The ravine deaths - a theory

[Nigel Evans]

There's a question mark over how far they were found from the den. The case files say 6m but Askinadzi states in a recent interview they were just an arms length from the den. Guess who one of the signatures was on the case file!?

Here's the ravine location in correlation with the den. Note that another hole exists - the one with the question mark on it (which is not documented in the case files?).

I'd have to disagree, your "ravine" is the den and your "den" is of the 1metre layer they had to remove before they could get the poles to reach the bottom of the ravine. The case files talk of a depth of 4-4.5m.
But it's a great photo for showing the width of the ravine and that the bodies didn't have to travel transversely very far to be in the stream.

[GeneralFailure]

To me it seems that ravine is in the front, having one side without snow. See also this picture:


The den has all the sides surrounded by snow:

[Clacon]

Can someone draw the orientation of the ravine and den? How were they situated in relation to each other?

Because if the den is perpendicular to the ravine, they would have had to have been ejected out of the den into the ravine somehow, right? If they had been crushed inside the den, how would they have moved forward and then sideways down the ravine (at a right angle)?

Nigel - well done on thinking outside the box! :)))
Don't you think perhaps if this was the case then the twigs/branches on the ground inside the den would have been crushed to smithereens?? How are they intact?

The theory that they fell into the ravine from above as they were walking/running along because the running water underneath created a weak spot (from below) makes the most sense to me....although the fact that three bodies are lying perpendicular to the ravine is strange - unless they were walking perpendicularily to the ravine instead of along and above it, hit the weakspot and fell.
(APOLOGIES - Thinking and typing out loud here....)
If the den is on the same ground level as the ravine, though - I don't think this one works.

About the critters eating eyeballs and a tongue....I was reading previous forum posts and have come to believe that if they were buried under snow and their faces were in running water after the thaw, then the flesh and eyeballs were consumed by microbes in the water - I think the term was "microbial activity". All sorts of weird things happen to tissue when it is submerged in water. Dubinina's mouth was open I suppose, which is why her tongue was missing. Also she seemed to have her whole head submerged and in the flow of water, while the others lay with the backs of their heads facing the flow.
Although....I read somewhere the muscle floor anchoring Dubinina's tongue was ripped out - in the autopsy it vaguely only says her tongue was missing - so if the former is true, then it was a little critter that ripped it out with some force...if the tongue was just gone with no muscle floor with it - then either she but her own tongue off or it was microbial activity.
About the eyeballs - there is evidence in the autopsies of missing tissue along the brow bones which maybe could account for animal activity.....or microbial activity since I think little teeth or beaks may have left  traces in the bone (scratches)??

[Nigel Evans]

To me it seems that ravine is in the front, having one side without snow. See also this picture:


The den has all the sides surrounded by snow:

My perspective is, there are three men standing the den? The rest of the photo is of the ravine?

[Loose}{Cannon]

The three men appear yo be standing where the bodies were found.  The 'den' is the 4 sided hole behind them. 

[GeneralFailure]

@ Nigel Evans - You are right, the entire "valley" is the ravine, but when I wrote "ravine" I was referring specifically to the place where the bodies were found in the water.
So the three men are standing in the place they've found the four bodies.
In the back is the hole where they've found the bed of small trees/clothes(I've called this hole "den").
@ Loose}{Cannon , it seems that I was typing slower than you :)

[Loose}{Cannon]

Where the guy is squatting is where the bodies were drug out to.    In this pic, the bodies and where the three men were standing is to the right. 

[Nigel Evans]

Can someone draw the orientation of the ravine and den? How were they situated in relation to each other?This guy has attempted this and he's a bit closer to the DP than me :) - https://dyatlovpass.com/vasilii-zyadikBut i think he's placed the den on the wrong side of the stream and NTB is facing the other way.

Because if the den is perpendicular to the ravine, they would have had to have been ejected out of the den into the ravine somehow, right? If they had been crushed inside the den, how would they have moved forward and then sideways down the ravine (at a right angle)?Haven't i answered this in posts #25 thru #29?

Nigel - well done on thinking outside the box! :)))I take a bow 

Don't you think perhaps if this was the case then the twigs/branches on the ground inside the den would have been crushed to smithereens?? How are they intact?But rib cages are even more fragile? The "crushing" was only 30cm wide, the den floor 1 sq metre?

The theory that they fell into the ravine from above as they were walking/running along because the running water underneath created a weak spot (from below) makes the most sense to me....although the fact that three bodies are lying perpendicular to the ravine is strange - unless they were walking perpendicularily to the ravine instead of along and above it, hit the weakspot and fell.
(APOLOGIES - Thinking and typing out loud here....)
If the den is on the same ground level as the ravine, though - I don't think this one works.No it doesn't work, the den is in the ravine.

About the critters eating eyeballs and a tongue....I was reading previous forum posts and have come to believe that if they were buried under snow and their faces were in running water after the thaw, then the flesh and eyeballs were consumed by microbes in the water - I think the term was "microbial activity". All sorts of weird things happen to tissue when it is submerged in water. Dubinina's mouth was open I suppose, which is why her tongue was missing. Also she seemed to have her whole head submerged and in the flow of water, while the others lay with the backs of their heads facing the flow.
Although....I read somewhere the muscle floor anchoring Dubinina's tongue was ripped out - in the autopsy it vaguely only says her tongue was missing - so if the former is true, then it was a little critter that ripped it out with some force...if the tongue was just gone with no muscle floor with it - then either she but her own tongue off or it was microbial activity.
About the eyeballs - there is evidence in the autopsies of missing tissue along the brow bones which maybe could account for animal activity.....or microbial activity since I think little teeth or beaks may have left  traces in the bone (scratches)??Some posters have complained about the lack of detail wrt the tongue. The thyroid area had unusual mobility (crushing?) so it's plausible perhaps that the whole tongue could easily detach. But really a question for medical experts.

[GeneralFailure]

The thyroid area had unusual mobility (crushing?) so it's plausible perhaps that the whole tongue could easily detach.

The hyoid bone fracture is a very rare fracture of the hyoid bone, accounting for 0.002% of all fractures in humans. It is commonly associated with strangulation and rarely occurs in isolation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyoid_bone_fracture

[Loose}{Cannon]

Where does it state the hyoid bone was fractured?

[Nigel Evans]

No one had a fractured hyoid bone.

[GeneralFailure]

My mistake, it was thyrohyal of "extraordinary mobility" https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-355-357?rbid=17743

Does this "extraordinary mobility" means fracture?

Medical Definition of thyrohyal
: the larger and more lateral of the two lateral projections on each side of the human hyoid bone
— called also greater cornu
https://www.merriam-webster.com/medical/thyrohyal

[Loose}{Cannon]

No...   it had mobility.  What would you expect from a rotten corps?

[sarapuk]

Are you serious. The Theories seem to be getting a little bit wild. What Rodents are supposed to have been involved in that predation ? And why didnt they go for other bodies ? No Military vehicles were involved in the demise of the Dyatlov Group. Ball Lightning is not known to have had similar affects against people.

Which theory is wild? The crushed under the snow theory or the rodent theory? If they died under the snow what else would the predation be?

If it had have been anywhere else of a more shall we say flat landscape and maybe a bit nearer to one of the Soviet Military Camps, I would have said yes a real possibility that such Military vehicles could be operating. But then I would say if it was an accident then why didnt those Military vehicles stop and assist the injured  !  ?  And of course such big vehicles would leave TRACKS and probably plenty of OIL traces. This is a wild Theory is it not. And also crushed under snow sounds a bit iffy. Rodents, I have just Posted something else where about Rodents being responsible for some damage to bodies. Why didnt the Rodents eat other body parts and other members of the Dyatlov group.

[sarapuk]

If they were sitting/laying on said surface of twigs and clothing, then they were at the same depth/layer. 

I don't buy it.  Everything including the floor would have moved.

Well there is a gradient :-



Some of the photos of the den are clearly "reconstructed". But if this photo is "as originally discovered" then i think it supports my case as the seats have clearly been flattened and pushed towards the right. The argument would be that the bodies would offer much more resistance and travel right much further (i'm assuming the stream is to the right).

Not much of a Den is it. If in deed it was a Den  !  ? And it looks like it has been like that for many months ie no movement. 

[sarapuk]

I'm arguing for "snow creep" and "snow glide" but transversely across the ravine's gradient which will be amplified by the stream removing compacted snow at the bottom.
http://www.risknet-alcotra.org/rna/allegati/holler-1_641.pdf

Another link to a scientific paper that most people wont get their head around or have time to learn. And I notice it uses a massive area of Mountain slope to do the analysis, nothing like the Ravine that we are concerned with  !  ? 

[sarapuk]

There's a question mark over how far they were found from the den. The case files say 6m but Askinadzi states in a recent interview they were just an arms length from the den. Guess who one of the signatures was on the case file!?

Here's the ravine location in correlation with the den. Note that another hole exists - the one with the question mark on it (which is not documented in the case files?).

This is another photo that shows just what an insignificant physical feature the so called Ravine is. And the so called Den is just as minor a physical feature. Ive seen bigger physical features in Sussex, England and not called Ravines. 

[sarapuk]

No one had a fractured hyoid bone.

And I quote you ; ''Her neck receives sufficient down force that it dislocates the thyroid area of the throat.'' But if there was such force involved why no BROKEN BONES, why no broken neck etc.

[GeneralFailure]

No...   it had mobility.  What would you expect from a rotten corps?

Well, it is written "extraordinary" mobility. If it was "ordinary" mobility then it would not be in the report I think.

p.s. It seems that Russians have an affinity to hyoid bone and suspect deaths : https://en.crimerussia.com/gromkie-dela/us-expert-on-russian-former-press-minister-death-i-ve-never-seen-a-fractured-hyoid-bone-on-someone-w/

[Loose}{Cannon]

Why didnt the Rodents eat other body parts and other members of the Dyatlov group.

Eyeballs and tongue are easy pickings as apposed to frozen skin and bone.  You also forget that some body parts of certain victims were likely SUBMERGED in water and otherwise unreachable.   

[Nigel Evans]

No one had a fractured hyoid bone.

And I quote you ; ''Her neck receives sufficient down force that it dislocates the thyroid area of the throat.'' But if there was such force involved why no BROKEN BONES, why no broken neck etc.

The neck area of the spine is protected by strong muscle groups but the throat isn't would be my answer.

[Nigel Evans]

Why didnt the Rodents eat other body parts and other members of the Dyatlov group.

Eyeballs and tongue are easy pickings as apposed to frozen skin and bone.  You also forget that some body parts of certain victims were likely SUBMERGED in water and otherwise unreachable.

Also there might have been a limited window of time for easy "pickings", once the stream developed some flow the rodents might have been unable to reach the bodies without being swept downstream.

[Nigel Evans]

This is another photo that shows just what an insignificant physical feature the so called Ravine is. And the so called Den is just as minor a physical feature. Ive seen bigger physical features in Sussex, England and not called Ravines.

Yes it's just a few metres deep. "Ravine" is to somewhat overstate it, but it's the label that everyone understands.

[sarapuk]

No...   it had mobility.  What would you expect from a rotten corps?

Well, it is written "extraordinary" mobility. If it was "ordinary" mobility then it would not be in the report I think.

p.s. It seems that Russians have an affinity to hyoid bone and suspect deaths : https://en.crimerussia.com/gromkie-dela/us-expert-on-russian-former-press-minister-death-i-ve-never-seen-a-fractured-hyoid-bone-on-someone-w/

Well found. An interesting article thats useful for this forum. One of My chief areas of suspicion is around the subject of Dubinina's Hyoid Bone. Apparently its one of the toughest bones in the Human body.

[sarapuk]

Why didnt the Rodents eat other body parts and other members of the Dyatlov group.

Eyeballs and tongue are easy pickings as apposed to frozen skin and bone.  You also forget that some body parts of certain victims were likely SUBMERGED in water and otherwise unreachable.

But there were 9 bodies. They werent all submerged in water or covered over. And what type of Rodent are we talking about, one that swims under water to eat its prey  !  ?

[sarapuk]

No one had a fractured hyoid bone.

And I quote you ; ''Her neck receives sufficient down force that it dislocates the thyroid area of the throat.'' But if there was such force involved why no BROKEN BONES, why no broken neck etc.

The neck area of the spine is protected by strong muscle groups but the throat isn't would be my answer.

So you mean a DOWNFORCE that is concentrated on the throat and presumably the Chest as well. Sounds feasible. But not by snow. And then again how did the Tongue go missing  !  ?

[sarapuk]

Why didnt the Rodents eat other body parts and other members of the Dyatlov group.

Eyeballs and tongue are easy pickings as apposed to frozen skin and bone.  You also forget that some body parts of certain victims were likely SUBMERGED in water and otherwise unreachable.

Also there might have been a limited window of time for easy "pickings", once the stream developed some flow the rodents might have been unable to reach the bodies without being swept downstream.

Yes and what type of rodent swims under water to eat its prey.

[sarapuk]

This is another photo that shows just what an insignificant physical feature the so called Ravine is. And the so called Den is just as minor a physical feature. Ive seen bigger physical features in Sussex, England and not called Ravines.

Yes it's just a few metres deep. "Ravine" is to somewhat overstate it, but it's the label that everyone understands.

Yes I guess so. Gulley would have been a better description, and its less dramatic sounding. In fact its usual, in order of size etc,  to have a GULLEY then a RAVINE then a CANYON. All those features can have running water or not as the case may be.

[Nigel Evans]

Just to add to the theory, it would be reasonable that if the other three had heard the vehicle going up the ravine they would investigate, realise the den had collapsed and try and dig out their friends. From their avalanche knowledge they would know that under the snow you can breathe for minutes but CO2 poisoning sets in quickly. So this could explain the hand injuries and why none of the ravine four demonstrated signs of asphyxiation.

[Star man]

I think the injuries are more easily explained by a fall from height.  Lyuda looks like she has fallen flat on her front, whilst not conscious.  Her chest is smashed, but her nose cartilage is also smashed, and the force on the top of the rib cage and throat could explain the hyoid bone.  It seems more likely than a vehicle driving over them.

Also rodents do tent to be more prevalent near to water sources like streams and rivers, so you would expect more rodent activity in the ravine than on the slope.

Regards

Star man