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Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: What if: fire and the den  (Read 13284 times)

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October 17, 2019, 11:10:57 PM
Read 13284 times

tekumze

Guest
I don't know if anyone has mentioned this before: And what if we make the claim that fire and shelter (den) were made  before Dyatlov group was forced to descend to the forest border? That they did it some other people....  shock1
« Last Edit: October 18, 2019, 03:17:03 AM by tekumze »

October 18, 2019, 10:38:14 AM
Reply #1
Offline

jarrfan


There are many questions about the den. Why was it made and not used and the ravine is where they ended up? The picture they show of the den was covered with like 15 feet of snow and shows 4 "seats." The only thing I can say for certain is that whoever or whenever the den was made, it had to have been made before everyone of the ravine 4 became severely injured. Once they were injured, they died where they were. They could not have moved around after their conditions became so blatantly serious.

October 18, 2019, 10:46:02 AM
Reply #2
Offline

jarrfan


Everything is possible. But for the hikers to go down build a fire and then build a den after a grueling trek and then putting up the tent, I am not so sure what would have been the reason for that if they were in no danger. The only reason for them to leave the tent would be danger.

October 18, 2019, 03:27:01 PM
Reply #3
Offline

Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
I suspect that the remaining living hikers were in the process of moving from the cedar to the more sheltered ravine.  I am sure they would have planned to build a fire at the den as they still had matches and one fire already on the go.  But something happened before tho move was finished and a new fire could be lit.

I don't think that anyone else or the hikers would have lit the fire or made the den until after their had to leave the safety of their own tent.

Regards

Star man

October 19, 2019, 12:07:59 AM
Reply #4

tekumze

Guest
Okay, what is the chance that the sequence of events was like this?
Because it is more or less clear that military activity has always been present in this area of ​​tragedy. For now, according to the parameters of the criminal profile, it is very likely that the gentleman who claimed at a press conference June 26 in Yekaterinburg this year that it was the rocket, was not lying. For everyone else at the conference is more likely to claim that they acting in the interests of some higher interest.

Maybe the missile was fired anyway for testing purposes and not by mistake. And that military observers were present on the slope at that time. Because access to the slope by helicopter is not so difficult. And that it was these military observers who lit a fire and built a shelter (den). But then something went wrong with the testing, possibly an unforeseen explosion that in some way damaged the Dyatlov group. And things went from bad to worse. The army, however, had to clean up and cover up the incident.

Mr Tumanov's statement that the injuries on the corpses (that they were tied up, the impact and other injuries ...) nevertheless indicate the presence of an unknown perpetrator (human) cannot be overlooked.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2019, 02:01:24 PM by tekumze »

October 19, 2019, 02:52:42 PM
Reply #5

tekumze

Guest
And what if Dyatlov group never left the tent at all. What if they were  injured by a powerful hitwave  explode1 of some sort of testing rocket. And that this was the only reason why are some were badly dressed. Because they were already injured and unable to dress and put on their shoes.  Some were injured more others less. And then the soldiers carried them to the forest border, where they just died one after the other because of their injuries. It should be borne in mind that the autopsy of a body that has been exposed to low temperatures after death for a long time can easily recognize all the elements that indicate death due to hypothermia, even though death occurred entirely due to other causes. In addition, autopsy reports are very shabby. Also, tent status information is unreliable. Notably the story that the tent was cut from the inside. Also, with regard to the footprints in the snow, given the available photographs, we can easily claim what we want. And if we actually think that 9 people died and that we only have these exhibit photographs for the proof from the scene of the "accident," then we can really wonder what command the investigators had. To find something or to hide something?   
« Last Edit: October 20, 2019, 05:28:10 AM by tekumze »

October 19, 2019, 03:00:12 PM
Reply #6
Offline

Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Okay, what is the chance that the sequence of events was like this?
Because it is more or less clear that military activity has always been present in this area of ​​tragedy. For now, according to the parameters of the criminal profile, it is very likely that the gentleman who claimed at a press conference June 26 in Yekaterinburg this year that it was the rocket, was not lying. For everyone else at the conference is more likely to claim that they acting in the interests of some higher interest.

Maybe the missile was fired anyway for testing purposes and not by mistake. And that military observers were present on the slope at that time. Because access to the slope by helicopter is not so difficult. And that it was these military observers who lit a fire and built a shelter (den). But then something went wrong with the testing, possibly an unforeseen explosion that in some way damaged the Dyatlov group. And things went from bad to worse. The army, however, had to clean up and cover up the incident.

Mr Tumanov's statement that the injuries on the corpses (that they were tied up, the impact and other injuries ...) nevertheless indicate the presence of an unknown perpetrator (human) cannot be overlooked.

I couldn't comment on the rocket specifically, but there is a good chance there was some kind of military activity in the area.  There is strong indication of cover up.  I doubt that any cover up or signing of secrecy papers on behalf of those involved in the investigation would have been necessary for any kind of natural event or even poor decision making on behalf of the Dyatlov group.  On that basis I believe that indirect human involvement is a strong possibility.

If there were observers there then I think it is likely that they would have been better prepared than just having a fire and a snow den.  So I don't think they would have been at the cedar or ravine before the hikers got there.  The evidence around the cedar and ravine is one of desperate survival.

I don't think there is strong evidence of them being tied up.  But it is possible that information was not on included in the autopsy reports.  However, the whole sequence of events does not fit with a direct human attack on the group.  I think something else happened.  Something possibly linked with military testing or some other research.

Regards

Star man

October 19, 2019, 03:21:32 PM
Reply #7
Offline

Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
And what if Dyatlov group never left the tent at all. What if they were  injured by a powerful hitwave  explode1 of some sort of testing rocket. And that this was the only reason why are some were badly dressed. Because they were already injured and unable to dress and put on their shoes.  Some were injured more others less. And then the soldiers carried them to the forest border, where they just died one after the other because of their injuries. It should be borne in mind that the autopsy of a body that has been exposed to low temperatures after death for a long time can easily recognize all the elements that indicate death due to hypothermia, even though death occurred entirely due to other causes. In addition, autopsy reports are very shabby. Also, tent status information is unreliable. Notably the story that he was cut from the inside. Also, with regard to the footprints in the snow, given the available photographs, we can easily claim what we want. And if we actually think that 9 people died and that we only have these exhibit photographs for the proof from the scene of the "accident," then we can really wonder what command the investigators had. To find something or to hide something?

Well, if there was a blast near the tent and the military knew they were there, I can't help but think it would be easier, cleaner and more logical to just remove all the evidence completely, rather than to try to recreate the scene to make it look like some kind of accident.  I don't think the authorities knew the group were there, or they maybe would not have even allowed the criminal investigation to begin.  It would be less conspicuous to not start the investigation than to force it to be shut down.  It does appear that there is something that the authorities want to keep under wraps.

As you may be aware one line of investigation that I am looking into is that of a military test using apes as test subjects, where the apes have managed to get loose and have attacked the hikers.  A silver back Gorilla attacking the tent, forcing the hikers away from their shelter and eventually attacking and injuring those in the ravine.  A secret military test resulting in the indirect deaths of the hikers would be a good reason to keep it under wraps. Apes were used routinely to test military weapons in these times.  Gorillas are adapted to sub zero temperatures and have the strength and power to cause the injuries.  It also explains the randomness of the pattern of the deaths.  Some die of hypothermia, others are injured by the apes before they die.  Humans would simply kill them and clear up the mess to remove any trace of evidence. 

The Mansi were dropped from the investigation as suspects because the authorities knew they were not involved.

Regards

Star man

October 20, 2019, 01:47:46 AM
Reply #8

tekumze

Guest
It is impossible to clear and conceal everything. Nine people who have already been enrolled in the system died. Relatives (some of whom are highly ranked in society) and friends and locals asked questions. And something had to be answered. There was a need to invent a story that would be as plausible as possible and would obscure the truth. And today it is the same. Why do you think that for the whole year, the "reopening of the Dyatlov case" with all possible experts is the 100th check for whether or not there was a snow avalanche? It is precisely because there is always a need to divert attention away from what we do not want that people to know. Anything that was difficult to justify for the state, such as the fault of a rocket, army, monkeys, gorillas, Elvis Presley ..., is best replaced by a natural disaster. Because nobody can blamed or judged the nature.  So far, this formula is the most effective and is used worldwide.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2019, 02:29:04 AM by tekumze »

October 20, 2019, 07:55:40 AM
Reply #9
Offline

gypsy



Well, if there was a blast near the tent and the military knew they were there, I can't help but think it would be easier, cleaner and more logical to just remove all the evidence completely, rather than to try to recreate the scene to make it look like some kind of accident.  I don't think the authorities knew the group were there, or they maybe would not have even allowed the criminal investigation to begin.  It would be less conspicuous to not start the investigation than to force it to be shut down.  It does appear that there is something that the authorities want to keep under wraps.


Just few points...we should not consider "the authorities" for one solid governing body. The administration espacially in communist countries was very complicated, one bureau often didn't know what the other was doing. Even more so if these were dealing with classified matters. Local authorities who comenced the search were almost certainly not aware of exact actions of any other state office above their rank. To make 9 people disappear is far from easy and it could haeve caused the search to last ages. Instead, somebody /the colonel mentioned by Okishev?/ opted to close the investigation ASAP and close the area from public. In the pre-internet age, not a bad idea at all.

It is precisely because there is always a need to divert attention away from what we do not want that people to know. Anything that was difficult to justify for the state, such as the fault of a rocket, army, monkeys, gorillas, Elvis Presley ..., is best replaced by a natural disaster. Because nobody can blamed or judged the nature.  So far, this formula is the most effective and is used worldwide.

Completly agree with that. The point of disinformation is not to persuade public what to think, but to create the enviroment where nobody knows what to think. It is an old KGB tactics still in place today and directed against Ukraine, Georgia, Jews, EU, liberalism, whatever...The other aim is to smear any opinion that would question the actions and explanations of Soviet/Russian "authorities" because in bolshevik's mind, the government is always true even its statements are contradictory themselves. The investigation of an "avalance" that did not happen in 1000 years on that slope is the same load of bollox. The best way how not to solve a crime is either deny it never happened or to blame it on anything else but other people (directly or indirectly). If that was trhe case, they did a pretty good job with a cover-up.

October 20, 2019, 10:26:32 AM
Reply #10

tekumze

Guest
"The point of disinformation is not to persuade public what to think, but to create the environment where nobody knows what to think." Hey Gypsy, I haven't heard such a good sentence in a long, long time.  thumb1

October 20, 2019, 10:53:33 AM
Reply #11
Online

Nigel Evans


My view is that :-
  • They are all in the tent and then flee it together (at least 8 tracks), splitting into smaller groups (this was reported by the rescuers).
  • One group gets a bad "hit" from something (nitric acid perhaps) and Zinaida, Igor and Rustem give up on the descent.
  • The rest build a fire, drag the two Yuris to their resting place and remove their clothes.
  • The last four abandon the fire, build a den but get crushed under the snow.
This is an interesting timeline because it requires multiple violent events not just say one rocket.
Events :-
  • Causes them to flee the tent.
  • Causes Zina, Igor, Rustem to just give up on the slope but the rav4 remain able bodied. Possible that the 2 Yuris experience the same event but they make it to the cedar before giving up.
  • Something causes the rav 4 to abandon the fire for the den. This doesn't have to be an external event but an internal decision to the group. But it could be an external (violent) event (i.e. they sought shelter under the snow in the ravine).
  • The rav4 are crushed under the snow.
So 3 or 4 violent events with 4 probably being run over by a vehicle.
Looks like a military exercise to me with multiple missiles. I'd like to add "or fire orbs" but the this new detail of clothing covered in orange powder and orange snow tips the balance in favour of rocket fuel.

But the more interesting question imo is what happens next. Massive expense (triple probed 1500 hectares?) to find remains that could be easily found by waiting for the summer. True some of them might have been carried downstream and lost.
Ivanov summoned to Moscow and told to stop talking about fire orbs (or else)?
On discovery of bodies, confiscation of evidence by military personnel and shutdown of civilian investigation.
30 years later, Ivanov feels it safe to talk about fire orbs (or it's a diversion).
This year, case reopened but seemingly a whitewash.

October 20, 2019, 03:18:49 PM
Reply #12
Offline

Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
It is impossible to clear and conceal everything. Nine people who have already been enrolled in the system died. Relatives (some of whom are highly ranked in society) and friends and locals asked questions. And something had to be answered. There was a need to invent a story that would be as plausible as possible and would obscure the truth. And today it is the same. Why do you think that for the whole year, the "reopening of the Dyatlov case" with all possible experts is the 100th check for whether or not there was a snow avalanche? It is precisely because there is always a need to divert attention away from what we do not want that people to know. Anything that was difficult to justify for the state, such as the fault of a rocket, army, monkeys, gorillas, Elvis Presley ..., is best replaced by a natural disaster. Because nobody can blamed or judged the nature.  So far, this formula is the most effective and is used worldwide.

I agree with the fundamental point you are making about mis-information and manipulation it is something used in all societies for varying purposes.  It can be used for the common good or for otHer less noble reasons.

I don't think that the dpi was a deliberate human act though.  It had the hallmarks of either some extreme unlikely set of circumstances or an indirect consequence of human activity. 

Regards

Star man

October 20, 2019, 03:30:49 PM
Reply #13
Offline

Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient

Well, if there was a blast near the tent and the military knew they were there, I can't help but think it would be easier, cleaner and more logical to just remove all the evidence completely, rather than to try to recreate the scene to make it look like some kind of accident.  I don't think the authorities knew the group were there, or they maybe would not have even allowed the criminal investigation to begin.  It would be less conspicuous to not start the investigation than to force it to be shut down.  It does appear that there is something that the authorities want to keep under wraps.


Just few points...we should not consider "the authorities" for one solid governing body. The administration espacially in communist countries was very complicated, one bureau often didn't know what the other was doing. Even more so if these were dealing with classified matters. Local authorities who comenced the search were almost certainly not aware of exact actions of any other state office above their rank. To make 9 people disappear is far from easy and it could haeve caused the search to last ages. Instead, somebody /the colonel mentioned by Okishev?/ opted to close the investigation ASAP and close the area from public. In the pre-internet age, not a bad idea at all.

It is precisely because there is always a need to divert attention away from what we do not want that people to know. Anything that was difficult to justify for the state, such as the fault of a rocket, army, monkeys, gorillas, Elvis Presley ..., is best replaced by a natural disaster. Because nobody can blamed or judged the nature.  So far, this formula is the most effective and is used worldwide.

Completly agree with that. The point of disinformation is not to persuade public what to think, but to create the enviroment where nobody knows what to think. It is an old KGB tactics still in place today and directed against Ukraine, Georgia, Jews, EU, liberalism, whatever...The other aim is to smear any opinion that would question the actions and explanations of Soviet/Russian "authorities" because in bolshevik's mind, the government is always true even its statements are contradictory themselves. The investigation of an "avalance" that did not happen in 1000 years on that slope is the same load of bollox. The best way how not to solve a crime is either deny it never happened or to blame it on anything else but other people (directly or indirectly). If that was trhe case, they did a pretty good job with a cover-up.

I agree with what you say on the complexity of governement and the communication between different parts of it. It seems to make sense to me although I can't say that I am an expert on it.

I still think making everything disappear would be an easier option if the hikers had been deliberately targeted.  I can't see any motive for there to be an attack on them, and especially where it happened.  Time may tell.

Regards

Star man

October 20, 2019, 03:41:21 PM
Reply #14
Offline

Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
My view is that :-
  • They are all in the tent and then flee it together (at least 8 tracks), splitting into smaller groups (this was reported by the rescuers).
  • One group gets a bad "hit" from something (nitric acid perhaps) and Zinaida, Igor and Rustem give up on the descent.
  • The rest build a fire, drag the two Yuris to their resting place and remove their clothes.
  • The last four abandon the fire, build a den but get crushed under the snow.
This is an interesting timeline because it requires multiple violent events not just say one rocket.
Events :-
  • Causes them to flee the tent.
  • Causes Zina, Igor, Rustem to just give up on the slope but the rav4 remain able bodied. Possible that the 2 Yuris experience the same event but they make it to the cedar before giving up.
  • Something causes the rav 4 to abandon the fire for the den. This doesn't have to be an external event but an internal decision to the group. But it could be an external (violent) event (i.e. they sought shelter under the snow in the ravine).
  • The rav4 are crushed under the snow.
So 3 or 4 violent events with 4 probably being run over by a vehicle.
Looks like a military exercise to me with multiple missiles. I'd like to add "or fire orbs" but the this new detail of clothing covered in orange powder and orange snow tips the balance in favour of rocket fuel.

But the more interesting question imo is what happens next. Massive expense (triple probed 1500 hectares?) to find remains that could be easily found by waiting for the summer. True some of them might have been carried downstream and lost.
Ivanov summoned to Moscow and told to stop talking about fire orbs (or else)?
On discovery of bodies, confiscation of evidence by military personnel and shutdown of civilian investigation.
30 years later, Ivanov feels it safe to talk about fire orbs (or it's a diversion).
This year, case reopened but seemingly a whitewash.

It would be very unfortunate if the hikers, were forced from the tent by a rocket, then had to split up due to acid or NOx and were then crushed under the snow by a vehicle.  That sounds like a very bad day.  Like the opposite of winning the lottery.

I think there must be a simpler explanation.  Military exercise - very possibly.  But it is more likely that whatever forced them from the tent, was the same thing that caused them to split up on the slope and the same thing that inflicted the injuries on the rav 4?

One simple question for me is why did they drop the flash light on the slope?  It must have been dark or they would not have taken it with them.  So why leave it?

Regards

Star man

October 20, 2019, 10:40:16 PM
Reply #15
Online

Nigel Evans


My view is that :-
  • They are all in the tent and then flee it together (at least 8 tracks), splitting into smaller groups (this was reported by the rescuers).
  • One group gets a bad "hit" from something (nitric acid perhaps) and Zinaida, Igor and Rustem give up on the descent.
  • The rest build a fire, drag the two Yuris to their resting place and remove their clothes.
  • The last four abandon the fire, build a den but get crushed under the snow.
This is an interesting timeline because it requires multiple violent events not just say one rocket.
Events :-
  • Causes them to flee the tent.
  • Causes Zina, Igor, Rustem to just give up on the slope but the rav4 remain able bodied. Possible that the 2 Yuris experience the same event but they make it to the cedar before giving up.
  • Something causes the rav 4 to abandon the fire for the den. This doesn't have to be an external event but an internal decision to the group. But it could be an external (violent) event (i.e. they sought shelter under the snow in the ravine).
  • The rav4 are crushed under the snow.
So 3 or 4 violent events with 4 probably being run over by a vehicle.
Looks like a military exercise to me with multiple missiles. I'd like to add "or fire orbs" but the this new detail of clothing covered in orange powder and orange snow tips the balance in favour of rocket fuel.

But the more interesting question imo is what happens next. Massive expense (triple probed 1500 hectares?) to find remains that could be easily found by waiting for the summer. True some of them might have been carried downstream and lost.
Ivanov summoned to Moscow and told to stop talking about fire orbs (or else)?
On discovery of bodies, confiscation of evidence by military personnel and shutdown of civilian investigation.
30 years later, Ivanov feels it safe to talk about fire orbs (or it's a diversion).
This year, case reopened but seemingly a whitewash.

It would be very unfortunate if the hikers, were forced from the tent by a rocket, then had to split up due to acid or NOx and were then crushed under the snow by a vehicle.  That sounds like a very bad day.  Like the opposite of winning the lottery.

I think there must be a simpler explanation.  Military exercise - very possibly.  But it is more likely that whatever forced them from the tent, was the same thing that caused them to split up on the slope and the same thing that inflicted the injuries on the rav 4?

One simple question for me is why did they drop the flash light on the slope?  It must have been dark or they would not have taken it with them.  So why leave it?

Regards

Star man
/
Yes military exercise is a good explanation. Except for there had to be a massive cleanup? But why not just close the area, put it off limits?
They left the flashlight as a beacon for the return is the best explanation.

October 21, 2019, 06:43:35 AM
Reply #16

tekumze

Guest
Eduard Tumanov, Doctor of forensics at Pirogov Russian National Research Medical University, said:



 “The injuries described in the Dyatlov forensic medical report are identical to the ones represented here on these dummies, which gives use reason to assume that these injuries could be received in self defence.”
“Dyatlov. He has small grazes on his face, the protruding parts of his face, which allows us to suppose that they could have been caused by him falling face first in the snow.

“These abrasions happened because his legs were tied together with something. They were either handcuffed or shackled, or bound with some sort of rope, because, in the cold, rope freezes up and becomes fairly solid.

“There is a very interesting note in the forensic medical report: there are red-brown coloured grazes and indentations around the front, side and rear surfaces of both ankles.

“It’s interesting that he has abrasions on his metacarpophalangeal joints, which are here. What does this mean? He hit his hands against something or someone. Judging by everything, there was a fight.”

"So they light a fire and take their clothes off to dry them, at which point something or someone terrifies them and they start to climb up the cedar tree, because they have injuries consistent with climbing up a tree trunk.

"Straight away we can rule out death by avalanche, explosion, we can rule out chemical weapons, nuclear weapons, electromagnetic weapons, etc.

"The theory that animals attacked, bears, wolverines, etc...there are no injuries consistent with an animal attack.

"Judging by the chaotic nature of the injuries, variety, would suggest that there was not one single object that would have caused these injuries to everyone.

"In summary, one could assert that someone attacked them, someone without a firearm, or at least they didn’t use it, without a knife, or they didn’t use it, all the injuries were caused exclusively by hard, blunt objects.

"They were probably inflicted by a human hand."

 "They climbed up the cedar. They’re all scratched up. One of them has a piece of finger they’ve bitten off in their mouth. It remained in his mouth, he bit his finger off.

"So he died, it’s clear he bit his finger off because he was in agony, otherwise, why else would you bite your own finger off? He died there as a result of this pain.

"When they analysed burns on his leg, they once thought that he fell and was burnt, but the burn did not show this. The person was either hung above the fire or they took a log from the fire and burned him on the cedar from below. Can you imagine this? It’s unusual to say the least."
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

According to Mr Tumanov's statements I asked the question to our medical forensic experts from the Ljubljana Institute of Criminology, whether we would then exclude the possibility of injuries due to the rocket explosion. The answer was: " Not at all. Because we do know explosive devices that act on the body merely as an implosion and cause only internal injuries."

In light of all that is known to the public so far, we are slowly leaning towards the fact that there were no alien, extraterrestrial, paranormal phenomena ... but merely as throughout the whole history of civilization, an interhuman conflict concealed by the authorities at the time in 1959. Probably because of things screwed up by the military. And authorities of today has no  interests to discover all the facts that happened.


October 21, 2019, 12:28:43 PM
Reply #17
Online

Nigel Evans


Dyatlov's ankles - Google image "snowy brambles" and remember Igor is the only one to clearly die of hypothermia which means he could have been staggering along with little concern for injury.
Yuri K's burn - there are lots of other reasons, acid splash, electric discharge, lying unconscious with his leg in the fire.
This guy is too constructive. I'd want to see a more open mind.




October 22, 2019, 03:21:24 PM
Reply #18
Offline

Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
My view is that :-
  • They are all in the tent and then flee it together (at least 8 tracks), splitting into smaller groups (this was reported by the rescuers).
  • One group gets a bad "hit" from something (nitric acid perhaps) and Zinaida, Igor and Rustem give up on the descent.
  • The rest build a fire, drag the two Yuris to their resting place and remove their clothes.
  • The last four abandon the fire, build a den but get crushed under the snow.
This is an interesting timeline because it requires multiple violent events not just say one rocket.
Events :-
  • Causes them to flee the tent.
  • Causes Zina, Igor, Rustem to just give up on the slope but the rav4 remain able bodied. Possible that the 2 Yuris experience the same event but they make it to the cedar before giving up.
  • Something causes the rav 4 to abandon the fire for the den. This doesn't have to be an external event but an internal decision to the group. But it could be an external (violent) event (i.e. they sought shelter under the snow in the ravine).
  • The rav4 are crushed under the snow.
So 3 or 4 violent events with 4 probably being run over by a vehicle.
Looks like a military exercise to me with multiple missiles. I'd like to add "or fire orbs" but the this new detail of clothing covered in orange powder and orange snow tips the balance in favour of rocket fuel.

But the more interesting question imo is what happens next. Massive expense (triple probed 1500 hectares?) to find remains that could be easily found by waiting for the summer. True some of them might have been carried downstream and lost.
Ivanov summoned to Moscow and told to stop talking about fire orbs (or else)?
On discovery of bodies, confiscation of evidence by military personnel and shutdown of civilian investigation.
30 years later, Ivanov feels it safe to talk about fire orbs (or it's a diversion).
This year, case reopened but seemingly a whitewash.

It would be very unfortunate if the hikers, were forced from the tent by a rocket, then had to split up due to acid or NOx and were then crushed under the snow by a vehicle.  That sounds like a very bad day.  Like the opposite of winning the lottery.

I think there must be a simpler explanation.  Military exercise - very possibly.  But it is more likely that whatever forced them from the tent, was the same thing that caused them to split up on the slope and the same thing that inflicted the injuries on the rav 4?

One simple question for me is why did they drop the flash light on the slope?  It must have been dark or they would not have taken it with them.  So why leave it?

Regards

Star man
/
Yes military exercise is a good explanation. Except for there had to be a massive cleanup? But why not just close the area, put it off limits?
They left the flashlight as a beacon for the return is the best explanation.

Did they leave the flashlight as a beacon?  The second flashlight was found about 450 metres from the tent on the slope.  My understanding is that it was switched off and still worked when found by the search team.  On the Dyatlov web site it says that it was switched on the batteries were spent.  Nigel you pointed out to me that this was a mistake in the records.  The flashlight was switched off so could not be used as a beacon.

One other point.  Why would you leave your only flashlight on the slope as a beacon anyway.  It was dark.  They took itmwi them to help them see.  The slope was dangerous.  Why would you leave your only flashlight?

Regards

Star man

October 22, 2019, 03:37:02 PM
Reply #19
Offline

Star man

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Dyatlov's ankles - Google image "snowy brambles" and remember Igor is the only one to clearly die of hypothermia which means he could have been staggering along with little concern for injury.
Yuri K's burn - there are lots of other reasons, acid splash, electric discharge, lying unconscious with his leg in the fire.
This guy is too constructive. I'd want to see a more open mind.

Agreed.  Dyatlov's ankles are the only ones reported to have marks/abrasions that may have indicated restraints.  But what about his wrists?  None of the others had marks indicating any kind of restraint that we know of.  If they had been restrained then we would expect more evidence.

Saying that I agree with Tumanov that they scrambled up the tree in desperation to escape and hide.  The burns were probably sustained after descending the tree and when the fire was lit in a disparate attempt to warm up, or after they had died when their friends moved them close to the fire.

Tumanov suggests that the injuries were caused by hand or blunt instruments and that'd they had guns or knives they didn't use them.  But the forces required to cause those flail chest injuries are very significant and unlikely to be capable for a human with either hand or blunt object.

Regards

Star man

October 22, 2019, 06:09:42 PM
Reply #20
Offline

gypsy


Tumanov suggests that the injuries were caused by hand or blunt instruments and that'd they had guns or knives they didn't use them.  But the forces required to cause those flail chest injuries are very significant and unlikely to be capable for a human with either hand or blunt object.

Regards

Star man

You know I'm gonna repeat myself, but this is highly debatable unless we know the exact mechanism of those 'alleged' blunt instrument trauma. There are combat techniques that I might be or might not be aware of which allow inflicting certain injuries with much less force compared to what is normally expected. That requires thorough forensic analysis and a reconstruction of all possible options how to cause those injuries.

I really don't want to jump to conclusions here. I can imagine what sort of people would be able to provide us with better answers... Like trauma surgeons, close combat trainers, martial artists etc... The question is why those are not involved the supposed investigation instead of focusing on avalanche of some sort that just did not occur and even if it did, it would not lead to demise of 9 people. It would be a good idea to gather a set of questions and try to find people with expert answers.

October 22, 2019, 08:07:19 PM
Reply #21
Offline

Spygirl 1


Greetings-

Haven't quite figured out how to post here. I meant the following to be a reply to Gypsy's post. Maybe someone will give me guidance here.

So, Gypsy, about your last post: I would like to direct you to Russian criminologist Anton Larkin.

This past February he was featured on the Russian television program called "Perebal Dyatlov".

He is of the same opinion of Criminologist  Eduardo Tumerov.

As far as an expert I do consider myself as one due to 28 years as a US Federal Agent. My entire career was in forensics. I worked at a private forensics firm 5 years after that.

Several have stated on this forum they're not so hip about Turmerov. I have studied Tumerov by his body language. My conclusion is he is sincere but very frustrated by no real investigation so he comes across as terse.

I find these two criminologists along with Yuri Kuntsevich, Chairman Dyatlov Pass by far the most credible of all involved.

Because of my career I survived one of the deadliest terrorist bombings ever known to man. I can promise you the injuries to these promising 9 young people is very much what might be expected from an explosion or by blunt force trauma.

If the current autopsies are to be believed, all documented findings would be compatible with blast injuries.

Many do not realize what happens mentally to someone close to an big explosion. The body goes into rhabdomyolysis which causes SEVERE CONFUSION.

I've had experience with this evil malady. The confusion is such you don't even know your name or which way to safety. Could definitely be the case here.

I'm not certain I believe that an explosion in & of itself can explain everything. Just putting it forward.

My current overall thoughts of this case: it will never be solved on that mountain. Rather only by exhumations which two weeks ago Igor's sister, Tatyana called for.

I have contacted this site's moderator to see if permissible to post the two videos I have referred to.

Best--
Spygirl 1
« Last Edit: October 22, 2019, 09:59:17 PM by Spygirl 1 »

October 22, 2019, 09:37:48 PM
Reply #22
Offline

jarrfan


Dear Spygirl: Have you looked at the case file of Buryatia Dyatlov Pass incident in 1993? It is very interesting that they experienced such confusion and ears bleeding, etc., but clearly from the one survivor there were no explosions, it all just happened spontaneously. So as far as an explosion, I don't think they found any evidence of such at the Dyatlov pass incident in 1959, or none that they confessed to..

October 23, 2019, 08:14:44 AM
Reply #23
Offline

Spygirl 1


Dear Spygirl: Have you looked at the case file of Buryatia Dyatlov Pass incident in 1993? It is very interesting that they experienced such confusion and ears bleeding, etc., but clearly from the one survivor there were no explosions, it all just happened spontaneously. So as far as an explosion, I don't think they found any evidence of such at the Dyatlov pass incident in 1959, or none that they confessed to..

Evidence?? They had three years to clean it up!

You'd be amazed at the extent govt/military/nefarious folks go to to create cover-ups.  This is why until a TRUE forensic investigation is done there will be no closure.

How did we (forensic agents) solve these cover-ups? Simply by applying the golden rule of forensics: YOU CAN'T MAKE SENSE OUT OF NONSENSE!! And man, does that ever apply here.

And to be clear-- my bombing experience it sounded to me no louder than like when a bird accidentally hits a window.

I don't believe any possible  explosion in this case would have been massive. Maybe firing of many RPG's or something?

I personally worked 2 cases in my career of several young people who walked up on something they shouldn't have seen. Both cases the bodies were found in mysterious ways.
 
I truly believe that's what happened here.

Sincerely-
Spygirl 1

October 23, 2019, 09:43:49 AM
Reply #24
Offline

jarrfan


Dear Spygirl: Yes, perhaps they had 3 years to cover it up. There is no discussion of activity in the area after the disaster. The area was blocked off. Even if it were only civilians blocked out of the area, the path to the pass has to run through 2 small towns and the people who resided there made no mention of military crews going up there. I may be wrong, but if there was any clean up by military it had to have been done when it happened. Did you read the Buryatia Dyatlov pass incident?

October 23, 2019, 11:35:12 AM
Reply #25
Offline

Spygirl 1


Dear Spygirl: Yes, perhaps they had 3 years to cover it up. There is no discussion of activity in the area after the disaster. The area was blocked off. Even if it were only civilians blocked out of the area, the path to the pass has to run through 2 small towns and the people who resided there made no mention of military crews going up there. I may be wrong, but if there was any clean up by military it had to have been done when it happened. Did you read the Buryatia Dyatlov pass incident?

Well, my sincerest thanks for directing me to the Buryatia Dayatlov Pass Incident. I was like a dog with a bone!!

Respectfully, I'm not sure of the point. It appears the leader of this hiking group believed a little too much in her own abilities.

The group started out with not enough warm clothing, food, or adequate shelter.

IMO altitude sickness may be the cause of so much confusion when  mixed with exhaustion & hunger.

In contrast,  by all accounts Igor was an excellent leader & hiker. It appears he & the others prepared extremely well for the excursion, even including a stove.

The main difference is the Buryatia groups' injuries could easily be accounted for. Unlike the Dyatlov 9, there is no crushed ribs or skull fractures.

Regards--
Spygir. 1






« Last Edit: October 23, 2019, 11:41:35 AM by Spygirl 1 »

October 23, 2019, 11:39:14 AM
Reply #26
Offline

WAB


Greetings-

Dear Spygirl 1 I welcome you too!
Unfortunately, I did not write for a long time here and anywhere more, therefore I answer only one you message.
As I have lot information on these questions from “the first sources”, I will try answer for your questions.

Haven't quite figured out how to post here. I meant the following to be a reply to Gypsy's post. Maybe someone will give me guidance here.

Certainly, I am not be the moderator in this forum, but I think that all questions should be structured strictly to themes. How much I have understood speech here goes about interpretation of the information about Dyatlov group and similar cases in the Russian television shows.
I should declare that it is not necessary trust to this shows, as to sources serious and trustworthy information. I think that it concerns not only the Russian mass-media. It is the practice extended in the world when mass-media start to focus attention on small details which are not of great importance. The facts and the information which can destroy nonexistent sensation are simultaneously ignored or are specially suppressed, but are truth.

So, Gypsy, about your last post: I would like to direct you to Russian criminologist Anton Larkin.

This past February he was featured on the Russian television program called "Perebal Dyatlov".

He is of the same opinion of Criminologist  Eduardo Tumerov.

I saw this show in source language (it is my native language) and have not found there what that of the basic thoughts concerning the happened. Besides, I am personally also well familiar with Edward Tumanov. However it is not necessary name he on the Latin American dialect.   He, of course, will not take offence, but will smile about it.  grin1
By the way, he is not the criminologist, and he is the doctor-coroner.  grin1
Unfortunately, Edward Tumanov though is the good expert, but he has not practice in studying about bodies which are analogue of that, and it was in all cases which are discussed:
1.The Case from Igor Dyatlov group to Northern Ural Mountains,
2.The Case from Ludmila Korovina group in Hamar-Daban Mountains, nearby Baikal lakes,
3.The Case with students group from Kuibyshev (Samara) city in Kola peninsula.
His explanations this traumas are based on practice as city coroner, therefore do not consider specificity of extreme conditions of winter travel. Unfortunately regular medical researches similar to the specified cases, are not present failures. It occurs that they are very separated on time and district arrangement. And it is because they were spent by different doctors. Therefore this information could not be saved up and systematised as the scientific context. Unfortunately the medicine, it not mathematics and not physics, therefore there all is defined only by analogy to other cases and if they are not familiar to the expert, it means can be mistaken in estimations. As it is occurs, if it is required in mass-media for entertainment events.

As far as an expert I do consider myself as one due to 28 years as a US Federal Agent. My entire career was in forensics. I worked at a private forensics firm 5 years after that.

It is very well, however it were required estimations only on the basis of absolutely authentic and unequivocal information there where you worked. I hope, what I am not mistaken in this statement? Therefore I assure you that the information from mass-media about these cases is not absolutely authentic. I know it on the basis of that well I know all these cases, and in case #3, I am is the only thing (for this time) the expert from those who knew all from the beginning to the end, and I is still the live expert now.

Several have stated on this forum they're not so hip about Turmerov. I have studied Tumerov by his body language. My conclusion is he is sincere but very frustrated by no real investigation so he comes across as terse.

Yes, I with you in it agree, as I to he know, as personally.

I find these two criminologists along with Yuri Kuntsevich, Chairman Dyatlov Pass by far the most credible of all involved.

In this statement I do not agree with you, almost completely. I know Yury Kuntsevich very much for long time and much better than Edward Tumanov, but I know as that Yury Kuntsevich though is the good organizer of studying of case Dyatlov group, but he speaks much in not that party, concerning the reasons of this case. It occurs because at it insufficient formation and abstract preparation in technical (especially military and connected with it) field, and mass-media demand the comment which have sensation. Unfortunately he often agrees on it. Though many experts who in course of this case, with it do not agree completely for him. But here it is necessary consider each case such the comment separately and carefully.
It is necessary notice that it has brought very big advantage that has created “the Font of memory Dyatlov group” and regularly is engaged in that supports memory of this group. These are two different parties in approach to true understanding of that has occurred to Dyatlov group.
 
Because of my career I survived one of the deadliest terrorist bombings ever known to man. I can promise you the injuries to these promising 9 young people is very much what might be expected from an explosion or by blunt force trauma.

In this statement I with you do not agree completely as. And I am professionally was engaged in such division of science, as biomechanics of shock influences to body human. Simultaneously I have experience of supervision of fighting traumas, including from explosions of different origin: fragmental, demolition, volume explosion. It was be in real fighting conditions.
All traumas of Dyatlov group have as shock origin, that is from blow about different subjects of environment. These traumas concern 3 groups (at 4 persons). Other participants of Dyatlov group no have what that of serious traumas. That all coroner has described as is small damages, characteristic for stay of these people in environment, including in extreme conditions. Besides, part of these traumas have a posthumous origin. It was me discuss with different doctors, including Edward Tumanov. He has agreed with some my statements.

If the current autopsies are to be believed, all documented findings would be compatible with blast injuries.

No comment… nea1

Many do not realize what happens mentally to someone close to an big explosion. The body goes into rhabdomyolysis which causes SEVERE CONFUSION.

I've had experience with this evil malady. The confusion is such you don't even know your name or which way to safety. Could definitely be the case here.

I'm not certain I believe that an explosion in & of itself can explain everything. Just putting it forward.

It so confirm it is your right. However here it is necessary to consider many details, including what are called "small". If it analysed and these details “the explosion theory” does not turn out in any way in reality …

My current overall thoughts of this case: it will never be solved on that mountain. Rather only by exhumations which two weeks ago Igor's sister, Tatyana called for.

I am in course of these events, however I do not consider it deserving the necessary attention. As far as I know, this requirement is based on belief of the lawyer operating now and correspondents of the newspaper which write to theme about “ case Dyatlov group”.
As I think, this action is absolutely useless, because, those who it offers do not know precisely that they want have result of it though everyone holds the personal thoughts. But these thoughts are not directed advancement to true, and have only personal intentions and interests.
That was at exhumation of a body Simeon Zolotaryov in April, 12, 2019. And that are proves to true It.
The newspaper has written about it many articles. There were many different conversations, DNA examination has given 3 different results (because wrong methods of comparison have originally been chosen), there get were many new questions (and very not clear and indistinct on sense) …
As result there was nothing new or necessary for advancement to true. If there will be new exhumation all these ambiguities should be increased on “N”. What is it will be possible have in this case?
As is in Christian custom it is better touch not body deceased what disturb not their soul. Though I am not is religious believing person, but I consider necessary with respect to concern national traditions of those places where all it has occurred.

I have contacted this site's moderator to see if permissible to post the two videos I have referred to.

Even if it will not resolve here, I with the big curiosity would read everything that you write about it.
It is possible send it to the my e-mail (in the personal message I will send the address). In advance I thank you for it. I promise not place any comments in forums or other publications, without your consent to it.
Thank you for your message write.

October 23, 2019, 11:43:11 AM
Reply #27
Offline

WAB


Dear Spygirl: Have you looked at the case file of Buryatia Dyatlov Pass incident in 1993? It is very interesting that they experienced such confusion and ears bleeding, etc., but clearly from the one survivor there were no explosions, it all just happened spontaneously.

I so have understood, in the previous message of anything have not been written about the case from Ludmila Korovina group in Hamar-Daban Mountains, nearby Baikal lakes in 1993.
But I can add about this case.
I, through my friends, from the Petropalovsk-Kazakh-city (the name “ Petropalovsk-city” in Russia is on Kamchatka) which were in this club and who knew itself Ludmila Korovina, was interested this case. Under the available analyses of this case it turns out so that with the greatest probability, all it has occurred because of the superfluous use natural stimulators of activity as plant “the Gold root” (or Rhodíola rósea in a Latin transcription - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhodiola_rosea ). It is some version of root of "Hzen-Shen" (or Pánax in a Latin transcription - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panax ).
At the big physical activities and overdose of this preparation (for example, at infuse it together with tea on considerable quantity) at first there comes increase in forces (probably only so it seems to the person), and then, at deterioration of external conditions and at local deficiency of food (for example: there was no food at mornings till the evening) there can come similar condition as was in this group. Valentina Utochenko (she remained it is live) probably it did not use this stimulator together with everything, or used it in very small quantity, therefore it did not have such very strongly pronounced phenomena.
Anyway, in that club tried use this preparation. It grows in Siberia. It is lot of it on Altai Mountains, on Sayan Mountains and on Hamar-Daban Mountains.
I was about that place where it has occurred. Only it was in the winter and for 17 years earlier. The Environment does not give the grounds consider that it is connected with what that environment conditions. The analysis of the known natural phenomena does not give the grounds so think.

So as far as an explosion, I don't think they found any evidence of such at the Dyatlov pass incident in 1959, or none that they confessed to..

You are right absolutely in it. At my visitings of this place (Dyatlov pass) it was not revealed even the slightest signs of any explosions. Usually traces of any explosion very well are appreciable.
PS. We have far distracted from theme which is designated in heading. I suggest pass to corresponding section further.

October 23, 2019, 11:46:58 AM
Reply #28
Offline

WAB


Dear Spygirl: Have you looked at the case file of Buryatia Dyatlov Pass incident in 1993? It is very interesting that they experienced such confusion and ears bleeding, etc., but clearly from the one survivor there were no explosions, it all just happened spontaneously. So as far as an explosion, I don't think they found any evidence of such at the Dyatlov pass incident in 1959, or none that they confessed to..
=============================

Evidence?? They had three years to clean it up!

About what you speak? About what “three years” there is conversation? That that here not so in knowledge of the true facts …

You'd be amazed at the extent govt/military/nefarious folks go to to create cover-ups.  This is why until a TRUE forensic investigation is done there will be no closure.

How did we (forensic agents) solve these cover-ups? Simply by applying the golden rule of forensics: YOU CAN'T MAKE SENSE OUT OF NONSENSE!! And man, does that ever apply here.

And to be clear-- my bombing experience it sounded to me no louder than like when a bird accidentally hits a window.

I don't believe any possible  explosion in this case would have been massive. Maybe firing of many RPG's or something?

I personally worked 2 cases in my career of several young people who walked up on something they shouldn't have seen. Both cases the bodies were found in mysterious ways.
 
I truly believe that's what happened here.

You can assume anything you like, however my experience with work only with indisputable facts in view of that, says what it is not necessary search for a black cat in a dark room … as ancient Chinese philosopher spoke about it (Confucius https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucius ) about 2.5 thousand years ago.
What reach trues it would be necessary work with the confirmed facts, instead of with thought up. Especially it concerns "facts" which think out. And which do not prove be true even at the minimum acquaintance with the invoice.
As I think it.  grin1

October 23, 2019, 11:55:31 AM
Reply #29
Offline

WAB


Dear Spygirl: Yes, perhaps they had 3 years to cover it up. There is no discussion of activity in the area after the disaster.

Whether there is any information about "accident"? It should be known before to assume that was that "it is hidden". Meanwhile, except conversations on it there is nothing. Even the reasons for this "accident". What real data you have about it? Only not hearings, bat it is real information …
I mean not case Dyatlov group, and what that technical accident on this place. At that time, in that place …

The area was blocked off. Even if it were only civilians blocked out of the area, the path to the pass has to run through 2 small towns and the people who resided there made no mention of military crews going up there.

“The area has been blocked” only conditionally and for groups which there made official sports travel. Other groups and local residents (for example - Mansi) went there without any obstacles. Anybody at that time did not mention about military crews if it did not concern crews of military helicopters which took part in search. Other military men had be absolutely nothing do there.

I may be wrong, but if there was any clean up by military it had to have been done when it happened.

Naturally it so exists. But about it there is no information, except conversations later 50 … 60 years ago after events.

Did you read the Buryatia Dyatlov pass incident?

It is question not to me, but I have already answered it in the previous message.