I don't think there was a cover-up

[lucid-nonsense]

I've never heard of the Soviets making this sort of cover-up, with a basically fake file. I think if they wanted to hide something, there wouldn't be a fake file and a fake investigation, there just wouldn't be a file and you didn't ask any questions if you knew what was good for yourself.

I mean, they straight-up erased people out of official pictures. Anybody who had an original of the picture could've went: "Hey, you erased this guy, what happened to him?". But try that and see where that gets you.

(The gulag. It's the gulag.)

So yeah, I'm thinking, why would they bother with the fake file if they just wanted to hush something up? Has something like that ever happened another time? Is there any other example of the Soviets making a fake file to hide something?

[Loose}{Cannon]

I dunno about "fake files", but Communist Russia was well known for trying to hide all sorts of stuff... just look at Chernobyl.

[gypsy]

I've never heard of the Soviets making this sort of cover-up, with a basically fake file. I think if they wanted to hide something, there wouldn't be a fake file and a fake investigation, there just wouldn't be a file and you didn't ask any questions if you knew what was good for yourself.

It is important to note that there were probably things going on simultaneously, Ivanov opened the criminal investigation and the military officer who confiscated the file according to Okishev only found out later and acted accordingly. We need to take into account that there was no Internet so the information was easier to contain and the state apparatus was not as solid as it pretended to be.

In other words, there could be a thin line between the cover-up and incompetence.

[sarapuk]

I've never heard of the Soviets making this sort of cover-up, with a basically fake file. I think if they wanted to hide something, there wouldn't be a fake file and a fake investigation, there just wouldn't be a file and you didn't ask any questions if you knew what was good for yourself.

I mean, they straight-up erased people out of official pictures. Anybody who had an original of the picture could've went: "Hey, you erased this guy, what happened to him?". But try that and see where that gets you.

(The gulag. It's the gulag.)

So yeah, I'm thinking, why would they bother with the fake file if they just wanted to hush something up? Has something like that ever happened another time? Is there any other example of the Soviets making a fake file to hide something?

Look at the facts. The searches lasted until they found all the bodies. Tests for Radiation were carried out. The Case was suddenly CLOSED and the immediate AREA put off limits for several years. All the main EVIDENCE disappeared, and the Bodies were buried as soon as possible. The Autopsy Reports for the Bodies seems to fall short of the standards one might expect from a potential Murder Investigation.

[Marchesk]

All the main EVIDENCE disappeared

Do we know with any certainty that there is evidence which hasn't been made public? It does sound like a coverup when you put it that way, but then again 1950s Soviet government would also tend to be heavy handed about things, even if they didn't have anything to coverup and just didn't like not knowing.

If it's known that some evidence is still secret, does anyone know what kind of evidence it would be, specifically? Such as particular photos, eyewitness testimony, military tests in the area, weather report, etc.

[lucid-nonsense]

The searches lasted until they found all the bodies.

Well, yeah, that makes sense? They actually found the last bodies by jabbing poles into the snow, everywhere, until a pole came up with cloth on it. They had search parties with helicopters and everything. That seems like pretty thorough to me? I mean, I'm sure some evidence was blown away by the wind or buried and lost forever, because it was several weeks before anyone got to the scene, then they had to leave because of the weather, but that's not the police's fault.

Tests for Radiation were carried out.

I'm not sure how extensive tests are evidence of a cover-up?

The Case was suddenly CLOSED

Was it, though? Seems to me like they closed it after admitting they didn't have enough evidence to figure out what happened, which actually seems pretty reasonable to me. It's not like it's gonna be possible to solve every single case.

the immediate AREA put off limits for several years

I guess they didn't know what happened and were playing it safe?

All the main EVIDENCE disappeared,

It's not that surprising that the original evidence is lost 70 years later...

and the Bodies were buried as soon as possible.

Weren't everybody basically buried in their hometowns? I guess people would want to have their funeral.

The Autopsy Reports for the Bodies seems to fall short of the standards one might expect from a potential Murder Investigation.

The autopsy reports seem pretty solid to me? They died from hypothermia and a high-speed collision (probably a fall).  What else would you have liked to see?

[lucid-nonsense]

I dunno about "fake files", but Communist Russia was well known for trying to hide all sorts of stuff... just look at Chernobyl.

Yeah but that's the thing. There isn't a fake Chernobyl file. Why would you bother with a fake file if you don't have to answer any questions anyway? I mean, just don't talk about it, and if someone asks too many questions, they can find like-minded inquisitive souls in the gulag.

[lucid-nonsense]

Ivanov opened the criminal investigation...

I thought there was no criminal investigation?

military officer who confiscated the file according to Okishev only found out later and acted accordingly.

I've never heard of this, the file was confiscated? The entire file? Then it was returned?

the state apparatus was not as solid as it pretended to be.

Do you mean that maybe there is a cover-up, but that the police isn't in on it? For example, the military knew something they didn't tell the police? That's possible, but then why wouldn't they just tell the police to drop the investigation?

If we're talking about the police covering it up, this means that they pretended to investigate while secretly knowing what happened the whole time, or that they just wrote up all these interviews and reports and tests. But for whom? Whom were they trying to fool?  It's not like they were going to show the file to anybody anyway?

And besides, can you imagine if the Soviets went through so much effort for a cover-up every time they killed someone? It would never end!

Maybe that's why the Bloc collapsed. 

[gypsy]

Ivanov opened the Criminal investigation, it says so at the beginning of the case files and in the resolution to close the case.

https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-384-387?rbid=17743

The cover up and confiscation is mentioned by Evgeni Okishev, prosecutor from Sverdlovsk, who suvervised the original case.

https://dyatlovpass.com/evgeniy-okishev-2013

https://dyatlovpass.com/evgeniy-okishev-2014

From information known, it seems that there was a cover-up, but not everyone was on it. I suppose that local "police" and prosecutors were not part of it, but were outranked. Okishev says the file was confiscated by a senior army officer from Moscow. If nothing else, we are missing some items mentioned in radiograms and toxicology report which is the standard practice to include in case of death.

[sarapuk]

All the main EVIDENCE disappeared

Do we know with any certainty that there is evidence which hasn't been made public? It does sound like a coverup when you put it that way, but then again 1950s Soviet government would also tend to be heavy handed about things, even if they didn't have anything to coverup and just didn't like not knowing.

If it's known that some evidence is still secret, does anyone know what kind of evidence it would be, specifically? Such as particular photos, eyewitness testimony, military tests in the area, weather report, etc.

Well the main site from which this Forum derives would have stated if there was any known Evidence missing which hadnt been made public.

[sarapuk]

The searches lasted until they found all the bodies.

Well, yeah, that makes sense? They actually found the last bodies by jabbing poles into the snow, everywhere, until a pole came up with cloth on it. They had search parties with helicopters and everything. That seems like pretty thorough to me? I mean, I'm sure some evidence was blown away by the wind or buried and lost forever, because it was several weeks before anyone got to the scene, then they had to leave because of the weather, but that's not the police's fault.  {{{{ Who said it was the Polices fault  }}}}

Tests for Radiation were carried out.

I'm not sure how extensive tests are evidence of a cover-up? {{{{ Who said that extensive tests are Evidence of a cover up  }}}}

The Case was suddenly CLOSED

Was it, though? Seems to me like they closed it after admitting they didn't have enough evidence to figure out what happened, which actually seems pretty reasonable to me. It's not like it's gonna be possible to solve every single case. {{{{ Yes the Case was suddenly CLOSED  }}}}

the immediate AREA put off limits for several years

I guess they didn't know what happened and were playing it safe? {{{{ So they must have been very concerned that something very unusual had happened  }}}}

All the main EVIDENCE disappeared,

It's not that surprising that the original evidence is lost 70 years later... {{{{ Considering the publicity locally and probably Nationally at the time and the fact that it was a potentially very serious CRIME it is surprising that the Authorities didnt keep all the main Evidence safe for posterity at least.  }}}}

and the Bodies were buried as soon as possible.

Weren't everybody basically buried in their hometowns? I guess people would want to have their funeral.

The Autopsy Reports for the Bodies seems to fall short of the standards one might expect from a potential Murder Investigation.

The autopsy reports seem pretty solid to me? They died from hypothermia and a high-speed collision (probably a fall).  What else would you have liked to see?  {{{{ There is no conclusive proof that the Dyatlov Group died from HYPOTHERMIA or and a HIGH - SPEED COLLISION. }}}}

[PghRunner]

I've been thinking about something similar to this--it doesn't have to necessarily be a cover-up.  It could have been a "shut 'er down."

What if "an unknown compelling force" was the specific answer, just not named?  What I mean by that is, those in charge of the investigation are given the direction of, "Look, we know what happened to these kids.  They were forced out/extreme force was used" and we're just going to leave it at that."  The old, "need to know basis" and no one involved in the investigation really needed to know.  Someone at the top knows what happened, whether accident or murder or what have you, but all anyone really needed to know was that it was violent.  It happened.  And now it's over.

I speculate this only based on the political nature of the Soviet Union at the time.  Eliminate all our questions, all the shoddy evidence and theories.  The USA in the 50s had their own witch hunts going on, trying to sniff out communism and ruining peoples lives/careers because of it.  The Soviets were so quiet and tightlipped about everything.  Yeah, they can't hide the accident at Chernobyl.  Gotta fess up to that one.  I just don't think a political machine like the Soviet Union would really need to go so far to create a cover up, especially if they knew what happened.  If they knew and determined no one else really needed to know, then they just ended it.  They acknowledged it was overwhelming, no need to specify, and that was that.  Kind of like, you're not exactly lying, but you're not exactly telling the truth.

And, in the end, no matter what specifically that force was--be accident or murder or Yeti or rouge Mansi--politically/culturally speaking, I wouldn't think they'd want that kind of information getting out to the public.  I don't know much about Soviet Russia, but I do know that information here in the States was pretty regulated in the 50s.  Assuming it was the same in the Soviet Union, it's reasonable to assume they want everyone to know, hey, we're in control.  We've got this.  There's nothing out there that you need to worry about, nothing that's going to chase you down a mountain and leave you to die.  They gave the explanation and quelled the proverbial fire before it started.

Of course, this could just be late night pondering.  It's interesting food for thought.  A socio-political perspective of Russia at the time/what the general populace was allowed to know verses not allowed to know, would be interesting.  Would it help solve the mystery.  No.  But it would perhaps give context to the world our nine were living in.

[jarrfan]

I agree with your assumption of the environment in Russia at the time. I lived through it so I know how it was.

One other tidbit of information I came across is that one of the rescurer volunteers, a young student, took one of the cameras in  order to see what was on it before the rangers knew it was missing. Once they realized it was missing, he was contacted and he folded and gave up the camera. Wonder what happened to that guy? Why would he take it in the first place if he didn't know there was a cover up  forming?

[Nigel Evans]

I've never heard of the Soviets making this sort of cover-up, with a basically fake file. I think if they wanted to hide something, there wouldn't be a fake file and a fake investigation, there just wouldn't be a file and you didn't ask any questions if you knew what was good for yourself.

I mean, they straight-up erased people out of official pictures. Anybody who had an original of the picture could've went: "Hey, you erased this guy, what happened to him?". But try that and see where that gets you.

(The gulag. It's the gulag.)

So yeah, I'm thinking, why would they bother with the fake file if they just wanted to hush something up? Has something like that ever happened another time? Is there any other example of the Soviets making a fake file to hide something?

Afaik it wasn't a fake file, it was the original file with anything deemed sensitive removed.

[Loose}{Cannon]

 

We dont know if anything is missing.   Just saying, we can speculate all day but......

[Nigel Evans]

When I reported to A. F. Yeshtokin about my findings - fireballs, radioactivity, he gave a completely categorical order: to classify everything, to seal everything up, to hand it over to the special unit and forget about it. Needless to say that all this was exactly done?https://dyatlovpass.com/lev-ivanov?lid=1

[Loose}{Cannon]

When I reported to A. F. Yeshtokin about my findings - fireballs, radioactivity, he gave a completely categorical order: to classify everything, to seal everything up, to hand it over to the special unit and forget about it. Needless to say that all this was exactly done?https://dyatlovpass.com/lev-ivanov?lid=1

Its no 'secret' that the case was 'secret' for many years until its release, what you propose does not speak to anything new or provide any evidence that items were 'missing' in the case files after declassification. 

[gypsy]

When I reported to A. F. Yeshtokin about my findings - fireballs, radioactivity, he gave a completely categorical order: to classify everything, to seal everything up, to hand it over to the special unit and forget about it. Needless to say that all this was exactly done?https://dyatlovpass.com/lev-ivanov?lid=1

Its no 'secret' that the case was 'secret' for many years until its release, what you propose does not speak to anything new or provide any evidence that items were 'missing' in the case files after declassification. 

Toxicology report either missing or deliberately not performed at all, inventory mentioned by search group members missing, whatever was done after the case was removed from Ivanov by military officer not accounted for at all. Nothing regarding the exclusion zone (somebody issued an order)... When Ivanov started talking about the fire orbs, first logical thing to do by his superiors would be to check with the nearest radar station about potential detection. We have no idea what else was done but not recorded properly.

[Loose}{Cannon]

Ok, but how would we know if something was omitted from declassification?  we dont. 

[Nigel Evans]

Ok, but how would we know if something was omitted from declassification?  we dont. 

Quite correct, but my original point was that (i assert) the case file is not "created" but what remains after things are removed.
There's an important difference in that what is there can be assumed to be genuine.

[garybonds]

I've never heard of the Soviets making this sort of cover-up, with a basically fake file. I think if they wanted to hide something, there wouldn't be a fake file and a fake investigation, there just wouldn't be a file and you didn't ask any questions if you knew what was good for yourself.

I mean, they straight-up erased people out of official pictures. Anybody who had an original of the picture could've went: "Hey, you erased this guy, what happened to him?". But try that and see where that gets you.

(The gulag. It's the gulag.)

So yeah, I'm thinking, why would they bother with the fake file if they just wanted to hush something up? Has something like that ever happened another time? Is there any other example of the Soviets making a fake file to hide something?

A cover-up doesnt make any sense at all. Maslennikovs notes cover weeks of minutiae of organizing search operations, making requests for supplies, instructions, communicating findings. All of this taking place long before the final four in the ravine was found.

If authorities had something to hide that they truly wanted hidden why would they allow all of that go on for months? At a great cost, with helicopters and planes flying people and supplies in and out and ~30 people on location.

No unambiguous tracks or remnants of anyone except the Dyatlov group was ever found. A chaotic violent assault playing out for hours in a snowstorm and leaving no traces behind seems not likely. Someone planning and chosing to go ahead with such an assault in 20-30 degrees below zero in a snowstorm in the wilderness also seems not likely.

[Per Inge Oestmoen]

A cover-up doesnt make any sense at all. Maslennikovs notes cover weeks of minutiae of organizing search operations, making requests for supplies, instructions, communicating findings. All of this taking place long before the final four in the ravine was found.

If authorities had something to hide that they truly wanted hidden why would they allow all of that go on for months? At a great cost, with helicopters and planes flying people and supplies in and out and ~30 people on location.

No unambiguous tracks or remnants of anyone except the Dyatlov group was ever found. A chaotic violent assault playing out for hours in a snowstorm and leaving no traces behind seems not likely. Someone planning and chosing to go ahead with such an assault in 20-30 degrees below zero in a snowstorm in the wilderness also seems not likely.

The cover-up is proven as a fact. The whole investigation was therefore part of it.

The local police did of course not know anything, but Moscow knew. Long before anyone in Sverdlovsk or Ivdel understood that something unusual had happened to the Dyatlov group, the Soviet authorities evidently knew about the fate of the nine students. There are documents that indicate that they prepared for the (staged) investigation long before the relatives of the students or anyone else in Sverdlovsk or Ivdel had any reason to believe that something was wrong. These documents were from February 5/6, and we also have to bear in mind that before the documents were made their creators must have known what they were going to write about. In other words, there must have been some meetings and deliberations before the first document was created. The Dyatlov group perished on February 1-2. Two days later, the Soviet authorities had already created a document that shows that they prepared for an investigation. So, this indicates that the central Soviet authorities knew it all the time.

Moreover, there are weather reports from the nearest weather stations in Burmantovo and Nyaksimvol. These reports indicate that the temperatures on February 1, 1959, was relatively mild in the area. That is why the nine students did not succumb very soon after being forced out from their tent insufficiently dressed in the expectation that the cold would do the job. Be that as it may, all the injuries can only be explained by human attack consistent with a scenario where the nine students were hunted down and killed. Trained killers with ample resources would have little problems with low temperatures, so it would have made no difference for their mission if the temperature had been very low either.

No one in the Sverdlovsk area prepared for any search before February 20, when nearly three weeks had passed after the tragedy. So not only the tracks of the attackers had disappeared, but almost all of the tracks made by the nine students too. Some elevated footprints down the slope were preserved, and the area around the tent was not examined with a forensic investigation in mind. The attacking group most likely had skis on their feet when they hunted down their victims, and ski trails would have even less chance than footprints of being preserved after 19 days in a winter landscape. The long period that went from the tragedy - the killings - to the first search caused most traces of what happened to disappear.

[sarapuk]

I've never heard of the Soviets making this sort of cover-up, with a basically fake file. I think if they wanted to hide something, there wouldn't be a fake file and a fake investigation, there just wouldn't be a file and you didn't ask any questions if you knew what was good for yourself.

I mean, they straight-up erased people out of official pictures. Anybody who had an original of the picture could've went: "Hey, you erased this guy, what happened to him?". But try that and see where that gets you.

(The gulag. It's the gulag.)

So yeah, I'm thinking, why would they bother with the fake file if they just wanted to hush something up? Has something like that ever happened another time? Is there any other example of the Soviets making a fake file to hide something?

A cover-up doesnt make any sense at all. Maslennikovs notes cover weeks of minutiae of organizing search operations, making requests for supplies, instructions, communicating findings. All of this taking place long before the final four in the ravine was found.

If authorities had something to hide that they truly wanted hidden why would they allow all of that go on for months? At a great cost, with helicopters and planes flying people and supplies in and out and ~30 people on location.

No unambiguous tracks or remnants of anyone except the Dyatlov group was ever found. A chaotic violent assault playing out for hours in a snowstorm and leaving no traces behind seems not likely. Someone planning and chosing to go ahead with such an assault in 20-30 degrees below zero in a snowstorm in the wilderness also seems not likely.

Well you are right about the searches. They tried hard to find all the bodies. When they found the last, MUTILATED, bodies, thats when things started to kick in seriously from the Top, ie, the  Government of the USSR and almost certainly from Nikita Khrushchev.

[Eve24]

Ha! Russia absolutely uses cover-ups and fake files; most spies do. It’s called disinformation or misinformation or propaganda. I don’t think that happened here-I think they feared they messed up somehow and sort of covered up “just in case” but not necessarily because they did anything. I just don’t see murder

[Lillie]

All the main EVIDENCE disappeared

Do we know with any certainty that there is evidence which hasn't been made public? It does sound like a coverup when you put it that way, but then again 1950s Soviet government would also tend to be heavy handed about things, even if they didn't have anything to coverup and just didn't like not knowing.

If it's known that some evidence is still secret, does anyone know what kind of evidence it would be, specifically? Such as particular photos, eyewitness testimony, military tests in the area, weather report, etc.

I think this is such a good point and probably illustrative of many situations throughout Russia and other systems too. The government or police reaction can look conspiratorial or even be conspiratorial but for completely different reasons than we imagine

[Nigel Evans]

All the main EVIDENCE disappeared

Do we know with any certainty that there is evidence which hasn't been made public? It does sound like a coverup when you put it that way, but then again 1950s Soviet government would also tend to be heavy handed about things, even if they didn't have anything to coverup and just didn't like not knowing.

If it's known that some evidence is still secret, does anyone know what kind of evidence it would be, specifically? Such as particular photos, eyewitness testimony, military tests in the area, weather report, etc.

I think this is such a good point and probably illustrative of many situations throughout Russia and other systems too. The government or police reaction can look conspiratorial or even be conspiratorial but for completely different reasons than we imagine

Both Okishev and Ivanov stated that they were ordered to cooperate with a cover up?