Camp Fire vs. Severe Cold

[JohnnyNumber6]

Hello this is my first post here.  I have several questions for which I can't find answers on the internet, so hopefully someone here will be nice enough to help me.  I live in a warm area where it snows 1 time a year, so obviously I know very little about surviving in cold temperatures.  I read somewhere that it was so cold that the campfire wasn't enough to save Krivonischenko and Doroshenko.  Around what temp does a camp fire become useless against the cold for someone lightly dressed?  I'm sure their body temperature was greatly impacted by the long walk down the slope and the time it took to build the fire.  So I'm asking to ignore the impact of the long walk.  Simply if you magically dropped a person next to camp fire at what temperature are they doomed?

[tekumze]

Hi JohnnyNumger6,
Good question. The answer is: you can not freeze near the fire. This is also one of the big puzzles for me. They managed to burn camp fire. And then nine people can not keep the fire (in the forest) and everyone froze. Did wind start to blow when the fire started to burn and it all went out or something? I have no answer ...

[sarapuk]

Its just one of the puzzles. There was a fire and we presume it was made by members of the Dyatlov Group. So why didnt they manage to keep the fire going  !  ?  Probably for the same reason that they found themselves at the Forest and the Cedar Tree, they were escaping from something.

[Star man]

Wow.  What a good question.  And more amazingly I have just started looking into the same issue.  Spooky!

I agree that they probably should not have died.  Especially if the fire was still hot enough to burn Yuris Ks leg to crisp. 

There is something very strange about the scene at the cedar, and maybe it holds a key clue to what happened that night.

Regards

Star man

[Nigel Evans]

All the indications are that it wasn't that cold. Six people in just socks and no frostbitten toes?

[Aspen]

Hi JohnnyNumber6.  To answer your question:  not long.  The few bits of dry firewood they manage to gather would be burned out in half an hour.

If I recall correctly, WAB said that it was around minus 18 degree Celsius that night at the level of the tent, and a few degrees colder down by the cedar, but out of the wind.  WAB also mentioned that the area by the cedar lacked dry firewood, and the photos of the area that he provided certainly prove that.  The first rescuers commented that the fire under the cedar tree had been just a small one.

My guess is that one of the reasons they started a fire there, as opposed to down in the ‘snow den’, is that under a big tree the snow is thinner.  They would have known that it is pointless to start a fire in deep snow, as it soon sinks in the snow and goes out. 

So, let’s say it was minus 20 Celsius by the cedar tree, it’s dark, they don’t have any tool to cut wood, they don’t have gloves or boots, and there is hardly any dry wood anyway, so the fire wouldn’t last long.  Under such conditions, after two or three hours they would become exhausted and hypothermic, unable to use their hands anymore because they’re frozen. 

These experienced hikers would have known that the priority, perhaps more important than the fire, was to make a shelter.  WAB has repeatedly said that the snow conditions in that area do not allow for digging a snow hut.  However, these hikers probably knew how to make an emergency shelter by laying poles against the cedar to form some kind of small ‘teepee’, cover them with spruce branches and then snow, and then huddled the nine of them in there. They may have survived the night from their group body heat in such a small enclosure. 

They seem to have left the tent together, but something scattered them at the cedar tree and elsewhere, perhaps the same thing that made them leave the tent.  The so-called ‘snow den’ down in the ravine was probably more about hiding than a shelter.

I find it hard to believe that the two Yuris burned themselves in their fire.  Not likely.

[Nigel Evans]

Ivanov’s first order of business is to board a helicopter and familiarize himself with the locations where the bodies were discovered. There is little to be seen in the places where Zina and Dyatlov had fallen, but the site of the 25-foot cedar tree yields more clues. Examining the charred cedar branches at the fire pit, Ivanov determines that the fire had not burned for more than two hours. It is also apparent from broken branches found nearby, that one of the men had climbed the tree and had likely fallen in the process of cutting away branches. Cedar trees are dry and fragile, and the bough may have given way beneath him. This would be consistent with the cuts and bruises found on Doroshenko’s body, as well as the branches found beneath him. Once the men had started the fire, it would have been large enough to warm them, but not large enough to keep it burning for long. There are also additional footprints, leading Ivanov to believe that at least one other person besides Doroshenko and Krivonishchenko had been present at the site of the tree. There is also evidence of firewood and fir twigs having been gathered for the fire, but not used. The obvious question, then, besides why the hikers had been only half-dressed with no shoes, is: Why gather perfectly good firewood, but let the fire go out? Ivanov records what information he can from the location, and as he heads back up the slope to commence his formal inspection of the tent, he considers the puzzle.

Eichar, Donnie. Dead Mountain (pp. 150-151). Chronicle Books LLC. Kindle Edition.

[Star man]

Ivanov’s first order of business is to board a helicopter and familiarize himself with the locations where the bodies were discovered. There is little to be seen in the places where Zina and Dyatlov had fallen, but the site of the 25-foot cedar tree yields more clues. Examining the charred cedar branches at the fire pit, Ivanov determines that the fire had not burned for more than two hours. It is also apparent from broken branches found nearby, that one of the men had climbed the tree and had likely fallen in the process of cutting away branches. Cedar trees are dry and fragile, and the bough may have given way beneath him. This would be consistent with the cuts and bruises found on Doroshenko’s body, as well as the branches found beneath him. Once the men had started the fire, it would have been large enough to warm them, but not large enough to keep it burning for long. There are also additional footprints, leading Ivanov to believe that at least one other person besides Doroshenko and Krivonishchenko had been present at the site of the tree. There is also evidence of firewood and fir twigs having been gathered for the fire, but not used. The obvious question, then, besides why the hikers had been only half-dressed with no shoes, is: Why gather perfectly good firewood, but let the fire go out? Ivanov records what information he can from the location, and as he heads back up the slope to commence his formal inspection of the tent, he considers the puzzle.

Eichar, Donnie. Dead Mountain (pp. 150-151). Chronicle Books LLC. Kindle Edition.

Yes there seems to be something very odd about the scene at the cedar.

Regards

Star man

[Nigel Evans]

Yes, imo it's 50/50 between military activity (including murder by special forces at the cedar) vs atmospheric electro magnetism, it's fascinating how the facts fit both theories extremely well, with no one fact tipping the balance.

But Ivanov opted for the latter... "Fire orbs firing directed heat rays", where does a perfectly sensible detective/barrister get these ideas from? Was it just missile testing? Was that why he was summoned to Moscow and told to shut up about fire orbs (or else)?

The observation that additional footprints existed but to a limited extent (at least one other person) doesn't work well with the special forces theory unless they covered their tracks extremely well with one or two men finishing in their socks...

[Star man]

Yes, imo it's 50/50 between military activity (including murder by special forces at the cedar) vs atmospheric electro magnetism, it's fascinating how the facts fit both theories extremely well, with no one fact tipping the balance.

But Ivanov opted for the latter... "Fire orbs firing directed heat rays", where does a perfectly sensible detective/barrister get these ideas from? Was it just missile testing? Was that why he was summoned to Moscow and told to shut up about fire orbs (or else)?

The observation that additional footprints existed but to a limited extent (at least one other person) doesn't work well with the special forces theory unless they covered their tracks extremely well with one or two men finishing in their socks...

If it was a military hit, then it would most likely have been a planned liquidation of one or more of the group (no witnesses). 

Where on the forum is the discussion around fire orbs?

Regards

Star man

[Nigel Evans]

Yes, imo it's 50/50 between military activity (including murder by special forces at the cedar) vs atmospheric electro magnetism, it's fascinating how the facts fit both theories extremely well, with no one fact tipping the balance.

But Ivanov opted for the latter... "Fire orbs firing directed heat rays", where does a perfectly sensible detective/barrister get these ideas from? Was it just missile testing? Was that why he was summoned to Moscow and told to shut up about fire orbs (or else)?

The observation that additional footprints existed but to a limited extent (at least one other person) doesn't work well with the special forces theory unless they covered their tracks extremely well with one or two men finishing in their socks...

If it was a military hit, then it would most likely have been a planned liquidation of one or more of the group (no witnesses). 

Where on the forum is the discussion around fire orbs?

Regards

Star man

http://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=281.0

has some good stuff he says modestly...

[Star man]

Yes, imo it's 50/50 between military activity (including murder by special forces at the cedar) vs atmospheric electro magnetism, it's fascinating how the facts fit both theories extremely well, with no one fact tipping the balance.

But Ivanov opted for the latter... "Fire orbs firing directed heat rays", where does a perfectly sensible detective/barrister get these ideas from? Was it just missile testing? Was that why he was summoned to Moscow and told to shut up about fire orbs (or else)?

The observation that additional footprints existed but to a limited extent (at least one other person) doesn't work well with the special forces theory unless they covered their tracks extremely well with one or two men finishing in their socks...

If it was a military hit, then it would most likely have been a planned liquidation of one or more of the group (no witnesses). 

Where on the forum is the discussion around fire orbs?

Regards

Star man

http://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=281.0

has some good stuff he says modestly...

Ah yes.  Remember all this stuff now. Thanks Nigel.

Regards

Star mam

[lucid-nonsense]

The problem is that you need to keep gathering wood for your fire. Say, if you have to spend 30 minutes looking for wood to get 1 hour of fire, you can freeze to death still if that 30 minutes of heat is not enough to compensate the 30 minutes of cold. It would get worse as they got more tired and hungry.

[sarapuk]

Ivanov’s first order of business is to board a helicopter and familiarize himself with the locations where the bodies were discovered. There is little to be seen in the places where Zina and Dyatlov had fallen, but the site of the 25-foot cedar tree yields more clues. Examining the charred cedar branches at the fire pit, Ivanov determines that the fire had not burned for more than two hours. It is also apparent from broken branches found nearby, that one of the men had climbed the tree and had likely fallen in the process of cutting away branches. Cedar trees are dry and fragile, and the bough may have given way beneath him. This would be consistent with the cuts and bruises found on Doroshenko’s body, as well as the branches found beneath him. Once the men had started the fire, it would have been large enough to warm them, but not large enough to keep it burning for long. There are also additional footprints, leading Ivanov to believe that at least one other person besides Doroshenko and Krivonishchenko had been present at the site of the tree. There is also evidence of firewood and fir twigs having been gathered for the fire, but not used. The obvious question, then, besides why the hikers had been only half-dressed with no shoes, is: Why gather perfectly good firewood, but let the fire go out? Ivanov records what information he can from the location, and as he heads back up the slope to commence his formal inspection of the tent, he considers the puzzle.

Eichar, Donnie. Dead Mountain (pp. 150-151). Chronicle Books LLC. Kindle Edition.

Are Cedar Trees dry and fragile  !  ?  All Trees absorb moisture.

[sarapuk]

Yes, imo it's 50/50 between military activity (including murder by special forces at the cedar) vs atmospheric electro magnetism, it's fascinating how the facts fit both theories extremely well, with no one fact tipping the balance.

But Ivanov opted for the latter... "Fire orbs firing directed heat rays", where does a perfectly sensible detective/barrister get these ideas from? Was it just missile testing? Was that why he was summoned to Moscow and told to shut up about fire orbs (or else)?

The observation that additional footprints existed but to a limited extent (at least one other person) doesn't work well with the special forces theory unless they covered their tracks extremely well with one or two men finishing in their socks...

Bold statement. What about other potential ELECTRICAL EVENTS  !  ? 

[Star man]

The problem is that you need to keep gathering wood for your fire. Say, if you have to spend 30 minutes looking for wood to get 1 hour of fire, you can freeze to death still if that 30 minutes of heat is not enough to compensate the 30 minutes of cold. It would get worse as they got more tired and hungry.

Possibly - but could you die next to the fire when it is still hot enough to cause severe burns to the legs?  It's possible that you could die there before the fire is built ans subsequently receive the burn.

Regards

Star man

[Morski]

The problem is that you need to keep gathering wood for your fire. Say, if you have to spend 30 minutes looking for wood to get 1 hour of fire, you can freeze to death still if that 30 minutes of heat is not enough to compensate the 30 minutes of cold. It would get worse as they got more tired and hungry.

Possibly - but could you die next to the fire when it is still hot enough to cause severe burns to the legs?  It's possible that you could die there before the fire is built ans subsequently receive the burn.

Regards

Star man

It could be posthumous, if for example, Yuri K was already dead/or was not conscious - very nearly dead, and the other Yuri was struggling to move him closer to the fire or wake him up. Or he was left for dead, while he still wasnt, and he moved at some point, but was already too weak and just succumbed.
 
The other option to get the burns after death, is that someone deliberately burned him by placing him near/onto the fire, which is a bit awkward. 

[lucid-nonsense]

The problem is that you need to keep gathering wood for your fire. Say, if you have to spend 30 minutes looking for wood to get 1 hour of fire, you can freeze to death still if that 30 minutes of heat is not enough to compensate the 30 minutes of cold. It would get worse as they got more tired and hungry.

Possibly - but could you die next to the fire when it is still hot enough to cause severe burns to the legs?  It's possible that you could die there before the fire is built ans subsequently receive the burn.

Regards

Star man

It could be posthumous, if for example, Yuri K was already dead/or was not conscious - very nearly dead, and the other Yuri was struggling to move him closer to the fire or wake him up. Or he was left for dead, while he still wasnt, and he moved at some point, but was already too weak and just succumbed.
 
The other option to get the burns after death, is that someone deliberately burned him by placing him near/onto the fire, which is a bit awkward. 

Did they specifically say he had severe leg burns? I remember reading hands and feet were burnt. He probably just went "let me just sit down and warm my hands and feet for a sec... let me just close my eyes for a sec..." then passed out, didn't feel the burn because of frostbite and died in that position.

[cennetkusu]

Probably the cause of burns is that they did not feel the temperature of the fire due to severe cold. That's why they didn't realize their skin was burned. Which proves that night was very cold but not stormy. Because if there was a storm, it wouldn't be possible to light the fire.

[Tuffknorf]

Hi!
Ive been around campfires in diffrent temperatures, also when freezing. That small fire would not have helped against the cold. First off if you have thick clothing you are insulated. The heat vill go into the outermost layer of your clothes where it easily cools off before it goes through the layers into your body. It might help marignally. But the heat exchange from a fire of that size is very small and the heat mostly just go upwards. So that means you will need to put a part of yourself close above the fire. Now there is a limited space for this in a small fire. And you can not really put anything else but your extremities there. Otherwise you will have constant smoke in your face, meaning your eyes gets irritated. But then putting your hands close the fire does not help much becouse then you extpand the surface where you are getting chilled from, Ie along your arms. Think about the idea that you need to transfer all that small intense head in your hands to the rest of your body. It does not really work.

What you want in this situation is a big fire, somewhere around a 0.5m radius of fire (if burning wood) is where you start to get a good heat radiation that is transfered horizontally out from the fire. An open fire is not really efficient for heating yourself. But I guess its better than nothing.

[sarapuk]

Hi!
Ive been around campfires in diffrent temperatures, also when freezing. That small fire would not have helped against the cold. First off if you have thick clothing you are insulated. The heat vill go into the outermost layer of your clothes where it easily cools off before it goes through the layers into your body. It might help marignally. But the heat exchange from a fire of that size is very small and the heat mostly just go upwards. So that means you will need to put a part of yourself close above the fire. Now there is a limited space for this in a small fire. And you can not really put anything else but your extremities there. Otherwise you will have constant smoke in your face, meaning your eyes gets irritated. But then putting your hands close the fire does not help much becouse then you extpand the surface where you are getting chilled from, Ie along your arms. Think about the idea that you need to transfer all that small intense head in your hands to the rest of your body. It does not really work.

What you want in this situation is a big fire, somewhere around a 0.5m radius of fire (if burning wood) is where you start to get a good heat radiation that is transfered horizontally out from the fire. An open fire is not really efficient for heating yourself. But I guess its better than nothing.

Good points. What if the FIRE was used to defend themselves from some sort of CREATURE. Common knowledge that outdoors people in the USA and Canada often keep Fires alight at night to ward off Grisly Bears and Wolves etc. Also a STICK alight could be used to defend.

[Loose}{Cannon]

All the indications are that it wasn't that cold. Six people in just socks and no frostbitten toes?

Welp, it's a simple fact it was below freezing, and some did apparently have frost bite.... However ergot poisoning also causes black fingers and toes from circulation problems. 

Not to mention from the pictures, the fire looks to have been very small and rather insignificant. Especially in wind and seriously low temps.

[Marchesk]

How hard would it have been to set the cedar tree on fire? I recall one podcast saying that's all they needed to do to stay warm. If you're desperate enough and the cedar tree is the only thing providing fuel for a fire ...?

[cennetkusu]

How hard would it have been to set the cedar tree on fire? I recall one podcast saying that's all they needed to do to stay warm. If you're desperate enough and the cedar tree is the only thing providing fuel for a fire ...?

Not possible in the cold in winter and when the air is humid. And a big tree with only matches ... Yes, the two Yuri were partially naked and wanted to light fire. But they did not burn much. And the other group members left. They stayed by the fire. They're too cold for possible sweats. And they stayed by the fire until the moment of death.

[Marchesk]

Not possible in the cold in winter and when the air is humid. And a big tree with only matches ... Yes, the two Yuri were partially naked and wanted to light fire. But they did not burn much. And the other group members left. They stayed by the fire. They're too cold for possible sweats. And they stayed by the fire until the moment of death.

So why would the others leave only two of them to tend a fire in those conditions? Sounds like they could have used more help. It's never been clear to me why the ended up in three separate locations if they descended together.

[Loose}{Cannon]

No no no....   

You start a small fire, then chop off a branch with live needle/foliage, stick that in the fire, then use it as a torch to ignite the rest of the tree.  Evergreens like this have stuff in the foliage that goes up like gasoline. 

Totally possible.  How do you think forest fires work?

[Nigel Evans]

Evergreens like this have stuff in the foliage that goes up like gasoline. 

I once disposed of our Xmas tree that had dried indoors for 2 weeks by taking it outside, throwing a little BBQ lighter fuel on it and setting fire to it. It went up like a bomb, the flames were 15-20 feet high.

I don't think the BBQ fuel was necessary....

[Loose}{Cannon]

Evergreens like this have stuff in the foliage that goes up like gasoline. 

I once disposed of our Xmas tree that had dried indoors for 2 weeks by taking it outside, throwing a little BBQ lighter fuel on it and setting fire to it. It went up like a bomb, the flames were 15-20 feet high.

I don't think the BBQ fuel was necessary....

I know your right!     Evergreens go up like a roman candle.