Simplest Explanation is Often the Best

[Patrick]

There are some general observations I'd like to make:

1) In disasters like this, human fault is usually the cause.

A) I think a fight occurred outside the tent, probably between Dyatlov and the army veteran (older guy, stranger to the group), which turned extremely violent, using ice picks, etc. This could account for head trauma suffered by one member.

B) If you read what is known of the veteran, he experienced some intense stuff during WW2. A combInation of PTSD, and the indignation of following a kid who lost his way became expressed in a rage. They were all tired, lost, and anxious.

C) It's easy for me to imagine the 2 men running around the tent, perhaps with another member trying to intervene, shouting threats and cursing. In the darkness and ice, they fell onto the tent, which caused the members inside to cut their way out of the tent. Some made their way downhill where they had previously seen forest before nightfall. They made sure to take matches to make a fire to keep warm, thinking they would return either later that night, or in the morning. I think there were 2 groups; one led by Dyatlov which went first, then a 2nd group of 3 or 4 who stayed behind to calm the raging vet.

D) The first group arrived at the cedar and could not find dry wood on the ground, so they climbed trees to break off dry branches. Cedars, like junipers are potential life-savers in this regard. Eventually, they could not sustain the effort of obtaining fuel, and one-by-one they began to freeze.

E) Meanwhile, the 2nd group made their way toward the light of the fire. They had calmed the veteran, and meant to coax back the others. When they arrived, they were overcome with the disaster unfolding.

F) The survivors stripped the clothes of the dead. Half determined that they would take those who could not move to the ravine, where they failed to make a fire an ice cave, and an insulating mat from branches. They all froze to death. The other half tried to make it back to the tent to bring back life-saving means...they froze to death as well.

2) The injuries:

A) Chest and rib injuries were caused by chest compressions during CPR attempts.

B) Bloody teeth and lips were caused by mouth-to-mouth attempts at CPR.

C) Missing eyes, tongue, and lips were caused by scavanging birds or mammals, or perhaps water.
D) Burns were caused by simply trying to feel the warmth of the fire through freezing tissue. In desperation, they got too close, not being able to feel they were burning themselves.

E) There were injuries to extremities consistent with climbing trees.

3) Notes:

A) The role of the veteran cannot be overestimated; he was the one not on the same wavelength as the others.

B) Photos taken from the cameras suggest who befriended, and formed a clique with the veteran.

C) Moonrise did not occur until much later in the night...it was pitch dark. This is why the notion of them climbing trees to see their surroundings makes no sense.

D) You can source Russian videos on youtube, recreating the journey from the tent to the cedar under similar snow and temperature conditions (during daylight). Socks stayed dry, and even with marginal clothes, they made the walk relatively easily and comfortably. Without adequate fire, though, the Dyatlov group were doomed.

E) Much of my theory is informed by my extensive time trekking in the wilderness. I have been too hot, too cold, too wet, out of food and water, and very lucky. Things can turn badly very quickly.

F) I realize I haven"t commented on every perceived anomaly, but nothing really stood out as inexplicable.

G) The exact causes and motivations will never be known.

[Nigel Evans]

Everything Should Be Made as Simple as Possible, But Not Simpler - Albert EinsteinE.g. most observers agree that the injuries to Lyudmila and Semyon required superhuman force.

[Patrick]

Nigel Evans:  Which "most observers"?

[Nigel Evans]

Observers like the pathologist who performed the autopsies perhaps?


I'm sure you've read the case files before posting your "Simple Explanation"?

https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-381-383?rbid=17743

"These injuries, especially appearing in such a way without any damage to the soft tissue of the chest, are very similar to the type of trauma that results from the shock wave of a bomb."

[Jean Daniel Reuss]

There are some general observations I'd like to make:

1) In disasters like this, human fault is usually the cause.

A) I think a fight occurred outside the tent, probably between Dyatlov and the army veteran (older guy, stranger to the group), which turned extremely violent, using ice picks, etc. This could account for head trauma suffered by one member.

B) If you read what is known of the veteran, he experienced some intense stuff during WW2. A combInation of PTSD, and the indignation of following a kid who lost his way became expressed in a rage. They were all tired, lost, and anxious.

C) It's easy for me to imagine the 2 men running around the tent, perhaps with another member trying to intervene, shouting threats and cursing. In the darkness and ice, they fell onto the tent, which caused the members inside to cut their way out of the tent. Some made their way downhill where they had previously seen forest before nightfall. They made sure to take matches to make a fire to keep warm, thinking they would return either later that night, or in the morning. I think there were 2 groups; one led by Dyatlov which went first, then a 2nd group of 3 or 4 who stayed behind to calm the raging vet.

D) The first group arrived at the cedar and could not find dry wood on the ground, so they climbed trees to break off dry branches. Cedars, like junipers are potential life-savers in this regard. Eventually, they could not sustain the effort of obtaining fuel, and one-by-one they began to freeze.

E) Meanwhile, the 2nd group made their way toward the light of the fire. They had calmed the veteran, and meant to coax back the others. When they arrived, they were overcome with the disaster unfolding.

F) The survivors stripped the clothes of the dead. Half determined that they would take those who could not move to the ravine, where they failed to make a fire an ice cave, and an insulating mat from branches. They all froze to death. The other half tried to make it back to the tent to bring back life-saving means...they froze to death as well.

2) The injuries:

A) Chest and rib injuries were caused by chest compressions during CPR attempts.

B) Bloody teeth and lips were caused by mouth-to-mouth attempts at CPR.

C) Missing eyes, tongue, and lips were caused by scavanging birds or mammals, or perhaps water.
D) Burns were caused by simply trying to feel the warmth of the fire through freezing tissue. In desperation, they got too close, not being able to feel they were burning themselves.

E) There were injuries to extremities consistent with climbing trees.

3) Notes:

A) The role of the veteran cannot be overestimated; he was the one not on the same wavelength as the others.

B) Photos taken from the cameras suggest who befriended, and formed a clique with the veteran.

C) Moonrise did not occur until much later in the night...it was pitch dark. This is why the notion of them climbing trees to see their surroundings makes no sense.

D) You can source Russian videos on youtube, recreating the journey from the tent to the cedar under similar snow and temperature conditions (during daylight). Socks stayed dry, and even with marginal clothes, they made the walk relatively easily and comfortably. Without adequate fire, though, the Dyatlov group were doomed.

E) Much of my theory is informed by my extensive time trekking in the wilderness. I have been too hot, too cold, too wet, out of food and water, and very lucky. Things can turn badly very quickly.

F) I realize I haven"t commented on every perceived anomaly, but nothing really stood out as inexplicable.

G) The exact causes and motivations will never be known.

 

§.1

I am not sure I understand.
Is it true that the one you call ] the veteran is Semyon Aleksandrovich Zolotaryov (Sasha) ??

   3) "Notes: B) Photos taken from the cameras suggest who befriended, and formed a clique with the veteran."
https://dyatlovpass.com/camera-krivonischenko         Film ?1: frame ?5  and  frame ?7
Is it true that the one you call  the kid  (or who befriended) is Nikolay Thibeaux-Brignolle (Tibo) ??

°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
 

§.2

Then I agree with you on the following statements:
1 -          D) E) F)
2 - A) B) C) D) E) F)
3 -    B) C) D) E) F)°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°

§.3

But I disagree mainly on   1 - B)Indeed the 9 hikers were in perfect physical and mental health, well trained and accustomed to the conditions of Siberian winters.
Their equipment may have been a little weak, but it was usual for the year 1959. .....A combination of PTSD, and the indignation of following a kid...---> (supposed to be Thibeaux-Brignolle)PSDT = post-traumatic stress disorder
https://www.helpguide.org/articles/ptsd-trauma/ptsd-in-military-veterans.htm
but there are no indications that Zolotaryov suffered from post-traumatic stress disorder ! .....They were all tired, lost, and anxious....  
On the contrary I think that :tired ---> They were only a bit tired and they mostly wanted to rest by lying in the night.
They were a little cold (indeed no fire that night) and they especially wanted to stay in the tent away from the wind and the cold. lost ---> Even if Dyatlov had strayed a kilometer from the planned route they were not lost because there were good landmarks: the edge of the forest, the surrounding peaks....
Although visibility was reduced on February 1, it was the gales that lifted the snow. The sky was clear, there was no fog.

anxious ---> Maybe a little troubled (?) But everything went well until the evening of February 1st and they were sheltered in Dyatlov's sturdy tent.°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°
 

§.4

   I propose a reconstruction that would transform and enrich your opinion.I do not know if my theory is right, but it has the merit and the interest to be consistent with all that is exhibited on the Dyatlovpass.com website.Obviously I am being influenced by pathologist Eduard Tumanov. I have to work to strengthen the argumentation to dismantle other causes of injuries such as:
    • the shock wave of a bomb
    • an impact of an automobile moving at high speed
    • military rifle butt shots
    • compelling unknown overhelming forces
    • ...and so on...If you have enough time and courage for a long reading, my explanation can be found under the commentary of Eduard Tumanov:
             Reply #15

       https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=411.0

[sarapuk]

Unfortunately there is nothing simple about the Dyatlov Incident. Or so it seems from all the information that we have, SO FAR. A really simple explanation could be a BEAR or such like creature causing them panic and obviously fear. But there are so many if's and but's about all of the theories thus far.

[Patrick]

Nigel - the "superhuman force" statement is a transliterated opinion of ONE overwhelmed medical examiner in limited facilities. Another pathologist recently suggested  at least one of the members was tied to a tree and tortured with fire. Broken ribs and  sternum are common occurrences. The fact that no outside trauma or bruising could mean they were already dead. Again, why "reach" when a simple cause is at hand?

[Patrick]

Jean - yes, Zolotaryov is the veteran.

The "kid" is Dyatlov, the leader of the expedition, a term used from Sasha's point of view within my explanation.

There is no evidence they were in perfect shape. What was their daily workout regimen? They were experienced, yes, but were slogging up a mountain pulling and/or carrying everything they needed to survive for hours that day. This would make the most conditioned athlete tired. Add to that: confusion, lack of warmth from a fire  and lack of warm food, and it makes for a pretty dismal, if not desperate situation.

[Nigel Evans]

Nigel - the "superhuman force" statement is a transliterated opinion of ONE overwhelmed medical examiner in limited facilities. Another pathologist recently suggested  at least one of the members was tied to a tree and tortured with fire. Broken ribs and  sternum are common occurrences. I'm not an expert on broken ribs and sternums but i understand that the core question is what kind of impulse could result in Lyudmila's double fracture on her RHS? Which causes the pathologist to consider an explosion given there are no signs of bruising.  The fact that no outside trauma or bruising could mean they were already dead. No it can't, Lyudmila and Semyon died from the internal bleeding that resulted from the chest trauma. They were alive at the event and for minutes post the event. Dead bodies don't bleed profusely (internally) because the heart has stopped? Again, why "reach" when a simple cause is at hand? Because your simple cause is too simple to explain the facts, hence the pathologist's statement.

[Patrick]

Jean - I read pathologist"s Tumanov's  "x-drug" theory. I find it very convoluted and silly. Any scientist, even an unethical one, would perform such experiments under controlled and closely observed conditions. This is a guy trying to make money and sell books, movies, etc.

Things went wrong on that mountain, which cascaded into a disaster, because of lack of cohesion within the group. In addition to my love of long-distance wilderness trekking, I am also a U.S. Army veteran. In both experiences  I know of many, many  instances where fear  panic, and lack of good order led to catastrophe, which could have bern avoided by cohesion.

The Dyatlov tragedy is one of those events where, in many individuals, the human brain will  insist that something so significant had to have an equally significant cause, because the simple answer doesn't satisfy.

I offer you a few examples:

1) The American President Kennedy was assassinated by ONE gunman. All the proof points in that direction. Yet, any small discrepancy in the case is seized upon as evidence of a conspiracy, because there is no way (in the minds of many) that this great man could have been killed by a deranged "loser";

2) The Twin Towers, on 9/11, were brought down by Islamist zealots, crashing passenger jets into them. Again, despite overwhelming evidence, many believe the CIA  Mossad, or any number of groups, imploded the buildings with explosives. They can't believe some people in caves, half a world away, planned and executed the plot;

3) Archaeologists, historians, and scientists have very good ideas how ancient structures, such as the Egyptian pyramids, Nasca Lines, etc. were made. Yet, there are millions and millions who believe extra-terrestrial beings were involved.

I don't understand this phenomenon, because my brain is not susceptible to fantasy.  I am a cynic in most things (except in my love for my family). But, it exists, is part of our collective condition, and must be endured. (SIGH)! 

[Patrick]

Nigel - another simple explanation: they were crushed  lying on their backs, beneath tons of snow and ice as they sought shelter in a hastily- made snow cave.

[Nigel Evans]

Nigel - another simple explanation: they were crushed  lying on their backs, beneath tons of snow and ice as they sought shelter in a hastily- made snow cave.

Great minds think alike....
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=398.msg4897#msg4897

[Eve24]

I always wonder “why would they walk a mile?” but obviously if anything happened to the tent, the only option is to get to the forest. They aren’t just gonna stand around halfway down the slope, exposed.

 I just think they’re more responsible than to fight like some have suggested. Some people think they fought with knives inside the tent but I think that’s ridiculous. Even if they were annoyed with each other they aren’t gonna risk their lives over it.

[Jean Daniel Reuss]

Jean - I read pathologist"s Tumanov's  "x-drug" theory. I find it very convoluted and silly. Any scientist, even an unethical one, would perform such experiments under controlled and closely observed conditions. This is a guy trying to make money and sell books, movies, etc.

Things went wrong on that mountain, which cascaded into a disaster, because of lack of cohesion within the group. In addition to my love of long-distance wilderness trekking, I am also a U.S. Army veteran. In both experiences  I know of many, many  instances where fear  panic, and lack of good order led to catastrophe, which could have bern avoided by cohesion.

The Dyatlov tragedy is one of those events where, in many individuals, the human brain will  insist that something so significant had to have an equally significant cause, because the simple answer doesn't satisfy.

I offer you a few examples:

1) The American President Kennedy was assassinated by ONE gunman. All the proof points in that direction. Yet, any small discrepancy in the case is seized upon as evidence of a conspiracy, because there is no way (in the minds of many) that this great man could have been killed by a deranged "loser";

2) The Twin Towers, on 9/11, were brought down by Islamist zealots, crashing passenger jets into them. Again, despite overwhelming evidence, many believe the CIA  Mossad, or any number of groups, imploded the buildings with explosives. They can't believe some people in caves, half a world away, planned and executed the plot;

3) Archaeologists, historians, and scientists have very good ideas how ancient structures, such as the Egyptian pyramids, Nasca Lines, etc. were made. Yet, there are millions and millions who believe extra-terrestrial beings were involved.

I don't understand this phenomenon, because my brain is not susceptible to fantasy.  I am a cynic in most things (except in my love for my family). But, it exists, is part of our collective condition, and must be endured. (SIGH)! 

 

« I read pathologist"s Tumanov's  "x-drug" theory. »

The X-drug theory is not Tumanov's, it is mine Jean Daniel Reuss.
    Eduard Tumanov,...is pushing a theory that hikers took part in a fight, either between them or with outsiders. He is not partial to any of the two versions

The Jean Daniel Reuss or X-drug theory refines the ideas of Eduard Tumanov:
 Two fatal altercations  caused by one mistake with a test of a noxious military psychostimulant.
 (But obviously you also need to know what Capgras syndrome is).

1)First Mr WAB wrote :
General Discussion / Re: Is this a record of Yuri K limping?
Quote from: WAB on February 28, 2020, 07:19:20 PM

For me the key thing is finding THE narrative, the one that explains ALL the evidence. Not just some of it.

I propose a scenario that is  in conformity with this logical criterion stated by Mr. WAB.

2)  My hypothesis is explained in 4 chapters divided into paragraphs (= § ) which makes (3+7+6+8) 24 paragraphs (§) that follow logically.
I would like to know precisely which paragraphs you are contesting.
My hypothesis is currently in the form of a draft to be improved with future objections.
 

Il is here ----->           Reply #15
     https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=411.0

3) My hypothesis also complements (or at least does not contradict) the theory of murder with the arguments advanced by :
Per Inge Oestmoen, Noelle, Monty...and others.

 

« This is a guy trying to make money and sell books, movies, etc. »

 • I am only interested in finding an explanation for the DPI = a cold case that has remained unresolved and mysterious since 1959.
 • I do not know Eduard Tumanov, it is a well known pathologist at Pirogov Russian National Research Medical University, Moscow, Russia.
However, it can be assumed that he is not so much interested in selling books or movies...

 

« Any scientist, even an unethical one, would perform such experiments under controlled and closely observed conditions. »

 • Tests of a psychological nature must be carried out under real-life conditions, otherwise they are of no value.

 • In almost every country, military leaders know the importance of training their soldiers to withstand the dangers of fighting.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_exercise

   With live fire = exercises with rifles firing real bullets.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Live_fire_exercise

 • The following is a testimonial:
" So the training down there, which was realistic - we did live fire - was very important because it gave you the confidence in yourself and your peers to do the job. "

 • The test carried out on the Hikers of Dyatlov's group (9 deaths) is an accident entirely comparable with
The Space Shuttle Challenger disaster Tuesday, January 28, 1986,  (7 deaths)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Shuttle_Challenger_disaster
(In fact, the DPI Soviet test caused two more deaths than the shuttle crash.)

 • Effectively during the 1950s and 1960s spectacular and dangerous experiments were carried out "under controlled and closely observed conditions. "

Desert Rock was the code name of a series of exercises conducted by the US military in conjunction with atmospheric nuclear tests. They were carried out at the Nevada Proving Grounds between 1951 and 1957
Approximately 18,000 members of the U.S. Air Force, Army, Navy and Marines participated in exercises Desert Rock VII and VIII during Operation Plumbbob. The military was interested in knowing how the average foot-soldier would stand up, physically and psychologically, to the rigors of the tactical nuclear battlefield.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desert_Rock_exercises
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Plumbbob

And this is the analogous test on the Soviet side :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totskoye_nuclear_exercise

It would appear that no human guinea pigs died because the dose equivalents remained below 10 rem (rem = röntgen equivalent man).
This is not fatal but only bad for your health...
 
 

« I am also a U.S. Army veteran. In both experiences  I know of many, many  instances where fear  panic, and lack of good order led to catastrophe, which could have bern avoided by cohesion. »

 • You have perhaps had a lot of bad luck in your military unit, where the mentality of brothers-in-arms bonded by adversity did not prevail.

 • I do not know how much is going on in the United States Army right now.

What I know is that if I can write here now it is because U.S. soldiers came to liberate France in 194 and they do not look like frightened toddlers who are five years old.

 • Let read the rescuers' depositions
Moses Abramovich Akselrod, Vladimir Askinadzi,  Sergey Nikolaevich Sogrin, Vasiliy Ivanovich Korolyov,....etc.
https://dyatlovpass.com/rescuers?flp=1#whoiswho

 • The hikers in 1959 were young, energetic, well-trained Soviet sportsmen who were used to Siberian conditions. Not to mention Zolotariov who had 4 military awards and probably fought hand-to-hand with a dagger in the ruins of Stalingrad.

According to the rescuers' depositions the group can not be broken up. For them the hiking slogan "Die yourself, but save your comrade" is not an empty phrase.

« I offer you a few examples: »

Your 3 examples are particularly badly chosen. They are the worst you can find. Simply because your 3 examples are rather 3 counter-examples

These events have no relation, no resemblance to Dyatlov Pass Incident and I do not understand how mentioning them could be useful.
But I also know that  (in Board information) the Global Moderator Loose}{Cannon did instruct us to :

5. Try to stay on topic, do not thread jack. We know conversations can meander, but if it gets out of hand, either PM each other or an Admin/Mod will step in and clean up the thread.

Please understand, if you get out of hand, like in real life, an Admin or Moderator will step in and solve the issue/end the issue. We will try our best to resolve any issue/disagreement, issue warnings, but in the end an administrator has the final say.

But I am like a naughty little boy who is hoping that the Global Moderator will be forgiving --->  I do believe that I cannot completely ignore these 3 inadequate examples.

--------------------------------------------------------

« 1) The American President Kennedy was assassinated .... »

I have no competence in this politically charged matter. I have only noticed :

Yes, Lee Harvey Oswald killed President Kennedy on November 22, 1963 and could not declare anything because Lee Ostwald was shot November 24 by Jack Ruby.
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_John_F._Kennedy

 

« All the proof points in that direction. »

You believe in the validity of the Warren Commission report, which ruled out certain testimony. It is your right to believe the official propaganda.
Yet I read that there are Americans who take a different view.

" Public opinion polls have consistently shown that a majority of Americans believe there was a conspiracy to kill Kennedy. Gallup polls have also found that only 20–30% of the population believe that Oswald had acted alone. These polls also show that there is no agreement on who else may have been involved. "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Commission

-----------------------------------------

« 2) The Twin Towers, on 9/11/2001, were brought down by Islamist zealots, crashing passenger jets into them.... Again, despite overwhelming evidence, many believe the CIA  Mossad, or any number of groups, imploded the buildings with explosives... »

On the contrary, I studied the 9/11 attacks from the point of view of rational mechanics and the resistance of materials. It's not simple, it's not clear, nothing is certain.  It would be interesting to study the documents and arguments on another dedicated website. It would take years of hard working !
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_conspiracy_theories
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_Truth_movement
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11_attacks_advance-knowledge_conspiracy_theories
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Architects_%26_Engineers_for_9/11_Truth

--------------------------------------------------------

« 3) Archaeologists, historians, and scientists have very good ideas how ancient structures, such as the Egyptian pyramids
were made... »

Yes, in the main, everyone agrees. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_pyramid_construction_techniques

Most Egyptologists acknowledge that ramps are the most tenable of the methods to raise the blocks, yet they acknowledge that it is an incomplete method that must be supplemented by another device. Exemple : http://www.cheops-pyramide.ch/pyramid-building.html

Egytian Pyramids were built by tens of thousands of skilled workers who camped near the pyramids and worked for a salary or as a form of tax payment (levy) until the construction was completed.

Therefore there is no real problem with pyramids, no interest to be commented on here, and absolutely no relation to DPI.

---------------------------------------------------------

« because my brain is not susceptible to fantasy »

 • I have difficulty understanding the English language, as a result I do not know the correct meaning of the word "fantasy"

 • Generally speaking, inventions are the result of a synergy between rational reasoning, appropriate knowledge and constructive intuition...

 • For those seeking to explain the DPI, there may be something to be learned from reading entirely imaginary novels, for example:

Sherlock Holmes (fully imagined by Conan Doyle) is known for his proficiency with observation, deduction, forensic science, and logical reasoning.

Hercule Poirot (fully imagined by Agatha Christie) rather than painstakingly examining crime scenes, he enquires into the nature of the victim or the psychology of the murderers. He predicates his actions on his underlying assumption that particular crimes are committed by particular types of people.

[Per Inge Oestmoen]

Everything Should Be Made as Simple as Possible, But Not Simpler - Albert EinsteinE.g. most observers agree that the injuries to Lyudmila and Semyon required superhuman force.

Not at all.

A person highly trained in close combat techniques has no problems crushing a human rib cage with elbow strikes. I know jiu jitsu, and I can confirm that there is no need for superhuman force in order to create such damage to a human body.

There is nothing supernatural and mysterious about the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group. They are all consistent with an attack by a group of professional killers who wanted to take the lives of the nine in such a was as to make it seem like an accident. The nine unfortunates had no chance against their trained attackers.

[Nigel Evans]

Everything Should Be Made as Simple as Possible, But Not Simpler - Albert EinsteinE.g. most observers agree that the injuries to Lyudmila and Semyon required superhuman force.

Not at all.

A person highly trained in close combat techniques has no problems crushing a human rib cage with elbow strikes. I know jiu jitsu, and I can confirm that there is no need for superhuman force in order to create such damage to a human body.

There is nothing supernatural and mysterious about the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group. They are all consistent with an attack by a group of professional killers who wanted to take the lives of the nine in such a was as to make it seem like an accident. The nine unfortunates had no chance against their trained attackers.

No i'd disagree. Lyudmila had two fracture lines on one side of her chest (plus one on the other side) but there's no bruising at all (as demonstrated by the morgue photo) even though the pathologist stated the internal bleeding meant she probably lived for ten minutes. Hence his view that it was consistent with the force of an explosion or car accident. Hence my narrative of a tracked vehicle applying crushing force through a layer of snow.

[MDGross]

Mr. Reuss, You've clearly put much thought and research into your scenario, and I commend you for that.

But why not consider Occam's razor, a logical principle that says: Why make more assumptions than what is needed to explain a phenomenon? Why make what could have a simple answer more and more complex?

Perhaps the four hikers had dug the snow den and were doing additional work in close proximity above the snow den? Suddenly the snow slips under their feet and they fall 10 feet or thereabouts onto rocks in the ravine below. 

Dubinina suffers broken ribs on one side of her body. One of the broken bones pierces her heart. The ribs on the other side of her body were broken by the accumulation of 12 weeks of snow. Zolotaryov also landed on one side of his body and suffered fractured ribs. Thibeaux-Brignolle suffered a severe skull fracture that was enlarged and made worse by water entering the fracture and then freezing at night as the weather warmed. Kolevatov wasn't as injured as badly as the others and probably died of hypothermia.

A simple and straight-forward scenario that very well could have happened. Why add layers of complexity when it very well may not be necessary?

[Jean Daniel Reuss]

No i'd disagree. Lyudmila had two fracture lines on one side of her chest (plus one on the other side) but there's no bruising at all (as demonstrated by the morgue photo) even though the pathologist stated the internal bleeding meant she probably lived for ten minutes. Hence his view that it was consistent with the force of an explosion or car accident. Hence my narrative of a tracked vehicle applying crushing force through a layer of snow.

It is not very easy to run over people with a vehicle travelling on snow.
  In the case of DPI.
The vehicle must be able to pass between the trees.
The den is a depression where a vehicle is forced to maneuver slowly and carefully.

=======================================================

Yes, I've heard of them weird things
http://www.darkroastedblend.com/2007/12/unique-soviet-snowmobiles.html
These can cause a high velocity trauma.

Teddy has located a fine collection of aerosled = aerosani = a type of propeller-driven snowmobile.

And this is a cute little one :
 Aerosleds are well suited to travel quickly on flat terrain such as the banks of Lozva river which you recognize.

To climb up to the Diatlov Pass or rather to the tent or cedar emplacements the steepness of the slope is difficult to assess precisely. The slope to be climbed is of the order of 15°- 20°. Therefore the slope is not very steep but I think that an aerosled cannot reach the Dyatlov pass.[/b]

=======================================================

Nowadays there is a type of light vehicles more suitable for travelling outside the snowy flatlands. This is the snowmobile, also known as motor sled, motor sledge, skimobile, snowscooter, snow machine.
(Ski-Doo is a brand name of snowmobile manufactured by Bombardier Recreational Products).

But in 1959, the Bombardier company whitch was the first to launch the manufacture of snowmobiles, Skidoo, had sold only 225 units.


Teddy with the unknown expedition reached he rock of the memorial plaque with its snowmobiles in February 2019
We should ask her what she thinks about the possibilities of the various snowmobiles.
Here is another model of motor sled.



There are trees that hinder progress and the passage becomes narrower.   

=======================================================

To be able to climb long, steeper slopes, fully tracked vehicles are required. That is to say without the friction of skis or skates, which reduces the traction force and therefore the gradient that can be negotiated.

To reach the Dyatlov Pass in winter, it was (and still is) necessary to cross deep snow passages in the forest requiring wide tracks.
  Afterwards on the slope the snow surface seems to be less soft because it is blown by the wind.

On this Soviet style model the width of the tracks is difficult to evaluate.
   


Probably widespread Soviet manufacture in 1959.



This more modern Swedish snow-crawler may have existed in 1959. To progress on deep snow it was possible to adapt wider tracks than those shown in the picture.



This is a very efficient all-terrain arrangement of an articulated 4-track drive vehicle that is currently used in Siberia.The Russian army is currently using much heavier 4-track vehicles with this arrangement.

[Nigel Evans]

No i'd disagree. Lyudmila had two fracture lines on one side of her chest (plus one on the other side) but there's no bruising at all (as demonstrated by the morgue photo) even though the pathologist stated the internal bleeding meant she probably lived for ten minutes. Hence his view that it was consistent with the force of an explosion or car accident. Hence my narrative of a tracked vehicle applying crushing force through a layer of snow.

It is not very easy to run over people with a vehicle travelling on snow.
  In the case of DPI.
The vehicle must be able to pass between the trees. Hi there, the ravine trees were under the snow? Hence the photos show a field of snow empty of trees.....
The den is a depression where a vehicle is forced to maneuver slowly and carefully. In my narrative the collapse of the den roof would be just be on one track and is a good explanation for Lyudmila's fractures on both sides of her chest. Both the front and rear of the track falling into a shallow crater, creating two events.

=======================================================

Yes, I've heard of them weird things
http://www.darkroastedblend.com/2007/12/unique-soviet-snowmobiles.html
These can cause a high velocity trauma.

Teddy has located a fine collection of aerosled = aerosani = a type of propeller-driven snowmobile.

And this is a cute little one :

 Aerosleds are well suited to travel quickly on flat terrain such as the banks of Lozva river which you recognize.


To climb up to the Diatlov Pass or rather to the tent or cedar emplacements the steepness of the slope is difficult to assess precisely. The slope to be climbed is of the order of 15°- 20°. Therefore the slope is not very steep but I think that an aerosled cannot reach the Dyatlov pass.




=======================================================

Nowadays there is a type of light vehicles more suitable for travelling outside the snowy flatlands. This is the snowmobile, also known as motor sled, motor sledge, skimobile, snowscooter, snow machine.
(Ski-Doo is a brand name of snowmobile manufactured by Bombardier Recreational Products).

But in 1959, the Bombardier company whitch was the first to launch the manufacture of snowmobiles, Skidoo, had sold only 225 units.


Teddy with the unknown expedition reached he rock of the memorial plaque with its snowmobiles in February 2019
We should ask her what she thinks about the possibilities of the various snowmobiles.


Here is another model of motor sled.



There are trees that hinder progress and the passage becomes narrower.

   

=======================================================

To be able to climb long, steeper slopes, fully tracked vehicles are required. That is to say without the friction of skis or skates, which reduces the traction force and therefore the gradient that can be negotiated.

To reach the Dyatlov Pass in winter, it was (and still is) necessary to cross deep snow passages in the forest requiring wide tracks.
  Afterwards on the slope the snow surface seems to be less soft because it is blown by the wind.

On this Soviet style model the width of the tracks is difficult to evaluate.
   


Probably widespread Soviet manufacture in 1959.



This more modern Swedish snow-crawler may have existed in 1959. To progress on deep snow it was possible to adapt wider tracks than those shown in the picture.



This is a very efficient all-terrain arrangement of an articulated 4-track drive vehicle that is currently used in Siberia.

The Russian army is currently using much heavier 4-track vehicles with this arrangement.

[sarapuk]

Nigel - another simple explanation: they were crushed  lying on their backs, beneath tons of snow and ice as they sought shelter in a hastily- made snow cave.

But this doesnt really fit with all the other aspects of this Dyatlov Case.  This is not a simple explanation at all  !  ? 

[sarapuk]

Everything Should Be Made as Simple as Possible, But Not Simpler - Albert EinsteinE.g. most observers agree that the injuries to Lyudmila and Semyon required superhuman force.

Not at all.

A person highly trained in close combat techniques has no problems crushing a human rib cage with elbow strikes. I know jiu jitsu, and I can confirm that there is no need for superhuman force in order to create such damage to a human body.

There is nothing supernatural and mysterious about the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group. They are all consistent with an attack by a group of professional killers who wanted to take the lives of the nine in such a was as to make it seem like an accident. The nine unfortunates had no chance against their trained attackers.

There is plenty to ponder over some of the injuries  !  ?  Missing Eyes and Tongue etc etc etc etc.  Sequence of events do not suggest other Humans involvement.

[sarapuk]

Everything Should Be Made as Simple as Possible, But Not Simpler - Albert EinsteinE.g. most observers agree that the injuries to Lyudmila and Semyon required superhuman force.

Not at all.

A person highly trained in close combat techniques has no problems crushing a human rib cage with elbow strikes. I know jiu jitsu, and I can confirm that there is no need for superhuman force in order to create such damage to a human body.

There is nothing supernatural and mysterious about the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group. They are all consistent with an attack by a group of professional killers who wanted to take the lives of the nine in such a was as to make it seem like an accident. The nine unfortunates had no chance against their trained attackers.

No i'd disagree. Lyudmila had two fracture lines on one side of her chest (plus one on the other side) but there's no bruising at all (as demonstrated by the morgue photo) even though the pathologist stated the internal bleeding meant she probably lived for ten minutes. Hence his view that it was consistent with the force of an explosion or car accident. Hence my narrative of a tracked vehicle applying crushing force through a layer of snow.

It was just a view.  An analogy.  He doesnt presuppose that a vehicle was actually involved.

[Per Inge Oestmoen]

Everything Should Be Made as Simple as Possible, But Not Simpler - Albert EinsteinE.g. most observers agree that the injuries to Lyudmila and Semyon required superhuman force.

Not at all.

A person highly trained in close combat techniques has no problems crushing a human rib cage with elbow strikes. I know jiu jitsu, and I can confirm that there is no need for superhuman force in order to create such damage to a human body.

There is nothing supernatural and mysterious about the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group. They are all consistent with an attack by a group of professional killers who wanted to take the lives of the nine in such a was as to make it seem like an accident. The nine unfortunates had no chance against their trained attackers.

There is plenty to ponder over some of the injuries  !  ?  Missing Eyes and Tongue etc etc etc etc.  Sequence of events do not suggest other Humans involvement.

Missing eyes and missing tongue is the likely result of natural decomposition and/or the involvement of some small scavengers. It is extremely unlikely that these damages happened at the time of death.

The sequence of events and all the injuries are consistent with attack by professional human killers.

[Nigel Evans]

There is nothing supernatural and mysterious about the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group. They are all consistent with an attack by a group of professional killers who wanted to take the lives of the nine in such a was as to make it seem like an accident. The nine unfortunates had no chance against their trained attackers.

As i have repeated many times, the problem with the injury profile of the ravine four is that although the bodies have bruises, they have no relevant bruises to explain the rib and skull trauma as point impacts from elbows, rifle buts, boots etc etc. The internal bleeding demonstrates that the trauma was in vivo BUT THERE WAS NO BRUISING.

[MDGross]

No relevant bruising rules out that the fatal injuries were caused by a severe beating by others. The most straightforward explanation is that they somehow plunged into the ravine and struck rocks with enough force to break bones. After all, they were struggling in the pitch dark and in sub-zero temperatures. I also think that a scenario where a concussion blast from a bomb causes the injuries has merit. I'm less convinced that the injuries were the result of snow mobiles or other tracked vehicles running over them. The injuries seem too specific for that.

[Nigel Evans]

Can someone explain to me how the lack of bruising rules out human violence but permits "falling onto rocks"? Surely it's still a "point impact"?

[Jean Daniel Reuss]

..................
 The internal bleeding demonstrates that the trauma was in vivo BUT THERE WAS NO BRUISING.

This argument is not valid because the murderers of Dyatlov's group used blunt objects wrapped in rags (and carefully adapted in weight and dimensions to the capabilitie of each  murderer).

This is a process usually used by specialized hunters to obtain a beast skin with complete and impeccable fur (i.e. without any holes).

In these cases it is important not to damage or pierce the skin by a bullet hole or a knife wound...
 
After one or more blows struck in the right place (i.e. on the head), the heart of the victim (human or animal) stops quickly and no visible haematoma or bruise appears.

(The procedure of the blunt object wrapped in rags is obviously not usable on elephants, or even on big bears which have a very sturdy cranium).

Moreover, in the case of DPI, even the first five corpses found were beginning to be damaged and the examination of the skin could only be crude, (some testimonies even describe an orange color).

The hematomas or bruises observed were produced during the period of hand to hand fighting, afterwards the victims (the hikers) remained unconscious and it was the cold that caused their death.

For the four of the Den they were so rotten that the pilot of the helicopter had refused to take them before they were locked up in a leakproof coffin.
No serious examination of the bruises or the skin was obviously possible.

With the "blunt objects wrapped in rags procedure" (which is simple and inexpensive), it is enough to strike hard and in the right place.

Of course one can discuss at length in details what is known about each of the 9 corpses.

https://dyatlovpass.com/death

But in my opinion it would be a waste of time: the explanation is simple and irrefutable and there is much more important research to be done for the DPI.

[Nigel Evans]

..................
 The internal bleeding demonstrates that the trauma was in vivo BUT THERE WAS NO BRUISING.

This argument is not valid because the murderers of Dyatlov's group used blunt objects wrapped in rags (and carefully adapted in weight and dimensions to the capabilitie of each  murderer).

This is a process usually used by specialized hunters to obtain a beast skin with complete and impeccable fur (i.e. without any holes).

In these cases it is important not to damage or pierce the skin by a bullet hole or a knife wound...
 
After one or more blows struck in the right place (i.e. on the head), the heart of the victim (human or animal) stops quickly and no visible haematoma or bruise appears.

(The procedure of the blunt object wrapped in rags is obviously not usable on elephants, or even on big bears which have a very sturdy cranium).

Moreover, in the case of DPI, even the first five corpses found were beginning to be damaged and the examination of the skin could only be crude, (some testimonies even describe an orange color).

The hematomas or bruises observed were produced during the period of hand to hand fighting, afterwards the victims (the hikers) remained unconscious and it was the cold that caused their death.

For the four of the Den they were so rotten that the pilot of the helicopter had refused to take them before they were locked up in a leakproof coffin.
No serious examination of the bruises or the skin was obviously possible.

With the "blunt objects wrapped in rags procedure" (which is simple and inexpensive), it is enough to strike hard and in the right place.

Of course one can discuss at length in details what is known about each of the 9 corpses.

https://dyatlovpass.com/death

But in my opinion it would be a waste of time: the explanation is simple and irrefutable and there is much more important research to be done for the DPI.

Hi.

It seems that you are not reading the autopsies and the interview Ivanov had with the pathologist, https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-381-383?rbid=17743 :-."Question: How long could Dubinina and Zolotaryov have lived? ..Answer: Dubinina died 10-20 minutes after the trauma. She could have been conscious. Sometimes it happens that a person with a wound to the heart (for example, a serious knife wound) can talk, run and ask for help. Dubinina’s situation was one of complicated traumatic shock resulting from the bilateral rib fracture, followed by internal hemorrhaging into the pleural cavity. Zolotaryov could have lived longer. It needs to be taken into account that they were all trained, physically fit, and strong people.
Question: Is it possible that Thibeaux-Brignolle was hit by a rock that was in someone’s hand?
Answer:In this case, there would have been damage to the soft tissue, and this was not evident.
Question: How long could Thibeaux-Brignolle have lived after the trauma. Could he have moved on his own, talked, etc.?
Answer: After this trauma, Thibeaux-Brignolle would have had a severe concussion; that is, he would have been in an unconscious state. Moving him would have been difficult and, close to the end, movement would not have been possible. I believe he would not have been able to move even if he had been helped. He could only have been carried or dragged. He could have shown signs of life for 2-3 hours.

Plenty of time there for bruises to develop.


Further as well as a massive compound fracture to the side, Nicolai's skull was split across the base by 17cm with the crack 4mm at it's widest. All from a blow(s) that didn't bruise....

[Tony]

There are some general observations I'd like to make:

1) In disasters like this, human fault is usually the cause.

I agree with this statement, although, I don't necessarily believe it was the fault of the hikers that they left the tent.

A) I think a fight occurred outside the tent, probably between Dyatlov and the army veteran (older guy, stranger to the group), which turned extremely violent, using ice picks, etc. This could account for head trauma suffered by one member.

There was no evidence of a violent fight in or around the tent (i.e. blood) and as far as I know, an ice pick was not one of the items recovered at the site (I could be wrong on this). There were at least two members who suffered head trauma but I'm assuming you're referring to Thibeux-Brignolle. According to the autopsy report, the head injury to Thibeux-Brignolle would have rendered him immediately unconscious and it would have been impossible to drag an unconscious person 1500 meters in the cold dark and knee deep snow that they would have encountered that night. Also, consider that Thibeux-Brignolle was found in the ravine - an additional 50 meters from the tree and away from the tent. Also consider that by the time they moved to the ravine, if he had been injured at the tent, Thibeux-Brignolle would have likely passed away.

B) If you read what is known of the veteran, he experienced some intense stuff during WW2. A combInation of PTSD, and the indignation of following a kid who lost his way became expressed in a rage. They were all tired, lost, and anxious.

Although it's very likely that Sasha was involved in some very intense fighting and witnessed a fair share of horrific events, his mental health is unknown and it would be impossible to speculate on his condition at the time of the event (see recent article on this site).

C) It's easy for me to imagine the 2 men running around the tent, perhaps with another member trying to intervene, shouting threats and cursing. In the darkness and ice, they fell onto the tent, which caused the members inside to cut their way out of the tent. Some made their way downhill where they had previously seen forest before nightfall. They made sure to take matches to make a fire to keep warm, thinking they would return either later that night, or in the morning. I think there were 2 groups; one led by Dyatlov which went first, then a 2nd group of 3 or 4 who stayed behind to calm the raging vet.

It is very difficult to envision this scenario for a number of different reasons. After hiking most of the day and setting up the tent in very high winds, it is probable that the entire group would have been exhausted and their clothing wet with sweat and snow. The slope would have been cold, dark, and extremely windy and it seems strange that both Sasha and Igor would have the energy to engage in an argument or physical fight outside of the tent. While Sasha was found wearing shoes, Igor was not and it's difficult to envision him being outside the tent without a coat and without footwear. It also seems unlikely that the other members would cut the tent if it was something as simple as two people falling on to it. The tent was very large and two people falling on it would have only affected a small part of the tent. It also seems odd that they would then move to the forest area and leave boots and heavy coats as well as additional life-saving equipment. Everything at the tent tells me that it they were either a. forced to leave or b. encountered a life-threatening event that caused them to vacate the area immediately.

D) The first group arrived at the cedar and could not find dry wood on the ground, so they climbed trees to break off dry branches. Cedars, like junipers are potential life-savers in this regard. Eventually, they could not sustain the effort of obtaining fuel, and one-by-one they began to freeze.

According to witness reports none of the branches that had been broken from the cedar were used in the fire and were found at the base of the tree. It also seems weird that the branches were broken on the windward instead of the leeward side of the tree (branches on that side would have likely been wet). Witnesses also found unused wood that the group had collected lying next to the spent fire. Although, it's possible that the branches were broken to use in the fire, it could be that they were broken for another reason.

E) Meanwhile, the 2nd group made their way toward the light of the fire. They had calmed the veteran, and meant to coax back the others. When they arrived, they were overcome with the disaster unfolding.

Footprints show that the entire group moved down the slope together at the same time.

F) The survivors stripped the clothes of the dead. Half determined that they would take those who could not move to the ravine, where they failed to make a fire an ice cave, and an insulating mat from branches. They all froze to death. The other half tried to make it back to the tent to bring back life-saving means...they froze to death as well.

I mostly agree with this. Only one at the ravine died of hypothermia. The other three died from violent injury.

2) The injuries:

A) Chest and rib injuries were caused by chest compressions during CPR attempts.

No, according to the autopsy reports the rib injuries were due to extreme violence and were not human caused.

B) Bloody teeth and lips were caused by mouth-to-mouth attempts at CPR.

I doubt it. Seems unlikely that hikers suffering from hypothermia would attempt mouth-to-mouth on other hikers. Also, why would mouth-to-mouth cause bloody teeth and lips?

C) Missing eyes, tongue, and lips were caused by scavanging birds or mammals, or perhaps water.

Agreed.
 
D) Burns were caused by simply trying to feel the warmth of the fire through freezing tissue. In desperation, they got too close, not being able to feel they were burning themselves.

Agreed. Also, it's likely that the burns were caused after death while remaining members attempted to remove clothing.

E) There were injuries to extremities consistent with climbing trees.

Agreed.

3) Notes:

A) The role of the veteran cannot be overestimated; he was the one not on the same wavelength as the others.

I agree that Sasha was an outlier and it is possible that he could have had a role in their leaving the tent (see recent article on the site). However, there is no evidence to support this.

B) Photos taken from the cameras suggest who befriended, and formed a clique with the veteran.

Maybe.

C) Moonrise did not occur until much later in the night...it was pitch dark. This is why the notion of them climbing trees to see their surroundings makes no sense.

Yes, I partly agree. I made a recent trip to the mountains during a moonless night and, except for the stars in the sky, it was extremely dark. So much so that I could not see even a couple of feet in front of me. Although it would have been very dark, I do think that one of them could have climbed the tree to look at the direction of the tent out of desperation. It is also possible that, although there was no moon, light from the soon rising moon could have slightly lit the sky making it possible to see a little bit of the surrounding area. The evidence does not support climbing the tree for firewood (see previous comment). The only way to test this theory would be to visit the pass on a similar moonlit night and record visibility.

D) You can source Russian videos on youtube, recreating the journey from the tent to the cedar under similar snow and temperature conditions (during daylight). Socks stayed dry, and even with marginal clothes, they made the walk relatively easily and comfortably. Without adequate fire, though, the Dyatlov group were doomed.

I have seen this video but it only covers a partial journey to the cedar and stops soon after encountering deep snow. It is also done in daylight and without wind and in valenki (feet will freeze even in dry socks). In the wind and dark and snow it is entirely possible that it took the group anywhere from 45 min. to an hour to reach the cedar. The video is 12 minutes and only shows around 1/3 of the journey from the tent to the cedar. The journey from the tent to the cedar in socks would have been anything but easy or comfortable.

E) Much of my theory is informed by my extensive time trekking in the wilderness. I have been too hot, too cold, too wet, out of food and water, and very lucky. Things can turn badly very quickly.

Highly agree.

F) I realize I haven"t commented on every perceived anomaly, but nothing really stood out as inexplicable.

Yes, I agree that one they left the tent they all died of natural causes (i.e. hypothermia, falling, etc.) but the event (perceived or otherwise) at the tent and what caused them to leave is absolutely baffling and has not been explained.

G) The exact causes and motivations will never be known.

Agreed.

[MDGross]

The question of why the Dyatlov group fled the shelter of their tent will probably never be convincingly answered.  As a way of organizing the many theories, I use three broad categories:
• They made a rational decision when faced with a life threatening naturally occurring phenomenon.
• They were forced to make a decision because of intervention by other people.
• They made an irrational decision because of an event that occurred.

I believe an occurrence such as infrasound or toxic fume from an exploded missile led to confused, panicked thinking. As always, just an educated guess.