August 09, 2020, 04:24:19 AM
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Author Topic: Dyatlov vs. Chivruay  (Read 1961 times)

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May 07, 2020, 08:43:18 AM
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Teddy

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Why compare incidents that have nothing in common? The Dyatlov Pass incident opens the door for a lot of speculation. If I could discover so much while not believing they are related in any way, then imagine what a blast the media would have. Nor is Chivruay Pass the only one, Hamar-Daban follows on its heels. The renaissance of interest garnered by the Dyatlov Pass incident is now expanding to cover multiple deaths in the mountains under mysterious - or not so mysterious - circumstances. The mystery for many begins by wondering why would anyone venture there in first place. Personally, I enjoyed this research immensely. The Chivruay Pass incident is interesting on its own, and doesn't need the overshadowing mystery of the Dyatlov case.

May 07, 2020, 09:03:46 AM
Reply #1
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Nigel Evans


It would be nice if the negative for this photo of the Chivruay group was found :-

 
« Last Edit: May 07, 2020, 10:08:10 AM by Teddy »

May 07, 2020, 09:14:03 AM
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Teddy

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I wish to see more photos in general. This is the only photo we know of, not a single other photo. If they could develop this one there must be a film somewhere. Mark my words - this case is just starting. Malakhov called Borzenkov an secret agent just because this was his first appearance on TV about this case and he was trying to cool down the paranoia. Russians are insane about this case because they have to fill in bigger gaps. We have so many photos and diaries from Dyatlov group, and Chivruay case has only this photo. I don't think a negative of just one photo makes any difference. We need the whole film.

P.S. Just to be clear, all the rest of the photos you see are from other treks, not even the same people.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2020, 09:59:17 AM by Teddy »

May 07, 2020, 10:08:37 AM
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Teddy

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This album is called "Meryachenie" - the mind clouding on Chivruay plateau
https://shop.sketismusic.ru/en/hara-meryachenie

May 07, 2020, 10:43:08 AM
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Teddy

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These are the same Sami that populate Khibinskie and Lovozerskiye Tundry bordering with Finland (Lapland).


May 07, 2020, 10:43:07 PM
Reply #5
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Nigel Evans


I wish to see more photos in general. This is the only photo we know of, not a single other photo. If they could develop this one there must be a film somewhere. Mark my words - this case is just starting. Malakhov called Borzenkov an secret agent just because this was his first appearance on TV about this case and he was trying to cool down the paranoia. Russians are insane about this case because they have to fill in bigger gaps. We have so many photos and diaries from Dyatlov group, and Chivruay case has only this photo. I don't think a negative of just one photo makes any difference. We need the whole film.

P.S. Just to be clear, all the rest of the photos you see are from other treks, not even the same people.
No photos, no autopsies. Presumably the case is still closed, not public domain.

May 07, 2020, 11:40:32 PM
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Teddy

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No photos, no autopsies. Presumably the case is still closed, not public domain.
You should read my article. I am talking about the case files here https://dyatlovpass.com/chivruay-incident-5?lid=1&flp=1#classified
After 25 years documents are destroyed by law unless an investigator takes up on the case. This case was clear and shut. There was no investigation or even if there was, which was usual practice back then - read more of my articles in this order:
https://dyatlovpass.com/dropped-on-orders-from-above
https://dyatlovpass.com/the-route-not-traveled and

This media noise around the case is created now by Russian Channel 1, started by Voctor Voroshilov who unfortunately was brutally killed and this fueled the "mystery". This is why I wrote Dyatloov vs Chivruay.

For everyone close to the deceased this case was clear - snowstorm, underestimating the rookies, splitting the group in 3.
The investigation, even if there was one is long destroyed. It is very easy to say - conspiracy, they are hiding the truth etc. BS That's not the case here. The only mystery for me is why are they comparing Dyatlov with Chivruay. Dyatlov is the real real McCoy.

May 07, 2020, 11:55:23 PM
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Teddy

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no autopsies

There were autopsies because one of the hikers in the tent is said to have oxygen deprivation - they were rapped in this tarpaulin, so there was an autopsy, or at least coroner's external examination. Since there is no case file then it must be classified of 75 years only because 47 years are passed so it can be closed for just 25. Nobody cared till now. Even the twin brother of Anatoliy Pirigov - Vladimir Pirogov is convinced that it was freak incident related to the weather. Victor Voroshilov, the cousin of that same Anatoliy Pirigov wanted some excitement in his life, wanted to be on TV, so he started digging with the help of psychics and esoterics. I ma sure that he was a decent man, he was actually on our forum too. The fact is that in Russia business altercation often end up with blunt force trauma to the head and gasoline.

May 08, 2020, 04:32:55 AM
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Nigel Evans


It's a long article!  kewl1

May 08, 2020, 04:51:16 AM
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Teddy

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You telling me? It started as a prologue to Borzenkov's memoirs "Chivruay 1973. How it really happened."
This is why I took my sweet time to publish it. I was writing Dyatlov vs Chivruay so they can come out at the same time.
I have more to say but it was taking absurdly long time. It is a process. I learned a lot about Dyatlov case while I was comparing it to Chivruay. It doesn't matter how little do they have in common. It is still very interesting article I reckon.

May 08, 2020, 05:51:19 PM
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PJ


Comparing Dyatlov Pass incident vs. Chivruay tragedy is a nonsend, looking for sensations and lack of respect for families and friend of the victims. The Chivruay tragedy is explained and very logic. Accident as many others all over the world, same as Hamar-Daban tragedy...

May 09, 2020, 12:32:16 AM
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Teddy

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PJ, yes, I agree.
Being a mountaineer, can you tell me what do you think made them get up on fist place and then, if there is a sudden change of weather, why would 5 of them leave the tent? Again, I am not asking this Dyatlov perspective, just looking solely on Chivruay incident. Their behavior is still strange to me. Not Yeti and "meryacheniye" - Arctic hysteria, but still... This place, Chivrauy Pass, is not difficult as they make it sounds. Here are photos of the same trek KuAI group did. It is a site for treks with kids!
Bad weather can happen anywhere. Some of them were experienced.  Iliya Altshuller didn't take his gloves (and this is confirmed with a photo Borzenkov has). Where were they going? The ones in the tent were in the most disadvantageous place possible for a snowstorm.  Why go up there if the weather is worsening? And then you can still survive if you stay put in the tent, all of them, for 2-3 days. In this case there was no sign of the storm the next day, when they were found by the next passing hiking group. This is a very popular place and no one ever died in this particular way - from the weather. As I said: the Chivruay Pass incident is interesting on its own, and doesn't need the overshadowing mystery of the Dyatlov case.

I have another title for all three incidents - Dyatlov Pass, Chivruay Pass and Hamar-Daban Pass instead of deadly Passes.
"We shouldn't be dead" ©
« Last Edit: May 09, 2020, 12:50:05 AM by Teddy »

May 09, 2020, 01:21:53 PM
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PJ


I think that in the Chivruay incident the main factor is weather that change rapidly and beyond any expectations. But of course there are other factors that make it tragic too.

Most of the day they was hiking in the Chivruay valley, they were hidden from wind and probably the wind wasn't strong till afternoon or evening. After they walk over the Chivruay Pass and the wind was picking up they not expected it will be that strong till it was too late.
The meteo station reported wind of 150km/h, up in mountains was for sure more, and generally with wind over 100km/h you are not able to walk. The temperature was reported -28C at night and down in valley so even if at the evening was -20C in mountains together with wind of 100km/h windchill (temperature that you really feel) was -40C and with wind 150km/h windchill was -50C. They not expected something like that so wasn't ready for it at all.

So why they decided to go over the Chivruay Pass.
They was hiking few hours by the  Chivruay valley in good weather, made the ascent of 300m vertical to Chivruay Pass, and only in this place they find out the weather is not perfect, there was 3 option:
- go back to Chivruay Valley - the only decision that could save them but they didn't know that yet, and because they just climbed up, nobody want go back there to do it again next day. As well they didn't think about returning because they wanted go with schedule, this is one of the problem with organized groups that you have schedule and you do no want to change it without serious reasons. This was very strong factor in making decisions about going ahead specially in Soviet Union where the route was officially approved, stamped, signed. You had plan and you should follow it, this is common factor with Chivruay Pass and Hamar-Daban tragedy. The weather wasn't that bad yet on Chivruay Pass so they decided go ahead.
-they could go straight down to Kuftuay River but the descent was 40-45 degrees so not possible to do on snow with heavy backpacks without crampons, specially with 4 novice hikers
-take the easy descent by exposed to wind and without fast escape route.
Another problem in decision taking, in this case was a fact that there was 2 leaders(two joined groups) so non of them wanted to take the decision about going back, they look on each other and feel that situation is under control.
So as they decided to go ahead, it was even harder to decide about return even if the weather start worsening. They was going up to the wind so they could relativity easy turn around and go back to Chivruay Pass(going with the wind is much easier) but as the wind increase and temperature dropped that they start suffer from hypothermia and before making the critical decision about return (it wasn't too late yet) one of the members collapsed, wasn't able to walk anymore. This is why they decided to stop and go into the tent. The other 5 more experienced members went to check other possibilities of descent but never returned. At this point the only possible chance to survive for some of them was to return immediately to Chivruay Pass and down to Chivruay Valley. They couldn't survive in this place where was the tent or anywhere around. Even if they will stay all together, they will die, the temperature windchill was below -50C. But again, they didn't know that such a strong wind is coming.

Is hard to blame any of the leaders for what happened there, they die because it was something as "perfect storm". Something similar to tragedy on Everest in 1996 or Peak Lenina in 1974 (nice article, worth of reading: https://edition.cnn.com/interactive/2020/01/sport/russian-climbers-peak-lenin-spt-intl/ )
« Last Edit: May 10, 2020, 12:22:11 AM by Teddy »

May 09, 2020, 01:40:06 PM
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Nigel Evans


But why would they lie down on the tent with the windward man holding the end over him and not get in it? Or find sufficient shelter to erect it? It's more mysterious than just extreme cold (imo).

May 09, 2020, 04:26:54 PM
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PJ


But why would they lie down on the tent with the windward man holding the end over him and not get in it? Or find sufficient shelter to erect it? It's more mysterious than just extreme cold (imo).

"They were inside a tent made of one piece of cloth" or "Kuznetsov and four members of the KuAI group, who stayed with the tent actually sat on top of the tarpaulin and wrapped the tent around themselves like a taco."
And about the tent: "This is a bag measuring 2 by 1.5 m (6.5 by 4.9 ft). Initially it was made of thin tarpaulin. Later on, when new materials were introduced was manufactured from percale with aluminium coating; weighs 1 kg (2,2 lb). "

So basically it was bivy bag, so they use it in correct way. In high wind it is not possible to erect tent, the terrain around was flat, or almost vertical down. As well, as I written before, I think that they stopped where one of members wasn't able to go anymore, otherwise they could turn around and go with the wind back to the pass - The other 5 members was still able to walk so the wind in this moment wasn't that strong yet.

May 10, 2020, 12:21:31 AM
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Teddy

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I think that they stopped where one of members wasn't able to go anymore, otherwise they could turn around and go with the wind back to the pass - The other 5 members was still able to walk so the wind in this moment wasn't that strong yet.

Where were the ones that could still walk going? That's the the only and main problem with this group. Borzenkov said they were looking for the way down. You don't go scouting in the dark, in the storm and without gloves. If one of the guys can't walk anymore all of the pitch a tent and sing songs till the storm is over. This has happened many times, it is described by Borzenkov, it is the survival manual by Lukoyanov - Safety in skiing and extreme winter conditions (see p.122):

"In March 1963 a group from the Moscow hiking club "Spartacus" went through Chivruay-Ladv in the opposite direction - from Umbozero lake to Seydozero lake. Didn't have any problem scaling the steep slope of the cirque. They stopped for a break on top of the plateau. The March sun was warm. They were relaxed. Someone accidentally looked in the direction of the mine: an ominous cloud hung over the Elmorayok Pass. The edges of the grey mass swirled constantly changing its shape. The first gust of wind swept through the plateau. Then snow came blowing. The clouds were growing rapidly already closing half of the sky. The sun faded. The group hurried to the head of the northern stream. A strong gust of wind came over like a big wall. After a short lull, fury began. The snow hit as blast from a giant cannon.
The leader of the group, an experienced skier, G. Shapkin, insisted on stopping the descent and setting up a tent. Not all members agreed, but in the end the decision was made. For three days the group waited, huddled into the tent on top of the plateau for the blizzard to subside. They didn't carry primuses - portable stoves - and couldn't heat their food or melt snow. They had to dig out the tent from drifts many times. Their sleeping bags and clothes were wet. But they didn't fall into despondency and recklessness. On the morning of the fourth day, the March sun rewarded their endurance.
The group met a rescue squad in the forest of the Chivruay valley and they drank a bucket of hot compote. The rescuers showed wholehearted generosity. This case is described in details in their reports. Too bad it was not published. Maybe it would help others."

What we have in the KuAI group are open backpacks, sleeping bags and warm clothes scattered all over the plateau and 5 people walking around like zombies. It doesn't sound normal to me.

The article you posted seems very interesting. I will reward myself by reading it after I finish another crazy sequence of articles I am working on - the interest of the lead investigator in light events in the sky. I already published his piece "Mystery of the fireballs", but it turned out that there is a follow up by Stanislav Bogomolov in 1990, and he started answering questions again in 2019, so we need to hear him :) Never been published in English before. He talked to Ivanov himself.

May 10, 2020, 12:49:29 AM
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Nigel Evans



So basically it was bivy bag, so they use it in correct way. In high wind it is not possible to erect tent, the terrain around was flat, or almost vertical down. As well, as I written before, I think that they stopped where one of members wasn't able to go anymore, otherwise they could turn around and go with the wind back to the pass - The other 5 members was still able to walk so the wind in this moment wasn't that strong yet.
But no use of sleeping bags, no snow wall, even with some of the group clearly able bodied.

May 10, 2020, 12:36:52 PM
Reply #17
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PJ


Where were the ones that could still walk going? That's the the only and main problem with this group. Borzenkov said they were looking for the way down. You don't go scouting in the dark, in the storm and without gloves. If one of the guys can't walk anymore all of the pitch a tent and sing songs till the storm is over.
The problem is that when they stopped, it was too late to pitch the tent anywhere around, wind was too strong, but not too strong for walking yet. So the 5 was waiting (4 of them were 17 years old!!! - kids) while the 5 other just look around for descent, as you said, was dark and windy so you not scouting in group of 10 for descent. When the two groups was looking for descent the wind increased to the speed that make walking not possible, game was over. They not expected that the wind will be so strong. The leaders was young(24 and 23) so with not big experience with group management.

What we have in the KuAI group are open backpacks, sleeping bags and warm clothes scattered all over the plateau and 5 people walking around like zombies. It doesn't sound normal to me.
But no use of sleeping bags, no snow wall, even with some of the group clearly able bodied.
When they stopped, they just wanted to wait for the scouters so nobody open backpack, take sleeping bags. When the scouters not returned and wind increased they wasn't able to do much - wind to strong(is really hard to do anything in wind over 100km/h but there was wind much stronger) and they all suffer from hypothermia already, even if they open backpack to take some extra clothes or sleeping bag it could be blown out.
And yes, in high wind, blizzard and dark people are walking like a zombie
They made series of wrong decisions because nobody was expecting that wind will be so strong.
And we can't compare the March 1963 to January 1973 without weather reports, in March they was able to put the tent and stay inside it, wind was below 80km/h I guess and definitely much warmer, maybe even around 0.

Do we know where were backpack from the 5 that went scouting? did they find them at the tent? or somewhere else?

May 10, 2020, 01:05:05 PM
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Teddy

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Do we know where were backpack from the 5 that went scouting? did they find them at the tent? or somewhere else?

All backpacks are left at the tent.

May 10, 2020, 01:10:15 PM
Reply #19
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Teddy

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See p.16 - real photos of how the last body was found.
https://dyatlovpass.com/chivruay-incident-2

May 10, 2020, 01:15:35 PM
Reply #20
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PJ


So if all backpack were left at the "tent" it clearly mean the 2+3 went for scouting only but couldn't return to them.
I saw that photo on p.16, the body is without backpack, but it not mean that it was left that the tent, it could be somewhere else.

May 10, 2020, 01:38:35 PM
Reply #21
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Teddy

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We don't have such a thorough account of the inventory what was found where. No pics, no diaries, and it doesn't mean there were none. On the show when Borzenkov was asked directly where are the films from cameras, he said that they couldn't account for all of their belongings because (1) the wind blew their stuff all over and (2) the route is very popular and a lot of trekkers pass by. Basically he is saying we found some stuff and shipped it all to Kirovsk. What happened after that with it was i the case files which were destroyed by law due to lack of interest in 25 years. All friends and relatives basically say what you are saying, and although mourned and dearly missed, no one ever questioned the tragedy as anything more than a freak incident. Till last year. And you will witness how this incident will snowball into Dyatlov Pass.

May 10, 2020, 01:47:41 PM
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Teddy

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I got carried away and didn't say what Borzenkov answer was - that as far as he is concerned the cameras could still be there under the stones. The plateau is covered with them stones. BUT if we have 1 photos that means there was a film developed and where are the rest of the photos from this films. I don't think the modern media "investigators" are asking the right question which means they are doing it for the ratings.

Now, Komsomolskaya pravda seem to have grown a real interest. I like the Varsegov Natalya and Nikolay. They have been reporting the case for years. She tried to walk barefoot in the snow (in socks), I just don't remember if she did it on the Kholat Syakhl. (changed the link)

« Last Edit: May 10, 2020, 01:57:32 PM by Teddy »

May 10, 2020, 02:00:41 PM
Reply #23
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Nigel Evans


From memory one of the men gave some of his clothing to a female member. But no use of sleeping bags, lying on the tent rather than lying inside. No snow wall etc. It is weird.

May 10, 2020, 02:19:20 PM
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Teddy

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From memory one of the men gave some of his clothing to a female member. But no use of sleeping bags, lying on the tent rather than lying inside. No snow wall etc. It is weird.
You can refresh your memory from here https://dyatlovpass.com/chivruay-incident-5?lid=1&flp=1#undressing

May 10, 2020, 02:54:38 PM
Reply #25
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PJ


All files was destroyed because case was closed and explained - completely normal, if families were not interested of having photos from the last trip nobody keep it.

They definitely was inside the tent, wrapped in it, like bivy bag, it is the only thing they could do in high wind, all modern tents this days are damaged in 150km/h wind so it was not possible for them to do anything else; they just wanted wait a bit first so didn't take sleeping bags out or build some snow wall(not sure there was enough snow to build snow wall - it could be cleared by wind or the structure of snow could be not suitable to build anything from it)
"Another point Borzenkov made was that the five members of the group found inside the tent tried to put more clothes on and take out their sleeping bags out of the backpacks, but the wind blew all items away, and were found scattered all over the plateau." - so when it was very bad, they try to do something, was too late. Looks like that they made reactions to situation but not try to make any projections how it could be in hour, two and five, probably because of lack of experience. Generally it is very interesting that a leadership were given to very young people in Dyatlov Pass and Chivruay Pass incidents, going on a multi-day hike in winter is not an easy thing... quite strange standard in Soviet Union :/

I do not see anything suspicious in this case, the meteo reported wind 150km/h and -28C that evening/night, it is not possible to survive in conditions like that.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2020, 04:22:00 PM by PJ »

May 11, 2020, 04:25:56 PM
Reply #26
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TXevL17UDg&feature=youtu.be&t=2m18s

It is possible to survive outdoors in extremely low temperatures and taking into account wind chill factor.  But you would still need to be dressed properly to survive for even an hour or more. We dont know the exact Temperature or Wind Chill Factor at the time of the Dyatlov Incident.
DB

May 11, 2020, 11:42:17 PM
Reply #27
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Teddy

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I hear you and I am still not convinced as of why and when the 5 split. To me the whole case would be natural* if they climbed up early and stopped for the view. Then clouds started accumulating and they had to go down fast but they were not sure of the point where to go down. The weather could be so good that the 5 didn't even know the danged they are in. Altshuller may have smoked a cigarette and taken his gloves off or not at all. And then comes a flash blizzard, something like a micro burst. The key problem being it happened suddenly. This is teh only way I can explain the 5 being away from the tent and the tent not being pitched when it dawn on them how bad it is.
* According to all calculations - they couldn't have been on the plateau early. Borzenkov said that for the tent to be properly stretched they need trees. There last trees are close to the mouth of Chivruay river.


On you remark about the photos and families - I don't think anybody will throw away the last photos of their child. I think we will still see more photos. They will resurface. We are prepared with information we have so far to witness the coverage of this case in media.

May 12, 2020, 04:42:47 PM
Reply #28
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PJ


I think that it not happens suddenly.
I could understand that they didnt want go back to Chivruay Valley so after climbing on Chivruay Pass they keep going as long as they could, they do not allow the option(critical mistake as we know today) that the wind will be too strong for continuing the hike on the plateau. When they find out it is not possible go further they still try to find out other way down instead all returning to Chivruay Valley(another critical mistake), after splitting it was matter of minutes they all get lots and were not able to return because of wind.
In 1996 on Everest and on Peak Lenina in 1974 they made the same mistake: Not take into account the fact that the weather will be very bad, just keeping false hope that will be not that bad as long as it was too bad and too late to do anything. And on Everest and on Peak Lenina the climbers were much more experienced than on Chivruay Pass. Miscalculation. The most common cause of accidents in the mountains.

May 12, 2020, 11:55:34 PM
Reply #29
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Teddy

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And that's a wrap. I agree with you that this is the most possible scenario of the tragedy on Chivruay Pass.