January 29, 2023, 07:01:46 AM
Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: The "Window" in the cedar tree  (Read 4603 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

October 17, 2019, 05:53:31 AM
Read 4603 times
Offline

garybonds


One thing the searchers noted about the cedar tree and which has led to a fair amount of speculation is the "window" in the branches at 4-5 meters height. Below is a photograph showing the "window".



I suddenly had an idea, let's see what you think.

I imagine they started out breaking the branches close to the ground for their fire. But soon it must have dawned on them that if they kept doing it that way, from the bottom up, then sooner or later the next branch would be out of reach and it would be impossible to get more firewood from the cedar!

But if they climbed up a bit and got branches from there and then worked downwards, then they could get more from the tree.

That's my explanation, basically.

Then at some point they must have gotten too weak, or someone had a fall from the tree or something, and they reverted back to just breaking them off from the bottom again.

(Caveat: since there's very little physical evidence about who climbed there and why, this is of course speculation. We cant even know for sure that the Dyatlovs created the "window")
« Last Edit: October 17, 2019, 06:29:15 AM by garybonds »
 

October 17, 2019, 10:40:56 AM
Reply #1
Offline

jarrfan


It was definitely the two Yuri's that climbed, they found their skin on the bark of the tree. Speculation was they climbed the tree to see the area of the tent and see if it was "clear." The fire burned for approximately 2 hours so they must have used more brush or dead wood from the area. There was a remark that there was suitable firewood around the area and the searchers wondered why it was not used instead of the cedar tree branches.

As I said, the tent only had the 3 cuts made in it horizontal and semi circular. The big cuts came from the  ice ax as the searchers hacked into it. So the hikers had to have left through the door. If they left through the door, what was the rush that they could not have put on proper clothing? This is the part that is unanswered for me.

As far as the ravine 4, it is possible they fell onto rocks at the ravine, but why were they all separated in the first place? The ravine 4 had such serious injuries they could not have navigated the way to the tree and den in the condition they were in, so they either fell or were pushed into the ravine.

The 3, Dyatalov, Rina and the other guy, must have been at the cedar tree because the den was only made for 4 persons, not 9.

I  believe they were separated or forced to be separated and interrogated which is standard procedure in most police investigations to separate and question, and get to the truth. This is speculation on my part.

So the ravine 4 were left alone at the area where they made the den.

If there were lots of rocks visible, this would speak to the reason why there were no snow footprints of any other persons or animals.

I also mentioned in another section the "false" crown Semyon had when his body was exhumed. That is a very strange thing to have a vacant crown. In the 50's and 60's spies were usually given a breakable capsule of cyanide or strictnine in case they were in a situation where they needed to kill themselves. It is possible that vacant crown was there for that reason. There is historical evidence that several Nazi officials used a cyanide capsule after being arrested for war crimes and used them after they were captured. It was a way to hide the capsule. Just another unanswered question.
 

October 17, 2019, 11:09:14 AM
Reply #2

tekumze

Guest

Dear garybonds,
Can you mark "window" in the picture? I don't  dunno1 see anything that looks like a window. Thanks in advance.
 

October 17, 2019, 02:25:07 PM
Reply #3
Offline

Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
The witness testimonies of some of the search and rescue team speculate that the branches were cleared so that they could look back towards the tent.  They say that many of the small branches that were cut were not used for firewood and many were hanging on the lower branches of the cedar.

There is clear evidence that Yuri D climbed the cedar.  But one of the things that puzzles me is that the autopsy reports states that Yuris D had severe frost bite on fingers and toes that was so severe that he would have had to have them amputated.  So at what point did he get the severe frost bite?  You would not think that he would have got this after the fire had been lit?  If he had got the frost bite before he got to the cedar then would he have been in a fit state to climb the tree?  Probably not.  So did he get the fost bite after climbing the tree to collect fire wood and before the fire was lit?  If this were the case how much time did it take to collect the wood and start the fire?  Is it possible that Yuris D and the others climbed the tree to evade something and they clung onto the tree for some time before they decided it was safe enough to climb down and start a fire?  This would explain why Yuris D had such severe frost bite.  Maybe it just took a very long time to get the fire going?  There were many matches lying around the fire.  About 27ish comes to mind, but I'm not sure now.

Regards

Star man

 
The following users thanked this post: Manti

October 17, 2019, 09:39:54 PM
Reply #4
Offline

jarrfan


The search team found plenty of other brush, dry limbs in the immediate area. The search team questioned why the hikers would have cut branches  from a green cedar tree,  which apparently would be a terrible way to start a fire, and did not use more of the brush/dry limbs in the area. So the theme that they were climbing the tree to get more tree limbs for the fire doesn't really fit into their situation. The Dyatlov Pass hikers mystery may never be determined, much like the Oak Island mystery, although personally I hope they both have answers.
 

October 18, 2019, 04:21:36 AM
Reply #5
Offline

Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
They may have used some of the branches for fire wood, but overall the evidence seems to point to them climbing the tree to find safety IMO.

So if this is the case then what would climbing a tree provide safety from?  Humans or animals , possibly fear of avalanche?

Regards
Star man

 

November 02, 2019, 09:07:53 AM
Reply #6
Offline

Marchesk


So if this is the case then what would climbing a tree provide safety from?  Humans or animals , possibly fear of avalanche?

There's no avalanche to be afraid of on that slope. At most a snow slab or slide could have hit the tent, but not anything that would worry them in the woods. Keep in mind that they also proceeded downhill in and orderly fashion, which would have taken some time under those conditions, so they couldn't have been all that concerned about an avalanche after leaving the tent. And I'm pretty sure Igor knew well enough what kind of slope they were on and that they weren't in any danger of an avalanche.

But it's possible he/they might not have considered a smaller slide event, although I doubt that's what happened.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2019, 09:11:57 AM by Marchesk »
 
The following users thanked this post: Manti

November 02, 2019, 04:46:36 PM
Reply #7
Offline

Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Yeah - an avalanche or snow slide is far from the top of my list of possible explanations.  But there is a chance that they may have feared a potential avalanche  - again though I agree that this is unlikely.

Regards

Star man
 

November 06, 2019, 12:15:00 PM
Reply #8
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
The search team found plenty of other brush, dry limbs in the immediate area. The search team questioned why the hikers would have cut branches  from a green cedar tree,  which apparently would be a terrible way to start a fire, and did not use more of the brush/dry limbs in the area. So the theme that they were climbing the tree to get more tree limbs for the fire doesn't really fit into their situation. The Dyatlov Pass hikers mystery may never be determined, much like the Oak Island mystery, although personally I hope they both have answers.

Yes there were plenty of other Trees that could have provided fire wood and easier to get at so why choose that particular tree  !  ?  I havnt changed My stance on this one and I believe they choose the tree to escape from something that was scaring them to death. The same thing that made them all leave the safety of their Tent. The same thing that drove the remainder to the so called Den in the Ravine, and where MUTILATIONS may have taken place.
DB
 

September 22, 2022, 07:35:21 AM
Reply #9
Offline

neni_cesty_zpet


My theory explaining worst wounds - happened under cedar

It's possible that they left the tent in bad weather with poor visibility...

Climbing takes a lot of energy. I think the reason why they were scavenging woods from this tree is because they did not want to walk in deep snow there, they were not
properly booted after all.
They decided to cut branches on this tree. Empty "window" on cedar was result of cut branches, not intended  to see in ten's direction.

The group was cooperating on this place around cedar to build fire. Two members were climbing the tree and cutting branches and two members were down,
picking up cut branches on ground below. I believe that it's possible that there was a spot without snow(or very little snow) under the cedar's treetop, that's
what I see sometimes in winter countryside.

But the heat of fire was not enough and they started developing hypothermia. The climbers vere surely standing on branches and it's possible that the branch under
their feet or bottoms suddenly cracked.
Their limbs were already slighly numb at that moment. One or both fell down onto comrades who were picking up cut branches.
Zolotarev and Lyudmila were worst wounded...

They were holding the trunk for stability in treetop, but it caused them moderate scratches (and skin left on trunk) after branch under their feet(or bottoms in case
of sitting on tree) cracked.

Was the knife used for cutting branches found? Was it the same knife someone used for slashing the tent?  dunno1

 
The following users thanked this post: Manti

September 22, 2022, 09:26:23 AM
Reply #10
Offline

Manti



As I said, the tent only had the 3 cuts made in it horizontal and semi circular. The big cuts came from the  ice ax as the searchers hacked into it. So the hikers had to have left through the door. If they left through the door, what was the rush that they could not have put on proper clothing? This is the part that is unanswered for me.

The tent was found mostly buttoned up (only one button was undone).

If they left via the door they couldn't have been in a rush because they had time to button it back up.

Their planned route: 217 miles in 15 days. That's 14 miles a day.
On their last day, they covered 1.5 miles. Why?
 

September 22, 2022, 09:34:34 AM
Reply #11
Offline

Manti


My theory explaining worst wounds - happened under cedar

It's possible that they left the tent in bad weather with poor visibility...

Climbing takes a lot of energy. I think the reason why they were scavenging woods from this tree is because they did not want to walk in deep snow there, they were not
properly booted after all.
They decided to cut branches on this tree. Empty "window" on cedar was result of cut branches, not intended  to see in ten's direction.

The group was cooperating on this place around cedar to build fire. Two members were climbing the tree and cutting branches and two members were down,
picking up cut branches on ground below. I believe that it's possible that there was a spot without snow(or very little snow) under the cedar's treetop, that's
what I see sometimes in winter countryside.

But the heat of fire was not enough and they started developing hypothermia. The climbers vere surely standing on branches and it's possible that the branch under
their feet or bottoms suddenly cracked.
Their limbs were already slighly numb at that moment. One or both fell down onto comrades who were picking up cut branches.
Zolotarev and Lyudmila were worst wounded...

They were holding the trunk for stability in treetop, but it caused them moderate scratches (and skin left on trunk) after branch under their feet(or bottoms in case
of sitting on tree) cracked.

Was the knife used for cutting branches found? Was it the same knife someone used for slashing the tent?  dunno1

Excellent. We have a new theory!


Ravine 4 injuries not caused by a fallen tree but by falling comrades. Plausible and requires no conspiracy or supernatural events. Honestly it's the best explanation for the ravine 4 injuries I've read so far.

Their planned route: 217 miles in 15 days. That's 14 miles a day.
On their last day, they covered 1.5 miles. Why?
 

September 22, 2022, 06:09:52 PM
Reply #12
Online

GlennM


Can you reconcile having a "spy hole" in the tree while simultaneously having a fire on the ground? Should they not be mutually exclusive? If not, then I could accept looking back toward the tent for direction before accepting looking out for marauding people or critters.
 

September 23, 2022, 01:33:27 AM
Reply #13

Charles

Guest
« Last Edit: December 15, 2022, 10:30:19 PM by Charles »
 

September 23, 2022, 02:49:58 AM
Reply #14

Charles

Guest
« Last Edit: December 15, 2022, 10:30:28 PM by Charles »
 

September 23, 2022, 01:16:04 PM
Reply #15
Offline

Игорь Б.


Полураздетым людям нужен костёр, а не продукты. До лабаза 2 км., а до кедра 1,5 км. Лабаз скрыт за продуваемым перевалом, а лес перед глазами.

Кедр - лучшее топливо для костра:
Quote
Кедр - это настоящий король для костра. Сухие сучья этого дерева настоящая находка для путника. костер с помощью кедровых дров можно развести даже в самую сырую погоду. Костер будет давать ровное, красивое пламя и отличный жар. Древесина кедра не дымит и не стреляет.

Идеальными дровами для костра будут кедровые. Если вы хоть раз проведете ночевку у костра на кедровых дровах, никогда не забудете этой превосходной ночевки. В дальнейшем больше никогда не захотите выбрать другие дрова для костра.

https://dzen.ru/media/id/604b1202fa7bf6638f2a9bdc/samye-luchshie-drova-dlia-kostra-moi-opyt-teper-jgu-koster-tolko-iz-etoi-drevesiny-605040476c861f01074efab0


У лабаза были "хилые сырые ели". Дятловцы это уже знали.
An example of the impact of chemical weapons of a skunk (wolverine) in a tent:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=117054
 

September 23, 2022, 06:04:58 PM
Reply #16
Online

GlennM


What makes sense to me is that the hikers must have weighted their options of retreating to their cache, or proceeding to the woods.I think they went to the woods for these reasons (1) They believed the forest was closer that it was. (2) It was downhill from the tent,(3l abundant firewood (4) windbreak shelter (5) it would only be for a couple of hours till daybreak.

In the forest, perhaps they dug in the failed snow cave first, then came back to the cedar for fire and orientation toward the tent. Finally the last three hikers tried to make it back to the tent to help any of their distressed friends. It did not work out.
 

September 23, 2022, 07:41:24 PM
Reply #17
Offline

Manti


I think it's quite possible that they were "lost" for the last days.

They climbed up to the pass, then descended back down to Auspiya instead of continuing on to Lozva. This means losing a day.

They then set up the tent on the slope, in a snowstorm with apparently zero visibility. It could be that this is not where they intended to camp but had no other option, because of the storm. And they had no idea where they were.


And then they went to the Lozva valley while their storage was in the Auspiya valley.

I think this was either a mistake, or they couldn't go to Auspiya for some reason. Charles, do you think this reason was because they were attacked and the attackers didn't let them?

For me, an ambush is very hard to consider, because their bodies were just left there. Who would do that and why?

No. Most likely they just went to the wrong valley, but it's also possible that the perceived danger that made them leave the tent was coming from the direction of the storage, so they avoided it. Or that it was just too cold and they thought it's further away than the cedar.

Their planned route: 217 miles in 15 days. That's 14 miles a day.
On their last day, they covered 1.5 miles. Why?
 

September 23, 2022, 09:11:32 PM
Reply #18
Online

GlennM


Under any circumstance, I still like the slab slip explanation over the others. Making cold camp in whiteout conditions, crazy cold and tired, yeah, it could have happened just that way. Sad business but deucedly interesting.
 

September 24, 2022, 02:25:38 AM
Reply #19

Charles

Guest
« Last Edit: December 15, 2022, 10:30:39 PM by Charles »
 

September 24, 2022, 04:00:48 AM
Reply #20

Charles

Guest
« Last Edit: December 15, 2022, 10:30:48 PM by Charles »
 
The following users thanked this post: Ehtnisba

September 24, 2022, 01:35:04 PM
Reply #21
Offline

Manti


There are several other factors too. For example, they had compasses. And the wind blows from the NW, so going to the cache would have meant tailwind, whereas going to the cedar meant wind from the left which is worse in my opinion. Considering it's cold wind in -20C conditions.

And like you say they also didn't know the Lozva valley so they were going to the unknown.


All these point to the rational decision being a return to the cache. But they didn't do that. I think we only differ in our opinion on why...



Their planned route: 217 miles in 15 days. That's 14 miles a day.
On their last day, they covered 1.5 miles. Why?
 

September 24, 2022, 01:54:22 PM
Reply #22
Offline

Manti


Regarding a snow slip,


It doesn't look like there has been one... This is wind carved layered snow that thawed and refroze into layers. Maybe there was an entire other layer on top that got blown away since, but the fact is the search found the tent, almost buried in this. If there was another layer the tent was dug into that has since disappeared, the tent wouldn't have been buried.

Their planned route: 217 miles in 15 days. That's 14 miles a day.
On their last day, they covered 1.5 miles. Why?
 

September 24, 2022, 09:36:11 PM
Reply #23
Online

GlennM


Perhaps if the hikers chose the cache over the woods, that would have ended the expedition right then and there. Instead, hoping to salvage the expedition, they chose not to raid their reserves, but instead to make for the forest temporarily to regroup and return to their tent a few hours later. I believe they lost a day previously on their schedule. That was a day's worth of resources.

Since there is no clear proof the hikers were assaulted by man nor beast, and since neither their tent, nor cache were raided for supplies, I conclude they acted without external threat from marauders. What is left is a natural occurrence. The tent was found collapsed and partially buried. It could have been an earthquake, katabatic wind or lights in the sky, but what was left was a snow covered canvas tent with a collapsed middle, broken ski poles and three corpses on the way back to it.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2022, 09:41:40 PM by GlennM »
 

September 25, 2022, 04:58:38 AM
Reply #24

Charles

Guest
« Last Edit: December 15, 2022, 10:30:59 PM by Charles »
 

September 25, 2022, 05:50:08 AM
Reply #25

Charles

Guest
« Last Edit: December 15, 2022, 10:31:07 PM by Charles »
 

September 25, 2022, 06:55:49 AM
Reply #26

Charles

Guest
« Last Edit: December 15, 2022, 10:31:14 PM by Charles »
 

September 25, 2022, 07:39:46 AM
Reply #27

Charles

Guest
« Last Edit: December 15, 2022, 10:31:22 PM by Charles »
 

September 25, 2022, 10:16:41 AM
Reply #28

Charles

Guest
« Last Edit: December 15, 2022, 10:29:54 PM by Charles »
 

September 25, 2022, 01:36:41 PM
Reply #29
Online

GlennM


The coroner described trauma on the deceased. If this was inflicted  by humans, I would expect the report to say something like blunt force trauma consistent with bludgeoning with a club, rifle butt etc. There was no such description. There was identification of wounds and a general analysis of their cause. Nothing directly points to homicide. If we want to take a deep dive into those who were peripheral to this tragedy, I say, follow the money.

Further, unless the assailants brought brooms, where are their prints? True too, that just like me, everyone on this forum sees things through their own personal filter. Trying to make your filter superior by denigration another's is a sure fire recipe for ostracism. You do not get two to make a first impression.

I believe the comment made about getting oriented in the new surroundings as a function of time is a very good one. The conclusion must then be that the hikers decided to not retreat to the cache as a clear choice. This might even have additional support by the,evidence of the three who returned to the tent were not redirecting themselves to the cache. It is indicative of choice. It's also commonsense if the tent was physically closer to the cedar than the cache was.

Sixty years makes for a very cold case. Unless there are deathbed confessions or those missing tissue samples turn up with incriminating evidence, I think the Russian authorities recent conclusion about the incident is the correct one. Good people got caught out in an  situation that proved fatal. They fled the immediate danger, they prepared fire, they may have had canned milk, they took clothes from deceased comrades, they tried a snow cave. They got cold, hurt and separated. It did not turn out well.