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Author Topic: The footprints, the footprints ...  (Read 3303 times)

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May 06, 2021, 11:28:01 AM
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Earthland


I'm a novice and haven't looked through all the materials. From the outset, what struck me as most telling was that "footprints left by the group everyone seemed to descent with relative ease." It struck me, because from a psychological point of view, cutting the tent from inside and leaving it without proper clothes, and then strolling away with relative ease, are completely at odds with each other.

What does the "relative ease" mean exactly, and how can one deduce it from the footsteps? Does it mean that no-one had trouble with walking - ie, no-one was badly injured - or does it mean that there was no rushing away in panic, as if they were just talking a walk in a park?

If the latter is really true (and not only seemingly so, let's say, because the weather conditions were such that it was impossible to move in a different manner), that really leaves only two options in my view. Someone either forced them to leave and kept them under gunpoint, or there was some sort of group lunacy taking place.
 

May 06, 2021, 12:32:48 PM
Reply #1
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KFinn


Welcome to the forum!!

The footprints are largely interpreted as showing a controlled descent; they don't appear to be running or rushing, no one appeared injured or incapacitated to the point of dragging their legs or limping.  Although there are some hand prints believed to be seen in the photos, there didn't seem to be a lot of stumbling or falling in the area where the footprints were present. 

The fact that a controlled descent is at odds with a panicked exit from the tent is a key part of the mystery.  There are those who question whether the tent was cut by the Dyatlov group, whether they were forced down the ridge by others, whether they were under the influence of intended or unintended substances. 

Welcome to the Dyatlov incident!!!  I hope that you are able to find answers or, at the vey least, find valuable discussion!!
-Ren
 

May 07, 2021, 12:55:23 AM
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Teddy

Administrator
Welcome to the forum.
The footprints are very easy to explain if they are not left by Dyatlov group.
I have requested professional opinion (I paid for it dearly) from an independent forensic expert whose sworn conclusion is that the footprints are left by shod feet (wearing shoes).
His expert opinion is 20 something pages long. Here is the gist: https://dyatlovpass.com/1079#chapter23

P.S. Assoc. Prof. Dr. Lyudmil Georgiev is forensic expert traceologist who knows nothing about Dyatlov case.
 

May 07, 2021, 01:59:05 PM
Reply #3
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Investigator


Here is an old post of mine:

"These incidents are not uncommon.  One guy wrote a series of books on the subject ("Missing 411," though "Off the Wall: Death in Yosemite" was better).  Have you read about the Chivrauy incident  (about a dozen years later)?  To me that is an example of even worse decision-making in a similar situation.  The Dyatlov tent began to collapse (probably due to ice/heavy snow buildup), or they though it would collapse, so they cut themselves out, secured the tent so it wouldn't blow away (along with all their stuff), and calmly walked down to the tree line, thinking they could survive with a fire (the fire in fact was said to be quite robust, lasting an hour or two).  One interesting question is if the idea of digging the "den" was the original plan or some sort of secondary one (the two guys who were dressed fairly well could have dug the den while the others started and got warmed up by the fire).  The problem is that when you do a lot of work in the cold (with minimal clothing), then stop to warm up, you're going to do a lot of sweating, and then if your heat source can't be maintained or isn't sufficient, you are in deep trouble!"
 
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September 03, 2022, 03:01:48 AM
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neni_cesty_zpet


Thanks to Teddy and traceologist, Dr. Lyudmil Georgiev, we know that traces were made with shod feet (wearing shoes).
There is no indication for hurry descent.

If they were camping on slope and not staying there for long time than I'd expect traces of similar appearance going up, made by the Dyatlov group.
Could they be overlooked on crime scene?  dunno1

This looks like properly clothed persons were dropped off by a single helicopter for whatever reason and walk down in normal pace.
 
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September 03, 2022, 01:37:36 PM
Reply #5
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GlennM


If a conspiracy, where are the shod prints leading to, not from the tent? Secondly, you don't leave incriminating evidence. In this case, easily found corpses. Out in the middle of nowhere with no one around, who wouldn't hide the bodies? Admittedly, they need to be dead first. They were found in places that suggest their deaths were not planned, nor done methodically.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2022, 07:01:04 PM by GlennM »
 
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September 07, 2022, 01:15:58 PM
Reply #6
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neni_cesty_zpet


Is it possible that footprints were made by early rescue group (wearing boots)?
Deployed by helicopter and going dont to find the missing tourists?

Most of Dyatlov group members 'forgot' their boots in the tent....It's damn puzzle.....and critical evidence, THE TENT is lost forever and cannot be reexaminated anymore  in more detail with modern methods bang1

Staging the tent on slope without taking the risk of being witnessed? Fastest way is to deploy by helicopter and leave the place - no footprints at all with some care.
Why going down on foot and leaving other traces?

One thing is probably sure, the footprints were not made by Dyatlov group or their were, but someone wearing boots were following them, stepping over them.
But where are footprints of any people going uphill ??  dunno1
 

September 07, 2022, 11:22:10 PM
Reply #7
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GlennM


To me what makes sense is the hikers skied to the tent site on 1079, set up camp and experienced a slab slip. They walked to the forest but underestimated both the distance and their personal stamina. When I think of footprints in snow, I remember how prints in the Himalayas were supposed to be Yeti  but were not. Were boot prints found in the snow? Certainly, if that's what you want them to be. Indeed, if they are boot prints, should there not be a collection of similar prints all around the tent, not just materializing out of nowhere and heading down hill?

The rescuers followed no ski tracks to the tent on 1079, yet they later on follow prints said to first scatter from the tent, regroup and proceed in an orderly way downslope. That is until the prints were obscured by snowdrift. Tenuous evidence at best, I think.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2022, 11:42:40 AM by GlennM »
 

September 13, 2022, 08:45:46 AM
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Manti


To me what makes sense is the hikers skied to the tent site on 1079, set up camp and experienced a slab slip. They walked to the forest but underestimated both the distance and their personal stamina. When I think of footprints in snow, I remember how prints in the Himalayas were supposed to be Yeti  but were not. Were boot prints found in the snow? Certainly, if that's what you want them to be. Indeed, if they are boot prints, should there not be a collection of similar prints all around the tent, not just materializing out of nowhere and heading down hill?

The rescuers followed no ski tracks to the tent on 1079, yet they later on follow prints said to first scatter from the tent, regroup and proceed in an orderly way downslope. That is until the prints were obscured by snowdrift. Tenuous evidence at best, I think.

I mostly agree with this but think that no slab slip is required. Instead, they left the tent for some other reason. Among the many other corcumstances that seem to rule it out, there's one less often mentioned: there is no slab or piece of snow missing from above the tent. In fact the snow cover seems intact and we do have the benefit of some high quality contemporary photographs showing it.

Their planned route: 217 miles in 15 days. That's 14 miles a day.
On their last day, they covered 1.5 miles. Why?
 

September 13, 2022, 09:52:52 PM
Reply #9
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GlennM


Manti, I thought the discovery of the tent photo showed the tent and immediate area covered in block ice. Does that not suggest a slab slide? If you have better imagery, please post that in your response. Appreciated.

I believe when the Soviet authorities reopened the investigation recently, they were under scrutiny internationally. I believe their conclusion of a slab slip had to be based on good evidence, else they would have been roundly condemned as poseurs.

If we look at the tragedy at face value, we see a team of hikers who took an arduous uphill ski hike in order to avoid weaving through trees in the woods because there was no trail to follow. Therefore, they used line of sight to Otorten. Keeping to the high ground makes tactical sense. They elected to do a cold camp for a night because carrying firewood was extra weight and wet. The best practice would be to level the tent and dig a ledge as a windbreak. This they did. Then at some point in time, the ledge collapsed. They could not remain there and fled to the forest overnight. We all know what followed. To me, it seems that big question is why they left the tent, It was crushed. Let's see those photos and chat about this a bit more.
 
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September 14, 2022, 03:56:32 AM
Reply #10

Charles

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« Last Edit: December 15, 2022, 08:43:40 PM by Charles »
 

September 14, 2022, 09:14:02 AM
Reply #11
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neni_cesty_zpet


The photo shows entrance blocked with packed snow. Doing several cuts to tent is difficult to understand for me....One escape cut is much easier to repair later, after all,
I they were prepared to repair tent on trips.

Slow descent was possibly an effort to not cause additional slides. Where were the tourists injured? In the tent? Lyuda's died 10-20 minutes after sustaining the injury,
unable to make such long walk...
It's possible that they were doing something near the cedar, freezing, limbs getting numb and someone/something fell onto them. After all, some branches were found broken to some height...

If there were some evidence of foul play in tent's fabric, they would not let UPI keep it for long years, possibly doing some research on their own, independently of
official examination....

If avalanche was the initial accident then there was also later a second one that was fatal. That's my opinion.

 
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September 14, 2022, 09:53:49 AM
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Игорь Б.


Пятна Вишневского и отогретые обморожения 3-4 степени говорят о том, что первая пятёрка после ухода из палатки с 13 до 15 часов дня (время происшествия) замерзала несколько часов. За эти несколько часов сильно похолодало - прошёл холодный атмосферный фронт. В Бурмантово в 19 часов уже было -10 градусов. На перевале похолодало ещё на несколько часов раньше. Потому что атмосферный фронт двигался от перевала к Бурмантово (75 км.) со скоростью 20-30 км/час.

Другие люди после смерти дятловцев, а значит после похолодания могли оставить следы уже только из спрессованного, но не подтаявшего и обледеневшего снега, которые раздуло бы за день-два (доказано в зимней экспедиции 2013 года):
Quote
На этом фото - следы, которые оставили мы по прилете на перевал. Прошлись по снежному насту. В унтах. А через два дня обнаружили на этом же месте до боли знакомые столбики. Их выдул ветер. Температура в те дни была от минус 28 до минус 12. Теперь мы точно знаем, такие следы могут образоваться при низких температурах, и не важно, какие это отпечатки - обуви или босых ног. Но уже через день следы исчезли под действием вьюги. Как могли почти месяц сохраняться следовые столбики от ног дятловцев на склоне горы, где беспрестанно пурга и ветер?

https://www.kp.ru/daily/26054/2965513/

Это и является доказательством того, что обледеневшие следы-столбики, какими бы они ни были, могли оставить только дятловцы в период потепления перед холодным атмосферным фронтом.
An example of the impact of chemical weapons of a skunk (wolverine) in a tent:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=117054
 

September 15, 2022, 04:12:57 PM
Reply #13
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Ziljoe


Hi Charles,

I think the photo of the tent you have shown is after the discovery of it. Some of what we see is not how it was found. No two snow slides/, slips are the same and it would depend on the context . If it was a slow slide of snow perceived as more snow to follow.

 

September 15, 2022, 05:16:54 PM
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GlennM


Help me out here. When I look at the picture of the rescuers discovery of the tent, I see two vertical skis.  My immediate interpretation is that the tent was suspended between them. So the question becomes,"How could those things stay upright when the snow covered the tent from a sideways snow slide?" They should have been pushed over and flattened. Then, I look again. For the life of me I think I see the right hand ski set in the snow behind the tent!  Do you see that too? I have a very different idea about what those skis represent. Your thoughts please.
 

September 15, 2022, 10:17:20 PM
Reply #15
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Ziljoe


Hi GlennM

There is discussion on a previous thread regarding the tent, ski's and who is in the photo. If I remember correctly , this is a day or so after its discovery. Ski's , along with the ice axe were used to move snow off the tent. The snow was reported to be firn in its nature. There was debate if these skis were the searchers or of they had been moved at that point.
 

September 16, 2022, 03:47:51 AM
Reply #16

Charles

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« Last Edit: December 15, 2022, 08:43:56 PM by Charles »
 
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September 16, 2022, 03:05:30 PM
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Ziljoe


Thanks Charles,

There is a long discussion abut the photos of the tent.
 
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September 16, 2022, 09:27:09 PM
Reply #18
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GlennM


Charles and Ziljoe,

Charles, you are appreciated.  Your answer certainly clarifies the matter of the placement of the skis. Too, the description of the interior of the tent does not suggest to me that there was chaos.,I would expect that if a slab slip crushed the tent, that the hikers would have been climbing over each other and grabbing gear before getting out of the tent. The description of the interior of the tent certainly could lead one to suppose the whole thing was an elaborate set piece. The problem with that is if conspirators were trying to obfuscate the truth, they would have cluttered the tent so as to make it believable.

I can accept the rescuers knifed their way into the tent. I can accept the hikers knifed their way out of the tent.

When found, the rescuers observed packed snow on the tent that required excavation.  For me, a slab slip at night coupled with the hikers misjudging the distance to the woods still makes more sense than some coverup, vendetta or random terrorism perpetrated on kids out in the woods. Will we ever know?
 

September 17, 2022, 12:59:58 AM
Reply #19

Charles

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« Last Edit: December 15, 2022, 08:44:08 PM by Charles »
 

September 17, 2022, 02:13:33 AM
Reply #20

Charles

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« Last Edit: December 15, 2022, 08:44:19 PM by Charles »
 

September 17, 2022, 09:37:02 AM
Reply #21
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Ziljoe


Charles, how do we know that a hiker exited the tent with an ice ax? To me, it would be logical to leave the ice ax out side the tent at the entrance .
 

September 17, 2022, 09:57:46 AM
Reply #22

Charles

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« Last Edit: December 15, 2022, 08:44:30 PM by Charles »
 

September 17, 2022, 10:15:39 AM
Reply #23

Charles

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« Last Edit: December 15, 2022, 08:44:40 PM by Charles »
 

September 17, 2022, 10:25:06 AM
Reply #24

Charles

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« Last Edit: December 15, 2022, 08:44:49 PM by Charles »
 

September 17, 2022, 10:42:43 AM
Reply #25
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Ziljoe


Thanks Charles, I was aware of the ice axe in the photos. I think it shows up on one of the photos of them on the lorry/bus too.

I have an ice axe of my late father's which is the onger type.( Just like your reference photos)  I would guess it is the long version due to the type of trek they were doing. The shorter ones are used more for climbing, a hammer head for putting in climbing attachments and the spike for climbing/ digging foot steps.

Just my opinion, however , you have sent me on an interesting journey .
 

September 17, 2022, 10:56:01 AM
Reply #26

Charles

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« Last Edit: December 15, 2022, 08:45:00 PM by Charles »
 

September 17, 2022, 11:10:11 AM
Reply #27
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Ziljoe


Charles,

It could be, difficult to tell but this photo was taken the day after Sharavin found the tent and used the ax to enter the tent?

It might be the lower side of the tent canvas but the shadows certainly make it look like it's raised and the profile is similar to an ice ax.
 

September 17, 2022, 11:12:42 AM
Reply #28

Charles

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« Last Edit: December 15, 2022, 08:45:09 PM by Charles »
 

September 17, 2022, 11:14:30 AM
Reply #29

Charles

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« Last Edit: December 15, 2022, 08:45:18 PM by Charles »