The Newspaper

[DAXXY]

If you are lost in the snow and your clothes are wet, should you take your clothes off?

It depends. If the temperatures are above freezing, (32ºF/0ºC), then taking your clothes off when they are wet MIGHT be a good or okay idea/strategy for avoiding hypothermia.

This would only be helpful if you could build a fire and then take your clothes off, and dry them out by a fire or something. Then you could put them back on and stay warm.
If, on the other hand, the temperatures were WAY BELOW freezing, then you would want to keep them on, but with one distinct change: You will want to get that wet clothing away from your skin, so you will need to stuff the inside of your clothes with crumpled paper, with dried grasses, with dead leaves, or cattail down, or even bubble wrap, to give you some insulation. It will allow your body heat to start to dry out the wet clothes, and still give you protection from the wind, the cold, the snow, or the surrounding wilderness environment.

Other Factors: What kind of clothes are you wearing that is wet? If you’re wearing jeans, a cotton sweatshirt and cotton t-shirt, then yes, that’s a huge, huge problem.

If you’re wearing polar fleece or wool pants or sweaters or long underwear, or other ‘wicking’ synthetic clothing, you can keep wearing them, because those clothes will keep you warm, even when wet. However, I would take them off, wring them out, squeeze out as much water as I can, and then put it back on as quick as you can so they don’t get too cold and chill you out! That’s a ‘fresh’ feeling, putting wet clothes back on, in the winter!
https://www.quora.com/profile/Ricardo-Sierra-6

Semyon Zolotaryov Had a rolled up newspaper in his back trouser pocket.
https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-349-351?rbid=17743

Does this tell us that by the time Semyon is in the shelter he is still not in a desperate soaking wet hypothermic state because the newspaper is still in his pocket. Also he hasn't offered it to any other casualty so maybe some in this group only need cloth wrappings to protect their feet and hands from snow contact.  They aren't yet needing to pack their clothes with newspaper.  Then their shelter collapsed.

[Star man]

Interesting observation about the newspaper.  Its not generally the sort of thing you would carry around in your back pocket after several days of hiking in the wilderness.  I would be interested in the date on the paper. 

Regards

Star man

[DAXXY]

Interesting that it's in his back pocket. He isn't laying on it and nobody is using it to sit on or pack their wet clothing. Hard to do tunneling with a paper sticking up out of your back pocket.  So does this tell us that the den is dug and finished and they are inside and relatively comfortable before it suddenly collapses ?

[RidgeWatcher]

Why didn’t he offer the newspaper to help start the fire back at the cedar? And why the heck was that in his back pocket when they all left the tent? No shoes, no jackets, but a newspaper? Did he use it for toilet paper? Only asking that because he was better dressed and he may have been on guard that night or outside the tent talking to a man about a horse.

[Star man]

He may have been using it for the toilet, or for fire lighting, but again the case files don't say enough about the condition of tge news paper.  It is odd.  I d9nt think it tells us much about the den.  Its unlikely they could have constructed much of a den.  Also the bodies were found lying together more or less, e cent Lyuda.  But tge bodies were several metres from the makeshift tree branch floor.  So why would they lie down together with Kolevatoc embracing Semyon, several metres from the branches?

Regards

Star man

[DAXXY]

This is what I'm thinking at the moment..
Search Scenario

 In the tent in the evening with weather worsening 2 have left to go to the woods & stream location to either get water for drinking or cleaning teeth etc. or maybe for toilet needs, or possibly for some fire wood for the stove.  They are not intending to be gone long so don't put full clothing on.  They can't find their way back to the tent in the blizzard and fog and they start to quickly succumb to the cold. They follow their own tracks back to the shelter of the trees.  They stay together and light a fire (maybe using the wood they were already carrying) and one climbs the tree to try and see a light from the tent to see where it is.  He breaks off branches to line the inside of a snow den. He doesn't want to leave his friend in case he can't find his way back to him and the fire dies. They are both succumbing to extreme cold.   They will die without action so one of them puts wood on the fire and leaves his friend by a fire and looks for the best place to quickly dig a shelter and line it with the vegetation hoping to drag his friend inside.  This is why the den (den 1) is so small, its only for 2 men.  When he's put the vegetation inside the den he returns and he and his friend remove their freezing wet outer clothes (to help stop cooling)  to put under themselves in the den to help the clothing start to dry.  He may have considered trying to improvise a cushion out of trousers filled with vegetation, or it was an attempt to dry the trousers quicker, but there wasn't time.

'A pair of brown trousers tied at the ankles but flared open with a tear to widen them'
https://dyatlovpass.com/gallery-the-den
.
While he is away from the fire digging a shelter the fire burns his friends leg.
This was Yuri Doroshenko he was 180 cm tall, and the most sturdy and tallest member of the group.  He has to work fast, trying to save the life of his unconscious friend Yuri Krivonischenko, he may also be sweating.  In the freezing conditions this efforts are exhausting for him and he returns to try and drag his friend to the den.  He may have dragged his friend to the den but it collapses and he decides to drag him back to where the fire is.  By now too much time has passed and he too succumbs to the freezing cold and wet conditions.

By now the others have come out of the tent and keep searching for their friends, They slowly come down the slope shouting in the wind.  Eventually they find their tracks and follow them to find their friends bodies at the cedar tree.  They try to revive them but can't.  Eventually the 2 leaders confirm the 2 yuris are dead, but now even more time has passed, and they are all freezing and wet too. They have walked down in to a huge pool of feeezing cold air.  Now the cold is killing them too. They start collapsing, some stay with their collapsed friends and scavenge clothing from the bodies of their 2 dead friends to help protect hands and feet from the snow.  (Semyon Zolotaryov has a rolled up newspaper on him to pack clothing if it becomes wet but hasn't used it or offered it to any other casualty at this stage.  It is found still rolled up on his body).

Like Yuri Doroshenko it appears to be a golden rule and standard procedure for everyone when this happens that you don't waste any time, you dig a snow shelter to stay alive, or to get your casualty to a safe place where they can recover. They haven't time now to collect firewood and climb back up to the tent on the exposed pass with casualties and prepare the stove etc...The means to their survival is all around them.  Nobody in this group knew of Yuris first little shelter (den 1), or it may have collapsed.  So they decide to dig a large shelter for 7 in a large bank of snow.  (den 2, in the ravine) They manage to dig a large den out but it collapsed while five are inside crushing and badly injuring them.  2 people are outside. (Zinaida Kolmogorova and Igor Dyatlov) They attempt to dig to get their 5 friends out but they are exhausted and freezing, the snow and ice is 4-5 meters deep and they have no tools. and now they are freezing and still without shelter.  They only manage to dig out Rustem Slobodin who is badly injured with a skull fracture. They decide they must save themselves and try to reach the only shelter left which is the tent.  Or they will die too. They find their way out from the woods and ravine, with igor and Zinaida having to support or carry the injured Rustem exhausting them further.  They can't see the tent.  They know they have to follow rising ground through the blizzard up to the pass.  Unfortunately they are so exhausted and frozen from the the cold that they collapse on the slope climbing up to the tent.

[DAXXY]

Also this..
The second group didn't reach the 2 yuris until they were beyond help and to light a fire for hypothermia victim kills them...blood retreats to the inner organs but heat too close draws it back out to the skin and they die. The instructors finding the two yuris knew this.  So they knew that the answer to saving themselves was not a big fire like the 2 yuris tried but a snow den.
Also..
Note: American Army Manual 'snowcaves' 1986
The entrance should be built so that it is about 45 degrees
from the downwind side. A small tunnel is burrowed directly into the side of the
snowdrift for 1 meter. A chamber is excavated from this tunnel. Excavation is done to the
right and left, so that the length of the chamber is at right angles to the tunnel entrance.
Personnel doing the digging will become wet from perspiration and from the snow inside
the cave. They should wear the minimum amount of clothing to ensure that they have a
change of dry clothing when finished.

'You are likely to become drenched with snow and sweat.  Do your best to stay dry.  To wet out the least amount of insulation, work in you base layers and gortex layers.  Stay out of the wind'.
http://www.traditionalmountaineering.org/FAQ_Snowcaves.htm
Either one or both yuris tried to dig and put their outer clothes in the den to keep them dry because the digging causes sweat and wetness which is fatal in cold.
But the den collapses before they can use it...Or for some reason they don't reach it...

[sarapuk]

If you are lost in the snow and your clothes are wet, should you take your clothes off?

It depends. If the temperatures are above freezing, (32ºF/0ºC), then taking your clothes off when they are wet MIGHT be a good or okay idea/strategy for avoiding hypothermia.

This would only be helpful if you could build a fire and then take your clothes off, and dry them out by a fire or something. Then you could put them back on and stay warm.
If, on the other hand, the temperatures were WAY BELOW freezing, then you would want to keep them on, but with one distinct change: You will want to get that wet clothing away from your skin, so you will need to stuff the inside of your clothes with crumpled paper, with dried grasses, with dead leaves, or cattail down, or even bubble wrap, to give you some insulation. It will allow your body heat to start to dry out the wet clothes, and still give you protection from the wind, the cold, the snow, or the surrounding wilderness environment.

Other Factors: What kind of clothes are you wearing that is wet? If you’re wearing jeans, a cotton sweatshirt and cotton t-shirt, then yes, that’s a huge, huge problem.

If you’re wearing polar fleece or wool pants or sweaters or long underwear, or other ‘wicking’ synthetic clothing, you can keep wearing them, because those clothes will keep you warm, even when wet. However, I would take them off, wring them out, squeeze out as much water as I can, and then put it back on as quick as you can so they don’t get too cold and chill you out! That’s a ‘fresh’ feeling, putting wet clothes back on, in the winter!
https://www.quora.com/profile/Ricardo-Sierra-6

Semyon Zolotaryov Had a rolled up newspaper in his back trouser pocket.
https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-349-351?rbid=17743

Does this tell us that by the time Semyon is in the shelter he is still not in a desperate hypothermic state because the newspaper is still in his pocket. Also he hasn't offered it to any other casualty so maybe some in this group only need cloth wrappings to protect their feet and hands from snow contact.  They aren't yet needing to pack their clothes with newspaper.  Then their shelter collapsed.

The pockets of the trousers include pieces of newspaper.  Not rolled up newspaper.

[DAXXY]

'There is a rolled-up newspaper in the posterior pocket of the rompers'
 in the external examination paragraph. 
https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-349-351?rbid=17743

[Star man]

DAXXY, not sure how long you have been looking into this mystery?  The scenario you outline is very unlikely.  These hikers were experienced and knew what they were doing.  They would not venture over 1km in the freezing night and dark with no shoes to get water or fire wood.  Keep digging and thinking.

Regards

Star man

[DAXXY]

I'm not saying they did.  I think the 2 yuris went for firewood ..for the stove at night in the tent. But they didn't return.  The others were worried but knew where they had gone and why.  So they searched and eventually found the 2 yuris either dead or very close to death. But they didn't know that one of the yuris had tried to build a den (den 1) which is why it's so small.  Just for the 2 yuris.  Now they have all stayed too long in the cold and are a long way from their tent...So they decide to dig a den for 7 to get through the night..(den 2)  maybe Dyatlov digs it with one other helping.  He removes his outer clothes because den digging makes you wet and sweaty which speeds up hypothermia.  Then he is getting dressed while 5 others get in the den.  The den collapses with loads of snow and ice burying the 5 inside.    Zinaida Kolmogorova and Igor Dyatlov (who are outside the den ) attempt to dig to get their 5 friends out but they are exhausted and freezing, the snow and ice is 4-5 meters deep and they have no tools. and now they are freezing and still without shelter.  They only manage to dig out Rustem Slobodin who is badly injured with a skull fracture. They decide they must save themselves and try to reach the only shelter left which is the tent.  Or they will die too. They find their way out from the woods and ravine, with igor and Zinaida having to support or carry the injured Rustem exhausting them further.  They can't see the tent.  They know they have to follow rising ground through the blizzard up to the pass.  Unfortunately they are so exhausted and frozen from the the cold that they collapse on the slope climbing up to the tent.

[DAXXY]

You're assuming they were under dressed.  Maybe ski boots were not for walking in ..just for skiing.  they were in normal clothes for being around camp.  if you didn't have the camp boots the valenki..you just wore a couple of pairs of wool socks. This is a bunch of college kids in their 20's worried about 2 of their close friends out in a remote place.  They were compelled to search for them and stay out searching further from the tent than was sensible.  possibly they found the tracks of the 2 yuris.  Lets say 30 mins and the 2 yuris are not back.  40 mins and people in the tent a worried.  50 mins and they are out starting searching.. they know they went for wood and approx where, So they all go in that direction and no other.  So maybe 40 mins searching until they find them. Then 40 mins trying to help them both ?..before the 2 leaders say enough !.  So about 2 hours have now elapsed and the group are shocked at the death of their 2 close friends, and frozen.  The 2 leaders decide to build a shelter, Dyatlov knows how so he does it while Semyon Zolotaryov is looking after the group.

[DAXXY]

Why did they leave barefoot? - I ask the last question that concerns me.
I can explain. Down there is a steep slope, which is crazy to descend in total darkness in slippery ski boots.
https://dyatlovpass.com/they-died-with-dignity

[mk]

This is a bunch of college kids in their 20's worried about 2 of their close friends out in a remote place...

I like that you're exploring ideas outside the box: looking at non-catastrophic reasons they may have left the tent. Like you, I believe there are still clues to be gleaned from items found at the site.  I'm enjoying reading your theories, although I don't yet agree with them.

In this case, it seems your theory requires that they behave as a group of intelligent kids who are in way over their heads and make fatal errors of judgment.  And, to the extent that all of us are fallible, it is always possible that mistaken judgments played some role in this tragedy.

But I really feel that you have mischaracterized them.  The information we have seems to point to their being very well prepared for this trek both physically and mentally.  A mistake like pitching your tent too far from a source of firewood is a beginner's error.  When you are an accomplished outdoorsman, and your life and the lives of your friends are on the line, and every breath of cold air that knifes into your lungs is a reminder that all of you are susceptible to the elements, you don't forget the firewood.  I tend to agree with you that they may not have been so horribly underdressed as it first seems, but even the stupidest college kid puts on his shoes before going out into the snow to look for a lost buddy.  And valenki are slip-on boots: it would take 30 seconds max to grab them and shove your feet into them.

Kolevatov had valenki that he wasn't wearing.  He was wearing one light sock and one wool sock on one foot, and three socks on the other foot.  Krivonischenko had a pair of felt boots that neither he nor anyone else was wearing. It beggars belief that they looked at the trees nearly a mile from the tent and said, "Snowy evening?  Getting colder?  Sure--I'll walk a mile there and back in the snow and gather firewood without shoes.  No problem!"

Or, if they did, they were made of much sterner stuff than we have imagined.

In 1913, Horace Kephart wrote about the people of the Appalachian mountains:
In winter, one sometimes may see adults and children going barefoot in snow that is ankle deep.  It used to be customary in our settlement to do the morning chores barefooted in the snow, "Then," said one, "our feet'd tingle and burn, so't they wouldn't get a bit cold all day when we put on our shoes."... In bear hunting, our parties usually camped at about 5000 feet above sea level.  At this elevation, in the long nights before Christmas, the cold often was bitter and the wind might blow a gale.  Sometimes the hunters would lie out in the open all night without a sign of a blanket or an axe...

Now, if this is the sort of thing our Dyatlov hikers were accustomed to doing--living outside without what we would consider proper clothing--then it is an even more profound mystery that this tragedy should have occurred without some catastrophic event.

[DAXXY]

I'm not saying it was definitely about fire wood for the stove.  This is all supposition based on random evidence from an incident decades ago in a remote area.  The fire wood in the food store was for when they returned and could light a fire on the ground and cook food.  The tent stove would have needed small fire wood and if nobody actually collected any before they climbed the pass then that is exactly how an incident pit could start.  One small action leads to a decision which leads to an action and another decision etc...I'm not saying fire wood is the specific issue.  I'm saying the 2 yuris become separated from the others for some reason.  For all we know one of them may have had an epileptic seizure or a burst appendix while in the wood..Maybe they were not in the wood but along the pass and one carried the other in to the trees for shelter then climbed the tree to try and wave clothing to be seen from the tent to get help.
One has a decision here.  Make for the tent to get help, or stay with his friend.  He stays, lights a fire, probably still trying to attract attention from the tent. Time goes on, They're getting colder, another choice, make for the tent and get help and risk the fire going out or dig a shelter.  He digs a shelter. He may have been thinking to put just his friend in the shelter then make for the tent to get help etc..Who knows ? But they don't make it in to the shelter, It probably collapsed.  Now they are both back where they started, the one that dug the shelter is now wet from snow and sweat and freezing...etc..

Even experienced people make mistakes and make decisions that lead them a little further down in to an incident pit and a worse case scenario.  An Incident pit isn't about judging and criticizing it's about analyzing what happened.  Seemingly small decisions prompt seemingly harmless and even sensible action at the time.
What kept the 2 yuris at the cedar tree ?  It could be the fact that one couldn't carry the other, and wouldn't leave him, so he was effectively unable to just abort and run for shelter and summon help from the tent. It would be a dilemma. 

Also I don't know what their training manual said was the right thing to do.

I think all we can do now given the quality of the evidence and time that has passed is try to construct plausible supposition.  These plausible theories need to include as much of the real evidence as possible, and if possible even explain some of the evidence in a plausible way.  Like the rolled up newspaper that Semyon Zolotaryov had in his back pocket tells me that he wasn't wet from sweat or snow so that he needed to pack his clothes with the paper to create an air space and neither was anybody else.  It also wasn't needed to sit on. So everyone in this group were basically extremely cold but dry enough not to use the newspaper.  Dyatlov may have dug the second shelter and removed his outer clothes to do it, then wrung out his base layers, and cooled down and dressed again.

Note: American Army Manual 'snowcaves' 1986
Personnel doing the digging will become wet from perspiration and from the snow inside
the cave. They should wear the minimum amount of clothing to ensure that they have a
change of dry clothing when finished.

'You are likely to become drenched with snow and sweat.  Do your best to stay dry.  To wet out the least amount of insulation, work in you base layers and gortex layers.  Stay out of the wind'.
http://www.traditionalmountaineering.org/FAQ_Snowcaves.htm

[sarapuk]

'There is a rolled-up newspaper in the posterior pocket of the rompers'
 in the external examination paragraph. 
https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-349-351?rbid=17743

Presumably useful for reading or and using as toilet paper.

[sarapuk]

I'm not saying they did.  I think the 2 yuris went for firewood ..for the stove at night in the tent. But they didn't return.  The others were worried but knew where they had gone and why.  So they searched and eventually found the 2 yuris either dead or very close to death. But they didn't know that one of the yuris had tried to build a den (den 1) which is why it's so small.  Just for the 2 yuris.  Now they have all stayed too long in the cold and are a long way from their tent...So they decide to dig a den for 7 to get through the night..(den 2)  maybe Dyatlov digs it with one other helping.  He removes his outer clothes because den digging makes you wet and sweaty which speeds up hypothermia.  Then he is getting dressed while 5 others get in the den.  The den collapses with loads of snow and ice burying the 5 inside.    Zinaida Kolmogorova and Igor Dyatlov (who are outside the den ) attempt to dig to get their 5 friends out but they are exhausted and freezing, the snow and ice is 4-5 meters deep and they have no tools. and now they are freezing and still without shelter.  They only manage to dig out Rustem Slobodin who is badly injured with a skull fracture. They decide they must save themselves and try to reach the only shelter left which is the tent.  Or they will die too. They find their way out from the woods and ravine, with igor and Zinaida having to support or carry the injured Rustem exhausting them further.  They can't see the tent.  They know they have to follow rising ground through the blizzard up to the pass.  Unfortunately they are so exhausted and frozen from the the cold that they collapse on the slope climbing up to the tent.

But that still means that you are saying that they walked a mile or so not properly dressed for those extreme weather conditions. No one would do that. Surely its certain death.

[sarapuk]

Why did they leave barefoot? - I ask the last question that concerns me.
I can explain. Down there is a steep slope, which is crazy to descend in total darkness in slippery ski boots.
https://dyatlovpass.com/they-died-with-dignity

If it was crazy to descend in total darkness in slippery ski boots then surely it would have been madness to do it in barefeet. Frostbite comes to mind. And after a mile or so in those extreme conditions Frostbite is almost certain.

[DAXXY]

It wasn't their initial intention.  They had socks on.  The ski boots were smooth soled and stiff, no good for walking.  Wool socks keep their insulation qualities even when wet. 

 I think they left the tent, then lowered it because of the wind, by just slackening off some guy ropes.  They were expecting to find their friends quite quickly, but that didn't happen...they set up the flashlights in the snow as they searched further down the hill.  Once they got to a certain point it was not practical to go back to a collapsed tent in the dark and wind and try and get coats and boots.  So they kept searching further out..until they found the Yuris at the cedar.

With the flashlights they deliberately left the one at the tent off to conserve battery they probably went to their limit of visibility and set another. (The limit of visibility for someone returning) taking high and low ground in to account.  (Second flashlight was found switched on and depleted battery 450m down the slope).
 The idea of the one at the tent was for the first person arriving back to shine it as a light for the others returning.  Guiding them in on the last leg.  They all knew they had to climb up to the pass to get back to the tent but the flashlight would give them the direction too. They are staying connected to the tent with the flashlights not abandoning it.  The flashlights are like a rope from a lifeboat.

I would bet that this sort of stuff was in their leadership training of the day.  They didn't have flares so used flashlights.

[RMK]

Why didn’t he offer the newspaper to help start the fire back at the cedar? And why the heck was that in his back pocket when they all left the tent? No shoes, no jackets, but a newspaper? Did he use it for toilet paper? Only asking that because he was better dressed and he may have been on guard that night or outside the tent talking to a man about a horse.

"Talking to a man about a horse?"  Is that a figure of speech with which I'm not familiar?  Or do you mean that phrase literally...?

[sarapuk]

Why didn’t he offer the newspaper to help start the fire back at the cedar? And why the heck was that in his back pocket when they all left the tent? No shoes, no jackets, but a newspaper? Did he use it for toilet paper? Only asking that because he was better dressed and he may have been on guard that night or outside the tent talking to a man about a horse.

"Talking to a man about a horse?"  Is that a figure of speech with which I'm not familiar?  Or do you mean that phrase literally...?

Used a lot once in England like going to see a man about a dog. Usually used when someone wants to go to the toilet rather quickly.

[DAXXY]

I wonder if it comes from betting.  Like seeing a man to get some inside knowledge on a horse or dog in a race ?

[DAXXY]

Origin of see-a-man-about-a-horse

The saying comes from the 1866 Dion Boucicault play, Flying Scud, in which a character knowingly breezes past a difficult situation saying, "Excuse me Mr. Quail, I can't stop; I've got to see a man about a dog."

[RMK]

Thank you both, DAXXY and sarapuk.  I learned something today.

[RidgeWatcher]

Hello, Thanks you for clarifying my post. I was trying to be polite and used what I have heard my entire life but never personally. I could have said "he went to urinate" or "he went to go piss in the wind" but I thought the Horse saying was more polite.

RMK, you really haven't heard that before? That saying is used a lot in the US, especially on the West coast and Alaska.

[DAXXY]

I suppose as 'Detectives' we should say he 'relieved himself' or he 'urinated'.  It would be more professional if we were presenting evidence or a theory.  But we aren't in a professional setting and we aren't getting paid    so we can be a bit more human, and local sayings and little customs are interesting and often have a historical basis.

Like...'It's cold enough to freeze the balls off a brass monkey'

I have also heard that the thumbs up hand sign comes from being the right width to set a rabbit snare which is why it's seen as a sign for good fortune because it provided food for poor people.    https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=767.0

'Mad as a Hatter'...because hat makers used mercury and it made them mentally ill.

[RMK]

RMK, you really haven't heard that before? That saying is used a lot in the US, especially on the West coast and Alaska.

No, never.  I'm from the East Coast, so that may be why.

[cz]

Interesting observation. The newspaper was not used for anything. In particular it was not used for helping to start the fire under the cedar (or maybe part of it?). At least consistent with Zolotaryov having been absent when that happened. Maybe he was just paralyzed or forgot about it, but he was the most experienced one.

[DAXXY]

I think he carried it to pack under his clothes if he got soaked.  Probably a trick from the army. Wring out the clothes, wear the wool ones with crumpled newspaper underneath to create an insulating air space while the wool dries.  Wool will keep it's insulating qualities even when wet. 

Yes it also shows the 2 Yuris at the cedar were separate from the others. 

[cz]

That would have been reasonable behavior to fight the cold, but it would also have required preplanning, if indeed intended, when others did not even put on their socks. And, as a matter of fact, it did not happen. Maybe he died too early.

Probably Zolotaryov and Tibo were out of the tent when it all started and maybe Z was really thinking about dogs and horses or he just always carried that thing around.

In any case, also looking at what they did not do (although they could have) is interesting.