Skull fractures

[Dona]

Three  of them had head injuries.. 2 fractures, both at the temple and Georgy had  head injury to the back of his head..

Did they  fall? Nope. How do 2 people fall and injure them same place. the temple.. and how  do you fall and hit the temple area, twice. And Did Georgy fall backwards and hit his head on a rock too? So 3 people fell and hit their heads?  Wouldn't the injury from a fall be on your face, forehead... cheek? Did they both turn their heads just at the right moment to hit their temple? Nooooo And why do they only hit their heads on rocks.. did a third of them fall and hit their heads..  You wouldnt have that head injury rate over their lifetimes.. let alone in and hour or two. Take 9 of your family members.. How many died from a skull fracture? None..

This is looking more like an attack..a tree fall  or something..

[Teddy]

a tree fall  or something..

This is the theory in "1079" book.

[Dona]

I know :) Its looking more believable..

[Игорь Б.]

Thibeaux's head was crushed against this rock in the ravine:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=61647
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=88138

Slobodin's frontal bone cracking is postmortem.
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=d0b5b5fb2079b353f3bf128914e5a264&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=90633

[MDGross]

They were mostly walking in stocking feet in complete darkness down a rock-strewn slope. It was negative 20 degrees with the wind blowing hard enough to topple trees. Under those conditions, who knows what injuries could occur. Cracked skulls on the sides of heads are not out of the question. Thibeaux-Brignolle's injury could have occurred in a fall into the ravine.

[Dona]

You think the fell in a row.. side by side.. neatly?

[Dona]

If they fell down a slope.. really? They would have arm fractures.. not head fractures... on their temples.. both of them.. Georgy had a head injury  too? Did he fall backwards?

[trekker]

Low velocity (2 m/s) snow slab would be plausible explanation. In this study 10 kg rigid block 7 m/s velocity to human thorax with restrained back is already lethal, so tree falling is not plausible.



https://www.nature.com/articles/s43247-020-00081-8

[Dona]

Looks like Georgy was also hit in the temple area.

What are the odds?? A million to one?

[Dona]

Low velocity (2 m/s) snow slab would be plausible explanation. In this study 10 kg rigid block 7 m/s velocity to human thorax with restrained back is already lethal, so tree falling is not plausible.



https://www.nature.com/articles/s43247-020-00081-8

Is that the ravine or tent area?

[RMK]

Low velocity (2 m/s) snow slab would be plausible explanation. In this study 10 kg rigid block 7 m/s velocity to human thorax with restrained back is already lethal, so tree falling is not plausible.



https://www.nature.com/articles/s43247-020-00081-8

Is that the ravine or tent area?

The linked article proposes it happened at the site of the tent.

[Dona]

I thought that was resolved..as no evidence .. they never considered it at the time.

[Manti]

I know I have posted before saying their injuries are not typical of an avalanche. Guess what, I've been reading more about this topic. Skull and chest trauma including serious trauma are the most common injuries in avalanches. Not the most common cause of death though (that's asphyxiation).


If the avalanche was at the tent, still doesn't explain how they got to the ravine. If the avalanche was at the ravine.... which I think fits the case better, then abandoning the tent is not explained.

I still don't really understand camping on the slope and especially "cutting" the snow to achieve a level platform. They must have known better. It makes absolutely no sense to set up the tent like that under any circumstances, let alone when the forest is so close.But then again I also have a hard time digesting the "staging" scenarios due to lack of motive. So that's an impasse..

[sarapuk]

Three  of them had head injuries.. 2 fractures, both at the temple and Georgy had  head injury to the back of his head..

Did they  fall? Nope. How do 2 people fall and injure them same place. the temple.. and how  do you fall and hit the temple area, twice. And Did Georgy fall backwards and hit his head on a rock too? So 3 people fell and hit their heads?  Wouldn't the injury from a fall be on your face, forehead... cheek? Did they both turn their heads just at the right moment to hit their temple? Nooooo And why do they only hit their heads on rocks.. did a third of them fall and hit their heads..  You wouldnt have that head injury rate over their lifetimes.. let alone in and hour or two. Take 9 of your family members.. How many died from a skull fracture? None..

This is looking more like an attack..a tree fall  or something..

I will go with, something. By the way, a Bear could inflict all of the injuries that we have seen. Crushed bodies, Skulls broken, Scratch marks etc etc. The only thing that I would be questioning is the Missing Eyes and Tongue.

[Dona]

I know I have posted before saying their injuries are not typical of an avalanche. Guess what, I've been reading more about this topic. Skull and chest trauma including serious trauma are the most common injuries in avalanches. Not the most common cause of death though (that's asphyxiation).


If the avalanche was at the tent, still doesn't explain how they got to the ravine. If the avalanche was at the ravine.... which I think fits the case better, then abandoning the tent is not explained.

I still don't really understand camping on the slope and especially "cutting" the snow to achieve a level platform. They must have known better. It makes absolutely no sense to set up the tent like that under any circumstances, let alone when the forest is so close.But then again I also have a hard time digesting the "staging" scenarios due to lack of motive. So that's an impasse..

The trouble with avalanche theory is the tent was still standing and nothing inside was crushed..

[Dona]

I really dont think the eyes and tongue have any meaning here..

[Manti]

The trouble with avalanche theory is the tent was still standing and nothing inside was crushed..

Ok but what about an avalanche at the ravine? Maybe they, Semyon, Lyuda, Thibo, and Kolevatov realised they are in the wrong valley, and have to cross the ridge to get to the labaz. But while trying to ascend they trigger a small avalanche not having gotten very far from the cedar and they end up buried under snow in the lowest local point, the ravine.

Why they left the tent is another matter...

[Dona]

I dont see how they all got just one-single-injury from that tho.. Where is the crushed pelvis, dislocated shoulder.. broken pinky toe.. How do you get crushed  and only have one injury..

[marieuk]

If Lyuda was estimated to have lived for up to 20 minutes after her injuries, wouldn't that make the snow slab with the most common cause of death being asphyxiation less likely? Sorry, I don't know all the details of their injuries, so just asking the question. 

[Dona]

Good point! If they were crushed by a snow collapse, they would have asphyxiated in minutes,, I wonder if they even check for that.. Then I dont  know if they can cuz everyone who is dead is asphyxiated :)

[Manti]

If Lyuda was estimated to have lived for up to 20 minutes after her injuries, wouldn't that make the snow slab with the most common cause of death being asphyxiation less likely?

"... In these cases, the median duration of burial was 25 minutes (interquartile range 10–56 minutes) for trauma victims and 45 minutes (interquartile range 20–231 minutes) for asphyxia victims (p = 0.009). The depth of burial also differed significantly for trauma and asphyxia victims (median 90 cm [interquartile range 30–120 cm] v. 150 cm [interquartile range 100–200 cm]; p < 0.001)..."

This is from https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2645441/. Apparently asphyxia under snow takes time.

[marieuk]

Well thank you very much for the link.  I had no idea it could take 45 minutes to asphyxiate.  Interesting that the main injuries associated with avalanches are head, chest and neck.  You learn something every day. 

[trekker]

The trouble with avalanche theory is the tent was still standing and nothing inside was crushed..

The trouble for me is there was no Ming Vases or nothing else breakable in the tent.

[Ziljoe]

The trouble with avalanche theory is the tent was still standing and nothing inside was crushed..

The trouble for me is there was no Ming Vases or nothing else breakable in the tent.

 

[Dona]

There were crackers and bread out.. left intact.. A cup of  some kind of drink.. still intact..

Try again!

[trekker]

... left intact.. A cup of  some kind of drink.. still intact..

How You can be sure that crackers or drink should be crushed?

[Dona]

Uhmmm 23 fractured ribs?

[trekker]

Uhmmm 23 fractured ribs?

Do we have proof of uncrushed crackers or drinks in the tent?

Even on slab avalanche we cannot be sure that every cracker or drink bottle will break down. So, Your assumption doesn't prove anything.

[Dona]

I doubt it.

[sarapuk]

I really dont think the eyes and tongue have any meaning here..

On the contrary. The Eyes and Tongue belong to the Head part of the Human body.