December 01, 2020, 07:18:38 AM
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Author Topic: Team Dyatlov's division of labor (esp. watch duty)?  (Read 207 times)

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November 21, 2020, 02:47:09 PM
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RMK


The diaries of "Team Dyatlov" refer several times to the tasks that had to be done to keep their expedition going, e.g. preparing food, waxing skis, making camp, and packing up in the morning.  Certainly, there seems to have been some contention over the task of reinforcing the stitching of the tent, which seemed to need doing on a near-daily basis.  Anyhow, my guess is that some work was considered an "all-hands" sort of job, whereas other responsibilities were rotated among group members.  But, is there anything known from reliable sources about how Dyatlov & co. apportioned these necessary chores?

I'm especially curious about how nighttime watch duty worked.  I think I have a pretty good idea, but I have no clue how correct I am.  So, please tell me right or wrong I might be here...  Each night, the two hikers on watch duty dress more warmly than the rest.  One watchperson is on duty for the first half of the night, during which time the other watchperson sleeps.  The one on duty sits awake next to the tent entrance, whereas the other sleeps at the rear of the tent (that is, in the draftiest and second-draftiest positions in the tent, respectively, although the rear is also close to the stove).  Halfway through the night, the first-shift watchperson wakes their second-shift counterpart, and the two switch places.  For the second half of the night, the second-shift watchperson sits awake by the entrance to the tent, while the first-shift watchperson sleeps.

Also, apparently whoever is on watch duty wears a second wristwatch during their shift, to ensure they don't lose track of time??  Is that a documented fact, or is it merely an attempt to explain why Thibeaux-Brignolle had two watches on his wrist?

(Sorry if my post seems overly verbose--I just wanted to make sure it's clear.  This is my first post on this board, but I've been lurking here long enough to know that a lot of users here aren't native speakers of English, and that this community seems to rely a lot on machine translation.)

November 23, 2020, 02:14:52 PM
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Jean Daniel Reuss



..................................
 The one on duty .................
..................................


      1)  ••• I also think there were one or two hikers on night duty who stayed dressed to be able to work outside. But I think these two hikers slept indoors when conditions were good.

The hikers in the group were on holiday in a wild, isolated and almost deserted area.

Normally there were no worries apart from the expected natural difficulties of cold and wind.

On the other hand there was a risk, but it was neither dramatic nor significant.
The risk was that the force of the wind would tear off one or more of the tent pegs on the snow-covered surface.

Then you had to be able to get out immediately so that you could replant the pegs in the snow.

Each night, one hiker on night duty, dressed more warmly than the rest, but slept inside.

It was useless to stay outside to guard because there was nothing to see outside.

When a gust of wind stronger than the others tore a peg out (which was a difficult possibility to eliminate) then the tent canvas would collapse (and probably the hikers were awake).

Then the hiker on nigtht duty, the one who was fully dressed, would go outside alone and quicly, and could (in principle) repair the damage in a few minutes, by re-securing the tent.

The other hikers could quietly lie down inside to rest and sleep.



      2)  •••    Under normal circumstances, I think that the division of tasks in Dyatlov's group would have gone without difficulty. But this was an exceptional time because there remains what I call :  "the mystery of the sudden change in Luydmila (Lyuda) Dubinina's mental state". See :

Teddy :  Victims and Case Files > Victims > Lyudmila Dubinina > Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death
May 12, 2019, 04:31:56 AM
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=433.0


sabine : May 12, 2019, 08:59:04 AM      =>    Reply #1
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=433.msg5845#msg5845

         ... But  the big question remains: what caused this deterioration of her mood ? ...
     

As a matter of fact Dubinina had written in her diary :
".......................................
The mood is evil (horrible). Seems it is going to be evil (horrible) for about two more days. I am mad as hell (as a devil)"
..........................................."

sabine : May 12, 2019, 08:59:04 AM      =>    Reply #1
    "What's really odd about these few sentences is that Lyuda doesn't give us the slightest hint, why her mood is so bad.
....................................................
       This is very interesting insofar as she seems to know quite well what causes her bad mood and when it will end.
.....................................................
       To me it seems that she knows quite well what exactly is upsetting her! Unfortunately we will never know what it was
...........................................
       Is it possible that she spotted something in her current location and situation which struck her in a very negative way? Did she notice something which struck her as  bad, but she hesites to put it down in writing ?......................


Who could she have met in Vizhay?

Dubinina had written in her diary :
"...for about two more days..."

Two days later the hikers are at North-2. Maybe Dubinina was planning to find something or someone at North-2 that would have stopped her discomfort or anxiety ?

And why Lyuda's pre-and postmortem injuries were more horrific than the injuries of all other group members ?

I suspect that there is a psychological clue here that is very important and could lead to complete changes in the DPI explanations.
I am searching, I am searching but I have yet not found...


      3) •••     You are right to be too verbose, I am too, because the main thing is to be well understood by everyone (if possible).
I am not a native speaker of English, and I rely a lot on machine translation.
Jean Daniel Reuss

Rational guidance =

• There is nothing supernatural and mysterious about the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group. They are all consistent with an attack by a group of professional killers who wanted to take the lives of the nine  [Per Inge Oestmoen].

• Now let us search for answers to: WHO ? WHY ? HOW ?

• The scenario must be consistent with the historical, political and psychological  contexts.

• The solution takes in consideration all known findings.

November 23, 2020, 05:33:35 PM
Reply #2
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
The diaries of "Team Dyatlov" refer several times to the tasks that had to be done to keep their expedition going, e.g. preparing food, waxing skis, making camp, and packing up in the morning.  Certainly, there seems to have been some contention over the task of reinforcing the stitching of the tent, which seemed to need doing on a near-daily basis.  Anyhow, my guess is that some work was considered an "all-hands" sort of job, whereas other responsibilities were rotated among group members.  But, is there anything known from reliable sources about how Dyatlov & co. apportioned these necessary chores?

I'm especially curious about how nighttime watch duty worked.  I think I have a pretty good idea, but I have no clue how correct I am.  So, please tell me right or wrong I might be here...  Each night, the two hikers on watch duty dress more warmly than the rest.  One watchperson is on duty for the first half of the night, during which time the other watchperson sleeps.  The one on duty sits awake next to the tent entrance, whereas the other sleeps at the rear of the tent (that is, in the draftiest and second-draftiest positions in the tent, respectively, although the rear is also close to the stove).  Halfway through the night, the first-shift watchperson wakes their second-shift counterpart, and the two switch places.  For the second half of the night, the second-shift watchperson sits awake by the entrance to the tent, while the first-shift watchperson sleeps.

Also, apparently whoever is on watch duty wears a second wristwatch during their shift, to ensure they don't lose track of time??  Is that a documented fact, or is it merely an attempt to explain why Thibeaux-Brignolle had two watches on his wrist?

(Sorry if my post seems overly verbose--I just wanted to make sure it's clear.  This is my first post on this board, but I've been lurking here long enough to know that a lot of users here aren't native speakers of English, and that this community seems to rely a lot on machine translation.)

Unfortunately we dont have a lot of information regarding SET DUTIES. And of course Routines or Duties can change depending on the circumstances.
DB

November 23, 2020, 05:53:03 PM
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RidgeWatcher


We must also take into account that Lyuda was the most staunch and committed Communist in the group. She was also the most vocal of the group.

I am wondering if she was actually threatened in Vizhay, verbally with violence or even death and enough so that she felt if she had informed the Dyatlov group in Vizhay there would be serious ramifications either to her group or the locals, or even both. Lyuda deferred her anger and rage for what she thought would be two days.

Two days would get the Dyatlov hikers to 2nd Northern which would be far enough away for safety (a miscalculation). Maybe by that time Dyatlov and Semyon were starting to disagree with each other and Lyuda just kept the threats to herself, but the threats festered in her mind and she started to isolate herself, from the group and her usual self, changing her personality, temporarily.

They were attacked and killed on Dyatlov Pass, so wouldn't that support serious threats being made to Lyuda in Vizhay? Perhaps if one of the men in the Dyatlov group had said something in Vizhay the attack would have happened there but they were unaware of any such issues or maybe they didn't want to see them and just wanted to get on with the tour. Maybe the attackers felt more comfortable in Vizhay telling Lyuda how they felt because she was a woman. What makes some sense then is the Vizhay attackers would have to know that the Dyatlov group would have to come back through Vizhay on their way back, so then they would need to attack farther north than any settlement.

November 24, 2020, 11:07:53 AM
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RMK


Jean Daniel Reuss, thank you for your reply.  I have read "Lyudmila Dubinina's premonition of her tragic death" and the thread about it.  I am not sure what to make of Dubinina's irritability and neglect of her duties, except that it must be out-of-character for her, because otherwise, she never would have been invited on the Dyatlov expedition, which is a Category III trek.

Unfortunately we dont have a lot of information regarding SET DUTIES.
Yeah, I was afraid of that.  And compounding the lack of information is the fact that the duties would have been somewhat idiosyncratic to the Dyatlov party.  After all, they were using two tents stitched together, and using a custom stove that Dyatlov himself designed and built.

We must also take into account that Lyuda was the most staunch and committed Communist in the group.
Do you have a source for that piece of information?  I have seen that statement asserted as fact elsewhere on this board, but I have not yet seen anything in the primary-source documents that says Dubinina was particularly fervent in Communist ideology.

November 25, 2020, 04:07:50 AM
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Naufragia


From the notes of the journalist Grigoriev:

"In the tent usually the two sleeping at the two ends do not undress [because it is cold]. And the middle und rest undress. There are no attendants at night. If someone has to be on duty, then the next day he will be tired and everyone will have to fall behind."

Grigoriev seems to be recording the account of Yuri Yarovoy, a journalist present at the searcher, at this point in his notes - see https://dyatlovpass.com/grigoriev-2.

I also have not found anything in the primary source documents on the main site attesting to the strength of Dubinina's commitment to Communism, just references on this forum and elsewhere on the web to secondary sources which appear to be quoting people who knew her.

November 25, 2020, 08:16:55 AM
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RMK


From the notes of the journalist Grigoriev:

"In the tent usually the two sleeping at the two ends do not undress [because it is cold]. And the middle und rest undress. There are no attendants at night. If someone has to be on duty, then the next day he will be tired and everyone will have to fall behind."

Grigoriev seems to be recording the account of Yuri Yarovoy, a journalist present at the searcher, at this point in his notes - see https://dyatlovpass.com/grigoriev-2.
Yes, thanks.  I've read Grigoriev's notebooks.  The passage you quoted was part of my motivation for posting this thread, to ask for clarification.  I was unsure if something was lost in translation there, or if Grigoriev was mistaken.  See, elsewhere on this forum, Nigel Evans has posted some decent reasons why the Dyatlov party would want to have someone awake at all times overnight (and since this is Nigel, of course one of the reasons involves a toxic gas):
Okay, but that confuses me even more. If keeping watch means lying awake in the tent, what's this person looking out for? What possible dangers is (s)he supposed to monitor from inside the tent? Why does (s)he needs a watch? No, why does the night watcher need two watches when there are four, five, six people wearing a watch in that same tent with him/her? huh1
What's the story behind this explanation?
  • Ensuring the tent doesn't get buried in snow is a good one (CO2 asphyxiation).
  • Ensure the tent remains secure in the wind, have to stay dressed in case you have to go outside to make adjustments.
  • If the stove was in use, CO poisoning would be a concern.
  • Someone's got to wake the group at the correct time or they could lose a day from the plan.
  • If someone goes to the toilet during the night someone has to be alert to them not returning promptly or they'd die.
I would add to that list of reasons the simple necessity of keeping the fire in the stove going, and making sure that nothing outside the stove burns.  So, I'll grant that there is less need for a watchperson on nights when the stove is not in use.


I also have not found anything in the primary source documents on the main site attesting to the strength of Dubinina's commitment to Communism, just references on this forum and elsewhere on the web to secondary sources which appear to be quoting people who knew her.
Quotes from people who knew her are good enough to establish personal characteristics like political views.  Can you direct me to any secondary sources with such quotes?  I've read the interview with her brother on the main site (dyatlovpass.com, of course), and he doesn't say anything about her being a Communist hard-liner.

November 26, 2020, 12:54:21 PM
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sarapuk

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On the question of Watch Duties.  If you have ever camped out in the wilds have you ever thought about having a Night Watch Keeper.  I havnt.  I would only do that if I was in an area with dangerous wild animals or maybe an area where there were Bandits or such like people. But the Dyatlov Group didnt carry any weapons, so they were not expecting dangerous wild animals. And also they would not have been expecting Bandits or such like people. So why did they have Night Watch Keepers.
DB

November 26, 2020, 02:30:23 PM
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RMK


On the question of Watch Duties.  If you have ever camped out in the wilds have you ever thought about having a Night Watch Keeper.  I havnt.
Nor have I.  It's the sort of thing I associate with soldiers in the field, who post sentries to guard their camp overnight.  That's why I was surprised to read about Dyatlov team members "on duty" each night, and I've not been able to discern from what I've read so far what exactly the nature of that duty is.  Perhapts it's merely that two people each night dress more warmly than the others, sleep at the ends of the tent, and are responsible for going outside in case there's a problem with the tent.  That much I could understand.  But expecting someone to be awake at all times during the night?  That's asking quite a lot from a team of recreational ski-hikers on holiday!

So why did they have Night Watch Keepers.
Well, on the other hand, Nigel gives several credible reasons for posting watchkeepers in that quote upthread.  And as I said, maintaining the stove alone could be a good enough reason to post watch.  You don't go to sleep before quenching your campfire, right?  Well, what if your "campfire" is actually inside your tent, contained in a wood-burning stove, and you need (or at least really want) the fire to keep warm overnight?  What I have in mind here is how I've read Finland's army does wintertime infantry operations in the field.  Finnish soldiers sleep in 7-man tents that are heated with a wood-burning stove.  During the day, each man in a 7-man squad carries his share of the components of the tent and stove, and of the supply of firewood.  Each night, the 7 men rotate fire-watch duty, which duty includes keeping the fire lit.

But, then again, I'm now talking about soldiers who spend 1/7 of the night on watch, and not tourists who spend half the night on watch (albeit not every night).  Different things.

November 27, 2020, 09:34:20 AM
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Manti


Hi, I'm new here.

I assume that you are wondering about watch duties to explain why some were better dressed than the others.

However, to me it seems like the group must have left the tent before settling in for the night:
  • I have read somewhere that the stove was not assembled. I cannot imagine they would want to go to sleep without heating that night. So this means it wasn't assembled yet
  • I have also read that crumbles were found in the tent, so they could have been eating their dinner when something interrupted them. Also an onion was found in Zolotaryonv's trouser pocket. I think that points to being interrupted while cutting or eating onion and putting it in your pocket, otherwise you wouldn't carry it around there unless it's some sort of superstitious thing

So I think the ones better dressed may not have undressed yet, or went out to for eg. relieve themselves (although even to do that, I would put on at least boots).
« Last Edit: November 27, 2020, 12:24:12 PM by Manti »

November 27, 2020, 11:59:33 AM
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sarapuk

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On the alleged night of the Incident the Stove was not set up for use, so that rules out a reason for having one or two night Watch Keepers.
DB

November 28, 2020, 10:35:34 AM
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RMK


I assume that you are wondering about watch duties to explain why some were better dressed than the others.
That's part of it.  More broadly, I'm trying to understand the Dyatlov party's "standard operating procedure" under normal circumstances to better understand what may have happened during the Incident.

However, to me it seems like the group must have left the tent before settling in for the night:
  • I have read somewhere that the stove was not assembled. I cannot imagine they would want to go to sleep without heating that night. So this means it wasn't assembled yet
  • I have also read that crumbles were found in the tent, so they could have been eating their dinner when something interrupted them. Also an onion was found in Zolotaryonv's trouser pocket. I think that points to being interrupted while cutting or eating onion and putting it in your pocket, otherwise you wouldn't carry it around there unless it's some sort of superstitious thing
I agree that they were probably interrupted while preparing or eating their dinner (although, if they were victims of foul play, then their assailants could have "staged" the state of the tent once the hikers were done for).  However, I do not think they were going to use their stove that night.  As I understand, they had to pitch their tent in the "low profile" configuration, because they were exposed to the wind, and the stove cannot be deployed in that configuration.  See, they can only pitch the tent in the "high profile" configuration when they're surrounded by trees that block the wind, which was the case on all nights in the tent prior to the evening of February 1st.

On the alleged night of the Incident the Stove was not set up for use, so that rules out a reason for having one or two night Watch Keepers.
Yes, I agree.

November 29, 2020, 03:14:32 AM
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Manti


It's hard to imagine they wanted to sleep without a source of heat.

The temperature would be at best a few degrees above what it was outside, even under blankets. And apparently they didn't use sleeping bags?

Sunrise would be around 9am, I don't think they wanted to spend 15 hours in -15C or lower (in fact much lower at night, but they might not have been aware of that).
The body produces much less heat while stationary/asleep.

Anyway, the temperature within the tent was comparable to a freezer. It amounts to suicide going to sleep there, no? twitch7

November 29, 2020, 03:17:03 PM
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WAB


From the notes of the journalist Grigoriev:

"In the tent usually the two sleeping at the two ends do not undress [because it is cold]. And the middle und rest undress. There are no attendants at night. If someone has to be on duty, then the next day he will be tired and everyone will have to fall behind."

Grigoriev seems to be recording the account of Yuri Yarovoy, a journalist present at the searcher, at this point in his notes - see https://dyatlovpass.com/grigoriev-2.

Most likely, this is not Yuri Yarovoy's story, it was told by those who participated in the search when he lived in the tent. At that time, Yarovyi had very little experience of such actions and assessments. Because he did not have enough practice.
What is written by Grigoriev should be understood in this way:
- this fragment concerns only overnight stays in forestless zone. In the forest the practice of duty officers is quite different.
- These two (rather someone alone, for two there is no full work) have to do what needs to be done outside the tent, so that the rest could rest normally. I don't write "sleep" because at that time in such conditions, it was rather passive waiting for the night with rare opportunities to take nap. It is difficult, but sometimes it was done on purpose to get the benefit of traveling along the route.
- Grigoriev couldn't evaluate it the way he should because he didn't have such practice either. He is typical city resident, but it is necessary to assess the travelers who make extreme routes.

I also have not found anything in the primary source documents on the main site attesting to the strength of Dubinina's commitment to Communism, just references on this forum and elsewhere on the web to secondary sources which appear to be quoting people who knew her.

You will not be able find it. Because it is bad myth, created either because people do not understand it at all, or for the purpose of political propaganda. It is necessary know and understand well everything that was related to the youth of that time, so that you can say something truthful.
In the largest number of student youth then in events such as travel, at least something used from politics. They could make jokes about something on this subject (as in their handwritten sheet) or write something about the party's congress on paper in order to let their comrades out of work at the right time. But that was the end of it. They had many other natural hobbies to pursue politics. All this I say because I saw everything in the real life of that time, not because I read somewhere in unreliable source.

November 30, 2020, 02:42:05 PM
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sarapuk

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It's hard to imagine they wanted to sleep without a source of heat.

The temperature would be at best a few degrees above what it was outside, even under blankets. And apparently they didn't use sleeping bags?

Sunrise would be around 9am, I don't think they wanted to spend 15 hours in -15C or lower (in fact much lower at night, but they might not have been aware of that).
The body produces much less heat while stationary/asleep.

Anyway, the temperature within the tent was comparable to a freezer. It amounts to suicide going to sleep there, no? twitch7

Well bodies huddled together do generate warmth. We only have to look at the early expeditions to The North and South Poles.
DB