Unanswered Questions

[mk]

Every time I read over the story, I have more unanswered questions. Loose threads that don't fit anywhere.  Today I'm wondering:

Why did Dyatlov fail to file the appropriate papers for the planned route?  It was generally known where they were headed, but the specifics were missing when the rescue crew searched the file to determine exactly where to look.  Merely an oversight, or something else?

Why did Dyatlov tell Yudin that he thought they'd be a little later than intended coming back?  I don't remember anything up to that point which had delayed them.  They weren't even half-way through the journey, but Dyatlov already thought they might be late.  Why?

Why were there pieces of clothing on the branches of the cedar tree?  And what pieces were they, exactly?  How big?  Did they get torn off when someone scrambled down? Did someone throw them up there?  If so, why on earth go to that trouble? 

Why, why, why were they off course?  Did they decide to climb Kholat Syakhl--at that time of the afternoon?  (Why?) Were they trying to avoid something at/in Dyatlov Pass?  Did Dyatlov think it would be an easier route?  Were their compasses reading wrong or inaccessible for some reason?

The answers may have nothing to do with the mystery of why they perished, of course.   And yet I keep hoping that the correct conclusion will provide appropriate answers to these and all the rest of the niggling questions.

[Teddy]

Every time I read over the story, I have more unanswered questions. Loose threads that don't fit anywhere.  Today I'm wondering:

Why did Dyatlov fail to file the appropriate papers for the planned route?  It was generally known where they were headed, but the specifics were missing when the rescue crew searched the file to determine exactly where to look.  Merely an oversight, or something else?

Why did Dyatlov tell Yudin that he thought they'd be a little later than intended coming back?  I don't remember anything up to that point which had delayed them.  They weren't even half-way through the journey, but Dyatlov already thought they might be late.  Why?

Why were there pieces of clothing on the branches of the cedar tree?  And what pieces were they, exactly?  How big?  Did they get torn off when someone scrambled down? Did someone throw them up there?  If so, why on earth go to that trouble? 

Why, why, why were they off course?  Did they decide to climb Kholat Syakhl--at that time of the afternoon?  (Why?) Were they trying to avoid something at/in Dyatlov Pass?  Did Dyatlov think it would be an easier route?  Were their compasses reading wrong or inaccessible for some reason?

The answers may have nothing to do with the mystery of why they perished, of course.   And yet I keep hoping that the correct conclusion will provide appropriate answers to these and all the rest of the niggling questions.

I do have a well of questions myself, but not the ones you are listing. Dyatlov did file a route, the UPI sport's club would not have allowed him to go if he didn't. The reason rescuers were looking for thei location was that didn't expect them to have perished so early in the trek.  They thought that the group must have had problem after Otorten. See the maps at http://dyatlov-pass.com/ the first one and the Google map - you check and uncheck the planned and actual route to see the difference. It was well known where they were going. As for why they veered this is another matter all together.

They started very late on Feb 1 and covered only 2.5 miles. Maybe it was late and they decided to pitch the tent where they did. I do not believe they were lost although last photos suggest poor visibility.

Why Dyatlov said to Yudin that they might be late - this is very normal. They were very slow, easily distracted. The entire length of the planned route was 180 km. The
goal was to be back in Vizhay by February 12 and then in Sverdlovsk a couple of days later, on about February 14 or 15. An alternative route from the storage depot up to the Poyasovy crag and its slope, and then to continue moving in a southerly direction to another mountain, Oykachakhl 1322 - the south point of their route, from which they could go east back to Vizhay, and from where they had promised to send a telegram. To me it sounds very plausible to expect a delay of 2-3 days.

Re the cedar tree - the branches were broken up to 5 m high suggesting that hikers had climbed up to look for something, perhaps the camp. Forensic tests later confirmed that traces of skin were found embedded in the bark indicating that the pair had frantically attempted to climb the tree snapping off branches until their hands were mass of pulpy flesh.

[Lyndasez]

MK is correct Igor handed over 2 of 3 documents required....for the trip. Notably the mapping.

“The question arose about the organization of the rescue expedition, but immediately it became clear that none of the sports management at the level of UPI and the city does not have exact information about the route of the group Dyatlov. This was a gross violation of the organization of tourist trips. The necessary information began to be feverishly reconstructed from the stories of people who heard about the plans from the members of the missing group. The situation was saved by a completely foreign sport club "Politech" man - Ignaty Fokich Ryagin, a friend of the Kolevatov family, who talked extensively with Alexander about the forthcoming campaign in mid-January. Ryagin recalled the route of the group from memory and on February 19, Rimma Kolevatova, Alexander's sister, handed over the card to Colonel Georgy Ortyukov, a tactics instructor from the UPI military department, who led the search for the group in those February days, and subsequently put a lot of effort into clarifying the history of the Djatlov group.”

[Loose}{Cannon]

Why did Dyatlov fail to file the appropriate papers for the planned route?  It was generally known where they were headed, but the specifics were missing when the rescue crew searched the file to determine exactly where to look.  Merely an oversight, or something else?

Great question!

As Lyndasez says, He partially turned in the required documents.  I dont know if this was something that could have been done after the trip and it was common to overlook incomplete pretrip documents or not. Did Igor intentionally do this? Did he have a motive to purposefully leave the UPI with incomplete information about the trip, or was it a simple mistake? Why was the group permitted to start the trip without having all required documents filed with the university? 

Why did Dyatlov tell Yudin that he thought they'd be a little later than intended coming back?  I don't remember anything up to that point which had delayed them.  They weren't even half-way through the journey, but Dyatlov already thought they might be late.  Why?

I would have to agree with what the others have said. They were beginning to fall behind due to what could have been several factors, but most notably due to heavy/deep snow that was slow to navigate through.... this is well documented in their own photos.  I also agree that that this would be a normal occurrence for a trips total time to need adjusted due to unforeseeable circumstances.


 

Why were there pieces of clothing on the branches of the cedar tree?  And what pieces were they, exactly?  How big?  Did they get torn off when someone scrambled down? Did someone throw them up there?  If so, why on earth go to that trouble? 

I cannot say I have ever heard/read about items of clothing being 'in' the tree.  Can you provide the source for this information?

Why, why, why were they off course?  Did they decide to climb Kholat Syakhl--at that time of the afternoon?  (Why?) Were they trying to avoid something at/in Dyatlov Pass?  Did Dyatlov think it would be an easier route?  Were their compasses reading wrong or inaccessible for some reason?

Why they were off course is also a great question.  I tend to believe it was a calculated adjustment of the route done by Igor and the group specifically to avoid the deep snow in the wooded valleys that was causing them to fall behind schedule to begin with.

In reference to "avoiding something in the pass itself.... from where they set off that day, I believe it was impossible to even see the pass. They basically had to climb the back side of a wooded ridge with a dual camels hump at the top. They could take a route in which would have them go through the dip on the right (D pass) and continue through deep wooded valley snow, or shift to the left dip and ski down hill around the Kholat Syakhl slope. of course, this would have set them up to go through a dif N/S valley running parallel to the originally intended route, but ultimately land them back on the original route.  I may take the site map and draw in my idea of where the altered route would have been and where it would have rejoined the original.  I do however find it interesting that the ravine 4 were found exact back on the original intended route.

[Lyndasez]

“Why they were off course is also a great question.”

I read that Igor would stop and question the mansi as to the best way to go...they told him to follow their trail along the river... think they veered off due to the weather and decided to camp. Iirc.

[Loose}{Cannon]

That would also indicate to me there was a certain level of flexibility in their route filed with the university and it would likely be finalized upon their return. This would explain why the 3rd document was never submitted.  I would assume the entire reason for submitting these forms would be to verify level 3 certification.   

[Lyndasez]

LC,
Important question, if you know...were lights seen over this area by other hikers or mansi, etc??

[Loose}{Cannon]

LC,
Important question, if you know...were lights seen over this area by other hikers or mansi, etc??

From what I understand, The Mansi have seen lights in the sky since the creation of the earth and over the entirety of their indigenous region.  The other reports come from the search team themselves and I dont think they specified exactly where the light was seen.   

[Teddy]

I remember Sandy saying in the Comments:
"I have lived a number of years above the Arctic Circle. Lights, fireballs, and other strange luminescent events are common. People in the lower latitudes only know about "the Northern Lights" but there is a whole range of strange and spectacular things that happen at the higher latitudes. And it's not all lights either. Sound events often occur too, with and without lights. I have heard and seen things that I would think were alien ships whizzing by or crashing if I wasn't an engineer with a physics education. The amount of energy deflected and channeled by the earth's magnetic field is enormous and causes all sorts of light and sound shows at the higher latitudes.

Everyone wants to treat the fireball events seen around the time of the Dyatlov tragedy as special. Sorry, that sort of thing is not special at all. Go spend a couple winters up there and you'll see. I have. And I am not impressed at all by the stories. They are as common as hurricanes in Florida. Sure, some are bigger than others and some seasons have few and others a lot. But what was seen was not unique."

[mk]

I cannot say I have ever heard/read about items of clothing being 'in' the tree.  Can you provide the source for this information?

"Also, some of the clothes taken from the bodies underneath the cedar tree were placed on the cedar branches, but apparently they were not used."  This is on the main/front page of dyatlov-pass.com  The main site from which this forum is an offshoot.  Last sentence before you get to the timeline.  I took this to mean that the clothes were found on the cedar tree--not a report that the rescuers placed the clothing on the tree afterwards.

[mk]

“Why they were off course is also a great question.”

I read that Igor would stop and question the mansi as to the best way to go...they told him to follow their trail along the river... think they veered off due to the weather and decided to camp. Iirc.

Yeah, I remember that the rivers weren't frozen solid and so they had to ski along the banks, which was much harder for them.  That was kind of what I meant when I said that they might have been avoiding something in the pass.

(And skiing along the banks might be a reason they would be late, but Yudin left before that, didn't he?)

[mk]

I remember Sandy saying in the Comments:
"I have lived a number of years above the Arctic Circle. Lights, fireballs, and other strange luminescent events are common. People in the lower latitudes only know about "the Northern Lights" but there is a whole range of strange and spectacular things that happen at the higher latitudes. And it's not all lights either. Sound events often occur too, with and without lights. I have heard and seen things that I would think were alien ships whizzing by or crashing if I wasn't an engineer with a physics education. The amount of energy deflected and channeled by the earth's magnetic field is enormous and causes all sorts of light and sound shows at the higher latitudes.

Everyone wants to treat the fireball events seen around the time of the Dyatlov tragedy as special. Sorry, that sort of thing is not special at all. Go spend a couple winters up there and you'll see. I have. And I am not impressed at all by the stories. They are as common as hurricanes in Florida. Sure, some are bigger than others and some seasons have few and others a lot. But what was seen was not unique."

Really?  Fascinating!

I've only spent one winter in Russia (Vologda).  There were no lights or anything interesting like that while I was there.  Or, if so, I never saw or heard of it.

I thought I read somewhere that there were some soldiers in the area who saw light orbs... where did I read that?... and one was like, "Sir, what do we do?" And the reply was something like, "Do whatever you think is necessary."  So they fled in terror.  I don't remember where I read that, now; it might not be related to dyatlov pass.

Anyway, it does seem natural to connect the only other seemingly unusual event with the mystery of these hikers.  Of course, if unexplained lights are common, then it's not an unusual event at all.

[Loose}{Cannon]

MK...  More misunderstanding.

"Also, some of the clothes taken from the bodies underneath the cedar tree were placed on the cedar branches, but apparently they were not used."

This is in reference to the cedar branches supposedly making up the den floor as talked about in the other thread regarding the den.....  No clothing was found 'in' the infamous cedar tree in which the 2 Yuris and the fire were under. 

[mk]

MK...  More misunderstanding.

"Also, some of the clothes taken from the bodies underneath the cedar tree were placed on the cedar branches, but apparently they were not used."

This is in reference to the cedar branches supposedly making up the den floor as talked about in the other thread regarding the den.....  No clothing was found 'in' the infamous cedar tree in which the 2 Yuris and the fire were under.

Oh!  That makes more sense!  Thanks for explaining.

[Loose}{Cannon]

Actually, to be more specific.  The clothing on the den floor branches was staged. The clothing was actually found between the 'den' and cedar on top of the snow.  They were found when snow started to melt and exposed them.  The search team miraculously placed these items on the den floor and took pics.

[sharp55]

The one thing that should puzzle everyone is where they decided to pitch their tent? The are defies all basic winter mountain survival skills 101, it would have been much more feasible and safe to have camped in the wooded area to begin with. This is why my gut feelings are they chose the spot because of their caution from another group they got wind of, and they must have had at the least some worry (but not enough to have turned back in the first place) that would have prompted them to camp in the open where they did feel they could see anyone approaching and that the spot where they camped gave them the best opportunity not to be surprised (as it was not they best sheltered area for sure). My feelings are that the ones responsible had tailed them at least a day (caution on their part as if you are them you do not know how armed the Dyatlov group were). When they the (ones responsible) were assured of success they struck. That is mainly why I feel strongly that some locals were responsible and for whatever twisted reason proceeded to enact this murder. They for the most part not only disarmed the group as to why the knives were found in the tent as well as most of the gear and winter clothing etc. Afterwards  it can be debated as to what all took place after they forced the group down to the wooded area and the locale of the bodies etc. I do not believe the Russian military had anything to do with the Dyatlov party other than they could have stumbled upon the crime scene earlier. They (the military knew the group had permission to be there). The immediate answers I believe could have been discovered had a thorough search of the surrounding area had been performed. (Maybe it was and that is part of the cover-up who knows).

On the locals other than the Mansi people (whom I have a feeling are not guilty at all) have to come in mind and if not were they all interrogated(meaning all groups near the area)? Because whomever did this no doubt frequented the area they were not just there. The who could have and whom would be suspect could have been found out by locals unless this is such a bizarre case where they are all guilty which as written above I do not think so. But from the trail down to the woods which according to the eye-witnesses of the search party was anything but hurried which again points to they were led down or forced down to the woods in this manner. Had it had been anything else they would have shown panic from the foot prints in the first place. One narrative out of all this is never go into a mountain area like this unarmed period (know about Russian law and wanting the citizenry unarmed so can maintain power without uprising). Many in Russia seemed to have had this type of adventure etc thus many student groups went on these type of outdoor adventures. Just not recommended at least not unarmed at all.

In the end I believe all the evidence points to this being a crime and not some type of snow madness or anything else, most of the sites and videos always seem to skew this incident into what they believe or their agendas when I still believe in gut feelings and common sense. For instance the pot stove theory which if it were so does not answer why they went to the woods and the tent would have shown the evidence of this as well as the immediate surrounding are around the tent itself. Most theories cannot explain why the left the way they did down to the woods in the first place which all seem too point back to foul play when you think about it. Am sure as soon as more documentation gets released over time (if it exists) will shed more light on this tragic mystery.

[Loose}{Cannon]

When it comes to foul play.....   I don't trust those loggers they stayed with just days prior at the logging camp.

[sharp55]

That just makes this event the more intriguing loggers , locals  etc. Whomever it was either figured out they were unarmed then took advantage of this situation (Which still makes no sense to Why?) then struck. Something to think about if it were anyone they met prior to they would have had a good unction as to if they were armed and if so why not ambush them along the trail? It is such a baffling case because the autopsy's could be taken either way. Why did they settled on simply hypothermia and the elements as the culprit because one could go either way and the cases I know about concerning hypothermia do not have the type of injuries sustained. On the Den or better yet ravine it makes some sense as to why the survivors ended up there.

1. Cover and Concealment
2. Offers best protection from the apparent wind chill.

They were educated with at least some knowledge of the environment so in my mind that is where they hid, the other mystery is those that apparently tried to return to the camp site and perished in the attempt (or so we are led to believe). The climbing of the trees (they were not miles away from the camp) I think it was to be on the look out as well as check to see if whomever had left their tent and could they return to camp etc.

[Loose}{Cannon]

Heck...    They could have been tossed or otherwise discarded into the ravine.

[sharp55]

True and I am assuming they are the last survivors but maybe those that tried to go back to the camp are. One thing for sure they left the camp together to the wooded area with no trace of panic in the trail they left (via footprints) to the wooded area. While in the woods they attempted to survive by building a fire and climb trees as if on the lookout. Whatever drove them from their tent apparently caused the split up at that point and there we go. The red herring in this case too me is how they left the tent and then the dispersion afterwards in the initial wooded area (Which all the investigation confirms they were all grouped together around the hastily built camp fire in the woods) and what happened next without the testimony of those that drove them from the tent and later fire site is debatable. What is not is the first position after they left the tent and of course how they ventured down to the wooded area not really too far from their initial bivouac site.

When I first heard about this case it was presented as they all cut a hole through their tent and dispersed into a panic every which way but loose that is why all the hair brained theories came out of the wood work so to speak. However it was not until early this year that I revisited this story and learned of the actual facts of this case (which is currently known might add) that it became to me apparent they were murdered. It is strange Mountain of the dead howbeit it is actually Dead Mountain which gives a whole different meaning other than ghost and goblins. Another key element with thoughts like some sort of winter cabin fever or snow madness goes out the window as the group was only actually only on the first leg of their journey no where near their intended destination point. As noted the search party began searching further along the point the groups attended destination goal thinking they were further along their cross country ski trek, and it was expected to be more extreme further along the intended trip than where they were found.

In the end what is known begins to paint the picture as written previously of foul-play and not of some extraordinary paranormal or out of this world happenings etc. With all the sensationalism being brought forward concerning the Dyatlov tragedy the usual suspects are the KGB,military and so on when in actuality what we know seems to point to the locals or those that frequent this area and living in a close proximity of Dead mountain. 

[sharp55]

On the Russian government closing the area preventing future groups meeting the same fate. What if we think along the lines putting ourselves into their position as to they were no where near solving who could have done this via the time of discovery and effects of the elements had on the actual scene itself. The interrogations were not fruitful so to speak, so what if closing off the area at the time was more of an option to avoid a copycat scene involving another group and what would the ramifications be for the government allowing another tragedy to possibly take place other than closing off the area etc ?   

[McMeen]

Hello: New to this incident... Not knew to outdoors... hunting, tracking.
Understand first search party to arrive at the scene were volunteers...
Very curious.... Did they report any tracks, anything above the tents...???? In their report and statements do they actually state
there are NO Tracks, nothing unusual on the other side of tents. Thanks.

[McMeen]

Follow up question:
Did the first search party actually
file a written report?? Thanks

[Loose}{Cannon]

In short...  Not really.  Its all a hot mess. 

There are a few case files here http://forum.dyatlov-pass.com/index.php?board=46.0 that are relevant to the subject, but alot of what is/isn't about the scenes are within the 'interrogations' of witnesses.  In others words, there are a bunch of interviews with people who were on the scene first etc that I have not posted in the case files section of this board yet.    The information on the scenes is literally spread out all over the place.

[BottledBrunette]

I see a lot of people questioning why the hikers decided to pitch their tent on the mountain as opposed to the wooded area.  The answer is very simple.  They were all going on this adventure to get a IIII certification.  I saw a line somewhere that could have easily get overlooked.  They pitched their tent on the hill because it added points to the difficulty of their trip, which this trip was all about.  DIFFICULTY.  With pictures of the tent on the hill, they would definitely get extra credit or points or whatever they gave, for the extra difficulty of pitching a tent on the mountain.  It would be too easy to find the nice protection of the forest. Just my opinion.

[RidgeWatcher]

Igor Dyatlov was too meticulous to make such a fateful mistake by pitching their tent that high up and exposed to the snow, ice and elements.

Before the Dyatlov hikers skied up to the tent site they would have no way of knowing how avalanche prone that mountainside was, it could be deadly. With limited visibility that was too much of a gamble for Dyatlov. Dyatlov had to ask, will I put my hikers (responsibility) on an exposed mountainside and expose them to possible avalanche catastrophe? I believe the answer is no.

Why the tent site? Either they knew they were under duress or the tent was there with the hikers inside it.

[Manti]

Why the tent site? Either they knew they were under duress or the tent was there with the hikers inside it.

Did you mean "the tent wasn't there"?

[GKM]

I don't believe the hikers were inside the tent on that ridge. I believe the tent was originally set up in the forest. It is the most logical place. Even a novice would know better than to camp on that exposed ridge and they were certainly not novices. And.....I put no stock in the footprints.

[Jay]

I don't believe the hikers were inside the tent on that ridge. I believe the tent was originally set up in the forest. It is the most logical place. Even a novice would know better than to camp on that exposed ridge and they were certainly not novices. And.....I put no stock in the footprints.

It is there somewhere online (though I can't remember where - will share when I find it) that the tent was set up at the treeline or in the forest, but was moved by the military after the military killed them.