December 08, 2019, 01:01:25 AM
Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: Elk(s) attack  (Read 5643 times)

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April 11, 2019, 03:24:02 AM
Reply #60

Radim

Guest
Teddy is trying to say you that you are looking at PIECE of a photo which is no more than 1cm, these dark things in the edges are film holes . If you film a person from 1m he will be around 1,5 from the negative. Here we are seing objects that are 0 .5mm of the whole photo. So if you photograph the Eiffel Tower and it apoears as 0 .5 mm object in your photo,that means you are photographing it from an airplane .
Your two persons have to be more than 500m away to appear so small,and flashlight cannot light them that far.
The object is not a flat flashlight but a physical hole in the film.

Yes, I see...you have a true.
This is not flashlight but the hole in film negative.

April 11, 2019, 03:29:31 AM
Reply #61

Radim

Guest
Teddy is trying to say you that you are looking at PIECE of a photo which is no more than 1cm, these dark things in the edges are film holes . If you film a person from 1m he will be around 1,5 from the negative. Here we are seing objects that are 0 .5mm of the whole photo. So if you photograph the Eiffel Tower and it apoears as 0 .5 mm object in your photo,that means you are photographing it from an airplane .
Your two persons have to be more than 500m away to appear so small,and flashlight cannot light them that far.
The object is not a flat flashlight but a physical hole in the film.

Is possible that the visibility of objects is caused by invert color agains the backround?
How will look a photo at night, if somebody will be polluted by snow and will be flash by flashlight from any distance..?

April 11, 2019, 03:34:00 AM
Reply #62

Radim

Guest
Teddy is trying to say you that you are looking at PIECE of a photo which is no more than 1cm, these dark things in the edges are film holes . If you film a person from 1m he will be around 1,5 from the negative. Here we are seing objects that are 0 .5mm of the whole photo. So if you photograph the Eiffel Tower and it apoears as 0 .5 mm object in your photo,that means you are photographing it from an airplane .
Your two persons have to be more than 500m away to appear so small,and flashlight cannot light them that far.
The object is not a flat flashlight but a physical hole in the film.

Is possible that the visibility of objects is caused by invert color agains the backround?
How will look a photo at night, if somebody will be polluted by snow and will be flash by flashlight from any distance..?


I guess you are photogrraph so it is the reason why I ask you.

April 11, 2019, 03:37:27 AM
Reply #63

Radim

Guest
Can be also possible that this pictures are already editored? Or you think this pictures are originals?

April 11, 2019, 03:53:49 AM
Reply #64

Radim

Guest
That is tons of imagination, Radim  vroom1
What bothers me, elks or no elks, is why would someone just take the time to make photos in the middle of the night, in what seems to be a dire situation?

Hard to say, every human is different, im not a psychologist.
People are able to makes photos during dire situations also.

maybe?


April 11, 2019, 04:27:27 AM
Reply #65
Offline

Morski


It seems more plausible, that those frames are not edited, and are the result of damaged film. I am not sure what are the technical capabilities of the Zorky (if I remember correctly) camera to make photos during the night with no additional source of light. The moon was 42% visible during the night of 1st of February, which is hardly a good source of light IMO. 
I am not a psychologist either, but I can hardly imagine, that any of the Dyatlov group took time to make photos after the start of the event, that forced them to leave the tent and eventually led to their demise. I think they had other priorities by that time. 

April 11, 2019, 04:34:52 AM
Reply #66

Radim

Guest
It seems more plausible, that those frames are not edited, and are the result of damaged film. I am not sure what are the technical capabilities of the Zorky (if I remember correctly) camera to make photos during the night with no additional source of light. The moon was 42% visible during the night of 1st of February, which is hardly a good source of light IMO. 
I am not a psychologist either, but I can hardly imagine, that any of the Dyatlov group took time to make photos after the start of the event, that forced them to leave the tent and eventually led to their demise. I think they had other priorities by that time.

thank you for your point.
 

April 11, 2019, 05:54:31 AM
Reply #67

Radim

Guest
Correction of 11) no idea:

In left part and right part I see a print, behind the white scratch is some pile.

It can disprove previous pictures with white scratches..

April 11, 2019, 06:03:43 AM
Reply #68

Radim

Guest
Corection of No 6)
Dark object behind the white scratch.

White light points will really be just a scratches on film negative

April 11, 2019, 07:17:20 AM
Reply #69
Offline

Ehtnisba


Oh, no i am not at all a photographer. Only saying that objects are really really small and thus must be very far in distance. What I wonder is ,is it possible a flashlight to reach an object that is too far in the distance. Usually normal flashlights don't reach very far . So if anyone know lets say.
Those photos were examined by Yakimenko ,I think, and he supposes those are lightening objects in the sky,emitting their own light and very far from the spectacular .

April 11, 2019, 07:58:25 AM
Reply #70

Radim

Guest
Teddy is trying to say you that you are looking at PIECE of a photo which is no more than 1cm, these dark things in the edges are film holes . If you film a person from 1m he will be around 1,5 from the negative. Here we are seing objects that are 0 .5mm of the whole photo. So if you photograph the Eiffel Tower and it apoears as 0 .5 mm object in your photo,that means you are photographing it from an airplane .
Your two persons have to be more than 500m away to appear so small,and flashlight cannot light them that far.
The object is not a flat flashlight but a physical hole in the film.

Thank you for your point.
I quite like your thought processes...

Do you think if the film negative face for longer time to humidity, can it make "some" edge surface which could highlight some certain shapes  which could normally stay overshadowed?

April 11, 2019, 08:37:03 AM
Reply #71
Offline

Ehtnisba


Photos turned in negatives:























random coin flip generator

April 11, 2019, 09:00:04 AM
Reply #72

Radim

Guest
Photos turned in negatives:


Thank you very very much. I very appreciate.



April 11, 2019, 10:44:05 AM
Reply #73

Radim

Guest


This is picture no 7)

Sorry for bad quality - I cannot work with Corell draw so efectively.

However, I changed just some fades, buzz, etc.

April 11, 2019, 10:46:45 AM
Reply #74

Radim

Guest
maybe Im a little bit mental destroyed :)
But I see there elk.

April 11, 2019, 10:54:27 AM
Reply #75

Radim

Guest

April 11, 2019, 11:16:44 AM
Reply #76

Radim

Guest
Question:
Had Zolotaryov front or especially right part of torso wounds? Why right? Because of following picture of horn

April 11, 2019, 12:37:58 PM
Reply #77
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Does anybody know if this pictures are real or fakes?

https://dyatlovpass.com/camera-zolotaryov

As far as we know they are real.

Have you ever submitted a "Rorszach test"?

What is that supposed to mean  ! ?
DB

April 11, 2019, 12:40:18 PM
Reply #78
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Does anybody know if this pictures are real or fakes?

https://dyatlovpass.com/camera-zolotaryov

As far as we know they are real.



Have you ever submitted a "Rorszach test"?

When I was in military and we have to made the psychologist tests, we also made a "rorszach" test everytime.
Military psychologist recognized besides according "Rorszach test" our maturity, rationality and retreats. (Maybe other things). Who criticaly failed this test then he usually was not admitted in recco team.

Try to see at this pictures and tell me what do you see...



I will try to describe the pictures according my

I see photos that have been ENLARGED.
DB

April 11, 2019, 12:43:27 PM
Reply #79
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
If the bodies were faced by heavy hypothermy, than probably were not present significant bruises.


If their faced by 400-700kgs weigh elk, than the mechanism of injuries really can be very similar like an car crash. How the coroner mentioned in report-Internal bodies injuries.

This elk teory says that elk killed nobody - he just caused the injuries and probably not to all of Dyatlavov members. Elk was "just"  the reason of time which they had to spent in nature without clothes. (probably excluding Dubininova and head injured teammate).

Coroner also got just a frozen bodies, in reports there is no mentionted that he was present at place (in mountines) - he probalby did not examinate the bodies at place but in the morgue.

So it can be the reason why the coroners could not accurately determine the real mechanism of injury. According their profesional experiences they compare the mechanism of injuries to car crash accidents - which they knew very well.

I also think that some of injuries could be caused during the dragging of frozen bodies on snow by rescuers. "COnfusion bruises".


And dont forget that it is 60 years ago. They had not any DNA proceduress any criminalised technics with high tech equpment like today.

I think the Dyatlavov pass coroners made a very good job whereas how bad they had an informations.

If an Elk or Elks attacked and caused injuries similar to a car crash then why no EXTERNAL traces, ie, NO SKIN OR MUSCLE DAMAGE to the Ravine bodies  !  ?

If you check the photo of Zinas deadbody, you can see some inpurity on her trousers. Many people say that it is grass. I dont think so. I will try to explain why:

1) grass in heavy snow area is unusual
2) Grass is soft - This "grass" on her trousers is too short and straight - hard material
3) The grass is visible only on her right hip (buttock)
4) distance dispersion of the "grass" is unusual (at one place it is very clustered, in lower position quite sparse)
5) This "grass" is stucked in trousers - it is not on surface

In my opinion this is not a grass, but elks hairs.

According your point about dead bodies in ravine. There are nowhere more detailed pictures of dead bodies or directly from ravine. This is very hard to say.
The whole chaos and whole Daytlavovs mystery is according my opinion caused by unprofessional "crime scene" documentation. 



We cant tell from just looking at the photo. And if it was Elk Hair then surely this would have been important enough to be mentioned in the Autopsy Report.

In autopsy there are any known points of clothes recognization of any Dyatlavov pass member. I think this job is for criminalist technic. (Who was not presented at place).
 


Not sure what you mean here  !  ?  I put it that if an Elk caused such internal injuries we would also see plenty of external injuries on the same bodies, ie, broken skin and muscle damage.
DB

April 11, 2019, 12:45:39 PM
Reply #80
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient


As I say - I find it difficult to believe there was no tissue bruising - unless the blood froze before it could seep into the tissue. But this is something only an experienced cold weather coroner would know.

I dont know - Im not coroner.
[/quote]

I find it difficult to believe that there was no skin or muscle damage after an alleged attack by an ELK.  !  ? 
DB

April 11, 2019, 12:48:48 PM
Reply #81
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Picture
Cameraman is also flashlight holder.


no 1) Flashlight is heading front to camera. Visible lens scratches. Three fingers down of photo. (black objects) - Just a panic photo.

no 2) Laying person on his/her right side.Scrumbled possition. Face is well visibled. Face is looking to cameraman. Distance from cameraman - circa 4,5m

no 3) Scrumbled person turned to left side from very close distance of cameraman. On the picture we can see a backs of person. Distance from cameraman - circa 1,5m.

no 4) Two person - Standing and layed .Standing body is inclined to laying body. Coat overlap on standing body is presented. Diagonal line from 1/3 left to 1/3 right corner presented - footprinted path. Around this bodies are spotted next 3 white dots - probably hikers or very deep prints. Well presented a fingerprint on camera len.

no 5) NO idea

no 6) Flashlight is shinig to 2 moving persons heading to cameraman. The shining black object in right down corner is a flat shape flashlight. One person is carring in arms another person. Wound person is holding rescuers kneck or the wounded is carring on rescuers backs. Diagonal edge (snow footprint path) is still presented. Persons from picture no 4.


no 7) Panic photo - same situation like picture no 1)

no 8) Elks left horn circa 1m from cameraman. Fingertprint on lent again presented. High grass presented.


no 9) Picture returned to 180 degrees. Flashlight is shining to air. Flashlight is laying on hard ice surface. Light scattering effect on ice surface. Bushes or high grass presented.

no 10) Two people. One is trying to lift second one to A/B position (refer the A/B transport position). Diagonal edge is not presented. Probably was the photo catched from kontra side than no 4 and 6.


no 11) NO idea.

A very vivid imagination.

« Last Edit: April 11, 2019, 01:03:20 PM by sarapuk »
DB

April 11, 2019, 12:50:51 PM
Reply #82
Offline

sarapuk

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« Last Edit: April 11, 2019, 01:04:14 PM by sarapuk »
DB

April 11, 2019, 12:52:22 PM
Reply #83
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Please note that the images from https://dyatlovpass.com/camera-zolotaryov, besides the first frame, are very small fragments of the actual photo. You can scale by the procket holes visible on scans 2 and 6.



   

Teddy,
sorry to say that, but your point is absolutely out of point. If you will make a picture from 100 m distance of Eifel tower, than you will try to say me that it is 1 cm width??

Im sorry to say again. But I will not reply for silly points.


Teddy has made a very sensible statement.
DB

April 11, 2019, 12:55:01 PM
Reply #84
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
It seems more plausible, that those frames are not edited, and are the result of damaged film. I am not sure what are the technical capabilities of the Zorky (if I remember correctly) camera to make photos during the night with no additional source of light. The moon was 42% visible during the night of 1st of February, which is hardly a good source of light IMO. 
I am not a psychologist either, but I can hardly imagine, that any of the Dyatlov group took time to make photos after the start of the event, that forced them to leave the tent and eventually led to their demise. I think they had other priorities by that time.

Definitely more likely to be damage to film caused in whatever way.
DB

April 11, 2019, 12:57:43 PM
Reply #85
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
maybe Im a little bit mental destroyed :)
But I see there elk.

Extremely vivid imagination. I dont see any thing out of the ordinary. I see potential film damage.
DB

April 11, 2019, 01:34:54 PM
Reply #86

Radim

Guest
« Last Edit: April 11, 2019, 02:47:37 PM by Radim »

April 11, 2019, 01:36:07 PM
Reply #87

Radim

Guest

April 11, 2019, 02:06:42 PM
Reply #88

Radim

Guest
In all of posts there are only three people who were acquisition for me.
Ehtnisba and hardheaded Teddy, because of their disprove point of flashlight in one of our pictures.
And Морски  who told us that was 42% of Moon visibility - good light conditions. Based on Морски point I decided to edit the photos in Corell draw.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2019, 02:48:51 PM by Radim »

April 11, 2019, 02:12:01 PM
Reply #89

Radim

Guest
Question:
Had Zolotaryov front or especially right part of torso wounds? Why right? Because of following picture of horn

I will make ownanswer because nobody is probably to make the answer:
Yes I think the running elk who was hit him from front side, could caused thease wounds according Zolotaryov pictures..

Or not?
Go and break this point.