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General Discussion / Re: Is there evidence for outsiders?

« Last post by Ziljoe on May 15, 2024, 08:30:48 AM »

We struggle with this case, but I am told that perhaps half of murders go unsolved. In fact, there is such a thing as a misdemeanor murder, a case so old and lacking in evidence that it is useless to keep it active. I do not think the DP9 were murdered, far from it, but a break in a cold case seems to come from using improved technology with old clues. Agaun, Teddy et.al. are using forensic methods not employed in 1959. This is to her credit.

An identified fault in trying to solve mysteries is one of forming a hypothesis too soon and force fitting facts to it ( eg. I know he did the crime and now I will prove it). The other approach is to gather the evidence and then generate an hypothesize.  You, Ziljoe, are astute in your open minded and even handed assessment of the evidence, but I think we agree that unless there is a breakthrough owing to discovery or refined technology, the investigation stalls out just like many, many unsolved mysteries.

At the heart of it is the issue of why they left the tent. Can technology ever address that question?  No, we just need a better way of inspecting the bread crumbs the case gives us.

I totally agree Glennm with your thoughts .

I can only try and look for evidence in nature because there is very little evidence of direct involvement by outsiders. I try to find evidence of outsiders within the documents and photos etc.

I continue to read the notes against the formal case notes and on the whole we can observe the frustration and potential blame towards those in charge of the hike at the UPI not following proper guidelines. This seems to include the failure to have proper documentation of the route and the proper contact date of the return arrival with any contingency plans. It seems there's a disbelief by the investigators of the sloppy approach by the UPI to signing off these hikes.

Teddy's approach gives us some tangible evidence , we can't dismiss a fallen tree and tree rings....

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General Discussion / Re: Is there evidence for outsiders?

« Last post by GlennM on May 15, 2024, 07:05:40 AM »

We struggle with this case, but I am told that perhaps half of murders go unsolved. In fact, there is such a thing as a misdemeanor murder, a case so old and lacking in evidence that it is useless to keep it active. I do not think the DP9 were murdered, far from it, but a break in a cold case seems to come from using improved technology with old clues. Agaun, Teddy et.al. are using forensic methods not employed in 1959. This is to her credit.

An identified fault in trying to solve mysteries is one of forming a hypothesis too soon and force fitting facts to it ( eg. I know he did the crime and now I will prove it). The other approach is to gather the evidence and then generate an hypothesize.  You, Ziljoe, are astute in your open minded and even handed assessment of the evidence, but I think we agree that unless there is a breakthrough owing to discovery or refined technology, the investigation stalls out just like many, many unsolved mysteries.

At the heart of it is the issue of why they left the tent. Can technology ever address that question?  No, we just need a better way of inspecting the bread crumbs the case gives us.

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General Discussion / Re: Is there evidence for outsiders?

« Last post by Ziljoe on May 15, 2024, 06:09:21 AM »

"The reason could be some extraordinary natural phenomenon or the passage of meteorological intercepts, which Ivdel saw on February 1 and on February 17, saw Karelin’s group."

So, with only an ice axe and flashlight outside the tent ( which I assume were used for night time bowel and bladder needs) , the rescuers make the assumption that it was not human or animal intrusion which caused the DP9 to leave the tent.

Again, thinking of Tunguska, the forest, except for one identified fallen tree was not reported as unusual. It brings me back to a slab slide, but surely that would bury the flashlight and ice axe. Sigh!

In case files and the notes, they speculate about many reasons to why they left the tent, including, animals, Mansi, winds etc. What you read above is just a snap shot of recorded notes.

The axe and flashlight may have been buried but new winds may have eroded any sign of a snow slab/ slide. I would suspect the snow level on the slope would have gone up and down several times over the 3 weeks , like waves in the sea .

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General Discussion / Re: Is there evidence for outsiders?

« Last post by Teddy on May 14, 2024, 11:50:22 PM »

we don’t object to you today, make the most appropriate decisions on your own, ask for property, food will be sent to you from the storehouse after drawing up an inventory, use it for food against the evacuation of Borisov, we don’t object to the angry ones. What is the reason for sending Blinova ? The need to send Blinova. In case of clearly bad weather, continue the search with the whole group. bye the whole group . We'll send a telegram to your wife now. Specify the coordinates of the warehouse =Commission=

Serdityh is a name that Google translates like angry.
See the correct translation here:
https://dyatlovpass.com/maslennikov-notebook-2#13

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General Discussion / Re: Is there evidence for outsiders?

« Last post by GlennM on May 14, 2024, 10:41:34 PM »

"The reason could be some extraordinary natural phenomenon or the passage of meteorological intercepts, which Ivdel saw on February 1 and on February 17, saw Karelin’s group."

So, with only an ice axe and flashlight outside the tent ( which I assume were used for night time bowel and bladder needs) , the rescuers make the assumption that it was not human or animal intrusion which caused the DP9 to leave the tent.

Again, thinking of Tunguska, the forest, except for one identified fallen tree was not reported as unusual. It brings me back to a slab slide, but surely that would bury the flashlight and ice axe. Sigh!

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General Discussion / Re: Is there evidence for outsiders?

« Last post by Ziljoe on May 14, 2024, 05:34:55 PM »

Slightly different translation.

"Moving precisely from the place of the last discovered overnight stay with a storage shed to the pass in bad weather, the Dyatlov group could well have mistaken the ridge of the spur of Mountain 1079 for the pass to Lozva. But the main mystery of the tragedy remains the exit of the entire group from the tent. The only thing other than an ice ax found outside the tent - a Chinese lantern on its roof - confirms the likelihood of one clothed person going outside, which gave some reason for everyone else to hastily abandon the tent. The reason could be some extraordinary natural phenomenon or the passage of a meteorological rocket, which was seen in Ivdele on February 1 and seen by Karelin’s group on February 17. Tomorrow we will continue the search together with new forces and send the planned cargo.

Scan 11

Questions: Minor messages

1. The group of Chernyshev and Sidorov unanimously ask to leave the latter here.

2. Candles required, five left.

3. Tomorrow morning we are sending Kurikov’s group back, I gave them a certificate of their work.

4. Give a telegram on my behalf Sverdlovsk, Pervomaiskaya 104 Energochermet

Scan 12

24 b. (note: receipt-free method) 16'=

Maslennikov =

Tomorrow the weather in your area is expected to improve and after reconnaissance of the area by plane it has been decided to send you two helicopters at the same time which will make two flights each, 8 sappers with mine detectors and a group of fighters of ten people under the leadership of an officer, by decision of the commission, the overall leadership of the search remains with you for now, your deputy has been appointed a captain Chernyshev. The regional party committee has given instructions to the plant director to consider you on a business trip. Against the proposed evacuation order

Scan 13

we don’t object to you today, make the most appropriate decisions on your own, ask for property, food will be sent to you from the storehouse after drawing up an inventory, use it for food against the evacuation of Borisov, we don’t object to the angry ones. What is the reason for sending Blinova ? The need to send Blinova. In case of clearly bad weather, continue the search with the whole group. bye the whole group . We'll send a telegram to your wife now. Specify the coordinates of the warehouse =Commission=

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General Discussion / Re: Is there evidence for outsiders?

« Last post by Ziljoe on May 14, 2024, 05:29:45 PM »

Thanks Glenn. It wasn't the exact quote.

It's here.

Moving from the place of the last discovered overnight stay from the storage to the pass in bad weather Dyatlovets Dyatlov's group could easily have taken the ridge of height 1079 for the pass to Lozva. But the main mystery of the tragedy remains the exit of the whole group from the tent. The only thing besides an ice ax found outside the tent — a Chinese flashlight on the roof — confirms the likelihood that one dressed person would come outside, which gave some reason for everyone else to hastily throw the tent. The reason could be some extraordinary natural phenomenon or the passage of meteorological intercepts, which Ivdel saw on February 1 and on February 17, saw Karelin’s group. Tomorrow we will continue to search together with new forces and ship the planned cargo.

Scan 11

Questions: Small messages

1. Chernyshev's group and Sidorov both are asking to leave the latterhere.

2. Need candles, five pieces left.

3. Tomorrow morning, we are sending Kurikov’s group back, giving them reference for their work.

4. Send telegram on my behalf to Sverdlovsk, Pervomayskaya 104 Energochermet

Scan 12

24 u. (unquoted - ed. note) 16'=

To Maslennikov=

tomorrow, in your area weather is expected to improve and decided to send two helicopters to you at the same time after reconnaissance of the area and they will drop off 8 sappers with mine detectors and a group of ten men headed by an officer while you remain the leader of the search your deputy is appointed captain Chernyshev. by the general party the instructions given to the plant manager to consider you on a business trip. Against the evacuation procedure proposed

Scan 13

by you today we do not object make the most expedient decisions independently requested products will be sent to you use food from the cache after the inventory nothing against the evacuation of Borisov Serdityh why send Blinov is necessary to send Blinov back. we clearly don't have flying weather continue the search for the whole group untill the whole group. We will send a telegram to your wife now. Send the coordinates of the cache = Commission =

09     1000     130 Moscow time to give only weather on the airfield in the absence of Maslennikov these sessions are not mandatory, and with me at 1300 main control session at 1600 rc. (reverse check - ed. note)

5) Please call me to report and resolve issues with leadership of the detachment.

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General Discussion / Re: Is there evidence for outsiders?

« Last post by GlennM on May 14, 2024, 05:07:07 PM »

"Basically, we can't drop of all the supplies at the moment, you have clearance to eat the supplies from the hikers labaz"

For me, this rules out the possibility of food based toxicity affecting the DP9.

It is a good thread, Ziljoe..

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General Discussion / Re: Is there evidence for outsiders?

« Last post by Ziljoe on May 14, 2024, 10:39:53 AM »

I can't say I disagree agree with your observations Glenn. There is a lot of transparency within the case files that would have been shut down or redacted if there was some sort of cover up. .

I'm cautious of the transaction of crumpled pans , but I wait other russian forum members to give a translation.

I am researching the best I can from my perspective from translation. If I understand correctly, for example, the call for more food etc for the searcher's was delayed because of weather, despite their resources and the command was given to use the labaz / cache of the Dyatlov for consumption by the the searcher's. .

Basically, we can't drop of all the supplies at the moment, you have clearance to eat the supplies from the hikers labaz.

20

General Discussion / Re: Is there evidence for outsiders?

« Last post by GlennM on May 14, 2024, 10:09:15 AM »

Winter Lea correctly states that the presence of someone at the scene does not equate to involvement with the situation. To date, there is nothing to suggest this happened, though Ziljoe speaks to the proximity of Mansi in the area. I suppose the " let dead dogs lie" would be reason enough for observers to keep hands off. Then again, who knows if Mansi according to personal or cultural beliefs, would say something for humanitarian reasons at the time?

So, I turn my attention to those who did affect the scene. The crumpled pan observation does support Teddy's theory, but poses a question. " If crumpled pans were caused by a fallen tree, who in their right mind is going to chop out and move the tent a mile away, leave corpses behind and keep tell tale contents? It is a real problem! Conspirators could not get away with discarding nor replacing the cookery. Their deception is flawed. I think it is a translation error at worst. For me, I put crumpled pans down to a slab slide crushing the tent and what is inside.

Three kinds of evidence are physical, eyewitness and circumstantial. The crushed pans support physical evidence of interlopers tampering. The proximity of Mansi in the area support circumstantial evidence. The absence of eyewitness testimony or diary entries negates it as evidence.  If we are to move the conspiracy needle, these are the three areas to pursue.