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Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: More Controversial: The Event Itself Or Its Aftermath  (Read 673 times)

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February 19, 2020, 09:12:33 AM
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MDGross


As if explanations of the tragic event aren't controversial enough, questions raised by the event's aftermath seem equally if not more controversial.
Here are just a few off the top of my head:
• Why wasn't there a more thorough examination of the site where each body was found?
• Why did the military use a Geiger counter in the initial search?
• Why did one of the helicopter crews refuse to transport bodies in fear of radiation?
• Why wasn't the tent more thoroughly examined and why was it quickly stored away?
• Why were district attorneys present during the autopsies? Klinov for all nine and Ivanov for the first five. Did they suppress crucial information?
• Why did Moscow take an interest? I think I read somewhere, though I may be mistaken, that even Khrushchev was made aware.
• What about the documents from the district prosecutor's office that requested a search be made for the hikers and dated Feb. 6? If forgeries, why? If the date was intentionally changed, why?

I'm sure forum members can add many more questions to this list.

February 19, 2020, 09:39:37 AM
Reply #1
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MDGross


Most importantly, if reliable answers to some of the aftermath questions can ever be found, then an explanation of the event itself might become clearer. Sort of like starting from the end and working backwards.

February 19, 2020, 12:03:41 PM
Reply #2
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WAB


As if explanations of the tragic event aren't controversial enough, questions raised by the event's aftermath seem equally if not more controversial.

I think you have very bad idea of the environment and the weather conditions in this place. That's why you don't understand, the many obstacles that were. It's understandable and traditional in this kind of search. Especially when you consider that the investigators were purely urban residents and were poorly adapted to such work in winter conditions in the north of the Urals. This is not exactly the North Pole, but the conditions there are much closer to the North Pole than even the conditions in the northernmost states of the USA.
Of course, I would like everything to be simple and clear from the very beginning, but what is there, that is, there will be no other. It is in such information conditions that one should carefully look into what happened then.

Here are just a few off the top of my head:
• Why wasn't there a more thorough examination of the site where each body was found?

I wrote about it in the preamble. If I can compare it with other similar events (no less mysterious), I can say that it describes everything in sufficient detail, although not quite exhaustively. There is a difference between our desires and our possibilities. And it exists not only with our possibilities...


• Why did the military use a Geiger counter in the initial search?

It's "noise" information. That is, there was a lot of talk about it, but nothing is actually confirmed. None of the search participants (actual participants, not those who heard something unclear where) confirm it. Then it is logical to ask the question: who, besides the search participants themselves, can know this reliably?

• Why did one of the helicopter crews refuse to transport bodies in fear of radiation?

It was not because of fear of radiation... Captain Viktor Potyazhenko, the helicopter commander, refused to do it because, according to sanitary standards, after the corpses are transported without reliable packaging, it will be necessary to do a large and complete sanitary treatment of the helicopter. He was spared his onboard equipment, which had to do it long and thoroughly. In addition, for such transportation, he had to be ordered by his commanders. This order did not exist, so he may not have carried out actions that do not concern him directly.
The next day, having received such an order and the necessary packing, the body was transported from the pass to Ivdel town.

• Why wasn't the tent more thoroughly examined and why was it quickly stored away?

The tent was be examined according to the instructions given by the investigator. It was to be inspected according to all instructions given by the investigator. So if you want something else, it should have been offered to the investigator. Since a time machine has not yet been invented, then it can be considered that it was examined according to the rules then available.

• Why were district attorneys present during the autopsies? Klinov for all nine and Ivanov for the first five. Did they suppress crucial information?

It's also from the field of rumors and conversations. The Klinov prosecutor himself was on the record (like all others except the doctor himself), but he was not there. It's a common practice in such events. I have participated in 20 such searches and it has always been so: the doctor does everything alone (or the two of them - on special instructions), and then the others read and ask him questions (often do not ask anything at all) and sign. Sometimes it happens that because of the rush, someone may not sign if it is not a very important investigation.
So there was nothing to suppress. Everything that was written there. You only need a professional understanding of the text. Many of those who have little understanding of such cases or are trying to find something that is not there and does not happen in reality, or are missing very important details that are very important. Only professionals with extensive experience in specific investigations can understand everything in sufficient detail. But there are practically no such professionals. Events like this are extremely rare, so strong professionals have nowhere to be.


• Why did Moscow take an interest? I think I read somewhere, though I may be mistaken, that even Khrushchev was made aware.

When many people die at once (in peacetime), this is necessarily reported to the first person of the state. It does not depend on its name: President of the USA, or Secretary General of the CPSU. I think that Khrushchev was reported in the order of operative information, but he certainly did not act in any way in this case. He had much more important things to do in the country and in the world.
Perhaps if the U.S. president is reported that 10 people died as a result of a car accident (God forbid, of course, it's just me - hypothetically), he too will not lead the investigation himself, but he will take note that there is such (or similar) problem.
From Moscow, the main prosecutor's office (USSR and RSFSR) was interested in this case, because it concerns them as the main higher structure. And this is usually the case in practice.

• What about the documents from the district prosecutor's office that requested a search be made for the hikers and dated Feb. 6? If forgeries, why? If the date was intentionally changed, why?

It's called "made a big deal out of a fly." A police officer (Captain Chudinov) was wrong about the date of the interrogation when he left on March 04, 1959. Look at the order in which the documents in the criminal case were stapled together. There, this protocol goes exactly in accordance with the course of events. Just between two logically defined events. The sheets are attached to the criminal case as they come in. You have to put it in the right place on purpose, if it's not what it was. Then the question arises: why did it have to be done? The protocol itself does not contain any significant information. It just doesn't make any sense.
According to the existing rules of bureaucracy, the number on the cover of the criminal case is set as it was first. Even if it is a mistake, the bureaucrats will do exactly that, because they were not investigators and do not know any details of events. This was done when the case was submitted to the archive, as it was necessary to do.
You can talk a lot about forgeries, but there is a perfectly logical and mandatory order, which is determined by law.
For preliminary investigation (and this case was started only as a preliminary one), 2 months of time is required. After that, it could be extended for another month with the consent of the chief prosecutor of the region. If no criminal events were found there, it made sense to extend it further, because it was necessary to obtain permission already in Moscow. Since a lot of money had been spent on such an investigation and search, no one expected that more would be given. For what reason should they have given it?
That's why the case was closed strictly by law: February 26 started, April 28 was extended by one month, May 28 was finished. No one was able to make any cuts. Otherwise, someone had problems with mathematics or with understanding the law.

I'm sure forum members can add many more questions to this list.

In order to solve the problem, it is necessary not to ask additional questions that do not make sense, but to give competent answers to those already posed. First of all, there is the main counter-question: what was so significant about this story? What is the purpose of all this conspiracy?
If it is because someone can not simple and real facts to answer the question: what was the first reason, why all that happened later?
That's no reason to attach a spy or similar script to a horror movie. You have a much simpler and more prosaic life than in movies. But in order to get to a simple explanation, it takes a lot and it's difficult to understand the small but important details.

PS. Oh! Now I'm going to get offended by Tim (and that's very fair!). Because I promised him, but they don't allow him to :(), but for him it takes a lot and a lot of detail to write, and I can't do it yet.

February 19, 2020, 12:04:22 PM
Reply #3
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WAB


Most importantly, if reliable answers to some of the aftermath questions can ever be found, then an explanation of the event itself might become clearer. Sort of like starting from the end and working backwards.

You're right about that, obviously.
By the way, in science this method of research is called: the solution of the reverse problem. This is when it is clear from the consequences what were the conditions. But it requires a large and accurate knowledge base and good calculation methods.

February 19, 2020, 12:06:57 PM
Reply #4
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Nigel Evans


As if explanations of the tragic event aren't controversial enough, questions raised by the event's aftermath seem equally if not more controversial.
Here are just a few off the top of my head:
• Why wasn't there a more thorough examination of the site where each body was found?
We don't know that there wasn't a thorough examination?
• Why did the military use a Geiger counter in the initial search?Because there was radiation.
• Why did one of the helicopter crews refuse to transport bodies in fear of radiation?See above.
• Why wasn't the tent more thoroughly examined and why was it quickly stored away?It was forensically examined which determined that the cuts were made from the inside.
• Why were district attorneys present during the autopsies? Klinov for all nine and Ivanov for the first five. Did they suppress crucial information?The assumption has to be Klinov was there to ensure a "death from hypothermia" verdict. With the ravine four this proved more tricky hence (after seeking consent from the hierarchy) the case was closed with "unknown compelling force".
• Why did Moscow take an interest? I think I read somewhere, though I may be mistaken, that even Khrushchev was made aware.They didn't just take an interest, they summoned Ivanov to Moscow who returned "a changed man". Thirty years later he apologized to the relatives with the excuse - "Beria was gone but his methods remained".
• What about the documents from the district prosecutor's office that requested a search be made for the hikers and dated Feb. 6? If forgeries, why? If the date was intentionally changed, why?It could be a typo of course.

I'm sure forum members can add many more questions to this list.
  • The problem with the "military accident" theory is that it begs the question - "why let civilians anywhere near the incident?". The only answer i can think of is that the accident happened elsewhere upwind of the tent (other side of Kholat) and the military just didn't know about the deaths until the rescuers and Tempalov were onsite. Tempalov was removed for Ivanov of course but the other civilians stayed onsite for months. Askenadzi states that they were told it was a missile.

February 19, 2020, 12:58:54 PM
Reply #5
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Tim


The Soviet Government had Communism to protect. That meant they had their people in all Universities , Especially to watch over Collage students.
This meant any expidetion taken had to meet University standards which The Soviet Government were aware of.
The Soviets knew their route, how long it should take them. Which means they would never have allowed any tourists to venture into a rocket test site, ever.
Rockets cost money, even in 1959, a predetermined Rocket test would of been scrubed until the weather permits it. I watched many Space Shuttle launches and have witnessed one rocket carrying  a satellite explode.
The Soviets were just as baffled as was to what happened. It was a no win for them and after three years of trying to find answers by closing off the mountain, they gave up as well.  In my humble opinion
Just an outside observation.

February 19, 2020, 01:50:03 PM
Reply #6
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MDGross


Hello WAB, Thank you for your insights and depth of knowledge about the workings of the Soviet bureaucracy in 1959.

I do question a few of your points. No doubt the weather was harsh in late February, but unlike the Dyatlov group, the searchers were warmly dressed. From the available photos, it didn't appear to be snowing. Then the last four bodies were recovered in May when the weather was relatively mild. It's basic protocol now as in 1959 to seal off the area where bodies are recovered. Photos show how the area was trampled before bodies were even removed. Perhaps evidence was lost.
The autopsy reports state that they were performed "in the presence of" Klinov. Maybe he was there and maybe he wasn't. Do you have credible evidence that shows he was not there?
Good insight about the helicopter pilot.
I also disagree with your opinion that "to solve the problem, it is necessary not to ask additional questions that do not make sense." Asking an initial question leads to additional questions. Perhaps answering an "additional" question will help answer the first question. I take no credit for the questions I raised in my first post. These are just some of the questions that many people have asked and I've just summarized. Whether the hikers were murdered/executed is open to debate. No one that I know of has presented credible evidence that they were. But do you have reliable evidence that they weren't? If so, please share the documentation with us.

Thanks again for your thoughts.
 

February 20, 2020, 08:10:51 AM
Reply #7
Online

lucid-nonsense


Quote
• Why wasn't there a more thorough examination of the site where each body was found?

What would you have liked to see? They were buried in snow, not much evidence to gather around them.

Quote
• Why did the military use a Geiger counter in the initial search?

It was not in the initial search but way later. My theory is that someone had a Geiger counter in the police building for unrelated reasons and they noticed it beeping near the DP case evidence.

Quote
• Why did one of the helicopter crews refuse to transport bodies in fear of radiation?

It was for fear of biological contamination.


February 20, 2020, 10:10:25 AM
Reply #8
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MDGross


No doubt evidence would be difficult to find given the winter conditions. Guess I was just hoping for a tiny piece of cloth, part of a fingernail, some Yeti fur (just kidding).

By initial search I meant the days in Feb. and March of the entire search before searchers returned in May. Your theory about the Geiger counter is reasonable, but remains speculation. Radiation from an exploded nuclear device can spread for many miles. Was the entire group exposed? Again, total speculation.

WAB as well made the point about biological contamination. I thought I read somewhere that the pilot demanded the bodies be placed in zinc coffins, but I'm probably wrong. Your point makes perfect sense.

February 20, 2020, 01:03:07 PM
Reply #9
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
As if explanations of the tragic event aren't controversial enough, questions raised by the event's aftermath seem equally if not more controversial.
Here are just a few off the top of my head:
• Why wasn't there a more thorough examination of the site where each body was found?
• Why did the military use a Geiger counter in the initial search?
• Why did one of the helicopter crews refuse to transport bodies in fear of radiation?
• Why wasn't the tent more thoroughly examined and why was it quickly stored away?
• Why were district attorneys present during the autopsies? Klinov for all nine and Ivanov for the first five. Did they suppress crucial information?
• Why did Moscow take an interest? I think I read somewhere, though I may be mistaken, that even Khrushchev was made aware.
• What about the documents from the district prosecutor's office that requested a search be made for the hikers and dated Feb. 6? If forgeries, why? If the date was intentionally changed, why?

I'm sure forum members can add many more questions to this list.

Well all the things that you have listed have been brought up in this Forum before. And many more questions are found through out the Forum.
DB

February 20, 2020, 01:04:07 PM
Reply #10
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Nigel Evans


No doubt evidence would be difficult to find given the winter conditions. Guess I was just hoping for a tiny piece of cloth, part of a fingernail, some Yeti fur (just kidding).

By initial search I meant the days in Feb. and March of the entire search before searchers returned in May. They didn't return in May, they were there all the time, triple probing every square metre of 1500 hectares of mountain. A team of circa 30 men supplied only from the air including KGB and "other units" plus the civilians from the university of course. Your theory about the Geiger counter is reasonable, but remains speculation. Radiation from an exploded nuclear device can spread for many miles. Was the entire group exposed? Again, total speculation.

WAB as well made the point about biological contamination. I thought I read somewhere that the pilot demanded the bodies be placed in zinc coffins, but I'm probably wrong. Your point makes perfect sense. I think WAB is correct.

February 21, 2020, 02:25:28 AM
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Monika


Hello.
I add my explanation (my opinion)

As if explanations of the tragic event aren't controversial enough, questions raised by the event's aftermath seem equally if not more controversial.
Here are just a few off the top of my head:
• Why wasn't there a more thorough examination of the site where each body was found?
- Exploring in such a remote and lonely place where it happened is difficult. And it must be remembered that in 50 years there was no such technology. We are already used to watching movies, eg. CSI, and we see a perfect technology and investigator access. But you have to realize that in those years Russia was poor, decimated by WW II and had many other problems. Life in Russia was much harder than eg. in the USA, many people can't imagine that. In Russia, it was used to live sparingly, simply, and human life was seen differently than in rich countries with "more spoiled" people. Therefore, it was possible to approach the investigation more soberly and try to close it quickly. There was no room for some experiments and long explorations. I find it very sad that families had to struggle to bury their children at the cemetery in Sverslovsk. The authorities wanted to bury them in Ivdel. This was cynical and inhuman, but the authorities wanted to prevent tabloids and sensationalism. I also grew up in a country where the Communist regime reigned for some time and the tabloid was banned in our country because the image of the country was supposed to be spotless.
• Why did the military use a Geiger counter in the initial search?
- maybe a paranoia and carried it all the time, especially to remote and uninhabited places.
• Why did one of the helicopter crews refuse to transport bodies in fear of radiation?
- because the Geiger counter was used and pilots were worried just this fact. What would you do if you go by public transport and suddenly someone pulls out the Geiger counter . Even if nothing is found, you'd rather get out of the vehicle.
• Why wasn't the tent more thoroughly examined and why was it quickly stored away?
• Why were district attorneys present during the autopsies? Klinov for all nine and Ivanov for the first five. Did they suppress crucial information?
• Why did Moscow take an interest? I think I read somewhere, though I may be mistaken, that even Khrushchev was made aware.
- Khruschev and Moscow were interested because the Dyatlov's expedition was supposed to be on honor of some holiday (or something similar) in Russia, and to show the public how young people were able to entertain and that youth sports were promoted in Russia. And Dyatlov's group was known throughout the country and the expedition was supposed to be a triumph.
• What about the documents from the district prosecutor's office that requested a search be made for the hikers and dated Feb. 6? If forgeries, why? If the date was intentionally changed, why?
- there should be an error in the date, the Gregorian calendar was used.

I add on your list this question:
• Why didn't many testimonies about unexplained ball lightning over the area reported by many people were not included in the investigation file?
• Why did not the investigator attach Zolotarev's diary, which he should have in his hand when he found his body, to the investigation file?
• Why was the first investigator (Ivanov) removed from the investigation?
•  Why wasn't  burned  upper branches of the tree near to first two victims examined? Ivanov suspected that the branches were directly hit by a beam.

February 21, 2020, 10:30:38 AM
Reply #12
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MDGross


Monica, Good questions to add to the list. Yes, I'm guilty of not seeing clearly how the hard and difficult life in the Soviet Union at that time impacted the investigation. You are absolutely correct. And perhaps many of the questions on my list can simply be explained by the way the Soviet bureaucracy operated at that time.

February 21, 2020, 12:06:46 PM
Reply #13
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Monty


Happy to be corrected if my recollection is wrong but something else that puzzles me is the speed at which the tent was found. The search began 21st Feb and the tent located 26th Feb. The total proposed route was 350km admitting some back tracking. They could have been anywhere on the route. I think the tent was spotted from the air, so assume they were flying the proposed route. But the tent was 1.5km off route. Eagle eyes slobtsov?

February 24, 2020, 12:49:29 PM
Reply #14
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Happy to be corrected if my recollection is wrong but something else that puzzles me is the speed at which the tent was found. The search began 21st Feb and the tent located 26th Feb. The total proposed route was 350km admitting some back tracking. They could have been anywhere on the route. I think the tent was spotted from the air, so assume they were flying the proposed route. But the tent was 1.5km off route. Eagle eyes slobtsov?

Well that is still some time  !  ?  It would have been a lucky shot if the Tent was found on the first day of the search.
DB

February 24, 2020, 01:00:37 PM
Reply #15
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Monty


I find it interesting how quickly the tent was located. The first photo appears to show the tent half or more covered with ice/snow. February may have only a few daylight hours each day and the helicopter must have had to return to its base each time. Surprisingly it took a further three months to find the remaining four.
Really was like finding a needle in a haystack.

February 24, 2020, 11:41:14 PM
Reply #16
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Nigel Evans


I find it interesting how quickly the tent was located. The first photo appears to show the tent half or more covered with ice/snow. February may have only a few daylight hours each day and the helicopter must have had to return to its base each time. Surprisingly it took a further three months to find the remaining four.
Really was like finding a needle in a haystack.
Not really that surprising, the rescue team knew the planned route and just found and then followed the ski tracks?


March 07, 2020, 03:32:53 AM
Reply #17
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Per Inge Oestmoen


As if explanations of the tragic event aren't controversial enough, questions raised by the event's aftermath seem equally if not more controversial.
Here are just a few off the top of my head:
• Why wasn't there a more thorough examination of the site where each body was found?
• Why did the military use a Geiger counter in the initial search?
• Why did one of the helicopter crews refuse to transport bodies in fear of radiation?
• Why wasn't the tent more thoroughly examined and why was it quickly stored away?
• Why were district attorneys present during the autopsies? Klinov for all nine and Ivanov for the first five. Did they suppress crucial information?
• Why did Moscow take an interest? I think I read somewhere, though I may be mistaken, that even Khrushchev was made aware.
• What about the documents from the district prosecutor's office that requested a search be made for the hikers and dated Feb. 6? If forgeries, why? If the date was intentionally changed, why?

I'm sure forum members can add many more questions to this list.


Because the Dyatlov pass tragedy was no accident.

How could the authorities have prepared for an investigation on February 6, long before anyone locally in Sverdlovsk had any reason to believe that something had happened to the hikers?

Just consider this carefully: If the governmental authorities had completed a report on February 6, they must have known about the fate of the Dyatlov group before that. How could that be, when everyone else assumed that everything was okay?

- Then read through all the autopsy reports available on this site. Consider all the injuries. Are these injuries likely to be the results of accidents?

April 06, 2020, 07:41:39 AM
Reply #18
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mk



• Why did the military use a Geiger counter in the initial search?

It's "noise" information. That is, there was a lot of talk about it, but nothing is actually confirmed. None of the search participants (actual participants, not those who heard something unclear where) confirm it. Then it is logical to ask the question: who, besides the search participants themselves, can know this reliably?

You may not have read the interview with Vladimir Askinadzi https://dyatlovpass.com/askinadzi?rbid=18461.  He took part in the search and found Lyudmila Dubininа. He states, "I learned about radiation only when the case was declassified. True, there was a Moscow radiologist with a dosimeter there on the pass. He took measurements, but we were not informed about the results." 

Even so, there may be nothing significant about that.

April 07, 2020, 04:46:41 AM
Reply #19
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neni_cesty_zpet


Hello, here are some facts that I gathered:

1) Semyon Zolotaryov - After the victory he graduated from Minsk Institute of Physical Culture. He left for Lermontov, a closed city due to uranium mining. He got a job as a physical education teacher.
2) Yuri Krivonischenko worked in a most notorious “P.O. Box*” – the plant “Mayak*” in Chelyabinsk-40, where a massive nuclear disaster, second in severity only to Chernobyl, occurred in 1957.
3) Aleksander Kolevatov: before transferring to the Physics-Technical department at the UPI, he worked in Moscow as a laboratory assistant in a top-secret scientific facility, an unnamed “atomic” institute known as “P.O. Box No. 3394”

To me, using radioactive detection device (e.g. Geiger counter) was an intelligible alternative to avalanche probes. I cannot make an educated guess about sensitity of these devices (or specific device it this case which type is probably unknown) but it has it's logic since they had no idea where and how deep the bodies were and it was known that some people in the group came in touch with radioactivity
before.
Or it was just act of pure desperation because the search had been taking too much time already.

Basically, this part of 'story' is no mystery to me at all and it does not lead me to any conspirative thinking.

sources:
https://dyatlovpass.com/theories
https://dyatlovpass.com/zolotaryov-exhumation

Personally, I can see some 'red lights' when reading about Semyon Zolotaryov, but it will fit into another thread.

April 10, 2020, 03:07:25 AM
Reply #20
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Naufragia


"Why did Moscow take an interest? I think I read somewhere, though I may be mistaken, that even Khrushchev was made aware".

Rimma Kolevatova sent a telegram to Krushchev on 26 February requesting assistance with the search. See https://dyatlovpass.com/rescuers?lid=1#telegram.

April 10, 2020, 03:17:59 AM
Reply #21
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neni_cesty_zpet


It's common practise to inform president/prime minister if such unusual/terrible incident happens.

I live in Czech Republic, cannot speak for all countries, but
when something unusual happens here, like gas explosion in family house, some hospital accident, methanol poisoning.... then these highly ranked people are informed very quicky and
soon appear on TV and in newspapers saying things like : "We are sorry to the families, we are working hard to make sure in does not happen again, Please dont panic......."

Nothing mysterious to me.

April 10, 2020, 03:06:41 PM
Reply #22
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
"Why did Moscow take an interest? I think I read somewhere, though I may be mistaken, that even Khrushchev was made aware".

Rimma Kolevatova sent a telegram to Krushchev on 26 February requesting assistance with the search. See https://dyatlovpass.com/rescuers?lid=1#telegram.


It's common practise to inform president/prime minister if such unusual/terrible incident happens.

I live in Czech Republic, cannot speak for all countries, but
when something unusual happens here, like gas explosion in family house, some hospital accident, methanol poisoning.... then these highly ranked people are informed very quicky and
soon appear on TV and in newspapers saying things like : "We are sorry to the families, we are working hard to make sure in does not happen again, Please dont panic......."

Nothing mysterious to me.

Thats correct, there is nothing really mysterious about a Leader being informed of such an event. The mystery is after the Authorities are informed and their subsequent actions. It does appear that Instructions came down from upon high to the people in the Search Parties. And the main and final Instruction appears to have been CLOSE DOWN THE AREA IMMEDIATELY AND WRAP UP THE MATTER. 
DB