Contaminated theory and a 2nd cave- in.

[Tim]

No theory has been contaminated more than the avelanche theory but without clear evidence it is logical to assume this is impossible, but hold on, There is clear evidence that the tent was set up adjacent a wall, It can be agreed upon that the last two photos were of them preparing the tent. The contamination begins with the total disregarding of the photos to what is perfectly clear. The elevation at the top of the wall is higher than the interior floor of the tent ,What has never been considered ,is the gale force wind assisted by gravity causing a snow wall cave in.  Mountaineering 101 Build a snow wall for protection, this is not a conventional snow wall it is a wall from snow pushed down and built up from above. In real time it would look like this...Once they settled in for dinner the unthinkable happened ,they found themselves under a blanket of snow and chunks of ice which left them stunned. After a few of the men cut themselves out from under the snow they helped the others out. Hear me out, What I propose is that  as soon as they were out, another cave in happens cutting off access back into the tent to retrieve the gear. They are out in the elements again exposed in the deadliest weather a human could be in. Their hands are freezing trying to dig through the snow which really isn't very deep, but the conditions accelerate their decision to move to the trees..Their moving as fast as they can against the gale force winds and remarkably they make it fairly quick or they surely would of died on the slope down. Other than at gun point there is no other plasuable reason for them to have left the tent., but I like this theory because it is scientifically plausible. Continue reading below.
The fatal mistake occurs by compacting the snow around the tent first which dose not allow for any additional snow to stick, making it easy  for the gale force winds to blow off the now semi solid wall. The gale force winds and  gravity do the rest to seal their fates. Zinas bruising is from a direct impact of the wall of ice and snow.

[sarapuk]

No theory has been contaminated more than the avelanche theory but without clear evidence it is logical to assume this is impossible, but hold on, There is clear evidence that the tent was set up adjacent a wall, It can be agreed upon that the last two photos were of them preparing the tent. The contamination begins with the total disregarding of the photos to what is perfectly clear. The elevation at the top of the wall is higher than the interior floor of the tent ,What has never been considered ,is the gale force wind assisted by gravity causing a snow wall cave in.  Mountaineering 101 Build a snow wall for protection, this is not a conventional snow wall it is a wall from snow pushed down and built up from above. In real time it would look like this...Once they settled in for dinner the unthinkable happened ,they found themselves under a blanket of snow and chunks of ice which left them stunned. After a few of the men cut themselves out from under the snow they helped the others out. Hear me out, What I propose is that  as soon as they were out, another cave in happens cutting off access back into the tent to retrieve the gear. They are out in the elements again exposed in the deadliest weather a human could be in. Their hands are freezing trying to dig through the snow which really isn't very deep, but the conditions accelerate their decision to move to the trees..Their moving as fast as they can against the gale force winds and remarkably they make it fairly quick or they surely would of died on the slope down. Other than at gun point there is no other plasuable reason for them to have left the tent., but I like this theory because it is scientifically plausible. Continue reading below.
The fatal mistake occurs by compacting the snow around the tent first which dose not allow for any additional snow to stick, making it easy  for the gale force winds to blow off the now semi solid wall. The gale force winds and  gravity do the rest to seal their fates. Zinas bruising is from a direct impact of the wall of ice and snow.

But looking at the photos taken at the time of the discovery of the tent I find it hard to believe that snow caused them to evacuate their Tent. There wasnt enough snow and it seems that an Avalanche can be ruled out.

[Tim]

Thanks for the input it is greatly appreciated. I will respond by saying that this theory is in no way related to an avalanche. The measurable chunks of snow on around the tent are big enough to take on shadows form adjacent skis.  As you probably know the tent was two tents sewn into one and from the diaries were always in need of repair. This tent was never intended for gale force winds and had no business being on the side of the-mountain. The two photos are misleading, we all assume that is is a solid rock wall they are setting up against when in fact the rescuers photos show it not as high as in the two photos which means it has  more snow than rock in the photos and the skis are sticking in and staying in the heavy winds.  It is every mountaineers inclination to build in more protection especially in a tent meant for the forest.  Hypothetically speaking, if they compact the original snow around the tent and up on the wall it would harden and any new snow which is very easy to push down from above to make a considerable addition for protection would not stick and would never fall in normal conditions. We know there were gale force winds because it is impossible to make raised footprints without this much wind speed. Simply I believe there was a dual snow collapse from the wind aided by gravity and there is ample degrees for this to of happened . Then the other section of wall collapsed back onto the tent sealing off their gear...Gale force winds blew away most of the evidence. The contamination began with the very person saying the angle was not steep enough which is logical but stops anyone from pursuing a different scenario.  I like this theory because ,with no place to run and being totally exposed in a gale force wind why would anyone run into the arms of an compelling unknown force..This logically satisfies a whole hosts of questions to where others are not as persuasive.. Google gale force winds and watch someone walk in it. Thanks again for responding. Best Tim

[MDGross]

It's a mystery to me why an experienced, winter mountain hiker like Dyatlov would set up a tent in such a precarious spot. Because of the harsh weather they were behind schedule. It was a difficult hike up the mountain slope and perhaps Dyatlov didn't want to sacrifice all that effort by retreating a mile down the slope to the tree line. Or perhaps they were just too exhausted to walk down to the trees. I guess it lends some credence to Yudin's belief that the KGB executed the group earlier and then haphazardly set up the tent in a spot Dyatlov would never have chosen.
Like you, I believe a gale force wind is the culprit. I like your idea that a snow wall of sorts was blown onto the tent. They were suddenly covered with snow and the only way to get out from under the snow was to get out of the tent. Once outside the tent and in brutal conditions, they knew time was short. Dig out the tent and make it stable or move down to the trees and try to survive the night? If the four who dug out the snow den hadn't somehow fallen into the ravine, perhaps they would at least have survived the night.

[Star man]

If they thought they did not have time to get their shoes and clothes then why did Rustem put on one single boot and why was a jacket found several metres from the tent.  Did someone not have time to pick it up? 

Would they have not known that by the time they got to the trees that frost bite and hypothermia would be setting in?

Regards
Star man

[Tim]

 After reading one of your reply’s a light build went off in my head about the age old question, why they left the tent. I know for a fact a mountaineer would never cut his tent and run out into the hands of an unknown compelling force.. I explain why there would be enough snow for this to happen in the avalanche section.I had a hard time believing  sharavin  about there being no snow in the tent and that also got me thinking..stands to reason that When they cut thier way through the canvas and made their escape out of the tent and through the snow, that very snow collapsed back down on top of the good canvas essentially sealing off their access back into the tent. Now in this weather they have to remove all the snow on top of the tent that has now sandwiched the tent together.  It was a quick decision to get to the trees ASAP. I added an addendum in avalanche under contaminated theory and double wall cave in.. I really like this theory because they could not access back into the tent and had no choice but to flee and make a fire. Ps I believe the two Yuris sprinted ahead to a get the fire going. It’s what I would do. Best Tim.

[Star man]

I think your theory is worth investigating further.  But I think it needs a lot more thought and you would need to tease out some more substantial evidence.  I don’t think you have underpinned it enough yet.  Finding solid evidence is difficult for all theories.  However currently I think you have an idea - but it is based on a weak argument in that relies on these very experienced hikers making very bad decisions.  For something as simple as a snow wall collapse why would 9 fit healthy experienced hikers not be able to dig out their clothes?  How did Rustem get his single boot on inside the snow covered tent?  Why did they just leave a jacket lying around outside?

Regards
Star man

[Tim]

I found this photo and added the footprints and skis in this photo. Russia's winter starts in Dec and ends in March. It also contains sleet and ice pellets which leaves plenty of time for there to be a snow build up which is evident in the one photo of them digging out the snow and the one were the rescuers have just located it. The angle of attack above the tourist while digging out is no longer present in the rescue photo. There also is the snow boulders that are measureable and also take on the shadows of the skis. . For some unknown reason this obvious difference gets discarded which is where the contamination begins. The  rationalizing of  any slide theory stops when the avalanche theory is gospel and causes anyone from developing this theory any further. No avalanche/no slide which is a mistake.   Now Rustem was taking off his boots when it collapsed and them not knowing it wasn't an avalanche they got the hell out as fast as they could which is what I would of done. I believe another slide sealed off their access covering the whole tent. When they were out they could see enough that it was what they had built that slipped onto them and not an avalanche.   The flash light was left on the tent on porous because they had every intention of returning after they warmed themselves. Any snow on the flashlight would of been blown off by the winds...What do ya think? You are the first person to give this theory another look at...It makes sense in the whole scheme of things, though most of the evidence was blown away, but the photos are telling us something else.

[Tim]

One of the hikers could of dislodged this  wall by walking around just to go to the bathroom. Find the tend and you will probably find cuts from both sides..maybe. Someone has this tent in their basement somewhere.

[Star man]

Rustem would probably take his boots off while entering the tent but it is possible he could have been taking them off.

Given the photo of them digging the snow for the tent are you able to work the physics/forces on the snow wall and likely amount of snow that would fall?  Not an easy question given the variables but might help the argument.

Regards

Star man

[jarrfan]

The tent was kept for a while, then it was discovered it had been water damaged and had mold on it so they threw it away. The pictures are all of the proof we have about the tent and they are only one side of the tent, the front. As far as DNA, there was none kept because this was well before DNA was discovered.

[Tim]

Too bad about the tent, I would be more interested in an electron microscope scan by comparing the stretch marks on the threads more than the DNA. Which might be able to see a cave-in pattern and the cuts.

[Tim]

Working out the formula for the amount of snow is fairly simple. But  I think it important to keep the mind keenly aware of what was taking place around them while this may of been happening to them.           
 .1: Estimate the amount of snowfall that had accumulated since the beginning of winter Dec 22 ND.  up to February 1st.                                2: By using the same method they used in determining where the tent location was,  photo by photo comparison                                          3: The rescuers photo is abundantly different than the photos of them setting up the tent.  The bodies of the tourists in the photo can be measured against the Stonewall and the steeper angle that is not there anymore in the rescuers photo.. In addition the chunks of snow are measurable against the rescuers and the skis.                            4: A full section or a half of section of a wall would hurt and stun them because they now know this is a dangerous situation and thier adrenaline is pumping. I not sure an exact weight of the snow is essential, just that there is a sufficient  amount of snow that forces them out of the tent, followed by another minor slide just enough for the elements to stop thier hands from digging in even a small amount of snow.

[Star man]

So in your theory there is an initial slide of snow onto the tent that covers the hikers and they have to cut the tent to get air and escape.  Outside the weather is very bad and there is no way they could have retrieved shoes , clothing  or other gear due to the collapsed tent and weight of snow, and the panic/surprise and lack of air.  After getting everyone out there is another slide of snow onto the tent and it now looks unlikely that they will be able to remove the snow and make good the tent or retrieve further gear.  They have to make a decision quickly and they decide to decend the slope to the tree line, build a fire and shelter and wait it out until the next day.  Thibo falls and is injured and requires assistance.  The yuris and maybe Dyatlov, Zina and Rustem run on ahead because they need to build a fire quickly.  It is also a better strategy to get the fire going sooner while the slower groups descends the slope helping Thibo.  They can then look for the fire and rejoin the Yuris.  However a second disaster strikes when Lyuda and Semyon fall over a steep slope in the darkness both being severely injured.  Kolya attempts to move the now three injured people towards the fire at the cedar.  This takes some time so Dyatlov, Zina and Rustem retrace their steps looking for the other group.  They underestimate the conditions and perish.  Kolya cant move the injured all the way to the cedar so he builds a simple resting area lays the injured down and goes to the cedar only to find the Yuris have already died.  He takes what clothing he can and gives to the injured.  But the cold eventually takes them.

Regards

Star man

[Marchesk]

Kolya cant move the injured all the way to the cedar so he builds a simple resting area lays the injured down and goes to the cedar only to find the Yuris have already died.  He takes what clothing he can and gives to the injured.  But the cold eventually takes them.

Wait a second, how did the the Rav 4 end up in the creek under several meters of snow, then?

This takes some time so Dyatlov, Zina and Rustem retrace their steps looking for the other group.  They underestimate the conditions and perish.

I just don't believe that those three would die that quickly, or underestimate conditions to that extent.

[Star man]

Kolya cant move the injured all the way to the cedar so he builds a simple resting area lays the injured down and goes to the cedar only to find the Yuris have already died.  He takes what clothing he can and gives to the injured.  But the cold eventually takes them.

Wait a second, how did the the Rav 4 end up in the creek under several meters of snow, then?

This takes some time so Dyatlov, Zina and Rustem retrace their steps looking for the other group.  They underestimate the conditions and perish.

I just don't believe that those three would die that quickly, or underestimate conditions to that extent.

I would not disagree with your points.  I am just trying to understand Tim’s theory and how it would play out.

Regards

Star man

[Tim]

Star Man , You say it much better than I could , on the whole, yes. It never occurred to me though "The lack of oxygen "as you state is brilliant and even adds to the foundation of this theory. For some years now I have always said a snow wall cave-in but could never get any farther until I read one of your firsts correspondence to me. It was the word "Nada" in one of your reply's that the words, "They would of if they could of" quoting myself, They were sandwiched out of the tent by either one or two cave-in, which would in reality, in normal winter weather would be shocking at first but funny around a campfire later.   One of the reasons I ruled out murder not because the lack of footprints, but because no one knew exactly  where they were, Plus, there  were much better places to get rid of these pesky kids if I was following them to kill them. We know that no Nation would never launch in inclement weather for testing a rocket for obvious reasons, money being the first and second the data would be scattered and uncontrolled. We also know that one cannot photo anything in the sky in a snow storm which from their photos was taking place. Lastly, I've always maintained that if we can find a logical answer why they left the tent everything else will fall into place. In the documentary "The Proof" Princeton professor Andrew Wiles as a 10 year boy read Fermat's last theorem in a math book that no one for over three hundred years could never find a proof to (a square + b square= Z square) when substituting any whole number, one could never find a proof to this ,but ,Fermat said that he had found one and wrote it just in the margin of his book which was lost. Everyone loves a challenge and Dyatlov is just one of those challenges. Professor Wiles did eventually find a proof, but it is a 20th century proof and Fermat could  never of had this proof. This documentary I believe can be found on youtube....The Proof. BestTtim   

[Tim]

Without oxygen and  blood pumping , the human body does not stand a chance against the elements, especially under pressure over a period of time. If we put the two Yuri's  in the ravine with the other 4 their bodies would show similar injuries. And the reverse is the same but their bodies probably would of been found together and  frozen. What I mean is that the corner made his best assessment at the time and from his report has contributed to the mystery or contaminated it for all of us.

[Tim]

I also initially thought that Luda climbed over and away from the others because they were dead.

[Star man]

Star Man , You say it much better than I could , on the whole, yes. It never occurred to me though "The lack of oxygen "as you state is brilliant and even adds to the foundation of this theory. For some years now I have always said a snow wall cave-in but could never get any farther until I read one of your firsts correspondence to me. It was the word "Nada" in one of your reply's that the words, "They would of if they could of" quoting myself, They were sandwiched out of the tent by either one or two cave-in, which would in reality, in normal winter weather would be shocking at first but funny around a campfire later.   One of the reasons I ruled out murder not because the lack of footprints, but because no one knew exactly  where they were, Plus, there  were much better places to get rid of these pesky kids if I was following them to kill them. We know that no Nation would never launch in inclement weather for testing a rocket for obvious reasons, money being the first and second the data would be scattered and uncontrolled. We also know that one cannot photo anything in the sky in a snow storm which from their photos was taking place. Lastly, I've always maintained that if we can find a logical answer why they left the tent everything else will fall into place. In the documentary "The Proof" Princeton professor Andrew Wiles as a 10 year boy read Fermat's last theorem in a math book that no one for over three hundred years could never find a proof to (a square + b square= Z square) when substituting any whole number, one could never find a proof to this ,but ,Fermat said that he had found one and wrote it just in the margin of his book which was lost. Everyone loves a challenge and Dyatlov is just one of those challenges. Professor Wiles did eventually find a proof, but it is a 20th century proof and Fermat could  never of had this proof. This documentary I believe can be found on youtube....The Proof. BestTtim

Your theory is relatively simple and potentially credible which makes it interesting.  Proving it is the difficult thing as with all of them.  As you refer to Fermat’s theorem, an interesting philosophical point is that you don’t need to understand Einstein’s theory of general relativity to know that every time you drop something it “almost” certainly likely to fall.  A 4 year old child can tell you that.  I say almost as I am sure you are aware of you did happen to be a lift in free fall and dropped something it would not fall.  Fermat had probably tested his assumption many times and simply was confident he was right.  He was unlikely to have attempted to find the general proof.

Regards
Star man

[Tim]

Thank You Star Man,  you are the only one who has responded positively  to this "If they could of they would of" Double slide" theory is by first looking at the Ural's themselves. For millions of years nothing has happened in this exact spot of any significance to humans in any written record and nothing will happen of any significance in millions more years. So what is different for 2 days in February? Nothing...on Feb 1 and 2 no one knew exactly where they were and if some one wanted them dead there was easier places to do it.. Government rocket test because of funding are never launched in gale force winds for obvious reasons. No photos could be taken at night either. If the photos of them setting up the tent were not taken, then we are left with only rescuers photo of the area and this case is at a dead end. The photos are conclusive enough in my mind for there to be enough snow to have collapsed onto them to initially shock them..A few scenerios can be made here. They were not aware of exactly what was happening to them and decided it was dangerous to try and dig through the snow.  Or they tried and the elements forced them to the forest...Best Tim

[Star man]

Thank You Star Man,  you are the only one who has responded positively  to this "If they could of they would of" Double slide" theory is by first looking at the Ural's themselves. For millions of years nothing has happened in this exact spot of any significance to humans in any written record and nothing will happen of any significance in millions more years. So what is different for 2 days in February? Nothing...on Feb 1 and 2 no one knew exactly where they were and if some one wanted them dead there was easier places to do it.. Government rocket test because of funding are never launched in gale force winds for obvious reasons. No photos could be taken at night either. If the photos of them setting up the tent were not taken, then we are left with only rescuers photo of the area and this case is at a dead end. The photos are conclusive enough in my mind for there to be enough snow to have collapsed onto them to initially shock them..A few scenerios can be made here. They were not aware of exactly what was happening to them and decided it was dangerous to try and dig through the snow.  Or they tried and the elements forced them to the forest...Best Tim

I don't think that they were murdered.  A simple explanation would seem sensible.  The problem is explaining some of the specific details and correlating them with your theory..  there is a section on specific details in the general discussion that I started some time ago that might be worth a read for you.

WAB I think has a theory about the circumstances that led to their demise which is based on them leaving the tent as a result of the effects of infra sound, rather than snow slide and the circumstances leading to the eventual deaths.  The events he describes after they leave the tent is similar to those I posted above and are very credible.  Worth a read.  WAB has a lot of experience and knowledge of the dpi.

I have also been looking into the Yeti theory which although may seem "off piste" is quite interesting.  Read the Exploring the yeti theory" thread if you are interested.

Regards

Star man

[Tim]

Star Man, I shall read your efforts and bounce them off my brain My first thoughts on  Infra theory for me doesn't fit the total narrative. First their adrenaline is starting to pump, they would immediately cover their ears and some of the men would investigate before making everyone run away from their lifeboat. only if they set up accidently on a snow covered train track with a snowplow train barreling down on them would ever leave the safety of their tent.  I am all things Yeti all the time, but I think Yetis are afraid of humans, I have a T-shirt that has a picture of a Yeti on it  and a caption Hide and seek champion. I hope it is the yeti though that would be one for the history books.  best Tim.

[Tim]

Star Man, I was born with and incredible eye for patterns and detail. In the square is a reasonable facsimile side Portrait of Stalin looking back at the tourists in the stream on a rock.  It was the first thing I noticed when I first looked at this photo years ago.  It means nothing but that is weird.

[Star man]

Star Man, I was born with and incredible eye for patterns and detail. In the square is a reasonable facsimile side Portrait of Stalin looking back at the tourists in the stream on a rock.  It was the first thing I noticed when I first looked at this photo years ago.  It means nothing but that is weird.

Pattern recognition is a useful skill. I see the face, but as you say it is probably nothing of importance.  Humans are programmed to see faces, even from random shapes.

Regards
Star man

[Tim]

Star Man, I will send one set of photos at a time laying out my case. In the photos with the 3 red x's that is establishing ground level, where would we insert those 3 red x's, back packs and skis into the two photos of the digging out for level ground.  I just started reading your other theories....

[Tim]

The weight of the snow pulled off the tent from the skis. With the outlining of the tent, the snow and chunks of snow came from somewhere.

[Tim]

There is plenty of evidence that a lot of snow had fallen

[Tim]

Why are they smiling?
[/u

[Star man]

Star Man, I will send one set of photos at a time laying out my case. In the photos with the 3 red x's that is establishing ground level, where would we insert those 3 red x's, back packs and skis into the two photos of the digging out for level ground.  I just started reading your other theories....

Ok.  To evaluate the potential for a localised snow slide or snow wall collapse it seems to me that there may be a need to do some research into the required conditions.  Unless you already have expert knowledge on this?  Unfortunately I am not an expert on snow.

The photo of the hikers is useful to understand how the tent was positioned and the potential forces involved.   I think you will need to try to understand the tangential force acting on the snow in relation to the slope.  A key question is how much snow above the tent would act as a single cohesive slab initially.  If you took an infinite slab of the required thickness and incrementally increase the inclination eventually a section of the snow slab would come away from the main slab.  There will probably be a range of possibilities depending on the type of snow.  There are probably some models available somewhere.  One thing that I think will be important is the effect of the wind on the snow slab.  What additional force could the wind impart on the snow?  This might have the equivalent effect of increasing the angle of the slope.

I think the photo graph was taken which the camera slightly tilted to the right by maybe a few degrees, based on those standing up and their own vertical centre line.  You may possibly need to adjust the snow/slope angle slightly .  Have a look and see what you think.

Regards
Star man