Fact check - orientation of Nicolai's body in the ravine

[Nigel Evans]

I'm formulating a new theory for the DPI which i'll publish soon after i've drawn some pictures.
But first can anyone confirm or deny my assertion that Nicolai's body was lying in the opposite direction to Alexsander and Semyon?
I'm say that it was and the red line in this jpg is the back of his head?

 


The reason i need to confirm this is important to the theory and the 3D models contradict me - https://dyatlovpass.com/vasilii-zyadik

[Loose}{Cannon]

It pains me to say this, but you 'may' be correct. 

I have often wondered if he was face down over a boulder with arms extended over his head, as apposed to on his back with arms at his sides. 

[Nigel Evans]

It pains me to say this, but you 'may' be correct. 
 
I have often wondered if he was face down over a boulder with arms extended over his head, as apposed to on his back with arms at his sides.
Zooming in that looks like a head of hair to me.

[Morski]

Interesting. You may have a point. But if the red circle is the back of the head, what is this hump-like thing (the yellow) on the back? It looks strange as a shape.
Could it be the jacket full of running water?

[Nigel Evans]

Interesting. You may have a point. But if the red circle is the back of the head, what is this hump-like thing (the yellow) on the back? It looks strange as a shape.
Could it be the jacket full of running water?

Yes full of water, there being a drawstring at the waist that constricts the flow and hence bulges out the back of the jacket.

[Ehtnisba]

I'm formulating a new theory for the DPI which i'll publish soon after i've drawn some pictures.
But first can anyone confirm or deny my assertion that Nicolai's body was lying in the opposite direction to Alexsander and Semyon?
I'm say that it was and the red line in this jpg is the back of his head?

 


The reason i need to confirm this is important to the theory and the 3D models contradict me - https://dyatlovpass.com/vasilii-zyadik

Woow, yes!!! He is laying face down !!! I have always wondering where his head is and was thinking that this is the front of his hand on his chest. But this way didn't seem right at all ! I will draw it and add the drawing in my next post, cause it is really hard to be seen. But indeed you are right, only Zolotarev and Kolevatov are aligned.

[Clacon]

Somebody post a drawing!!!

When do we get to hear your theory, Nigel??

[Nigel Evans]

Somebody post a drawing!!!

When do we get to hear your theory, Nigel??

This week definitely. Hopefully worth the wait and no ball lightning isn't directly involved.

[Clacon]

Ermahgerrrdddd!

[Nigel Evans]

I'm formulating a new theory for the DPI which i'll publish soon after i've drawn some pictures.
But first can anyone confirm or deny my assertion that Nicolai's body was lying in the opposite direction to Alexsander and Semyon?
I'm say that it was and the red line in this jpg is the back of his head?

 


The reason i need to confirm this is important to the theory and the 3D models contradict me - https://dyatlovpass.com/vasilii-zyadik

Coming back to this as i've just realised something. If Nicolai was lying parallel to the other two (with his head obscured by fabric/water) then the visible part of his jacket would have to be the front of the jacket? But the autopsy records a zippered jacket. So the jacket in the photo has to be the back?
Update- 08/04/2019
Also the jacket was unfastened :-



Apologies if i'm labouring the point but Nicolai's orientation is crucial to the "crushed in the den theory".

[Clacon]

Hi Nigel - I highlighted what I think could possibly be the zipper.

[Nigel Evans]

Hi Nigel - I highlighted what I think could possibly be the zipper.

Looks like the edge of his arm/body?
See my update (08/04/2019) below.

[Radim]

Hello,
what about of snow burried.

They made the base next to the stream and the hole was quite deep.

[Nigel Evans]

Hello,
what about of snow burried.

They made the base next to the stream and the hole was quite deep.

You mean crushed by snow? I support the view that the snow cave = den was built in snow of a depth of 4m. WAB (who knows this area very well) disputes this depth and thinks more like 2m. Either way there isn't enough snow to create these injuries.

[Radim]

Thank you.

[Loose}{Cannon]

We literally have no idea how much snow was in the ravine the night they died. 

[Nigel Evans]

We literally have no idea how much snow was in the ravine the night they died.

Not exactly, we know that on 1st March they ordered 2.5m probes but never used them in the ravine until May due to it's depth.

And we know the depth of snow that covered the bodies elsewhere on the mountain between death and discovery (1m or less).
So it's reasonable i think to say if the ravine was on average 4m deep in March then it would have been on average 3m or more at the time of the event. Or alternatively using Tempalov's 2-6m, 1-5m at the time of the event.
So we can say i think with some certainty that the choices between snow cave and just a floor to insulate are both possible. WAB argues that the snow cave isn't possible but i don't see that, they would have had enough depth to create one.

[Loose}{Cannon]

Your assuming that snow collects at even depths at different locations and does not collect deeper in areas due to terrain and wind.   

[Nigel Evans]

Your assuming that snow collects at even depths at different locations and does not collect deeper in areas due to terrain and wind.

That was my argument against WAB's argument, i.e. wind drift is very variable. But he says not, that there wouldn't be any drift in the forest and hence the ravine.
The only measure of local snow in the three weeks is what fell on the bodies. The 2 Yuris had virtually no depth at all. So i'm being very generous with subtracting 1m?

[Clacon]

Just gently steering us back on topic...I really really believe that Nicolai is lying on his back - you can see his hands are palm down, his fingers curled inward.
I believe I can even see a circular item on his wrist that looks like a watch to me.

The left hand is lying on the lower belly and the right is beside him, both arms are bent inwards. I have no idea where his head is, I was thinking it was under the water and then it occurred to me it could be obscured or sort of nestled inside his open jacket?

This just seems to me to be the clearest orientation of his body...which would mean he is lying the same way as Kolevatov and Semyon in the ravine, right?

[Nigel Evans]

Just gently steering us back on topic...I really really believe that Nicolai is lying on his back - you can see his hands are palm down, his fingers curled inward.
I believe I can even see a circular item on his wrist that looks like a watch to me.

The left hand is lying on the lower belly and the right is beside him, both arms are bent inwards. I have no idea where his head is, I was thinking it was under the water and then it occurred to me it could be obscured or sort of nestled inside his open jacket?

This just seems to me to be the clearest orientation of his body...which would mean he is lying the same way as Kolevatov and Semyon in the ravine, right?

We'll have to agree to disagree 

[Clacon]

Aw come on!! I drew a picture and everything!!! 

[Loose}{Cannon]

If he is face down with arms extended, his palms would be down also.

[SimplyMadness]

You can see Tibo’s hand with one of his two watches being clearly visible. He is definitely laying on his back.

His jacket is filling up with water and covering his head.

I cut out the picture of his body at the evac area and cross referenced it to his body at the ravine. You can get a much better idea of how the body is oriented. 

[Nigel Evans]

Definitely lying on his front. That's the back of his jacket ballooning with water. The front had a zipper and was unfastened.

[Aspen]

If I may suggest, perhaps a review of the rescuers testimony is needed here.  I recall having read one of them on this site about the discovery of the ravine 4, and that rescuer said that the bodies of the 3 men were parallel and their heads pointing downstream.  So that would mean that Nicolai was lying on his back.  Possibly his head was covered by the jacket that was swollen with water? ...

(My apologies, I just don't remember whose testimony it was exactly, or which thread, otherwise I would provide the link.  Will try and look it up later.)

Also, I recall that the same rescuer said that their bodies were still frozen.  In one other photo of the body of Nicolai, after they removed him from the water, he is shown from the front with his arms by his side.  If his body was frozen at the time, they would not have been able to bend his arms down to his side if his arms been up above his head initially.  In that same photo Lyuda is laid face down beside Nicolai, and she still has her left arm up, presumably that is because her body is frozen and the rescuers were not able to fold down her arm.


One intriguing detail:  of the ravine 4, three are missing their eyes (Kolevatov, Zolotarev and Lyuda), but Nicolai appears to have intact eyes, although his head was under water when found.  On the other hand Kolevatov and Zolotarev looked like their head was above water.  So, why are their eyes missing but not Nicolai's?

[Nigel Evans]

If I may suggest, perhaps a review of the rescuers testimony is needed here.  I recall having read one of them on this site about the discovery of the ravine 4, and that rescuer said that the bodies of the 3 men were parallel and their heads pointing downstream.  So that would mean that Nicolai was lying on his back.  Possibly his head was covered by the jacket that was swollen with water? ...

(My apologies, I just don't remember whose testimony it was exactly, or which thread, otherwise I would provide the link.  Will try and look it up later.)

Also, I recall that the same rescuer said that their bodies were still frozen.  In one other photo of the body of Nicolai, after they removed him from the water, he is shown from the front with his arms by his side.  If his body was frozen at the time, they would not have been able to bend his arms down to his side if his arms been up above his head initially.  In that same photo Lyuda is laid face down beside Nicolai, and she still has her left arm up, presumably that is because her body is frozen and the rescuers were not able to fold down her arm.


One intriguing detail:  of the ravine 4, three are missing their eyes (Kolevatov, Zolotarev and Lyuda), but Nicolai appears to have intact eyes, although his head was under water when found.  On the other hand Kolevatov and Zolotarev looked like their head was above water.  So, why are their eyes missing but not Nicolai's?

The rescuers testimony is very variable, Askinadzi who discovered Lyudmila with a probe stated in a modern interview that the bodies were "an arms length" from the den not six metres as in the case files. The bodies could not be frozen if immersed in flowing water etc etc.
I'd much prefer discussing the photos...

[sarapuk]

We literally have no idea how much snow was in the ravine the night they died.

Not exactly, we know that on 1st March they ordered 2.5m probes but never used them in the ravine until May due to it's depth.

And we know the depth of snow that covered the bodies elsewhere on the mountain between death and discovery (1m or less).
So it's reasonable i think to say if the ravine was on average 4m deep in March then it would have been on average 3m or more at the time of the event. Or alternatively using Tempalov's 2-6m, 1-5m at the time of the event.
So we can say i think with some certainty that the choices between snow cave and just a floor to insulate are both possible. WAB argues that the snow cave isn't possible but i don't see that, they would have had enough depth to create one.

Pure speculation, like pure snow. And WAB's definition of a snow cave may simply be different from other peoples definition.

[sarapuk]

Your assuming that snow collects at even depths at different locations and does not collect deeper in areas due to terrain and wind.

That was my argument against WAB's argument, i.e. wind drift is very variable. But he says not, that there wouldn't be any drift in the forest and hence the ravine.
The only measure of local snow in the three weeks is what fell on the bodies. The 2 Yuris had virtually no depth at all. So i'm being very generous with subtracting 1m?

You mean you are being very generous with your speculation.

[sarapuk]

Just gently steering us back on topic...I really really believe that Nicolai is lying on his back - you can see his hands are palm down, his fingers curled inward.
I believe I can even see a circular item on his wrist that looks like a watch to me.

The left hand is lying on the lower belly and the right is beside him, both arms are bent inwards. I have no idea where his head is, I was thinking it was under the water and then it occurred to me it could be obscured or sort of nestled inside his open jacket?

This just seems to me to be the clearest orientation of his body...which would mean he is lying the same way as Kolevatov and Semyon in the ravine, right?

In a photo it looks like its a sideways position. Maybe body's moved. Maybe camera angle.