Evidence

[eurocentric]

I agree that the location of the tent when "discovered " by searchers is complete nonsense. Most people familiar with the details of the case absolutely had to realize that the hikers would have never set up camp on an exposed ridge when the forest was available a mile away. Far too many people fell for that deception.

It was on their plan..before the ascent of Otorten.  Also they had done previous expeditions that involved periods above the treeline https://dyatlovpass.com/gallery-1958-Subpolar-Ural

There's nothing in that schedule which specifies they must ascend, let alone pitch on the mountain. The two ascents are intended to be Otorten and Oyko-Chakur. One day was allowed for navigation of the pass, and the 1959 resolution to close the case stated they were supposed to head between the peak, referred to as '1079', and another, '880', but were some 500-600m off their map route, as indicated by their trail.

https://dyatlovpass.com/case-files-384-387

Igor was blamed for several gross mistakes, including taking his group up the slope of 1079 from 3pm, in the usual winds and temperatures of -25 to -30, and the presumption was this was done to remain at altitude en route to Mt. Otorten.

That resolution made their own mistake. The trench digging photo's are said to be end-of-reel images, from two cameras, and used the last camera settings to calculate when they were taken based on the exposure, but arrived at 5pm (unless that is simply a mistranslation) - when they should have known it was dark half an hour earlier.

Other sources confirm that Level 3 did not require them to go without overnight heating.

The photo's of the previous hike show a tent at higher altitude, above the tree line, in a much wider mountain range which would require an overnight stay to traverse it, and it's pitched on a level, in weather so calm they can even hang gloves on the ropes.

That tent installation is suspended by two loops of rope either side through the centre eyelet (actually three on one side), and an extra rope tensioning the skis, which are set well away from the tent sides, and they are double-anchored with ski poles.

By contrast the tent on the Dyatlov Pass, which should be crossable in 3 hours, has no visible evidence of ridge ropes tied to the skis, even slipped down if the tent collapsed, and one ski is in the wrong position, unless the intention had been to use a pair downslope and shorter ski poles higher up the slope.

It's the norm to position a ridge tent side-on to the crest of the mountain, but the problem here is both the 30 degree slope and an elongated tent needing extra ridge support.

That slope means the downhill ski needs to be right up against the tent side (one is) to have planting depth at one end and retain height at the top, enough to be higher than the tent ridge. If this was on untouched ground it would be fine, but they have disturbed the snow by digging a trench, which will be because ridge tents have no headroom, and for wind chill protection, so that ski may not be held securely enough in the snow. They cannot risk the tent collapsing on them in the night due to the stove above them.

If alternatively, the tent had been turned 90 degrees, the 2 skis would then be at the same level either side. The problem with that installation, when wanting a trench and levelling a long tent, is they would have to dig deeper on the uphill end, and may even meet the ground, which up there is 50% rock strewn.

[tekumze]

Now let’s wait and see what Teddy’s book will reveal. The least I expect is that it won't end with the sentence, "... but we'll probably never know what really happened ..." But that we'll all say together, "Finally. That's it!" Teddy, you've taken on a lot of responsibility. Best of luck.

[sarapuk]

I agree that the location of the tent when "discovered " by searchers is complete nonsense. Most people familiar with the details of the case absolutely had to realize that the hikers would have never set up camp on an exposed ridge when the forest was available a mile away. Far too many people fell for that deception.

Its true that the Dyatlov Group should never have set up the Tent in severe weather conditions on an exposed Mountainside, when they had at least some shelter from the Forest area. Sometimes its neccessary however. For instance expeditions to the great Mountain ranges of the World might find themselves caught out in bad weather and need to set up camp quickly even in far from ideal locations. But the area where the Dyatlov Group were travelling was not a great Mountain range. It may have been remote and it may have been cold but they had the potential to get some cover from the Forest. [ Temperatures on Mt Everest can be between minus 15 and minus 40 degrees centigrade. ] Unless of course something was motivating them to camp where they did. What could that something be  !  ? 

[sarapuk]

Well, the lack of analysis of the foot prints, and the cuts in the tent near the entrance through the seams have been a problem for me for a while now.  This line of thinking makes it clear why. 

Also, why Yuri D would be climbing a tree with severe frost bite on hands and feet.  Why they were burnt - it doesn't make sense if they were either alive or dead.  If they were alive why would they allow their skin to burn like that, and if they died before the fire did, why did they die?  The flashlight on the 10cm of snow at the tent, the tidy nature of the tent - given the impression that they cut their way out in a panic.

Ok.  So if we cant rely on the evidence at the scene.  How do we figure out what really happened to them?  Solter's statement.  The bodies were very dirty, washed, prepared for burial ( with no relatives to formerly identify them and no autopsy) - odd.  11 bodies overall - odd.  Were the bodies, cleaned, possibly decontaminated, and then air lifted back to Kholat Syakhl for placement?  11 bodies?  Did Solter see two of the same bodies twice, at different times?  First in Feb, when they were prepped, and then in March when they were found again?  Lyuda - burned hair and face, Semyon?  Authorities need to make some changes to their appearance and then place them somewhere where they would decompose.  Missing eyes, tongue?  Chest injuries -  they were thrown by a wind blast, or accidentally dropped from a helicopter when being air lifted back? 

The tent - did the hikers actually  cut it?  Was it shredded by debris from something and made to look like it was cut.  Could there have been an incident that threw up a major amount of dirt, mud, or caused a landslide onto the tent?   Possible chemical weapon - chlorine, heavier than air so hugs the ground, will burn eyes and mucous membranes, - no toxicology report.  Might induce them to cut and tear themselves out of the tent.  Chlorine -  oxidising agent, poison, skin colour?  Oxidised skin may make them look dirty.  Yuri D lungs, grey fluid.  Chlorine causes fluid in the lungs, so you kind of drown.  Nitrogen dioxide would fo the same.  The tent - is there a record somewhere about its recovery and cleaning, prepping it to set back up on Kholat?

If you can't make the hikers disappear, you can always make the scene dissappear instead

Lots and lots of questions.  Needs further thought to piecei t together. 

Regards

Star man

Ok.  Lets continue with this line of thought.

To understand what happened to the hikers, we need to filter out the facts that cannot be faked so easily or  covered up.  If they couldn't or didn't want to make the hikers disappear, you make the scene disappear.  So that leaves the hikers - the bodies - the injuries.  Lets split the hikers into two groups.  Those with significant injuries and those with superficial injuries.  Who has the significant injuries?  - The rav 4 - convenient.  If the scene is faked, then Kolevatov, is not hugging Semyon.  Kolevatov - he didn't die last - he died first.  He was thrown by some kind of wind blast.  He landed awkwardly - deformed neck - spinal damage - severed spinal cord - cut signal through vegus nerve.  He dies almost instantly.  He didn't die of hypothermia - no frost bite.  Lyuda and Thibo are next.  Difficult to say which.  Both are thrown.  Semyon is next, he is thrown.  Maybe these were outside the tent sitting or standing when it happened?  The remaining 5 survive the initial wind blast.  Chemical weapon - NO.  Chlorine gas - NO.  Chemical weapon unlikely to create a large wind blast.  Chlorine would bleach skin and hair.  Would have distinct smell like bleach.  What else?  "Very very dirty" -Zina's grubby oily looking hands - localised burns to skin and hair - wind blast- flame front - pressure wave- no eye brows, no eyes.  Couldn't be high explosives.  Would be localised, closer - disingrating bodies.  Very very dirty - finger tips and finger nails look ok -  they weren't buried -  SMOKE -  oily sooty, not fully combusted smoke - smoke inhalation -  Yuri D grey foam.  Large fire ball, wind blast and pressure wave - oily sooty smoke - - -  thermobaric device -  Fuel air bomb?  Uses up all oxygen?  Possibly would fit.  Military test gone wrong?  Accident?  Strontium 90 used as tracer?

The remaining 5 live longer than the rav 4.  Were they lying in the tent?  The tent must have been damaged -  did the side that faced the flame front catch fire?  The other side survived?  Shredded by debris?  Was the Kholat tent a different tent altogether?  Its difficult to say.  Wzs the tent even set up, or still packed when it happened?

Yuri D significant frost bite.  Yuri K had frost bite too.  Were they trying to survive without the tent?  Died of frost bite, hypothermia and smoke inhalation.  Inhalation of unburned toxic FAB fuel?  They must have survived for a while to get the frost bite. Could they have survived with their outer clothing and no tent?
 Dyatlov, Zina and Rustem - Rustem may have been knocked about in the wind blast - both temporal lobes?  Odd?  Did the survivors fight?    Could they see.?  Were they blinded by the unburned chemicals and smoke?  Ah blinded -  couldn't find or use their gear and clothing?  That would be desperate.  Geese.  If that's what happened - poor guys.

Other options -  nuclear?  Possible.  Would still generate fire ball, wind blast and oily dirty rainy fallout.  Plus radioactive contamination.  Think FAB is probably more likely.  Anything else?  Where did it happen?  When did it happen?  Lots more questions.

Regards

Star man

Another option is a crashed missile of some kind - hits the ground, and fuel explodes creating a fire ball, wind blast and lots of oily smoke.  Some burning  fuel is thrown onto the hikers - as per Nigel's theory.  Yuri K's burned leg, burned clothing (later removed and replaced) and hair. 

If we assume that those with the most superficial injuries and frost bite survived the longest, then it would mean that the two Yuris would have lived the longest.  Did Zina, Dyatlov and Rustem die relatively quickly?  None of them have significant frost bite.  Could they have died from internal injuries from the blast, or toxic substances inhaled.  Thermovaric bomb uses ethylene oxide which is toxic, narcotic and anaesthetic.  Could they have been deliberately targeted?  A thermobaric grenade might have the same effect?  Its less likely to destroy the tent completely?  Seems unlikely to me as the two Yuris appear to have survived long enough to get severe frost bite.

Air mines? 

Looks like it was some kind of explosion.  Takes out the rav4 all in one go.  Thermobaric device still fits better.  Oily smoke and toxic aftermath.

Where did it happen?  If not on Kholat then most likely on the planned route somewhere.  Before the 6th Feb.  Before they made the labaz?

Regards

Star man

Well we have been down this road a few times. Explosion big enough to do what it did would almost certainly leave traces. That means Evidence of explosion. There is no Evidence of explosion. So next step means if that theory is correct there must have been a cover up. But accidents happened a lot in the USSR, so why cover up ! ? Also those injuries to some of the Dyatlov Group do not look like injuries gained from an explosion.

[eurocentric]

Well, the lack of analysis of the foot prints, and the cuts in the tent near the entrance through the seams have been a problem for me for a while now.  This line of thinking makes it clear why. 

Also, why Yuri D would be climbing a tree with severe frost bite on hands and feet.  Why they were burnt - it doesn't make sense if they were either alive or dead.  If they were alive why would they allow their skin to burn like that, and if they died before the fire did, why did they die?  The flashlight on the 10cm of snow at the tent, the tidy nature of the tent - given the impression that they cut their way out in a panic.

Ok.  So if we cant rely on the evidence at the scene.  How do we figure out what really happened to them?  Solter's statement.  The bodies were very dirty, washed, prepared for burial ( with no relatives to formerly identify them and no autopsy) - odd.  11 bodies overall - odd.  Were the bodies, cleaned, possibly decontaminated, and then air lifted back to Kholat Syakhl for placement?  11 bodies?  Did Solter see two of the same bodies twice, at different times?  First in Feb, when they were prepped, and then in March when they were found again?  Lyuda - burned hair and face, Semyon?  Authorities need to make some changes to their appearance and then place them somewhere where they would decompose.  Missing eyes, tongue?  Chest injuries -  they were thrown by a wind blast, or accidentally dropped from a helicopter when being air lifted back? 

The tent - did the hikers actually  cut it?  Was it shredded by debris from something and made to look like it was cut.  Could there have been an incident that threw up a major amount of dirt, mud, or caused a landslide onto the tent?   Possible chemical weapon - chlorine, heavier than air so hugs the ground, will burn eyes and mucous membranes, - no toxicology report.  Might induce them to cut and tear themselves out of the tent.  Chlorine -  oxidising agent, poison, skin colour?  Oxidised skin may make them look dirty.  Yuri D lungs, grey fluid.  Chlorine causes fluid in the lungs, so you kind of drown.  Nitrogen dioxide would fo the same.  The tent - is there a record somewhere about its recovery and cleaning, prepping it to set back up on Kholat?

If you can't make the hikers disappear, you can always make the scene dissappear instead

Lots and lots of questions.  Needs further thought to piecei t together. 

Regards

Star man

Ok.  Lets continue with this line of thought.

To understand what happened to the hikers, we need to filter out the facts that cannot be faked so easily or  covered up.  If they couldn't or didn't want to make the hikers disappear, you make the scene disappear.  So that leaves the hikers - the bodies - the injuries.  Lets split the hikers into two groups.  Those with significant injuries and those with superficial injuries.  Who has the significant injuries?  - The rav 4 - convenient.  If the scene is faked, then Kolevatov, is not hugging Semyon.  Kolevatov - he didn't die last - he died first.  He was thrown by some kind of wind blast.  He landed awkwardly - deformed neck - spinal damage - severed spinal cord - cut signal through vegus nerve.  He dies almost instantly.  He didn't die of hypothermia - no frost bite.  Lyuda and Thibo are next.  Difficult to say which.  Both are thrown.  Semyon is next, he is thrown.  Maybe these were outside the tent sitting or standing when it happened?  The remaining 5 survive the initial wind blast.  Chemical weapon - NO.  Chlorine gas - NO.  Chemical weapon unlikely to create a large wind blast.  Chlorine would bleach skin and hair.  Would have distinct smell like bleach.  What else?  "Very very dirty" -Zina's grubby oily looking hands - localised burns to skin and hair - wind blast- flame front - pressure wave- no eye brows, no eyes.  Couldn't be high explosives.  Would be localised, closer - disingrating bodies.  Very very dirty - finger tips and finger nails look ok -  they weren't buried -  SMOKE -  oily sooty, not fully combusted smoke - smoke inhalation -  Yuri D grey foam.  Large fire ball, wind blast and pressure wave - oily sooty smoke - - -  thermobaric device -  Fuel air bomb?  Uses up all oxygen?  Possibly would fit.  Military test gone wrong?  Accident?  Strontium 90 used as tracer?

The remaining 5 live longer than the rav 4.  Were they lying in the tent?  The tent must have been damaged -  did the side that faced the flame front catch fire?  The other side survived?  Shredded by debris?  Was the Kholat tent a different tent altogether?  Its difficult to say.  Wzs the tent even set up, or still packed when it happened?

Yuri D significant frost bite.  Yuri K had frost bite too.  Were they trying to survive without the tent?  Died of frost bite, hypothermia and smoke inhalation.  Inhalation of unburned toxic FAB fuel?  They must have survived for a while to get the frost bite. Could they have survived with their outer clothing and no tent?
 Dyatlov, Zina and Rustem - Rustem may have been knocked about in the wind blast - both temporal lobes?  Odd?  Did the survivors fight?    Could they see.?  Were they blinded by the unburned chemicals and smoke?  Ah blinded -  couldn't find or use their gear and clothing?  That would be desperate.  Geese.  If that's what happened - poor guys.

Other options -  nuclear?  Possible.  Would still generate fire ball, wind blast and oily dirty rainy fallout.  Plus radioactive contamination.  Think FAB is probably more likely.  Anything else?  Where did it happen?  When did it happen?  Lots more questions.

Regards

Star man

Another option is a crashed missile of some kind - hits the ground, and fuel explodes creating a fire ball, wind blast and lots of oily smoke.  Some burning  fuel is thrown onto the hikers - as per Nigel's theory.  Yuri K's burned leg, burned clothing (later removed and replaced) and hair. 

If we assume that those with the most superficial injuries and frost bite survived the longest, then it would mean that the two Yuris would have lived the longest.  Did Zina, Dyatlov and Rustem die relatively quickly?  None of them have significant frost bite.  Could they have died from internal injuries from the blast, or toxic substances inhaled.  Thermovaric bomb uses ethylene oxide which is toxic, narcotic and anaesthetic.  Could they have been deliberately targeted?  A thermobaric grenade might have the same effect?  Its less likely to destroy the tent completely?  Seems unlikely to me as the two Yuris appear to have survived long enough to get severe frost bite.

Air mines? 

Looks like it was some kind of explosion.  Takes out the rav4 all in one go.  Thermobaric device still fits better.  Oily smoke and toxic aftermath.

Where did it happen?  If not on Kholat then most likely on the planned route somewhere. Before the 6th Feb.  Before they made the labaz?

Regards

Star man

If the incident involved a contaminant which would hang around, such as something radioactive, which would either take ages to clean up or be left where it was to naturally decay, for example the neutron bomb's tritium has a half life of 10.43 years, then they'd likely want to resite the tent and hikers' demise well away from the original scene, not in that forest, or there'd be risk of the rescue teams being affected and then the cover-up is blown.

The book may even suggest they died the night before, at their previous campsite, in which case all the military needed do was continue their ski trail up to the Dyatlov Pass, something which may also explain the hikers being off their planned route (an unfamiliar military mistake).

Perhaps something in the air, a toxic chemical, which in concentration or direct contact burns skin, and burned the inside of Lyuda's mouth if she began to mouth breathe, something which would tend to linger in a sheltered forest, where hikers have less chance to run away fast from it, whereas out in the open, up on the ridge, the wind should disperse it.

Unlike on the ridge, where it's assumed they would all be in the same position, inside the tent, a campsite in the forest allows for some to be in the tent, some outside by a fire, and perhaps others collecting wood, when the incident happens, to explain different exposure and injury levels.

[sarapuk]

I agree that the location of the tent when "discovered " by searchers is complete nonsense. Most people familiar with the details of the case absolutely had to realize that the hikers would have never set up camp on an exposed ridge when the forest was available a mile away. Far too many people fell for that deception.

It was on their plan..before the ascent of Otorten.  Also they had done previous expeditions that involved periods above the treeline https://dyatlovpass.com/gallery-1958-Subpolar-Ural

Yes good stuff. But the actual places where they did pitch their Tent were not specified. The Route but not the exact places. But its possible that they did pitch the Tent on the exposed Mountainside for the reason that you suggest. I have been trying to tie this final Tent pitching business into the overhaul picture of the Event or Events that happened in that final area of their expedition.

[sarapuk]

Askenadzi states that they were told that a missile was responsible.


Or they were told to say that a missile was responsible.

[sarapuk]

I really thank this forum and with all due respect to all involved, as this is the best polygon to explore the operation of the electrical jump between brain synapses in humans.
I am very sorry that Mr WAB is no longer appearing. He plays a very important role in this whole thought game. From the very beginning, it seemed to me that he was set up as some kind of coordinator, taking care on behalf of the state that public opinion would not lean too far away from the “natural destructive force they could not resist”.
 I hope everything is fine with him.
The world became small and the game of "democratic" processes could not bypass even Russia.
 "Democracy was built on slave ownership. Plato's state."
Only the ways of manipulating the masses have changed. The fact is, then, that when you feel free, you are the least free.
It is impossible to clear and conceal everything. Nine people who have already been enrolled in the system died. Relatives (some of whom are highly ranked in society) and friends and locals still ask questions. And of course journalists who know how to be really "pain in the ass" too.  And something had to be answered to this days.
"The point of disinformation is not to persuade public what to think, but to create the environment where nobody knows what to think." Gypsy.
 There was a need to invent a story that would be as plausible as possible and would obscure the truth. And today it is the same. And for more than 60 years from tragedy, everything has been spinning in the same circle. Without anything moving anywhere.
Why do you think that for the two years, the "reopening of the Dyatlov case" with all possible experts is the 100th check for whether or not there was a snow avalanche? It is precisely because there is always a need to divert attention away from what we do not want that people to know. Anything that was difficult to justify for the state, such as the fault of a rocket, army, monkeys, Jeti, Elvis Presley ..., is best replaced by a natural disaster. Because nobody can blamed or judged the nature.  So far, this formula is the most effective and is used worldwide.
In light of all that is known to the public so far, we are slowly leaning towards the fact that there were no alien, extraterrestrial, paranormal phenomena and also no “natural destructive force they could not resist”.
 ... but merely as throughout the whole history of civilization (which will also be published in Teddy’s book), was an interhuman conflict concealed by the authorities at the time in 1959. Probably because of things screwed up by the the state system and all its apparatuses that maintain it.
 And authorities of today still has no  interests to discover all the facts that happened.

I just started this for one reason only. I look forward to the development of the debate.
And remember: You don't have to believe in things just because you want to believe in them.

Interesting reading your bit of philosophy. But this Dyatlo Case cannot be truly solved without the Evidence to back up any theory. No matter what that theory is. It could be a  simple theory like Avalanche or it could be something more complicated like military accident and cover up. Evidence is needed.

[sarapuk]

I really thank this forum and with all due respect to all involved, as this is the best polygon to explore the operation of the electrical jump between brain synapses in humans.
I am very sorry that Mr WAB is no longer appearing. He plays a very important role in this whole thought game. From the very beginning, it seemed to me that he was set up as some kind of coordinator, taking care on behalf of the state that public opinion would not lean too far away from the “natural destructive force they could not resist”.
 I hope everything is fine with him.
The world became small and the game of "democratic" processes could not bypass even Russia.
 "Democracy was built on slave ownership. Plato's state."
Only the ways of manipulating the masses have changed. The fact is, then, that when you feel free, you are the least free.
It is impossible to clear and conceal everything. Nine people who have already been enrolled in the system died. Relatives (some of whom are highly ranked in society) and friends and locals still ask questions. And of course journalists who know how to be really "pain in the ass" too.  And something had to be answered to this days.
"The point of disinformation is not to persuade public what to think, but to create the environment where nobody knows what to think." Gypsy.
 There was a need to invent a story that would be as plausible as possible and would obscure the truth. And today it is the same. And for more than 60 years from tragedy, everything has been spinning in the same circle. Without anything moving anywhere.
Why do you think that for the two years, the "reopening of the Dyatlov case" with all possible experts is the 100th check for whether or not there was a snow avalanche? It is precisely because there is always a need to divert attention away from what we do not want that people to know. Anything that was difficult to justify for the state, such as the fault of a rocket, army, monkeys, Jeti, Elvis Presley ..., is best replaced by a natural disaster. Because nobody can blamed or judged the nature.  So far, this formula is the most effective and is used worldwide.
In light of all that is known to the public so far, we are slowly leaning towards the fact that there were no alien, extraterrestrial, paranormal phenomena and also no “natural destructive force they could not resist”.
 ... but merely as throughout the whole history of civilization (which will also be published in Teddy’s book), was an interhuman conflict concealed by the authorities at the time in 1959. Probably because of things screwed up by the the state system and all its apparatuses that maintain it.
 And authorities of today still has no  interests to discover all the facts that happened.

I just started this for one reason only. I look forward to the development of the debate.
And remember: You don't have to believe in things just because you want to believe in them.

I'd completely agree that the behaviour of the state both then and now strengthens the coverup/conspiracy theories.


However what equally weakens the same is what followed the event, the lack of a cleanup operation to remove all the evidence including the bodies, involvement of civilians in the rescue and subsequent searching and at least one mystery group of government personnel. The state's behaviour then can be explained by :-

• icbm testing (this would have been the big priority, to suppress interest in lights crossing the sky, the editor of the Tagil Worker newspaper being severely reprimanded for reporting such an event).
• concerns for defection (Alexander).
• high ranking families.
• genuinely puzzled.

However the state's recent behaviour is of course more interesting wrt weighting the evidence for a coverup.

And I will add to that. Governments do and always have had a propensity to cover something up if its in the National Interest to do so.

[sarapuk]

Well I'm at a complete loss. I've read so much over so many years I haven't a clue.

I suppose the media didn't help much with over exaggerated truths but that's how they sell their stories.

I read loose canons excellent thread on the tent. I have also just read a lot of the case files and witness statements which seem to contradict themselves.....a lot.

The tent was said to be torn in some of their statements and there are admissions that some of the searchers may have done some of the damage.

I just wonder how one would decant a frozen tent that's pinned to the ground and frozen over with snow. I could imagine trying to lift up a flattend tent, making a small incision from the outside  then putting my hand in the hole or existing tears and cutting from the underside , which would be the inside. You don't know what's under the tent so one might peal it open In case there was body's under the canvas.

They did do forensics on the tent cuts under a microscope but also state when they received the tent it was in a crumpled mess. I also find it unusual that there's a picture claiming the actual cut of the searcher that made a hole with the pic ax but none of the other holes were noted in detail. ( Ah yes comrade , sorry I only did one cut , the rest was already done by the KGB)

 I think a lot of it is just poor untrained investigating and recording as opposed to a cover up.

But I'm looking forward to learning otherwise.

Well the more I look into it the more I see a host of factors at play including Poor Investigation. Poor Autopsy Reports. And potential so called Cover Up, in the National Interest.

[sarapuk]

Although I can't find it now I recall reading that the searchers drank the alcohol found in the hikers tent. But...I also read that Yuri Yudin was unable to acquire alcohol for the trip. What gives? Did the hikers have alcohol or not? And if they didn't then how the heck did the searchers find it in the tent unless it was placed there after the group died? Perhaps this means nothing but it certainly seems strange.

According to the Case Files a Flask of Alcohol was found in the Tent by the Searchers. Other than that, its anyones guess.

[sarapuk]

Now let’s wait and see what Teddy’s book will reveal. The least I expect is that it won't end with the sentence, "... but we'll probably never know what really happened ..." But that we'll all say together, "Finally. That's it!" Teddy, you've taken on a lot of responsibility. Best of luck.

Well the Forum continues. If there is a new theory that finally tells us what happened then there has to be Evidence to back it up or, CASE NOT SOLVED.

[tekumze]

Dear Sarapuk.
Just like you wrote. Proof is needed to solve any problem. And neither yours nor my writing on the forum will solve anything. If you paid attention to my first sentence you may have noticed that I am interested in the forum as a polygon for studying electrical impulses in human brain synapses. That is, how people from different social structures cognitively respond to complex unsolvable events from the past and present. This is part of my dissertation research. Of course, I hope that one day the truth of the Dyatlov group tragedy will be revealed. Only this is unlikely to happen on the forum. What do you think?

[DAXXY]

Ideas come from every persons different life experiences and background. Some are very imaginative and others more plausible and involve what little pieces of evidence are on display. 

Often explanations are mundane like, why is Dyatlov's jacket on the ground outside the tent ?  Because he gave it to someone to stand on while they discussed a search plan for the 2 missing Yuris at the cedar tree.  Walking in snow in layers of wool socks is ok if you keep moving and don't stand still... wool keeps it's insulation qualities even when wet...

There are classic signs of late stage hypothermia affecting the 2 Yuri's at the cedar tree.  One is the cutting off and discarding of their own clothing (Paradoxical Undressing) Another is the evidence of Pulmonary Edema (Grey Foam) on the face and mouth of Yuri Doroshenko, another sign is the burns and the bitten right hand on Yuri Krivonischenko's body due to him experiencing greatly reduced sensation.

[Star man]

Well, the lack of analysis of the foot prints, and the cuts in the tent near the entrance through the seams have been a problem for me for a while now.  This line of thinking makes it clear why. 

Also, why Yuri D would be climbing a tree with severe frost bite on hands and feet.  Why they were burnt - it doesn't make sense if they were either alive or dead.  If they were alive why would they allow their skin to burn like that, and if they died before the fire did, why did they die?  The flashlight on the 10cm of snow at the tent, the tidy nature of the tent - given the impression that they cut their way out in a panic.

Ok.  So if we cant rely on the evidence at the scene.  How do we figure out what really happened to them?  Solter's statement.  The bodies were very dirty, washed, prepared for burial ( with no relatives to formerly identify them and no autopsy) - odd.  11 bodies overall - odd.  Were the bodies, cleaned, possibly decontaminated, and then air lifted back to Kholat Syakhl for placement?  11 bodies?  Did Solter see two of the same bodies twice, at different times?  First in Feb, when they were prepped, and then in March when they were found again?  Lyuda - burned hair and face, Semyon?  Authorities need to make some changes to their appearance and then place them somewhere where they would decompose.  Missing eyes, tongue?  Chest injuries -  they were thrown by a wind blast, or accidentally dropped from a helicopter when being air lifted back? 

The tent - did the hikers actually  cut it?  Was it shredded by debris from something and made to look like it was cut.  Could there have been an incident that threw up a major amount of dirt, mud, or caused a landslide onto the tent?   Possible chemical weapon - chlorine, heavier than air so hugs the ground, will burn eyes and mucous membranes, - no toxicology report.  Might induce them to cut and tear themselves out of the tent.  Chlorine -  oxidising agent, poison, skin colour?  Oxidised skin may make them look dirty.  Yuri D lungs, grey fluid.  Chlorine causes fluid in the lungs, so you kind of drown.  Nitrogen dioxide would fo the same.  The tent - is there a record somewhere about its recovery and cleaning, prepping it to set back up on Kholat?

If you can't make the hikers disappear, you can always make the scene dissappear instead

Lots and lots of questions.  Needs further thought to piecei t together. 

Regards

Star man

Ok.  Lets continue with this line of thought.

To understand what happened to the hikers, we need to filter out the facts that cannot be faked so easily or  covered up.  If they couldn't or didn't want to make the hikers disappear, you make the scene disappear.  So that leaves the hikers - the bodies - the injuries.  Lets split the hikers into two groups.  Those with significant injuries and those with superficial injuries.  Who has the significant injuries?  - The rav 4 - convenient.  If the scene is faked, then Kolevatov, is not hugging Semyon.  Kolevatov - he didn't die last - he died first.  He was thrown by some kind of wind blast.  He landed awkwardly - deformed neck - spinal damage - severed spinal cord - cut signal through vegus nerve.  He dies almost instantly.  He didn't die of hypothermia - no frost bite.  Lyuda and Thibo are next.  Difficult to say which.  Both are thrown.  Semyon is next, he is thrown.  Maybe these were outside the tent sitting or standing when it happened?  The remaining 5 survive the initial wind blast.  Chemical weapon - NO.  Chlorine gas - NO.  Chemical weapon unlikely to create a large wind blast.  Chlorine would bleach skin and hair.  Would have distinct smell like bleach.  What else?  "Very very dirty" -Zina's grubby oily looking hands - localised burns to skin and hair - wind blast- flame front - pressure wave- no eye brows, no eyes.  Couldn't be high explosives.  Would be localised, closer - disingrating bodies.  Very very dirty - finger tips and finger nails look ok -  they weren't buried -  SMOKE -  oily sooty, not fully combusted smoke - smoke inhalation -  Yuri D grey foam.  Large fire ball, wind blast and pressure wave - oily sooty smoke - - -  thermobaric device -  Fuel air bomb?  Uses up all oxygen?  Possibly would fit.  Military test gone wrong?  Accident?  Strontium 90 used as tracer?

The remaining 5 live longer than the rav 4.  Were they lying in the tent?  The tent must have been damaged -  did the side that faced the flame front catch fire?  The other side survived?  Shredded by debris?  Was the Kholat tent a different tent altogether?  Its difficult to say.  Wzs the tent even set up, or still packed when it happened?

Yuri D significant frost bite.  Yuri K had frost bite too.  Were they trying to survive without the tent?  Died of frost bite, hypothermia and smoke inhalation.  Inhalation of unburned toxic FAB fuel?  They must have survived for a while to get the frost bite. Could they have survived with their outer clothing and no tent?
 Dyatlov, Zina and Rustem - Rustem may have been knocked about in the wind blast - both temporal lobes?  Odd?  Did the survivors fight?    Could they see.?  Were they blinded by the unburned chemicals and smoke?  Ah blinded -  couldn't find or use their gear and clothing?  That would be desperate.  Geese.  If that's what happened - poor guys.

Other options -  nuclear?  Possible.  Would still generate fire ball, wind blast and oily dirty rainy fallout.  Plus radioactive contamination.  Think FAB is probably more likely.  Anything else?  Where did it happen?  When did it happen?  Lots more questions.

Regards

Star man

Another option is a crashed missile of some kind - hits the ground, and fuel explodes creating a fire ball, wind blast and lots of oily smoke.  Some burning  fuel is thrown onto the hikers - as per Nigel's theory.  Yuri K's burned leg, burned clothing (later removed and replaced) and hair. 

If we assume that those with the most superficial injuries and frost bite survived the longest, then it would mean that the two Yuris would have lived the longest.  Did Zina, Dyatlov and Rustem die relatively quickly?  None of them have significant frost bite.  Could they have died from internal injuries from the blast, or toxic substances inhaled.  Thermovaric bomb uses ethylene oxide which is toxic, narcotic and anaesthetic.  Could they have been deliberately targeted?  A thermobaric grenade might have the same effect?  Its less likely to destroy the tent completely?  Seems unlikely to me as the two Yuris appear to have survived long enough to get severe frost bite.

Air mines? 

Looks like it was some kind of explosion.  Takes out the rav4 all in one go.  Thermobaric device still fits better.  Oily smoke and toxic aftermath.

Where did it happen?  If not on Kholat then most likely on the planned route somewhere.  Before the 6th Feb.  Before they made the labaz?

Regards

Star man

Askenadzi states that they were told that a missile was responsible.


The 2 yuris could have got the worst frostbite because they took the longest to get to the forest. This fits with a second event on the hill which finished Zinaida and Rustem with Igor joining the Yuris but giving up before the cedar.

I was thinking more a single event, but who knows.

Regards

Star man

[GKM]

Over and over again I read "NO EVIDENCE ". What evidence do you want? A signed confession? After over 60 years evidence is unlikely to be found. All that is left is plausible theories or some not so plausible theories. The tent is missing, the footprints were never examined by experts, the autopsy reports are, to say the least, extremely lacking. The odds of any evidence appearing "out of the blue "is are slim to none. I hope no is expecting the group to return from the dead to tell us all exactly what happened, how it happened, and why it happened...or WHO is responsible for what happened. I would love to see foolproof evidence but I will not delude myself into believing that EVIDENCE is ever going to appear.

[Star man]

Well, the lack of analysis of the foot prints, and the cuts in the tent near the entrance through the seams have been a problem for me for a while now.  This line of thinking makes it clear why. 

Also, why Yuri D would be climbing a tree with severe frost bite on hands and feet.  Why they were burnt - it doesn't make sense if they were either alive or dead.  If they were alive why would they allow their skin to burn like that, and if they died before the fire did, why did they die?  The flashlight on the 10cm of snow at the tent, the tidy nature of the tent - given the impression that they cut their way out in a panic.

Ok.  So if we cant rely on the evidence at the scene.  How do we figure out what really happened to them?  Solter's statement.  The bodies were very dirty, washed, prepared for burial ( with no relatives to formerly identify them and no autopsy) - odd.  11 bodies overall - odd.  Were the bodies, cleaned, possibly decontaminated, and then air lifted back to Kholat Syakhl for placement?  11 bodies?  Did Solter see two of the same bodies twice, at different times?  First in Feb, when they were prepped, and then in March when they were found again?  Lyuda - burned hair and face, Semyon?  Authorities need to make some changes to their appearance and then place them somewhere where they would decompose.  Missing eyes, tongue?  Chest injuries -  they were thrown by a wind blast, or accidentally dropped from a helicopter when being air lifted back? 

The tent - did the hikers actually  cut it?  Was it shredded by debris from something and made to look like it was cut.  Could there have been an incident that threw up a major amount of dirt, mud, or caused a landslide onto the tent?   Possible chemical weapon - chlorine, heavier than air so hugs the ground, will burn eyes and mucous membranes, - no toxicology report.  Might induce them to cut and tear themselves out of the tent.  Chlorine -  oxidising agent, poison, skin colour?  Oxidised skin may make them look dirty.  Yuri D lungs, grey fluid.  Chlorine causes fluid in the lungs, so you kind of drown.  Nitrogen dioxide would fo the same.  The tent - is there a record somewhere about its recovery and cleaning, prepping it to set back up on Kholat?

If you can't make the hikers disappear, you can always make the scene dissappear instead

Lots and lots of questions.  Needs further thought to piecei t together. 

Regards

Star man

Ok.  Lets continue with this line of thought.

To understand what happened to the hikers, we need to filter out the facts that cannot be faked so easily or  covered up.  If they couldn't or didn't want to make the hikers disappear, you make the scene disappear.  So that leaves the hikers - the bodies - the injuries.  Lets split the hikers into two groups.  Those with significant injuries and those with superficial injuries.  Who has the significant injuries?  - The rav 4 - convenient.  If the scene is faked, then Kolevatov, is not hugging Semyon.  Kolevatov - he didn't die last - he died first.  He was thrown by some kind of wind blast.  He landed awkwardly - deformed neck - spinal damage - severed spinal cord - cut signal through vegus nerve.  He dies almost instantly.  He didn't die of hypothermia - no frost bite.  Lyuda and Thibo are next.  Difficult to say which.  Both are thrown.  Semyon is next, he is thrown.  Maybe these were outside the tent sitting or standing when it happened?  The remaining 5 survive the initial wind blast.  Chemical weapon - NO.  Chlorine gas - NO.  Chemical weapon unlikely to create a large wind blast.  Chlorine would bleach skin and hair.  Would have distinct smell like bleach.  What else?  "Very very dirty" -Zina's grubby oily looking hands - localised burns to skin and hair - wind blast- flame front - pressure wave- no eye brows, no eyes.  Couldn't be high explosives.  Would be localised, closer - disingrating bodies.  Very very dirty - finger tips and finger nails look ok -  they weren't buried -  SMOKE -  oily sooty, not fully combusted smoke - smoke inhalation -  Yuri D grey foam.  Large fire ball, wind blast and pressure wave - oily sooty smoke - - -  thermobaric device -  Fuel air bomb?  Uses up all oxygen?  Possibly would fit.  Military test gone wrong?  Accident?  Strontium 90 used as tracer?

The remaining 5 live longer than the rav 4.  Were they lying in the tent?  The tent must have been damaged -  did the side that faced the flame front catch fire?  The other side survived?  Shredded by debris?  Was the Kholat tent a different tent altogether?  Its difficult to say.  Wzs the tent even set up, or still packed when it happened?

Yuri D significant frost bite.  Yuri K had frost bite too.  Were they trying to survive without the tent?  Died of frost bite, hypothermia and smoke inhalation.  Inhalation of unburned toxic FAB fuel?  They must have survived for a while to get the frost bite. Could they have survived with their outer clothing and no tent?
 Dyatlov, Zina and Rustem - Rustem may have been knocked about in the wind blast - both temporal lobes?  Odd?  Did the survivors fight?    Could they see.?  Were they blinded by the unburned chemicals and smoke?  Ah blinded -  couldn't find or use their gear and clothing?  That would be desperate.  Geese.  If that's what happened - poor guys.

Other options -  nuclear?  Possible.  Would still generate fire ball, wind blast and oily dirty rainy fallout.  Plus radioactive contamination.  Think FAB is probably more likely.  Anything else?  Where did it happen?  When did it happen?  Lots more questions.

Regards

Star man

Another option is a crashed missile of some kind - hits the ground, and fuel explodes creating a fire ball, wind blast and lots of oily smoke.  Some burning  fuel is thrown onto the hikers - as per Nigel's theory.  Yuri K's burned leg, burned clothing (later removed and replaced) and hair. 

If we assume that those with the most superficial injuries and frost bite survived the longest, then it would mean that the two Yuris would have lived the longest.  Did Zina, Dyatlov and Rustem die relatively quickly?  None of them have significant frost bite.  Could they have died from internal injuries from the blast, or toxic substances inhaled.  Thermovaric bomb uses ethylene oxide which is toxic, narcotic and anaesthetic.  Could they have been deliberately targeted?  A thermobaric grenade might have the same effect?  Its less likely to destroy the tent completely?  Seems unlikely to me as the two Yuris appear to have survived long enough to get severe frost bite.

Air mines? 

Looks like it was some kind of explosion.  Takes out the rav4 all in one go.  Thermobaric device still fits better.  Oily smoke and toxic aftermath.

Where did it happen?  If not on Kholat then most likely on the planned route somewhere.  Before the 6th Feb.  Before they made the labaz?

Regards

Star man

Well we have been down this road a few times. Explosion big enough to do what it did would almost certainly leave traces. That means Evidence of explosion. There is no Evidence of explosion. So next step means if that theory is correct there must have been a cover up. But accidents happened a lot in the USSR, so why cover up ! ? Also those injuries to some of the Dyatlov Group do not look like injuries gained from an explosion.

Its still speculation without evidence DB. Always has been.  I for one don't have evidence to underpin it.  I have some ideas on how to narrow down the - where and when, but I am going to stop now.  And listen.

If Teddy finaly brings an end to the mystery then I hope the 9 hikers can finally rest in piece and it brings closure to any remaining relatives and friends.

Maybe Teddy will have to find another great mystery to solve?

Regards

Star man

[Star man]

Well, the lack of analysis of the foot prints, and the cuts in the tent near the entrance through the seams have been a problem for me for a while now.  This line of thinking makes it clear why. 

Also, why Yuri D would be climbing a tree with severe frost bite on hands and feet.  Why they were burnt - it doesn't make sense if they were either alive or dead.  If they were alive why would they allow their skin to burn like that, and if they died before the fire did, why did they die?  The flashlight on the 10cm of snow at the tent, the tidy nature of the tent - given the impression that they cut their way out in a panic.

Ok.  So if we cant rely on the evidence at the scene.  How do we figure out what really happened to them?  Solter's statement.  The bodies were very dirty, washed, prepared for burial ( with no relatives to formerly identify them and no autopsy) - odd.  11 bodies overall - odd.  Were the bodies, cleaned, possibly decontaminated, and then air lifted back to Kholat Syakhl for placement?  11 bodies?  Did Solter see two of the same bodies twice, at different times?  First in Feb, when they were prepped, and then in March when they were found again?  Lyuda - burned hair and face, Semyon?  Authorities need to make some changes to their appearance and then place them somewhere where they would decompose.  Missing eyes, tongue?  Chest injuries -  they were thrown by a wind blast, or accidentally dropped from a helicopter when being air lifted back? 

The tent - did the hikers actually  cut it?  Was it shredded by debris from something and made to look like it was cut.  Could there have been an incident that threw up a major amount of dirt, mud, or caused a landslide onto the tent?   Possible chemical weapon - chlorine, heavier than air so hugs the ground, will burn eyes and mucous membranes, - no toxicology report.  Might induce them to cut and tear themselves out of the tent.  Chlorine -  oxidising agent, poison, skin colour?  Oxidised skin may make them look dirty.  Yuri D lungs, grey fluid.  Chlorine causes fluid in the lungs, so you kind of drown.  Nitrogen dioxide would fo the same.  The tent - is there a record somewhere about its recovery and cleaning, prepping it to set back up on Kholat?

If you can't make the hikers disappear, you can always make the scene dissappear instead

Lots and lots of questions.  Needs further thought to piecei t together. 

Regards

Star man

Ok.  Lets continue with this line of thought.

To understand what happened to the hikers, we need to filter out the facts that cannot be faked so easily or  covered up.  If they couldn't or didn't want to make the hikers disappear, you make the scene disappear.  So that leaves the hikers - the bodies - the injuries.  Lets split the hikers into two groups.  Those with significant injuries and those with superficial injuries.  Who has the significant injuries?  - The rav 4 - convenient.  If the scene is faked, then Kolevatov, is not hugging Semyon.  Kolevatov - he didn't die last - he died first.  He was thrown by some kind of wind blast.  He landed awkwardly - deformed neck - spinal damage - severed spinal cord - cut signal through vegus nerve.  He dies almost instantly.  He didn't die of hypothermia - no frost bite.  Lyuda and Thibo are next.  Difficult to say which.  Both are thrown.  Semyon is next, he is thrown.  Maybe these were outside the tent sitting or standing when it happened?  The remaining 5 survive the initial wind blast.  Chemical weapon - NO.  Chlorine gas - NO.  Chemical weapon unlikely to create a large wind blast.  Chlorine would bleach skin and hair.  Would have distinct smell like bleach.  What else?  "Very very dirty" -Zina's grubby oily looking hands - localised burns to skin and hair - wind blast- flame front - pressure wave- no eye brows, no eyes.  Couldn't be high explosives.  Would be localised, closer - disingrating bodies.  Very very dirty - finger tips and finger nails look ok -  they weren't buried -  SMOKE -  oily sooty, not fully combusted smoke - smoke inhalation -  Yuri D grey foam.  Large fire ball, wind blast and pressure wave - oily sooty smoke - - -  thermobaric device -  Fuel air bomb?  Uses up all oxygen?  Possibly would fit.  Military test gone wrong?  Accident?  Strontium 90 used as tracer?

The remaining 5 live longer than the rav 4.  Were they lying in the tent?  The tent must have been damaged -  did the side that faced the flame front catch fire?  The other side survived?  Shredded by debris?  Was the Kholat tent a different tent altogether?  Its difficult to say.  Wzs the tent even set up, or still packed when it happened?

Yuri D significant frost bite.  Yuri K had frost bite too.  Were they trying to survive without the tent?  Died of frost bite, hypothermia and smoke inhalation.  Inhalation of unburned toxic FAB fuel?  They must have survived for a while to get the frost bite. Could they have survived with their outer clothing and no tent?
 Dyatlov, Zina and Rustem - Rustem may have been knocked about in the wind blast - both temporal lobes?  Odd?  Did the survivors fight?    Could they see.?  Were they blinded by the unburned chemicals and smoke?  Ah blinded -  couldn't find or use their gear and clothing?  That would be desperate.  Geese.  If that's what happened - poor guys.

Other options -  nuclear?  Possible.  Would still generate fire ball, wind blast and oily dirty rainy fallout.  Plus radioactive contamination.  Think FAB is probably more likely.  Anything else?  Where did it happen?  When did it happen?  Lots more questions.

Regards

Star man

Another option is a crashed missile of some kind - hits the ground, and fuel explodes creating a fire ball, wind blast and lots of oily smoke.  Some burning  fuel is thrown onto the hikers - as per Nigel's theory.  Yuri K's burned leg, burned clothing (later removed and replaced) and hair. 

If we assume that those with the most superficial injuries and frost bite survived the longest, then it would mean that the two Yuris would have lived the longest.  Did Zina, Dyatlov and Rustem die relatively quickly?  None of them have significant frost bite.  Could they have died from internal injuries from the blast, or toxic substances inhaled.  Thermovaric bomb uses ethylene oxide which is toxic, narcotic and anaesthetic.  Could they have been deliberately targeted?  A thermobaric grenade might have the same effect?  Its less likely to destroy the tent completely?  Seems unlikely to me as the two Yuris appear to have survived long enough to get severe frost bite.

Air mines? 

Looks like it was some kind of explosion.  Takes out the rav4 all in one go.  Thermobaric device still fits better.  Oily smoke and toxic aftermath.

Where did it happen?  If not on Kholat then most likely on the planned route somewhere. Before the 6th Feb.  Before they made the labaz?

Regards

Star man

If the incident involved a contaminant which would hang around, such as something radioactive, which would either take ages to clean up or be left where it was to naturally decay, for example the neutron bomb's tritium has a half life of 10.43 years, then they'd likely want to resite the tent and hikers' demise well away from the original scene, not in that forest, or there'd be risk of the rescue teams being affected and then the cover-up is blown.

The book may even suggest they died the night before, at their previous campsite, in which case all the military needed do was continue their ski trail up to the Dyatlov Pass, something which may also explain the hikers being off their planned route (an unfamiliar military mistake).

Perhaps something in the air, a toxic chemical, which in concentration or direct contact burns skin, and burned the inside of Lyuda's mouth if she began to mouth breathe, something which would tend to linger in a sheltered forest, where hikers have less chance to run away fast from it, whereas out in the open, up on the ridge, the wind should disperse it.

Unlike on the ridge, where it's assumed they would all be in the same position, inside the tent, a campsite in the forest allows for some to be in the tent, some outside by a fire, and perhaps others collecting wood, when the incident happens, to explain different exposure and injury levels.

Possibly Euro.  Looks like some kind of large explosion  I've decided not to speculate any further.  Gonna just listen now.

Regards

Star man

[RidgeWatcher]

Once the Dyatlov hikers climbed up to the plateau of the Dyatlov Pass, somewhere between Boot Rock and the tent site, Igor Dyatlov wouldn't have dragged his tired group further up the mountain. When you live/visit those latitudes you pay very close attention to the sunlight and where it's at on the horizon, especially in the mountains, they didn't have much time. The group could have spent their weaning daylight minutes going over the pass to the tree line just as fast as climbing up to the tent site and needing extra minutes digging and setting up the tent in the wind.

If they ever were up on Kholat Syakhl it was for a very good reason, as opposed to the cedar or forest. I don't think it is fair to criticize Igor Dyatlov when we don't have all the evidence.

[Ziljoe]

Having trawled through this website I think they got further . The diaries shouldn't have stopped where they did although some of the diaries are missing.
I would have expected more detail in them.

The labaz is all wrong and should have  been set up later,or further along the trail.

There is so much contradicting details from the witnesses. For example it says there was no sign of a  trail to the tent and others say there was and it was covered with wind blown snow. Plus they found the tent on the first day of searching? With a tiny peak sticking out. That's odd because the Vickers could have been anywhere over the whole planned route.

Most likely in the woods , yet they look at 1079 first.....

And the interview of the nurse,PI about 11 bodies but no autopsy and the two girls being found so close in days together.

It's Teddy that's got me thinking and looking. The tent was closer to otorton perhaps. The search was forced to be where it was.

Just thinking out loud....

[Ziljoe]

That's odd because the hikers could have been anywhere over the whole planned route.

[sarapuk]

Dear Sarapuk.
Just like you wrote. Proof is needed to solve any problem. And neither yours nor my writing on the forum will solve anything. If you paid attention to my first sentence you may have noticed that I am interested in the forum as a polygon for studying electrical impulses in human brain synapses. That is, how people from different social structures cognitively respond to complex unsolvable events from the past and present. This is part of my dissertation research. Of course, I hope that one day the truth of the Dyatlov group tragedy will be revealed. Only this is unlikely to happen on the forum. What do you think?

Well we each have our reasons for being in the Forum. And it soon starts to be enthralling. I like the investigation aspect as in a law case. Others may approach it differently. Teddy has done a great job with the main Website and this Forum, its probably the best in the World on this Dyatlov Mystery. I noticed that there has been some criticism from certain Russian quarters concerning us so called Amateurs. But I should point out that some of the greatest thinkers in history were Amateurs, ie, they didnt have loads of qualifications and letters after their names, etc. But will the Forum help to solve this Dyatlov Mystery ! ? Who knows. Lots of information has come out of Russia since the demise of the USSR.

[sarapuk]

Ideas come from every persons different life experiences and background. Some are very imaginative and others more plausible and involve what little pieces of evidence are on display. 

Often explanations are mundane like, why is Dyatlov's jacket on the ground outside the tent ?  Because he gave it to someone to stand on while they discussed a search plan for the 2 missing Yuris at the cedar tree.  Walking in snow in layers of wool socks is ok if you keep moving and don't stand still... wool keeps it's insulation qualities even when wet...

There are classic signs of late stage hypothermia affecting the 2 Yuri's at the cedar tree.  One is the cutting off and discarding of their own clothing (Paradoxical Undressing) Another is the evidence of Pulmonary Edema (Grey Foam) on the face and mouth of Yuri Doroshenko, another sign is the burns and the bitten right hand on Yuri Krivonischenko's body due to him experiencing greatly reduced sensation.

Yes every one can bring something to this Forum. The Forum is non the less about a real Event that began as a search and soon became a Criminal Case. So I like to look at it in terms that Detectives and also Lawyers would look at a Case, etc.

[sarapuk]

Over and over again I read "NO EVIDENCE ". What evidence do you want? A signed confession? After over 60 years evidence is unlikely to be found. All that is left is plausible theories or some not so plausible theories. The tent is missing, the footprints were never examined by experts, the autopsy reports are, to say the least, extremely lacking. The odds of any evidence appearing "out of the blue "is are slim to none. I hope no is expecting the group to return from the dead to tell us all exactly what happened, how it happened, and why it happened...or WHO is responsible for what happened. I would love to see foolproof evidence but I will not delude myself into believing that EVIDENCE is ever going to appear.

Well unfortunately a Case cannot be proven unless there is Evidence to back it up. We do have some Evidence but it doesnt help us to say for certain exactly what happened. Also Evidence has come to light since the demise of the USSR. So who knows, maybe more Evidence is still to come.

[sarapuk]

Well, the lack of analysis of the foot prints, and the cuts in the tent near the entrance through the seams have been a problem for me for a while now.  This line of thinking makes it clear why. 

Also, why Yuri D would be climbing a tree with severe frost bite on hands and feet.  Why they were burnt - it doesn't make sense if they were either alive or dead.  If they were alive why would they allow their skin to burn like that, and if they died before the fire did, why did they die?  The flashlight on the 10cm of snow at the tent, the tidy nature of the tent - given the impression that they cut their way out in a panic.

Ok.  So if we cant rely on the evidence at the scene.  How do we figure out what really happened to them?  Solter's statement.  The bodies were very dirty, washed, prepared for burial ( with no relatives to formerly identify them and no autopsy) - odd.  11 bodies overall - odd.  Were the bodies, cleaned, possibly decontaminated, and then air lifted back to Kholat Syakhl for placement?  11 bodies?  Did Solter see two of the same bodies twice, at different times?  First in Feb, when they were prepped, and then in March when they were found again?  Lyuda - burned hair and face, Semyon?  Authorities need to make some changes to their appearance and then place them somewhere where they would decompose.  Missing eyes, tongue?  Chest injuries -  they were thrown by a wind blast, or accidentally dropped from a helicopter when being air lifted back? 

The tent - did the hikers actually  cut it?  Was it shredded by debris from something and made to look like it was cut.  Could there have been an incident that threw up a major amount of dirt, mud, or caused a landslide onto the tent?   Possible chemical weapon - chlorine, heavier than air so hugs the ground, will burn eyes and mucous membranes, - no toxicology report.  Might induce them to cut and tear themselves out of the tent.  Chlorine -  oxidising agent, poison, skin colour?  Oxidised skin may make them look dirty.  Yuri D lungs, grey fluid.  Chlorine causes fluid in the lungs, so you kind of drown.  Nitrogen dioxide would fo the same.  The tent - is there a record somewhere about its recovery and cleaning, prepping it to set back up on Kholat?

If you can't make the hikers disappear, you can always make the scene dissappear instead

Lots and lots of questions.  Needs further thought to piecei t together. 

Regards

Star man

Ok.  Lets continue with this line of thought.

To understand what happened to the hikers, we need to filter out the facts that cannot be faked so easily or  covered up.  If they couldn't or didn't want to make the hikers disappear, you make the scene disappear.  So that leaves the hikers - the bodies - the injuries.  Lets split the hikers into two groups.  Those with significant injuries and those with superficial injuries.  Who has the significant injuries?  - The rav 4 - convenient.  If the scene is faked, then Kolevatov, is not hugging Semyon.  Kolevatov - he didn't die last - he died first.  He was thrown by some kind of wind blast.  He landed awkwardly - deformed neck - spinal damage - severed spinal cord - cut signal through vegus nerve.  He dies almost instantly.  He didn't die of hypothermia - no frost bite.  Lyuda and Thibo are next.  Difficult to say which.  Both are thrown.  Semyon is next, he is thrown.  Maybe these were outside the tent sitting or standing when it happened?  The remaining 5 survive the initial wind blast.  Chemical weapon - NO.  Chlorine gas - NO.  Chemical weapon unlikely to create a large wind blast.  Chlorine would bleach skin and hair.  Would have distinct smell like bleach.  What else?  "Very very dirty" -Zina's grubby oily looking hands - localised burns to skin and hair - wind blast- flame front - pressure wave- no eye brows, no eyes.  Couldn't be high explosives.  Would be localised, closer - disingrating bodies.  Very very dirty - finger tips and finger nails look ok -  they weren't buried -  SMOKE -  oily sooty, not fully combusted smoke - smoke inhalation -  Yuri D grey foam.  Large fire ball, wind blast and pressure wave - oily sooty smoke - - -  thermobaric device -  Fuel air bomb?  Uses up all oxygen?  Possibly would fit.  Military test gone wrong?  Accident?  Strontium 90 used as tracer?

The remaining 5 live longer than the rav 4.  Were they lying in the tent?  The tent must have been damaged -  did the side that faced the flame front catch fire?  The other side survived?  Shredded by debris?  Was the Kholat tent a different tent altogether?  Its difficult to say.  Wzs the tent even set up, or still packed when it happened?

Yuri D significant frost bite.  Yuri K had frost bite too.  Were they trying to survive without the tent?  Died of frost bite, hypothermia and smoke inhalation.  Inhalation of unburned toxic FAB fuel?  They must have survived for a while to get the frost bite. Could they have survived with their outer clothing and no tent?
 Dyatlov, Zina and Rustem - Rustem may have been knocked about in the wind blast - both temporal lobes?  Odd?  Did the survivors fight?    Could they see.?  Were they blinded by the unburned chemicals and smoke?  Ah blinded -  couldn't find or use their gear and clothing?  That would be desperate.  Geese.  If that's what happened - poor guys.

Other options -  nuclear?  Possible.  Would still generate fire ball, wind blast and oily dirty rainy fallout.  Plus radioactive contamination.  Think FAB is probably more likely.  Anything else?  Where did it happen?  When did it happen?  Lots more questions.

Regards

Star man

Another option is a crashed missile of some kind - hits the ground, and fuel explodes creating a fire ball, wind blast and lots of oily smoke.  Some burning  fuel is thrown onto the hikers - as per Nigel's theory.  Yuri K's burned leg, burned clothing (later removed and replaced) and hair. 

If we assume that those with the most superficial injuries and frost bite survived the longest, then it would mean that the two Yuris would have lived the longest.  Did Zina, Dyatlov and Rustem die relatively quickly?  None of them have significant frost bite.  Could they have died from internal injuries from the blast, or toxic substances inhaled.  Thermovaric bomb uses ethylene oxide which is toxic, narcotic and anaesthetic.  Could they have been deliberately targeted?  A thermobaric grenade might have the same effect?  Its less likely to destroy the tent completely?  Seems unlikely to me as the two Yuris appear to have survived long enough to get severe frost bite.

Air mines? 

Looks like it was some kind of explosion.  Takes out the rav4 all in one go.  Thermobaric device still fits better.  Oily smoke and toxic aftermath.

Where did it happen?  If not on Kholat then most likely on the planned route somewhere.  Before the 6th Feb.  Before they made the labaz?

Regards

Star man

Well we have been down this road a few times. Explosion big enough to do what it did would almost certainly leave traces. That means Evidence of explosion. There is no Evidence of explosion. So next step means if that theory is correct there must have been a cover up. But accidents happened a lot in the USSR, so why cover up ! ? Also those injuries to some of the Dyatlov Group do not look like injuries gained from an explosion.

Its still speculation without evidence DB. Always has been.  I for one don't have evidence to underpin it.  I have some ideas on how to narrow down the - where and when, but I am going to stop now.  And listen.

If Teddy finaly brings an end to the mystery then I hope the 9 hikers can finally rest in piece and it brings closure to any remaining relatives and friends.

Maybe Teddy will have to find another great mystery to solve?

Regards

Star man

Well Iam not stopping. I will carry on in this Forum for as long as there is something to discuss, and for as long as Teddy wants to continue with it.

[tekumze]

Sarapuk, I totally agree with you. And that's exactly why I'm here, too. Hello to everyone on this forum and thank you for your effort. 

[Ziljoe]

I'm impressed by the bigger picture. This is the 50s , women allowed education, to join men in physical , hard physical adventures, treated like equals . Quite fascinating compared to the west. Just an observation.

It is so interesting to see and read their joy of music or understanding of the different cultures in Russia. They spoke of love, music and passion . The photos all show smiles and adventure. I find that so interesting because of my bigotry of how the USSR was. I was wrong....

[RidgeWatcher]

I, for one, have always enjoyed hearing all the other peoples' ideas on this forum, regardless of evidence. I have always thought the Dyatlov Pass case could be solved with or without evidence. Sometimes, just thinking, and asking questions about a subject can bring about a resolution. I am very curious to see how this case was solved because it could just be someone asking a question about something as simple as clothing or the tent or where something was or wasn't and not necessarily a premise built on evidence.

[Star man]

Well, the lack of analysis of the foot prints, and the cuts in the tent near the entrance through the seams have been a problem for me for a while now.  This line of thinking makes it clear why. 

Also, why Yuri D would be climbing a tree with severe frost bite on hands and feet.  Why they were burnt - it doesn't make sense if they were either alive or dead.  If they were alive why would they allow their skin to burn like that, and if they died before the fire did, why did they die?  The flashlight on the 10cm of snow at the tent, the tidy nature of the tent - given the impression that they cut their way out in a panic.

Ok.  So if we cant rely on the evidence at the scene.  How do we figure out what really happened to them?  Solter's statement.  The bodies were very dirty, washed, prepared for burial ( with no relatives to formerly identify them and no autopsy) - odd.  11 bodies overall - odd.  Were the bodies, cleaned, possibly decontaminated, and then air lifted back to Kholat Syakhl for placement?  11 bodies?  Did Solter see two of the same bodies twice, at different times?  First in Feb, when they were prepped, and then in March when they were found again?  Lyuda - burned hair and face, Semyon?  Authorities need to make some changes to their appearance and then place them somewhere where they would decompose.  Missing eyes, tongue?  Chest injuries -  they were thrown by a wind blast, or accidentally dropped from a helicopter when being air lifted back? 

The tent - did the hikers actually  cut it?  Was it shredded by debris from something and made to look like it was cut.  Could there have been an incident that threw up a major amount of dirt, mud, or caused a landslide onto the tent?   Possible chemical weapon - chlorine, heavier than air so hugs the ground, will burn eyes and mucous membranes, - no toxicology report.  Might induce them to cut and tear themselves out of the tent.  Chlorine -  oxidising agent, poison, skin colour?  Oxidised skin may make them look dirty.  Yuri D lungs, grey fluid.  Chlorine causes fluid in the lungs, so you kind of drown.  Nitrogen dioxide would fo the same.  The tent - is there a record somewhere about its recovery and cleaning, prepping it to set back up on Kholat?

If you can't make the hikers disappear, you can always make the scene dissappear instead

Lots and lots of questions.  Needs further thought to piecei t together. 

Regards

Star man

Ok.  Lets continue with this line of thought.

To understand what happened to the hikers, we need to filter out the facts that cannot be faked so easily or  covered up.  If they couldn't or didn't want to make the hikers disappear, you make the scene disappear.  So that leaves the hikers - the bodies - the injuries.  Lets split the hikers into two groups.  Those with significant injuries and those with superficial injuries.  Who has the significant injuries?  - The rav 4 - convenient.  If the scene is faked, then Kolevatov, is not hugging Semyon.  Kolevatov - he didn't die last - he died first.  He was thrown by some kind of wind blast.  He landed awkwardly - deformed neck - spinal damage - severed spinal cord - cut signal through vegus nerve.  He dies almost instantly.  He didn't die of hypothermia - no frost bite.  Lyuda and Thibo are next.  Difficult to say which.  Both are thrown.  Semyon is next, he is thrown.  Maybe these were outside the tent sitting or standing when it happened?  The remaining 5 survive the initial wind blast.  Chemical weapon - NO.  Chlorine gas - NO.  Chemical weapon unlikely to create a large wind blast.  Chlorine would bleach skin and hair.  Would have distinct smell like bleach.  What else?  "Very very dirty" -Zina's grubby oily looking hands - localised burns to skin and hair - wind blast- flame front - pressure wave- no eye brows, no eyes.  Couldn't be high explosives.  Would be localised, closer - disingrating bodies.  Very very dirty - finger tips and finger nails look ok -  they weren't buried -  SMOKE -  oily sooty, not fully combusted smoke - smoke inhalation -  Yuri D grey foam.  Large fire ball, wind blast and pressure wave - oily sooty smoke - - -  thermobaric device -  Fuel air bomb?  Uses up all oxygen?  Possibly would fit.  Military test gone wrong?  Accident?  Strontium 90 used as tracer?

The remaining 5 live longer than the rav 4.  Were they lying in the tent?  The tent must have been damaged -  did the side that faced the flame front catch fire?  The other side survived?  Shredded by debris?  Was the Kholat tent a different tent altogether?  Its difficult to say.  Wzs the tent even set up, or still packed when it happened?

Yuri D significant frost bite.  Yuri K had frost bite too.  Were they trying to survive without the tent?  Died of frost bite, hypothermia and smoke inhalation.  Inhalation of unburned toxic FAB fuel?  They must have survived for a while to get the frost bite. Could they have survived with their outer clothing and no tent?
 Dyatlov, Zina and Rustem - Rustem may have been knocked about in the wind blast - both temporal lobes?  Odd?  Did the survivors fight?    Could they see.?  Were they blinded by the unburned chemicals and smoke?  Ah blinded -  couldn't find or use their gear and clothing?  That would be desperate.  Geese.  If that's what happened - poor guys.

Other options -  nuclear?  Possible.  Would still generate fire ball, wind blast and oily dirty rainy fallout.  Plus radioactive contamination.  Think FAB is probably more likely.  Anything else?  Where did it happen?  When did it happen?  Lots more questions.

Regards

Star man

Another option is a crashed missile of some kind - hits the ground, and fuel explodes creating a fire ball, wind blast and lots of oily smoke.  Some burning  fuel is thrown onto the hikers - as per Nigel's theory.  Yuri K's burned leg, burned clothing (later removed and replaced) and hair. 

If we assume that those with the most superficial injuries and frost bite survived the longest, then it would mean that the two Yuris would have lived the longest.  Did Zina, Dyatlov and Rustem die relatively quickly?  None of them have significant frost bite.  Could they have died from internal injuries from the blast, or toxic substances inhaled.  Thermovaric bomb uses ethylene oxide which is toxic, narcotic and anaesthetic.  Could they have been deliberately targeted?  A thermobaric grenade might have the same effect?  Its less likely to destroy the tent completely?  Seems unlikely to me as the two Yuris appear to have survived long enough to get severe frost bite.

Air mines? 

Looks like it was some kind of explosion.  Takes out the rav4 all in one go.  Thermobaric device still fits better.  Oily smoke and toxic aftermath.

Where did it happen?  If not on Kholat then most likely on the planned route somewhere.  Before the 6th Feb.  Before they made the labaz?

Regards

Star man

Well we have been down this road a few times. Explosion big enough to do what it did would almost certainly leave traces. That means Evidence of explosion. There is no Evidence of explosion. So next step means if that theory is correct there must have been a cover up. But accidents happened a lot in the USSR, so why cover up ! ? Also those injuries to some of the Dyatlov Group do not look like injuries gained from an explosion.

Its still speculation without evidence DB. Always has been.  I for one don't have evidence to underpin it.  I have some ideas on how to narrow down the - where and when, but I am going to stop now.  And listen.

If Teddy finaly brings an end to the mystery then I hope the 9 hikers can finally rest in piece and it brings closure to any remaining relatives and friends.

Maybe Teddy will have to find another great mystery to solve?

Regards

Star man

Well Iam not stopping. I will carry on in this Forum for as long as there is something to discuss, and for as long as Teddy wants to continue with it.

I didn't mean that I am stopping from any further discusdion.  I have followed this line through in my head and have my ideas.  But , I am going to wait to see what is presented in the new book.

Regards

Star man

[sarapuk]

I'm impressed by the bigger picture. This is the 50s , women allowed education, to join men in physical , hard physical adventures, treated like equals . Quite fascinating compared to the west. Just an observation.

It is so interesting to see and read their joy of music or understanding of the different cultures in Russia. They spoke of love, music and passion . The photos all show smiles and adventure. I find that so interesting because of my bigotry of how the USSR was. I was wrong....

Well I must confess that I have learnt a lot since being involved in this Forum. And I also confess to having had Communist friends and colleagues from the days of the USSR. Not that the use of the word confess is implying Iam guilty of anything. Its just that as Karl Marx said over a hundred years ago ; ''A specter is haunting Europe—the specter of Communism.''