/air force training, the high command would send a telegram to every comrade at schools, local Komsomol etc. to let them know? These tests were classified top secret in the USSR. Are so sure that even if it was known to local authorities, everything went according to plan? There was no GPS and no AGM Hellfire missiles with pinpoint navigation at that time. Navigation technology-wise, 1959 is not so far from 1945 when whole USAF squadron bombed Prague instead of Dresden because of an error in navigation...

Involvement of military/air force in the area can be confirmed or dismissed by the authorities if they wished to do that. There must be a record of every single excercise in the archives. Until that information is declassified, the theory is plausible (but nowhere near confirmed).

[Star man]

Hello,

I don't believe the hikers were permitted to go to a bombing range. I do believe that if the Soviet armed forces wished to train flyers in a barren low mountainous area they would do it. I believe that the shock produced by a flight of low Jets and the uncertainty of their intention would be motivation enough for the hikers to seek relative safety in the trees. They can not wave the Jets off, only vacate the area. Given the distance from camp to trees,  the threat of destruction was real. Too, if human error got the hikers off track and put them on the side of a barren hill for the night, could a small navigational error out a Soviet MIG on the wrong side of a mountain top?  This tragedy would not have happened if the hikers camped in the trees. Trees were safety.  Please keep the discussion going. I value your thoughts.

Good enough point. I remember when I used to go fishing in England near the Welsh Borders and often would be surprised at the appearance and sound of a LOW FLYING FIGHTER JET of the RAF.  Sometimes we would stop fishing and watch the aerial antics. Never once was I concerned though. I think it would have had to have been something other than a low flying plane to cause the Dyatlov Group to abandon their safety refuge.

Agreed. I have often been buzzed by very low flying aircraft and although it can startle you it doesn’t lead to panic.  Unless of course they had already started to drop ordinance.

No evidence of ordinance being dropped was found by the search parties.

I don't think they were looking very hard TBH.

[Star man]

So you are suggesting that the USSR used the area for practice bombing runs  !  ?  And do you not think that the Educational Establishment that assisted the Dyatlov Group would not be aware of such MILITARY TESTING AREAS  !  ?

Are we so sure that if there was EVER a military/air force training, the high command would send a telegram to every comrade at schools, local Komsomol etc. to let them know? These tests were classified top secret in the USSR. Are so sure that even if it was known to local authorities, everything went according to plan? There was no GPS and no AGM Hellfire missiles with pinpoint navigation at that time. Navigation technology-wise, 1959 is not so far from 1945 when whole USAF squadron bombed Prague instead of Dresden because of an error in navigation...

Involvement of military/air force in the area can be confirmed or dismissed by the authorities if they wished to do that. There must be a record of every single excercise in the archives. Until that information is declassified, the theory is plausible (but nowhere near confirmed).

You are right.  There is no way that the authorities had the level of control required to ensure that every department and organisation knew everything that was going on in all the other departments.  Especially when it came to testing new technologies.  We can't even achieve that level of control today with all of our advances in IT.

[GlennM]

Hi again,

Personally, I think that the jet(s) would not have to fire a shot. All that is necessary is to induce a ground vibration so strong that the possibility of avalanche seems iminant. It would be foolish for the party to stay in the tent and wait and see what will happen next. It would be just as pointless for one person to poke their head out of the tent and look around. The only thing that matters is that they all came to the singular conclusion that staying in the tent was not worth dying for. Even taking time to put on boots is chancy since a snow slide could bury the tent before they could dress. They go to the trees because a snow slide would go as far, should it happen. They continue all the way down the slope because a snow slide could happen at any time. Only a threat from the air would be totally out of their control and prompt such extreme behaviour.

when do you readers believe they first asked ,"What were we thinking?"

[sarapuk]

So you are suggesting that the USSR used the area for practice bombing runs  !  ?  And do you not think that the Educational Establishment that assisted the Dyatlov Group would not be aware of such MILITARY TESTING AREAS  !  ?

Are we so sure that if there was EVER a military/air force training, the high command would send a telegram to every comrade at schools, local Komsomol etc. to let them know? These tests were classified top secret in the USSR. Are so sure that even if it was known to local authorities, everything went according to plan? There was no GPS and no AGM Hellfire missiles with pinpoint navigation at that time. Navigation technology-wise, 1959 is not so far from 1945 when whole USAF squadron bombed Prague instead of Dresden because of an error in navigation...

Involvement of military/air force in the area can be confirmed or dismissed by the authorities if they wished to do that. There must be a record of every single excercise in the archives. Until that information is declassified, the theory is plausible (but nowhere near confirmed).

Exactly, there was no pin point accuracy of bombs or missiles in those days, all the more reason to have TESTS carried out in specific areas where such expeditions as the Dyatlov Group would not venture. The MANSI being the local tribe have not mentioned anything that looks like Military Aircraft or Missiles being tested in the area in question.  They would know wouldnt they  !  ? 

[sarapuk]

Hello,

I don't believe the hikers were permitted to go to a bombing range. I do believe that if the Soviet armed forces wished to train flyers in a barren low mountainous area they would do it. I believe that the shock produced by a flight of low Jets and the uncertainty of their intention would be motivation enough for the hikers to seek relative safety in the trees. They can not wave the Jets off, only vacate the area. Given the distance from camp to trees,  the threat of destruction was real. Too, if human error got the hikers off track and put them on the side of a barren hill for the night, could a small navigational error out a Soviet MIG on the wrong side of a mountain top?  This tragedy would not have happened if the hikers camped in the trees. Trees were safety.  Please keep the discussion going. I value your thoughts.

Good enough point. I remember when I used to go fishing in England near the Welsh Borders and often would be surprised at the appearance and sound of a LOW FLYING FIGHTER JET of the RAF.  Sometimes we would stop fishing and watch the aerial antics. Never once was I concerned though. I think it would have had to have been something other than a low flying plane to cause the Dyatlov Group to abandon their safety refuge.

Agreed. I have often been buzzed by very low flying aircraft and although it can startle you it doesn’t lead to panic.  Unless of course they had already started to drop ordinance.

No evidence of ordinance being dropped was found by the search parties.

I don't think they were looking very hard TBH.

The search parties were all over the area.  It wouldnt have taken much effort to find something if such Military activities had been taking place.

[sarapuk]

So you are suggesting that the USSR used the area for practice bombing runs  !  ?  And do you not think that the Educational Establishment that assisted the Dyatlov Group would not be aware of such MILITARY TESTING AREAS  !  ?

Are we so sure that if there was EVER a military/air force training, the high command would send a telegram to every comrade at schools, local Komsomol etc. to let them know? These tests were classified top secret in the USSR. Are so sure that even if it was known to local authorities, everything went according to plan? There was no GPS and no AGM Hellfire missiles with pinpoint navigation at that time. Navigation technology-wise, 1959 is not so far from 1945 when whole USAF squadron bombed Prague instead of Dresden because of an error in navigation...

Involvement of military/air force in the area can be confirmed or dismissed by the authorities if they wished to do that. There must be a record of every single excercise in the archives. Until that information is declassified, the theory is plausible (but nowhere near confirmed).

You are right.  There is no way that the authorities had the level of control required to ensure that every department and organisation knew everything that was going on in all the other departments.  Especially when it came to testing new technologies.  We can't even achieve that level of control today with all of our advances in IT.

The Ural Polytechnic Institute which is called today Ural State Technical University (USTU) is the biggest technical institution of higher education in Russia, with a prestigious history going back to 1920.  It trained some of the best scientists in the USSR and now RUSSIA.  What does this tell us  !  ?  It tells us you are wrong in your deduction re the Authorities.

[sarapuk]

Hi again,

Personally, I think that the jet(s) would not have to fire a shot. All that is necessary is to induce a ground vibration so strong that the possibility of avalanche seems iminant. It would be foolish for the party to stay in the tent and wait and see what will happen next. It would be just as pointless for one person to poke their head out of the tent and look around. The only thing that matters is that they all came to the singular conclusion that staying in the tent was not worth dying for. Even taking time to put on boots is chancy since a snow slide could bury the tent before they could dress. They go to the trees because a snow slide would go as far, should it happen. They continue all the way down the slope because a snow slide could happen at any time. Only a threat from the air would be totally out of their control and prompt such extreme behaviour.

when do you readers believe they first asked ,"What were we thinking?"

Highly unlikely. Why would they be scared of their own Armed Forces  !  ? 

[gypsy]

Exactly, there was no pin point accuracy of bombs or missiles in those days, all the more reason to have TESTS carried out in specific areas where such expeditions as the Dyatlov Group would not venture. The MANSI being the local tribe have not mentioned anything that looks like Military Aircraft or Missiles being tested in the area in question.  They would know wouldnt they  !  ?

To be honest, I have no idea how familiar were the Mansi with modern tech of that time, let alone something under development. They mentioned bright lights in the sky, just like Ivanov. I don't know how would Mansi have interpreted the sighting for example decoy flares used in air force training. There is hardly ever any evidence on the ground after aerial combat or other air force training, unless something goes wrong.

The Ural Polytechnic Institute which is called today Ural State Technical University (USTU) is the biggest technical institution of higher education in Russia, with a prestigious history going back to 1920.  It trained some of the best scientists in the USSR and now RUSSIA. What does this tell us  !  ?  It tells us you are wrong in your deduction re the Authorities.

The air force would have NEVER shared an information of that nature with any educational institution, not even in democratic country. A person needs an individual security clearance to access that. It would also defeat the purpose of labeling certain activities top secret. (Even if there was let's  say "closed circle" of personnel at the Polytechnic istitute with security clearance, they would risk prosecution and life sentence for treason if they disclosed it)

[gypsy]

Hi again,

Personally, I think that the jet(s) would not have to fire a shot. All that is necessary is to induce a ground vibration so strong that the possibility of avalanche seems iminant. It would be foolish for the party to stay in the tent and wait and see what will happen next. It would be just as pointless for one person to poke their head out of the tent and look around. The only thing that matters is that they all came to the singular conclusion that staying in the tent was not worth dying for. Even taking time to put on boots is chancy since a snow slide could bury the tent before they could dress. They go to the trees because a snow slide would go as far, should it happen. They continue all the way down the slope because a snow slide could happen at any time. Only a threat from the air would be totally out of their control and prompt such extreme behaviour.

when do you readers believe they first asked ,"What were we thinking?"

Highly unlikely. Why would they be scared of their own Armed Forces  !  ?

Friendly fire and civilian kills by mistake are far to common to be ruled out. Anybody would be scared if under impression of an incoming threat of being bombed (not necessarily a genuine threat) To put it bluntly, I would be scared to death if was in a wrong place in Iraq if I was under impression of an incoming air strike fom USAF, no matter if I was American too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_friendly_fire_incidents

[Star man]

So you are suggesting that the USSR used the area for practice bombing runs  !  ?  And do you not think that the Educational Establishment that assisted the Dyatlov Group would not be aware of such MILITARY TESTING AREAS  !  ?

Are we so sure that if there was EVER a military/air force training, the high command would send a telegram to every comrade at schools, local Komsomol etc. to let them know? These tests were classified top secret in the USSR. Are so sure that even if it was known to local authorities, everything went according to plan? There was no GPS and no AGM Hellfire missiles with pinpoint navigation at that time. Navigation technology-wise, 1959 is not so far from 1945 when whole USAF squadron bombed Prague instead of Dresden because of an error in navigation...

Involvement of military/air force in the area can be confirmed or dismissed by the authorities if they wished to do that. There must be a record of every single excercise in the archives. Until that information is declassified, the theory is plausible (but nowhere near confirmed).

You are right.  There is no way that the authorities had the level of control required to ensure that every department and organisation knew everything that was going on in all the other departments.  Especially when it came to testing new technologies.  We can't even achieve that level of control today with all of our advances in IT.

The Ural Polytechnic Institute which is called today Ural State Technical University (USTU) is the biggest technical institution of higher education in Russia, with a prestigious history going back to 1920.  It trained some of the best scientists in the USSR and now RUSSIA.  What does this tell us  !  ?  It tells us you are wrong in your deduction re the Authorities.

It tells us only what you have stated about the the university.  That it's a good Russian University.  People as a general rule are very poor at communication.  Even when they want to be communicative.  Large organisations are notorious for poor communication leading to errors and inefficiencies and mistakes.  What you are trying to say is kind of like - people don't make mistakes or forget to do things they are suppose to.

Just look at the different witness statements about the location of Dyatlov' s jacket in the DPI.  This is a good example of what happens when information is processed and communicated by people.

[GlennM]

All behaviour is motivated. If the hikers were assaulted on the ground, cut out if their tent and made to march down hill, there must be a reason. Allowing a group to return for supplies is unreasonable. Keeping supplies at camp to tempt them to return is unreasonable. Assaulting 9 healthy people at night in sub zero temperature who are stuck on a hilkside is a collosal investment of time and energy with no positive outcome is illogical. Not robbing them is more illogical. Doing it for fun, religion or a good scare is a collosal, dangerous and pointless act. The only thing tha makes sense is the hikers were up against something they could not fight, nor win against. Jets and jet related effects including manuevers  is reasonable.

[Star man]

All behaviour is motivated. If the hikers were assaulted on the ground, cut out if their tent and made to march down hill, there must be a reason. Allowing a group to return for supplies is unreasonable. Keeping supplies at camp to tempt them to return is unreasonable. Assaulting 9 healthy people at night in sub zero temperature who are stuck on a hilkside is a collosal investment of time and energy with no positive outcome is illogical. Not robbing them is more illogical. Doing it for fun, religion or a good scare is a collosal, dangerous and pointless act. The only thing tha makes sense is the hikers were up against something they could not fight, nor win against. Jets and jet related effects including manuevers  is reasonable.

These hikers were experienced and knew the risks of leaving the tent and the camp.  They would have to be sure that they were in immediate danger.

Also why grab a camera if they were petrified and panicked?

There was likely to be some kind of warning or build up before they realised the danger.

[sarapuk]

Exactly, there was no pin point accuracy of bombs or missiles in those days, all the more reason to have TESTS carried out in specific areas where such expeditions as the Dyatlov Group would not venture. The MANSI being the local tribe have not mentioned anything that looks like Military Aircraft or Missiles being tested in the area in question.  They would know wouldnt they  !  ?

To be honest, I have no idea how familiar were the Mansi with modern tech of that time, let alone something under development. They mentioned bright lights in the sky, just like Ivanov. I don't know how would Mansi have interpreted the sighting for example decoy flares used in air force training. There is hardly ever any evidence on the ground after aerial combat or other air force training, unless something goes wrong.

The Ural Polytechnic Institute which is called today Ural State Technical University (USTU) is the biggest technical institution of higher education in Russia, with a prestigious history going back to 1920.  It trained some of the best scientists in the USSR and now RUSSIA. What does this tell us  !  ?  It tells us you are wrong in your deduction re the Authorities.

The air force would have NEVER shared an information of that nature with any educational institution, not even in democratic country. A person needs an individual security clearance to access that. It would also defeat the purpose of labeling certain activities top secret. (Even if there was let's  say "closed circle" of personnel at the Polytechnic istitute with security clearance, they would risk prosecution and life sentence for treason if they disclosed it)

The MANSI were not a stone age tribe and therefore would have had some contact with modern tech.

But the point is that the INSTITUTE worked hand in hand with the Authorities and also the Military for purposes of training scientists who may become involved with the Military.

[sarapuk]

Hi again,

Personally, I think that the jet(s) would not have to fire a shot. All that is necessary is to induce a ground vibration so strong that the possibility of avalanche seems iminant. It would be foolish for the party to stay in the tent and wait and see what will happen next. It would be just as pointless for one person to poke their head out of the tent and look around. The only thing that matters is that they all came to the singular conclusion that staying in the tent was not worth dying for. Even taking time to put on boots is chancy since a snow slide could bury the tent before they could dress. They go to the trees because a snow slide would go as far, should it happen. They continue all the way down the slope because a snow slide could happen at any time. Only a threat from the air would be totally out of their control and prompt such extreme behaviour.

when do you readers believe they first asked ,"What were we thinking?"

Highly unlikely. Why would they be scared of their own Armed Forces  !  ?

Friendly fire and civilian kills by mistake are far to common to be ruled out. Anybody would be scared if under impression of an incoming threat of being bombed (not necessarily a genuine threat) To put it bluntly, I would be scared to death if was in a wrong place in Iraq if I was under impression of an incoming air strike fom USAF, no matter if I was American too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_friendly_fire_incidents

No evidence found on the ground to suggest BOMBS or MISSILE attacks.  If they were aware of low flying warplanes they could still have gathered their life support equipment before walking a mile away from their Tent.

[sarapuk]

So you are suggesting that the USSR used the area for practice bombing runs  !  ?  And do you not think that the Educational Establishment that assisted the Dyatlov Group would not be aware of such MILITARY TESTING AREAS  !  ?

Are we so sure that if there was EVER a military/air force training, the high command would send a telegram to every comrade at schools, local Komsomol etc. to let them know? These tests were classified top secret in the USSR. Are so sure that even if it was known to local authorities, everything went according to plan? There was no GPS and no AGM Hellfire missiles with pinpoint navigation at that time. Navigation technology-wise, 1959 is not so far from 1945 when whole USAF squadron bombed Prague instead of Dresden because of an error in navigation...

Involvement of military/air force in the area can be confirmed or dismissed by the authorities if they wished to do that. There must be a record of every single excercise in the archives. Until that information is declassified, the theory is plausible (but nowhere near confirmed).

You are right.  There is no way that the authorities had the level of control required to ensure that every department and organisation knew everything that was going on in all the other departments.  Especially when it came to testing new technologies.  We can't even achieve that level of control today with all of our advances in IT.

The Ural Polytechnic Institute which is called today Ural State Technical University (USTU) is the biggest technical institution of higher education in Russia, with a prestigious history going back to 1920.  It trained some of the best scientists in the USSR and now RUSSIA.  What does this tell us  !  ?  It tells us you are wrong in your deduction re the Authorities.

It tells us only what you have stated about the the university.  That it's a good Russian University.  People as a general rule are very poor at communication.  Even when they want to be communicative.  Large organisations are notorious for poor communication leading to errors and inefficiencies and mistakes.  What you are trying to say is kind of like - people don't make mistakes or forget to do things they are suppose to.

Just look at the different witness statements about the location of Dyatlov' s jacket in the DPI.  This is a good example of what happens when information is processed and communicated by people.

It wasnt just a good INSTITUTE it was one of the most important in the USSR. It had connections to the Military Authorities, etc.

[sarapuk]

All behaviour is motivated. If the hikers were assaulted on the ground, cut out if their tent and made to march down hill, there must be a reason. Allowing a group to return for supplies is unreasonable. Keeping supplies at camp to tempt them to return is unreasonable. Assaulting 9 healthy people at night in sub zero temperature who are stuck on a hilkside is a collosal investment of time and energy with no positive outcome is illogical. Not robbing them is more illogical. Doing it for fun, religion or a good scare is a collosal, dangerous and pointless act. The only thing tha makes sense is the hikers were up against something they could not fight, nor win against. Jets and jet related effects including manuevers  is reasonable.

Jets are reasonable  !  ?  No they are not because they would have had to have been Jets of the USSR. And its highly unlikely that the Military Authorities, who worked closely with the INSTITUTE that sent the Dyatlov Group to that area, would conduct manuevers in that area. 

[sarapuk]

All behaviour is motivated. If the hikers were assaulted on the ground, cut out if their tent and made to march down hill, there must be a reason. Allowing a group to return for supplies is unreasonable. Keeping supplies at camp to tempt them to return is unreasonable. Assaulting 9 healthy people at night in sub zero temperature who are stuck on a hilkside is a collosal investment of time and energy with no positive outcome is illogical. Not robbing them is more illogical. Doing it for fun, religion or a good scare is a collosal, dangerous and pointless act. The only thing tha makes sense is the hikers were up against something they could not fight, nor win against. Jets and jet related effects including manuevers  is reasonable.

These hikers were experienced and knew the risks of leaving the tent and the camp.  They would have to be sure that they were in immediate danger.

Also why grab a camera if they were petrified and panicked?

There was likely to be some kind of warning or build up before they realised the danger.

Well that warning or build up would have been fairly quick I would have thought. They left in a hurry or they would have had time to get dressed properly.

[gypsy]

All behaviour is motivated. If the hikers were assaulted on the ground, cut out if their tent and made to march down hill, there must be a reason. Allowing a group to return for supplies is unreasonable. Keeping supplies at camp to tempt them to return is unreasonable. Assaulting 9 healthy people at night in sub zero temperature who are stuck on a hilkside is a collosal investment of time and energy with no positive outcome is illogical. Not robbing them is more illogical. Doing it for fun, religion or a good scare is a collosal, dangerous and pointless act. The only thing tha makes sense is the hikers were up against something they could not fight, nor win against. Jets and jet related effects including manuevers  is reasonable.

Jets are reasonable  !  ?  No they are not because they would have had to have been Jets of the USSR. And its highly unlikely that the Military Authorities, who worked closely with the INSTITUTE that sent the Dyatlov Group to that area, would conduct manuevers in that area.

How EXACTLY was the air force of the USSR connected to the institute?

[sarapuk]

All behaviour is motivated. If the hikers were assaulted on the ground, cut out if their tent and made to march down hill, there must be a reason. Allowing a group to return for supplies is unreasonable. Keeping supplies at camp to tempt them to return is unreasonable. Assaulting 9 healthy people at night in sub zero temperature who are stuck on a hilkside is a collosal investment of time and energy with no positive outcome is illogical. Not robbing them is more illogical. Doing it for fun, religion or a good scare is a collosal, dangerous and pointless act. The only thing tha makes sense is the hikers were up against something they could not fight, nor win against. Jets and jet related effects including manuevers  is reasonable.

The exact nature of the connection would be classified. But its common knowledge that the INSTITUTE was very much an important part of the machinery of the USSR, and that includes MILITARY. Today you have colleges and schools that have close connections with the Military especially in the USA.

Jets are reasonable  !  ?  No they are not because they would have had to have been Jets of the USSR. And its highly unlikely that the Military Authorities, who worked closely with the INSTITUTE that sent the Dyatlov Group to that area, would conduct manuevers in that area.

How EXACTLY was the air force of the USSR connected to the institute?

[Star man]

So you are suggesting that the USSR used the area for practice bombing runs  !  ?  And do you not think that the Educational Establishment that assisted the Dyatlov Group would not be aware of such MILITARY TESTING AREAS  !  ?

Are we so sure that if there was EVER a military/air force training, the high command would send a telegram to every comrade at schools, local Komsomol etc. to let them know? These tests were classified top secret in the USSR. Are so sure that even if it was known to local authorities, everything went according to plan? There was no GPS and no AGM Hellfire missiles with pinpoint navigation at that time. Navigation technology-wise, 1959 is not so far from 1945 when whole USAF squadron bombed Prague instead of Dresden because of an error in navigation...

Involvement of military/air force in the area can be confirmed or dismissed by the authorities if they wished to do that. There must be a record of every single excercise in the archives. Until that information is declassified, the theory is plausible (but nowhere near confirmed).

You are right.  There is no way that the authorities had the level of control required to ensure that every department and organisation knew everything that was going on in all the other departments.  Especially when it came to testing new technologies.  We can't even achieve that level of control today with all of our advances in IT.

The Ural Polytechnic Institute which is called today Ural State Technical University (USTU) is the biggest technical institution of higher education in Russia, with a prestigious history going back to 1920.  It trained some of the best scientists in the USSR and now RUSSIA.  What does this tell us  !  ?  It tells us you are wrong in your deduction re the Authorities.

It tells us only what you have stated about the the university.  That it's a good Russian University.  People as a general rule are very poor at communication.  Even when they want to be communicative.  Large organisations are notorious for poor communication leading to errors and inefficiencies and mistakes.  What you are trying to say is kind of like - people don't make mistakes or forget to do things they are suppose to.

Just look at the different witness statements about the location of Dyatlov' s jacket in the DPI.  This is a good example of what happens when information is processed and communicated by people.

It wasnt just a good INSTITUTE it was one of the most important in the USSR. It had connections to the Military Authorities, etc.

It doesn't matter how good it was.  The collective machine will still get many things wrong.  To assume otherwise is flawed.

[sarapuk]

So you are suggesting that the USSR used the area for practice bombing runs  !  ?  And do you not think that the Educational Establishment that assisted the Dyatlov Group would not be aware of such MILITARY TESTING AREAS  !  ?

Are we so sure that if there was EVER a military/air force training, the high command would send a telegram to every comrade at schools, local Komsomol etc. to let them know? These tests were classified top secret in the USSR. Are so sure that even if it was known to local authorities, everything went according to plan? There was no GPS and no AGM Hellfire missiles with pinpoint navigation at that time. Navigation technology-wise, 1959 is not so far from 1945 when whole USAF squadron bombed Prague instead of Dresden because of an error in navigation...

Involvement of military/air force in the area can be confirmed or dismissed by the authorities if they wished to do that. There must be a record of every single excercise in the archives. Until that information is declassified, the theory is plausible (but nowhere near confirmed).

You are right.  There is no way that the authorities had the level of control required to ensure that every department and organisation knew everything that was going on in all the other departments.  Especially when it came to testing new technologies.  We can't even achieve that level of control today with all of our advances in IT.

The Ural Polytechnic Institute which is called today Ural State Technical University (USTU) is the biggest technical institution of higher education in Russia, with a prestigious history going back to 1920.  It trained some of the best scientists in the USSR and now RUSSIA.  What does this tell us  !  ?  It tells us you are wrong in your deduction re the Authorities.

It tells us only what you have stated about the the university.  That it's a good Russian University.  People as a general rule are very poor at communication.  Even when they want to be communicative.  Large organisations are notorious for poor communication leading to errors and inefficiencies and mistakes.  What you are trying to say is kind of like - people don't make mistakes or forget to do things they are suppose to.

Just look at the different witness statements about the location of Dyatlov' s jacket in the DPI.  This is a good example of what happens when information is processed and communicated by people.

It wasnt just a good INSTITUTE it was one of the most important in the USSR. It had connections to the Military Authorities, etc.

It doesn't matter how good it was.  The collective machine will still get many things wrong.  To assume otherwise is flawed.

How do you know what went on in the USSR  !  ? 

[Star man]

So you are suggesting that the USSR used the area for practice bombing runs  !  ?  And do you not think that the Educational Establishment that assisted the Dyatlov Group would not be aware of such MILITARY TESTING AREAS  !  ?

Are we so sure that if there was EVER a military/air force training, the high command would send a telegram to every comrade at schools, local Komsomol etc. to let them know? These tests were classified top secret in the USSR. Are so sure that even if it was known to local authorities, everything went according to plan? There was no GPS and no AGM Hellfire missiles with pinpoint navigation at that time. Navigation technology-wise, 1959 is not so far from 1945 when whole USAF squadron bombed Prague instead of Dresden because of an error in navigation...

Involvement of military/air force in the area can be confirmed or dismissed by the authorities if they wished to do that. There must be a record of every single excercise in the archives. Until that information is declassified, the theory is plausible (but nowhere near confirmed).

You are right.  There is no way that the authorities had the level of control required to ensure that every department and organisation knew everything that was going on in all the other departments.  Especially when it came to testing new technologies.  We can't even achieve that level of control today with all of our advances in IT.

The Ural Polytechnic Institute which is called today Ural State Technical University (USTU) is the biggest technical institution of higher education in Russia, with a prestigious history going back to 1920.  It trained some of the best scientists in the USSR and now RUSSIA.  What does this tell us  !  ?  It tells us you are wrong in your deduction re the Authorities.

It tells us only what you have stated about the the university.  That it's a good Russian University.  People as a general rule are very poor at communication.  Even when they want to be communicative.  Large organisations are notorious for poor communication leading to errors and inefficiencies and mistakes.  What you are trying to say is kind of like - people don't make mistakes or forget to do things they are suppose to.

Just look at the different witness statements about the location of Dyatlov' s jacket in the DPI.  This is a good example of what happens when information is processed and communicated by people.

It wasnt just a good INSTITUTE it was one of the most important in the USSR. It had connections to the Military Authorities, etc.

It doesn't matter how good it was.  The collective machine will still get many things wrong.  To assume otherwise is flawed.

How do you know what went on in the USSR  !  ?

I know that they are people.  And any system involving people will be far from perfect.

[GlennM]

Hikers left the high ground and sought the low ground. Reasonable. They tried to return, also reasonable. They made fire and tried to dug a cave. Reasonable. They took clothes from the dead. Reasonable. They abandoned their camp because there was something they could not reason with. You can't reason with a jet. You can't reason with shaking ground and you can't reason with snow. You certainly can't reason with the combination of all 3. The three stimuli elicit one of two responses, namely fight or flight. Flight is reasonable.

Does make me wonder if jets produce enough vibration to register seismically? Could the USA detect that in 1959?

[sarapuk]

Hikers left the high ground and sought the low ground. Reasonable. They tried to return, also reasonable. They made fire and tried to dug a cave. Reasonable. They took clothes from the dead. Reasonable. They abandoned their camp because there was something they could not reason with. You can't reason with a jet. You can't reason with shaking ground and you can't reason with snow. You certainly can't reason with the combination of all 3. The three stimuli elicit one of two responses, namely fight or flight. Flight is reasonable.

Does make me wonder if jets produce enough vibration to register seismically? Could the USA detect that in 1959?

Is it reasonable to leave the safety of the TENT not properly clothed or equipped and walk a mile in severe weather conditions  !  ?  Your hypothetical JET is doing what exactly  !  ?  Is it flying around and around or what  !  ? 

[Star man]

A low flying jet passing the mountain would only startle them.  They would not put their lives at risk for that.  If the jet had dropped flares as a marker and the group thought that some kind of weapon would be dropped then why wasn't it dropped?  They would not just drop flares for the no reason.

So why would the tourist think their lives were at risk?

[GlennM]

Hi guys,

The search for new evidence goes on because nobody has found the proverbial smoking gun. It is probable there will not be any. Jets leave nothing but a roar and a rumble. At night, intentions unclear, snowpack disturbed, getting out of danger is reasonable. Walking a mile in snow is not reasonable unless at some point the need for heat was greater than the need for shelter.This sends them to the trees. There is no evidence the hikers were approached on ground by man nor beast. All their property remained. The threat was temporary, but life threatening.The behavior of the hikers is logical and consistent with survival instinct at the tree, the trail or the ravine. When you rule out the impossible, whatever remains, though unlikely is the reason.

[Star man]

Hi guys,

The search for new evidence goes on because nobody has found the proverbial smoking gun. It is probable there will not be any. Jets leave nothing but a roar and a rumble. At night, intentions unclear, snowpack disturbed, getting out of danger is reasonable. Walking a mile in snow is not reasonable unless at some point the need for heat was greater than the need for shelter.This sends them to the trees. There is no evidence the hikers were approached on ground by man nor beast. All their property remained. The threat was temporary, but life threatening.The behavior of the hikers is logical and consistent with survival instinct at the tree, the trail or the ravine. When you rule out the impossible, whatever remains, though unlikely is the reason.

You are right that there is no smoking gun.  The camp site is where the smoking gun was likely to be.  Problem is the camp site was not well preserved as a scene when search and rescue teams arrived.  Which means there multiple possible theories.  A jet is just of those.  Eliminating the various theories is difficult.

[sarapuk]

Hi guys,

The search for new evidence goes on because nobody has found the proverbial smoking gun. It is probable there will not be any. Jets leave nothing but a roar and a rumble. At night, intentions unclear, snowpack disturbed, getting out of danger is reasonable. Walking a mile in snow is not reasonable unless at some point the need for heat was greater than the need for shelter.This sends them to the trees. There is no evidence the hikers were approached on ground by man nor beast. All their property remained. The threat was temporary, but life threatening.The behavior of the hikers is logical and consistent with survival instinct at the tree, the trail or the ravine. When you rule out the impossible, whatever remains, though unlikely is the reason.

You seem to be missing the point. You said the threat was temporary. But how do you know that the threat was temporary  !  ? And if it was temporary why on earth would they all walk a mile in such conditions without being fully clothed and equipped, a sure death sentence if ever there was.