Soviet military

[GlennM]

Hi all,
Grist to the mill. First, the tragedy was buried for thirty years, no pun intended. Secondly,  there is a missing roll of film. If the hikers were not just listening, but also transmitting and it was intercepted, then perhaps the Soviet asks ,"who in the world would be horsing around with a radio in the middle of nowhere in the dead of night?". The military does a flyover. The hikers fear a fundimental attribution error and run for cover. Russia had a very good reason to be on guard. They locked horns with the only country on earth that used a nuclear weapon, twice! Nikita K. was angling to use Cuba. The doomsday clock wes about 4 minutes from midnight.

They did find a radio transmitter, right?

[sarapuk]

Hi all,
Grist to the mill. First, the tragedy was buried for thirty years, no pun intended. Secondly,  there is a missing roll of film. If the hikers were not just listening, but also transmitting and it was intercepted, then perhaps the Soviet asks ,"who in the world would be horsing around with a radio in the middle of nowhere in the dead of night?". The military does a flyover. The hikers fear a fundimental attribution error and run for cover. Russia had a very good reason to be on guard. They locked horns with the only country on earth that used a nuclear weapon, twice! Nikita K. was angling to use Cuba. The doomsday clock wes about 4 minutes from midnight.

They did find a radio transmitter, right?

I wouldnt say the EVENT was buried for 30 years, more like it was just forgotten and only in peoples memory especially relatives and friends. There appears to be lots of missing items not just a roll of film. Such Groups didnt just wonder willy nilly into these wilderness areas without first clearing it with their superiors. So there is absolutely no reason to believe that the USSR Military were involved in this Groups DEMISE.

[gypsy]

Hi all,
Grist to the mill. First, the tragedy was buried for thirty years, no pun intended. Secondly,  there is a missing roll of film. If the hikers were not just listening, but also transmitting and it was intercepted, then perhaps the Soviet asks ,"who in the world would be horsing around with a radio in the middle of nowhere in the dead of night?". The military does a flyover. The hikers fear a fundimental attribution error and run for cover. Russia had a very good reason to be on guard. They locked horns with the only country on earth that used a nuclear weapon, twice! Nikita K. was angling to use Cuba. The doomsday clock wes about 4 minutes from midnight.

They did find a radio transmitter, right?

I wouldnt say the EVENT was buried for 30 years, more like it was just forgotten and only in peoples memory especially relatives and friends. There appears to be lots of missing items not just a roll of film. Such Groups didnt just wonder willy nilly into these wilderness areas without first clearing it with their superiors. So there is absolutely no reason to believe that the USSR Military were involved in this Groups DEMISE.

The superiors of the Dyatlov group were 99,9% unlikely to have access to classified information about ANY military activities. In the 0,01% unlikely scenario where they would know something, they would be strictly forbidden to tell anybody without the security clearance. It is written exactly in the Article 259 of the Criminal Code of the Russian SFR. Such action was punishable 2-5 years in prison in the absence of inditia of treason or 10 years to death penalty in case of a conviction of treason (deliberate spread of classified information to an outside party).

There is no logical way to assume that any part of the Amed forces (Air force for example) would share any kind of information regarding the testing of weapons or any other activity outside their department, the high command and the leadership of the USSR. There is an actual list of people who can have access to state secrets ex oficio and the people who approved the route of Dyatlov group just are not on the list. Anybody else would need an individual security clearance.

We know for a fact there were tests of weapon systems, airplanes and other technology in 1959, we just cannot prove that it was underway at the exact time or place. On the balance of probablity, it is actually very rational to assume that one or more of these tests or excercises might have gone wrong. We obviously do not know that, there is only circumstantial evidence of a cover-up so far. Hence if we assume there was a cover-up or at least some evidence was confiscated , it points us at the direction that someting that was classified at the time took place in early February 1959. That obviously does not mean that such an activity had a DIRECT effect on what happened to Dyatlov&co, but it is a reasonable theory and a legitimate possibility to consider when the investigation is on.

[sarapuk]

Hi all,
Grist to the mill. First, the tragedy was buried for thirty years, no pun intended. Secondly,  there is a missing roll of film. If the hikers were not just listening, but also transmitting and it was intercepted, then perhaps the Soviet asks ,"who in the world would be horsing around with a radio in the middle of nowhere in the dead of night?". The military does a flyover. The hikers fear a fundimental attribution error and run for cover. Russia had a very good reason to be on guard. They locked horns with the only country on earth that used a nuclear weapon, twice! Nikita K. was angling to use Cuba. The doomsday clock wes about 4 minutes from midnight.

They did find a radio transmitter, right?

I wouldnt say the EVENT was buried for 30 years, more like it was just forgotten and only in peoples memory especially relatives and friends. There appears to be lots of missing items not just a roll of film. Such Groups didnt just wonder willy nilly into these wilderness areas without first clearing it with their superiors. So there is absolutely no reason to believe that the USSR Military were involved in this Groups DEMISE.

The superiors of the Dyatlov group were 99,9% unlikely to have access to classified information about ANY military activities. In the 0,01% unlikely scenario where they would know something, they would be strictly forbidden to tell anybody without the security clearance. It is written exactly in the Article 259 of the Criminal Code of the Russian SFR. Such action was punishable 2-5 years in prison in the absence of inditia of treason or 10 years to death penalty in case of a conviction of treason (deliberate spread of classified information to an outside party).

There is no logical way to assume that any part of the Amed forces (Air force for example) would share any kind of information regarding the testing of weapons or any other activity outside their department, the high command and the leadership of the USSR. There is an actual list of people who can have access to state secrets ex oficio and the people who approved the route of Dyatlov group just are not on the list. Anybody else would need an individual security clearance.

We know for a fact there were tests of weapon systems, airplanes and other technology in 1959, we just cannot prove that it was underway at the exact time or place. On the balance of probablity, it is actually very rational to assume that one or more of these tests or excercises might have gone wrong. We obviously do not know that, there is only circumstantial evidence of a cover-up so far. Hence if we assume there was a cover-up or at least some evidence was confiscated , it points us at the direction that someting that was classified at the time took place in early February 1959. That obviously does not mean that such an activity had a DIRECT effect on what happened to Dyatlov&co, but it is a reasonable theory and a legitimate possibility to consider when the investigation is on.

Why do you bring up Classified Information  !  ?  Even in the USSR they had good old common sense.  The Dyatlov Group would only need to know whether or not the area that they were tavelling through was not subject to any Military excercises at the time of their PLANNED ROUTE. Note ; PLANNED ROUTE, that means date and times of travel as well as the actual route. Its so obvious that the Military of the USSR along with most other Militaries in the World have and still do carry out all sorts of exercises. There is absolutely no evidence what so ever to suggest that any Military Accident caused the demise of the Dyatlov group.

[GlennM]

Hello,
Have you seen the picture of the collapsed tent bring looked upon be the search party. I did and I am baffled. The snow on and near the canvas looks chunky, not at all like drift snow. The snow looks like it was thrown on the canvas. In the near distance the slope appears smooth and windswept. Snow thrown on the tent? Of course it didn't happen that someone threw boulder sized chunks of snow on the tent and around it.. Could it be possible that a blast on the far side of the hill rained down these bread loaf sized pieces of snow?  The blast of course would have come from munitions.which were delivered by jets. If true then a bombardment of solid snow raining down on the tent would prompt evacuation, post haste. I am not aware of anyone looking on the back side of the hill for evidence, are you?

[gypsy]

Why do you bring up Classified Information  !  ?  Even in the USSR they had good old common sense.  The Dyatlov Group would only need to know whether or not the area that they were tavelling through was not subject to any Military excercises at the time of their PLANNED ROUTE. Note ; PLANNED ROUTE, that means date and times of travel as well as the actual route. Its so obvious that the Military of the USSR along with most other Militaries in the World have and still do carry out all sorts of exercises. There is absolutely no evidence what so ever to suggest that any Military Accident caused the demise of the Dyatlov group.

I bring it up because it is relevant to the theory of government or military involvement. To cut the long story short, the very poor standard of the investigation along with Ivanov's statements and later actions strongly suggest there was something to cover up or to withhold certain information from the public. The legal basis for that is that there was something that the state considered classified.  I would really like to know what Ivanov discussed in Moscow before he agreed to close the case or why was the area closed to public for next 3 years.

"For the shortcomings in the organization of tourist work and weak control of the bureau of the Sverdlovsk GC the CPSU punished in party terms: the director of the Ural Polytechnic Institute Siunov, the secretary of the party bureau Zaostrovsky, the chairman of the trade union UPK Slobodin, the chairman of the city union of voluntary sports societies Kurochkin and the inspector of the union Ufimtsev. The chairman of the board of the sports club of the Gordo Institute has been removed from work."

This statement signed by Ivanov pretty much contradicts your claims about how the "authorities" at the Institute would not have made a mistake to approve the "wrong" route of the Dyatlov group. They were actually punished for doing so.

[Nigel Evans]

Hello,
Have you seen the picture of the collapsed tent bring looked upon be the search party. I did and I am baffled. The snow on and near the canvas looks chunky, not at all like drift snow. The snow looks like it was thrown on the canvas. In the near distance the slope appears smooth and windswept. Snow thrown on the tent? Of course it didn't happen that someone threw boulder sized chunks of snow on the tent and around it.. Could it be possible that a blast on the far side of the hill rained down these bread loaf sized pieces of snow?  The blast of course would have come from munitions.which were delivered by jets. If true then a bombardment of solid snow raining down on the tent would prompt evacuation, post haste. I am not aware of anyone looking on the back side of the hill for evidence, are you?

When the rescuers reached the tent they found the snow on the tent "as hard as wood" and cut the tent breaking through it. Which would explain the chunks. Why it was as hard as wood is more interesting, perhaps the temperature was raised before refreezing or some chemical process...

[Star man]

Why do you bring up Classified Information  !  ?  Even in the USSR they had good old common sense.  The Dyatlov Group would only need to know whether or not the area that they were tavelling through was not subject to any Military excercises at the time of their PLANNED ROUTE. Note ; PLANNED ROUTE, that means date and times of travel as well as the actual route. Its so obvious that the Military of the USSR along with most other Militaries in the World have and still do carry out all sorts of exercises. There is absolutely no evidence what so ever to suggest that any Military Accident caused the demise of the Dyatlov group.

I bring it up because it is relevant to the theory of government or military involvement. To cut the long story short, the very poor standard of the investigation along with Ivanov's statements and later actions strongly suggest there was something to cover up or to withhold certain information from the public. The legal basis for that is that there was something that the state considered classified.  I would really like to know what Ivanov discussed in Moscow before he agreed to close the case or why was the area closed to public for next 3 years.

"For the shortcomings in the organization of tourist work and weak control of the bureau of the Sverdlovsk GC the CPSU punished in party terms: the director of the Ural Polytechnic Institute Siunov, the secretary of the party bureau Zaostrovsky, the chairman of the trade union UPK Slobodin, the chairman of the city union of voluntary sports societies Kurochkin and the inspector of the union Ufimtsev. The chairman of the board of the sports club of the Gordo Institute has been removed from work."

This statement signed by Ivanov pretty much contradicts your claims about how the "authorities" at the Institute would not have made a mistake to approve the "wrong" route of the Dyatlov group. They were actually punished for doing so.

Are you saying that these people were actually punished for approving their route?  If so how did you find this out?  I think this would be very important information for the case if it is correct.

[Star man]

Hello,
Have you seen the picture of the collapsed tent bring looked upon be the search party. I did and I am baffled. The snow on and near the canvas looks chunky, not at all like drift snow. The snow looks like it was thrown on the canvas. In the near distance the slope appears smooth and windswept. Snow thrown on the tent? Of course it didn't happen that someone threw boulder sized chunks of snow on the tent and around it.. Could it be possible that a blast on the far side of the hill rained down these bread loaf sized pieces of snow?  The blast of course would have come from munitions.which were delivered by jets. If true then a bombardment of solid snow raining down on the tent would prompt evacuation, post haste. I am not aware of anyone looking on the back side of the hill for evidence, are you?

The Dyatlov group dug out a lot of snow when they set up the tent.  Some of this snow was suppose to have blown away and covered some of the foot prints around the tent.  The lumps could be the snow that was dug out when they pitched their tent.

[gypsy]

Are you saying that these people were actually punished for approving their route?  If so how did you find this out?  I think this would be very important information for the case if it is correct.

It says so in the Ivanov's reasoning for closing the investigation. At very least they were removed from their positions. I would prefer that a Russian speaker takes a look at the original scans so the meaning is not lost in translation. Also, the official letter to justify why they were fired must have existed.

https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-384-387?rbid=17743

[Nigel Evans]

Hence if we assume there was a cover-up or at least some evidence was confiscated ,

There's no need to assume it, Okishev and Ivanov stated it as fact and Okishev recalled that the confiscation was performed by a officer with the rank of Colonel. Which is quite a high rank for the task of collecting some papers and photos... Clearly of some importance.

This from Ivanov's interview :-
The fact is that at the time of our investigation the Tagilsky Rabochiy newspaper published a small article about sighting during the students’ ascent of the Otorten of a Fire Orb, or, as we call it today, an Unidentified Flying Object (UFO) in the sky above Nizhny Tagil. In absolute silence the strange light crossed the sky in the direction of the northern tops of the Ural mountains. The author of the article questioned: what could that be? The newspaper editor was severely reprimanded for this publication, and I, in my turn, received orders from the Obkom to abstain from research into this topic. Supervision of my investigation into the case was taken over by Second secretary of the Party Obkom A.F.Yeshtokin.

[sarapuk]

Hello,
Have you seen the picture of the collapsed tent bring looked upon be the search party. I did and I am baffled. The snow on and near the canvas looks chunky, not at all like drift snow. The snow looks like it was thrown on the canvas. In the near distance the slope appears smooth and windswept. Snow thrown on the tent? Of course it didn't happen that someone threw boulder sized chunks of snow on the tent and around it.. Could it be possible that a blast on the far side of the hill rained down these bread loaf sized pieces of snow?  The blast of course would have come from munitions.which were delivered by jets. If true then a bombardment of solid snow raining down on the tent would prompt evacuation, post haste. I am not aware of anyone looking on the back side of the hill for evidence, are you?

Snow at Tent looks like it could be the result of SNOWING and also wind action.

[sarapuk]

Why do you bring up Classified Information  !  ?  Even in the USSR they had good old common sense.  The Dyatlov Group would only need to know whether or not the area that they were tavelling through was not subject to any Military excercises at the time of their PLANNED ROUTE. Note ; PLANNED ROUTE, that means date and times of travel as well as the actual route. Its so obvious that the Military of the USSR along with most other Militaries in the World have and still do carry out all sorts of exercises. There is absolutely no evidence what so ever to suggest that any Military Accident caused the demise of the Dyatlov group.

I bring it up because it is relevant to the theory of government or military involvement. To cut the long story short, the very poor standard of the investigation along with Ivanov's statements and later actions strongly suggest there was something to cover up or to withhold certain information from the public. The legal basis for that is that there was something that the state considered classified.  I would really like to know what Ivanov discussed in Moscow before he agreed to close the case or why was the area closed to public for next 3 years.

"For the shortcomings in the organization of tourist work and weak control of the bureau of the Sverdlovsk GC the CPSU punished in party terms: the director of the Ural Polytechnic Institute Siunov, the secretary of the party bureau Zaostrovsky, the chairman of the trade union UPK Slobodin, the chairman of the city union of voluntary sports societies Kurochkin and the inspector of the union Ufimtsev. The chairman of the board of the sports club of the Gordo Institute has been removed from work."

This statement signed by Ivanov pretty much contradicts your claims about how the "authorities" at the Institute would not have made a mistake to approve the "wrong" route of the Dyatlov group. They were actually punished for doing so.

Well its a good point you make.  Basically you are saying that the Authorities were wrong to let the Dyatlov Group go on the ROUTE that they did.  However its also possible that the Authorities made the right decision but something so profound happened that the Higher Authorities had to find a cover.

[sarapuk]

Hello,
Have you seen the picture of the collapsed tent bring looked upon be the search party. I did and I am baffled. The snow on and near the canvas looks chunky, not at all like drift snow. The snow looks like it was thrown on the canvas. In the near distance the slope appears smooth and windswept. Snow thrown on the tent? Of course it didn't happen that someone threw boulder sized chunks of snow on the tent and around it.. Could it be possible that a blast on the far side of the hill rained down these bread loaf sized pieces of snow?  The blast of course would have come from munitions.which were delivered by jets. If true then a bombardment of solid snow raining down on the tent would prompt evacuation, post haste. I am not aware of anyone looking on the back side of the hill for evidence, are you?

When the rescuers reached the tent they found the snow on the tent "as hard as wood" and cut the tent breaking through it. Which would explain the chunks. Why it was as hard as wood is more interesting, perhaps the temperature was raised before refreezing or some chemical process...

Wouldnt  FREEZING suffice. 

[sarapuk]

Are you saying that these people were actually punished for approving their route?  If so how did you find this out?  I think this would be very important information for the case if it is correct.

It says so in the Ivanov's reasoning for closing the investigation. At very least they were removed from their positions. I would prefer that a Russian speaker takes a look at the original scans so the meaning is not lost in translation. Also, the official letter to justify why they were fired must have existed.

https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-384-387?rbid=17743

It doesnt actually say that they were punished for approving their route. All it says is ; '' For the shortcomings in the organization of tourist work and weak control of the bureau of the Sverdlovsk GC ''.  I believe one person was removed from his work.

[gypsy]

Well its a good point you make.  Basically you are saying that the Authorities were wrong to let the Dyatlov Group go on the ROUTE that they did.  However its also possible that the Authorities made the right decision but something so profound happened that the Higher Authorities had to find a cover.

Both alternatives are possible. The problem is we only have ex post reference from Ivanov that the people from the Institute were somehow punished. We don't know what was the official reason. Also, the English transcipt is a little confusing, but looks relevant enough to be looked into further.

[Nigel Evans]

When the rescuers reached the tent they found the snow on the tent "as hard as wood" and cut the tent breaking through it. Which would explain the chunks. Why it was as hard as wood is more interesting, perhaps the temperature was raised before refreezing or some chemical process...

Wouldnt  FREEZING suffice.

No the rescuers seem to be describing firn, but produced in atypical conditions - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firn

"Firn has the appearance of wet sugar, but has a hardness that makes it extremely resistant to shovelling.""Individual crystals near the melting point are semiliquid and slick, allowing them to glide along other crystal planes and to fill in the spaces between them, increasing the ice's density"I'm not a snow expert  but sounds to me that the snow on the tent has been warmed before refreezing.

[Nigel Evans]

When the rescuers reached the tent they found the snow on the tent "as hard as wood" and cut the tent breaking through it. Which would explain the chunks. Why it was as hard as wood is more interesting, perhaps the temperature was raised before refreezing or some chemical process...

Wouldnt  FREEZING suffice.

No the rescuers seem to be describing firn, but produced in atypical conditions - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firn

"Firn has the appearance of wet sugar, but has a hardness that makes it extremely resistant to shovelling.""Individual crystals near the melting point are semiliquid and slick, allowing them to glide along other crystal planes and to fill in the spaces between them, increasing the ice's density"I'm not a snow expert  but sounds to me that the snow on the tent has been warmed before refreezing.

Looks like i actually meant neve - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%A9v%C3%A9
Like i said not an expert 

[GlennM]

Thank you all for the discussion and intelligent threads. Curiosity is alive and well. To follow up on the crystalline snow thread, it seems possible that the tent stove, the ambient temperature or an aerial incindiary would be a heat source. I dislike the stove for the reason that the tent interior roof would be scorched. A change in ambient temp is certainly possible, even likely. I struggle with the observation that the tent fly was buried so deeply in rough snow. Rough, not winddrift snow.

 If I were in that situation and I experienced a distant flash and blast, I'd hunker down and wait. If I wait, I have enough time to put on a coat or boots. If that same detonation were very near me blowing chunks of snowy debris hitting the tent, I'd fear that the next blast would be in my lap. I would cut and run!

I understand that  snow chunks on a pitched tent would fall off. Later, when the tent buckled under the weight of snow much renained. The material on the collapsed tent was partially cleared off by the rescuers. It seems that the sheer quantity of blocky snow surrounding the tent, if thrown off by the rescuers would necessitate them stomping all over the top of the collapsed tent, yes?  Please advise. I still find reason to believe their collective misfortune came from the sky, delivered my a man made delivery system. 

[sarapuk]

When the rescuers reached the tent they found the snow on the tent "as hard as wood" and cut the tent breaking through it. Which would explain the chunks. Why it was as hard as wood is more interesting, perhaps the temperature was raised before refreezing or some chemical process...

Wouldnt  FREEZING suffice.

No the rescuers seem to be describing firn, but produced in atypical conditions - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firn

"Firn has the appearance of wet sugar, but has a hardness that makes it extremely resistant to shovelling.""Individual crystals near the melting point are semiliquid and slick, allowing them to glide along other crystal planes and to fill in the spaces between them, increasing the ice's density"I'm not a snow expert  but sounds to me that the snow on the tent has been warmed before refreezing.

So freezing wont suffice.  Yet freezing is the most plausible answer. In fact it is most likely that the Tent was covered in snow and subject to wind, and you then have your chunky bits if thats what they are. Nothing complicated like you suggest with a chemical reaction.

[sarapuk]

When the rescuers reached the tent they found the snow on the tent "as hard as wood" and cut the tent breaking through it. Which would explain the chunks. Why it was as hard as wood is more interesting, perhaps the temperature was raised before refreezing or some chemical process...

Wouldnt  FREEZING suffice.

No the rescuers seem to be describing firn, but produced in atypical conditions - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firn

"Firn has the appearance of wet sugar, but has a hardness that makes it extremely resistant to shovelling.""Individual crystals near the melting point are semiliquid and slick, allowing them to glide along other crystal planes and to fill in the spaces between them, increasing the ice's density"I'm not a snow expert  but sounds to me that the snow on the tent has been warmed before refreezing.

Looks like i actually meant neve - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%A9v%C3%A9
Like i said not an expert 

Neve  !  ?  Thats even less plausible.  You are going into very cold zones and higher altitudes with Neve.

[sarapuk]

Thank you all for the discussion and intelligent threads. Curiosity is alive and well. To follow up on the crystalline snow thread, it seems possible that the tent stove, the ambient temperature or an aerial incindiary would be a heat source. I dislike the stove for the reason that the tent interior roof would be scorched. A change in ambient temp is certainly possible, even likely. I struggle with the observation that the tent fly was buried so deeply in rough snow. Rough, not winddrift snow.

 If I were in that situation and I experienced a distant flash and blast, I'd hunker down and wait. If I wait, I have enough time to put on a coat or boots. If that same detonation were very near me blowing chunks of snowy debris hitting the tent, I'd fear that the next blast would be in my lap. I would cut and run!

I understand that  snow chunks on a pitched tent would fall off. Later, when the tent buckled under the weight of snow much renained. The material on the collapsed tent was partially cleared off by the rescuers. It seems that the sheer quantity of blocky snow surrounding the tent, if thrown off by the rescuers would necessitate them stomping all over the top of the collapsed tent, yes?  Please advise. I still find reason to believe their collective misfortune came from the sky, delivered my a man made delivery system.

The snow accumulated on the tent assisted by winds and freezing temperatures.  Nothing complicated in the most plausible reason. There was no heat or blast from anything at the Tent.

[Nigel Evans]

Thank you all for the discussion and intelligent threads. Curiosity is alive and well. To follow up on the crystalline snow thread, it seems possible that the tent stove, the ambient temperature or an aerial incindiary would be a heat source. I dislike the stove for the reason that the tent interior roof would be scorched. A change in ambient temp is certainly possible, even likely. I struggle with the observation that the tent fly was buried so deeply in rough snow. Rough, not winddrift snow.

 If I were in that situation and I experienced a distant flash and blast, I'd hunker down and wait. If I wait, I have enough time to put on a coat or boots. If that same detonation were very near me blowing chunks of snowy debris hitting the tent, I'd fear that the next blast would be in my lap. I would cut and run!

I understand that  snow chunks on a pitched tent would fall off. Later, when the tent buckled under the weight of snow much renained. The material on the collapsed tent was partially cleared off by the rescuers. It seems that the sheer quantity of blocky snow surrounding the tent, if thrown off by the rescuers would necessitate them stomping all over the top of the collapsed tent, yes?  Please advise. I still find reason to believe their collective misfortune came from the sky, delivered my a man made delivery system.

The rescue team dug a trench along the base of the tent (i don't know why but they did) and of course the snow on the tent was very hard so a good case for some blocks lying around. The stove wasn't used that night. The tent was pitched in it's low profile mode preventing the stove being used. That they had elected (i don't entertain the idea that they were lost) to camp on the ridge (without using the stove) instead of the forest (with using the stove) 800m away clearly indicates imo that they had a purpose for being there. Imo that purpose was to photograph the lightshow on the western ridge of which only Semyon's photos have reached us because they were missed in the confiscation that took place.

[Nigel Evans]

The snow accumulated on the tent assisted by winds and freezing temperatures.  Nothing complicated in the most plausible reason. There was no heat or blast from anything at the Tent.

One of us isn't getting it. The bodies were found under fresh snow that was SOFT yes? But the rescuers said that the area around the tent and on it was very HARD yes? Now ignoring the disputed hot spot and the footprints, the only way i know of to turn wind drift into wood in three weeks is to raise it's temperature and refreeze it. Koptelov in his interview states that they discussed this at the time. So the only natural way to do this is with the sun yes. But this is the north east slope in Siberia in Feb.

[sarapuk]

Thank you all for the discussion and intelligent threads. Curiosity is alive and well. To follow up on the crystalline snow thread, it seems possible that the tent stove, the ambient temperature or an aerial incindiary would be a heat source. I dislike the stove for the reason that the tent interior roof would be scorched. A change in ambient temp is certainly possible, even likely. I struggle with the observation that the tent fly was buried so deeply in rough snow. Rough, not winddrift snow.

 If I were in that situation and I experienced a distant flash and blast, I'd hunker down and wait. If I wait, I have enough time to put on a coat or boots. If that same detonation were very near me blowing chunks of snowy debris hitting the tent, I'd fear that the next blast would be in my lap. I would cut and run!

I understand that  snow chunks on a pitched tent would fall off. Later, when the tent buckled under the weight of snow much renained. The material on the collapsed tent was partially cleared off by the rescuers. It seems that the sheer quantity of blocky snow surrounding the tent, if thrown off by the rescuers would necessitate them stomping all over the top of the collapsed tent, yes?  Please advise. I still find reason to believe their collective misfortune came from the sky, delivered my a man made delivery system.

The rescue team dug a trench along the base of the tent (i don't know why but they did) and of course the snow on the tent was very hard so a good case for some blocks lying around. The stove wasn't used that night. The tent was pitched in it's low profile mode preventing the stove being used. That they had elected (i don't entertain the idea that they were lost) to camp on the ridge (without using the stove) instead of the forest (with using the stove) 800m away clearly indicates imo that they had a purpose for being there. Imo that purpose was to photograph the lightshow on the western ridge of which only Semyon's photos have reached us because they were missed in the confiscation that took place.

But would they really have put themselves in an exposed location in serious weather conditions just to take photos of some lights in the sky. I wouldnt have done that. and Iam sure many experienced outdoors people would say the same.

[sarapuk]

The snow accumulated on the tent assisted by winds and freezing temperatures.  Nothing complicated in the most plausible reason. There was no heat or blast from anything at the Tent.

One of us isn't getting it. The bodies were found under fresh snow that was SOFT yes? But the rescuers said that the area around the tent and on it was very HARD yes? Now ignoring the disputed hot spot and the footprints, the only way i know of to turn wind drift into wood in three weeks is to raise it's temperature and refreeze it. Koptelov in his interview states that they discussed this at the time. So the only natural way to do this is with the sun yes. But this is the north east slope in Siberia in Feb.

Yes thats possible but there are other possible explanations. We dont know the weather conditions for all the time that the Tent was in its position before it was found. Weather can change quickly and dramatically any where in the World.

[Nigel Evans]

The snow accumulated on the tent assisted by winds and freezing temperatures.  Nothing complicated in the most plausible reason. There was no heat or blast from anything at the Tent.

One of us isn't getting it. The bodies were found under fresh snow that was SOFT yes? But the rescuers said that the area around the tent and on it was very HARD yes? Now ignoring the disputed hot spot and the footprints, the only way i know of to turn wind drift into wood in three weeks is to raise it's temperature and refreeze it. Koptelov in his interview states that they discussed this at the time. So the only natural way to do this is with the sun yes. But this is the north east slope in Siberia in Feb.

Yes thats possible but there are other possible explanations. We dont know the weather conditions for all the time that the Tent was in its position before it was found. Weather can change quickly and dramatically any where in the World.

Thank you all for the discussion and intelligent threads. Curiosity is alive and well. To follow up on the crystalline snow thread, it seems possible that the tent stove, the ambient temperature or an aerial incindiary would be a heat source. I dislike the stove for the reason that the tent interior roof would be scorched. A change in ambient temp is certainly possible, even likely. I struggle with the observation that the tent fly was buried so deeply in rough snow. Rough, not winddrift snow.

 If I were in that situation and I experienced a distant flash and blast, I'd hunker down and wait. If I wait, I have enough time to put on a coat or boots. If that same detonation were very near me blowing chunks of snowy debris hitting the tent, I'd fear that the next blast would be in my lap. I would cut and run!

I understand that  snow chunks on a pitched tent would fall off. Later, when the tent buckled under the weight of snow much renained. The material on the collapsed tent was partially cleared off by the rescuers. It seems that the sheer quantity of blocky snow surrounding the tent, if thrown off by the rescuers would necessitate them stomping all over the top of the collapsed tent, yes?  Please advise. I still find reason to believe their collective misfortune came from the sky, delivered my a man made delivery system.

The rescue team dug a trench along the base of the tent (i don't know why but they did) and of course the snow on the tent was very hard so a good case for some blocks lying around. The stove wasn't used that night. The tent was pitched in it's low profile mode preventing the stove being used. That they had elected (i don't entertain the idea that they were lost) to camp on the ridge (without using the stove) instead of the forest (with using the stove) 800m away clearly indicates imo that they had a purpose for being there. Imo that purpose was to photograph the lightshow on the western ridge of which only Semyon's photos have reached us because they were missed in the confiscation that took place.

But would they really have put themselves in an exposed location in serious weather conditions just to take photos of some lights in the sky. I wouldnt have done that. and Iam sure many experienced outdoors people would say the same.

Igor's last entry in the diary considered exactly your point.

[Nigel Evans]

Yes thats possible but there are other possible explanations. We dont know the weather conditions for all the time that the Tent was in its position before it was found. Weather can change quickly and dramatically any where in the World.

Baby it's cold outside (in Siberia).
Corrie glaciers form in the Urals from 2 degrees further north - http://hydrologie.org/redbooks/a054/054042.pdf

[WAB]

Well its a good point you make.  Basically you are saying that the Authorities were wrong to let the Dyatlov Group go on the ROUTE that they did.  However its also possible that the Authorities made the right decision but something so profound happened that the Higher Authorities had to find a cover.

Both alternatives are possible. The problem is we only have ex post reference from Ivanov that the people from the Institute were somehow punished. We don't know what was the official reason. Also, the English transcipt is a little confusing, but looks relevant enough to be looked into further.

O`K. That can convince you that of Russian transcription all in the same way as in the English?
I can add to it, the punishment reason was that was necessary as that react on that indignation which was in the Sverdlovsk city at that time. Punishment was formal though had unpleasant parts for those whom in the biggest degree have punished. Very quickly all has been overcome also all people have returned on former positions. That "guilty" have wasted some time for progress was negative only and have spent many emotions and “nervous energy” for overcoming of these troubles.

[gypsy]

O`K. That can convince you that of Russian transcription all in the same way as in the English?
I can add to it, the punishment reason was that was necessary as that react on that indignation which was in the Sverdlovsk city at that time. Punishment was formal though had unpleasant parts for those whom in the biggest degree have punished. Very quickly all has been overcome also all people have returned on former positions. That "guilty" have wasted some time for progress was negative only and have spent many emotions and “nervous energy” for overcoming of these troubles.

Thank you for clarification. Too bad we do not have their testimonies about the case or the at least who gave the order for those formal punishments.

EDIT: And more importantly, who or which department was in charge of introduction the exclusion zone for next 3 years in the area.