April 08, 2020, 11:47:14 PM
Dyatlov Pass Forum

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General Discussion / Re: Tent was their lifeboat
« Last post by Jean Daniel Reuss on Today at 04:20:41 PM »
One of the enigmas raised by the DPI is: "Why did they come out of the tent underdressed? »
One possible answer that is very satisfying is: "Because the atmosphere inside the tent had suddenly become unbreathable. »

This answer had already been found, see:
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=447.0
Liyla79 General Discussion > I have figured it out
June 20, 2019, 02:15:20 AM    The group were deliberately GASSED out of the tent.

This is what I am developing in a more complete way in my scenario N°2 which I think extends the arguments of Per Inge Ostermoen... and others .
See ;
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=484.0
April 07, 2020, 12:44:33 PM Reply #19
   There was an attack by some ex-zeks from settlement 41.

The question changes to: "How to quickly make the inside of a 5 m³ enclosed space unbreathable? »

One possible answer is very simple. In fact, at the age of 13, I had learned in college exactly how to do it with 1 or 2 kg of inexpensive products.
And moreover I was doing small demonstrations but OUTSIDE with only 1 g of product.

This is the reaction :
 
2.KNO³ + 4.S -->   3.SO² + N² + K²S

202 g of potassium nitrate mixed with 128 g of sulphur provide 67.2 litres of sulphur dioxide (measured at 0°C)
The (high) speed of combustion (rather deflagration) depends on the fineness of the 2 powders and the humidity.

Note:
Of course other suffocating gases are conceivable but KNO³ and S are (or were) particularly easy to acquire without attracting attention in the USSR as elsewhere.   
With potassium chlorate it is almost the same:
2.KClO³ + 3.S ---> 3.SO² + 2.KCl

Cl² is better than SO² but sodium hypochlorite and hydrochloric acid are in liquid form difficult to use in surprise attack.
 
HOCl + HCl ---> Cl² + H²O

Also, from 9 p.m. the head attacker lights the wick and by spreading one side of the tent opening introduces 3.3 kg of the ignited mixture 2 KNO³ + 4 S.
Within 30 seconds 672 litres of SO² are released in the 4 m³ of the tent interior.

I can guarantee you that all 9 hikers came out of the tent in terrible coughing fits.
The 9 hikers had a burning sensation in their eyes and could hardly see anything.
This also explains the knife lacerations made, without much effectiveness, from inside the tent.

Note that 10 minutes later the effects of the SO² had (almost?) disappeared and on this point they could have been considered almost healed.



..... If the tent was filled with toxic fumes, why not just step outside and wait for the fumes to dissipate? ................................

But what is important is that the moment they left the tent in a state of inferiority the attackers immediately started hitting them with blunt objects. (cf. Tumanov)

They try to channel them in one direction by hitting them continuously.
The number of ex-zek attackers is hard to determine.
I imagine there are three strikers, but that is debatable. One leading them down the slope; the other two are on either side of the line that is forming.

In complete darkness the 12 staggering black figures are barely visible against the white background of the snow. The ground is slippery and uneven. Violent and imprecise blows are made on both sides almost at random. But blunt objects are more effective than bare fists...

 • Around 10 p.m. first Kolmogorova, then Slobodin and finally Dyatlov, despite a desperate defence, lie unconscious on the slope. They are badly banged up and have bloody fists from hitting. The cold will soon finish them off.

The contact is broken. The 3 ex-zeks go back up to the empty tent and wait while they regain some of their strength from the punches they have received. They know that the six remaining hikers will not be able to reach settlement 41 without skis.

 • midnight. A light in the night: it is the fire under the cedar. Doroshenko is attacked when krivonishenko is at the top of the cedar cutting green branches to maintain the fire. He is burned at the legs with a burning branch from the fire.
 • 2 February around 1 p.m...  Doroshenko and Krinonishenko lie unconscious at the foot of the cedar and the cold will soon finish them off.

As there are still 4 hikers to find and kill, a tactic of the Mongolian army will be able to serve.
      Disappear temporarily to make the survivors believe it is over, then return to the scene and finish the job.
 • 2 February around 5 p.m...  The job of the ex-zeks is over, it has been hard !
to be continued...
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General Discussion / Tent was their lifeboat
« Last post by MDGross on Today at 09:07:36 AM »
In the ocean of such brutal weather, why would the Dyatlov group move very far from the tent that was their lifeboat? They most surely knew that to walk almost a mile to the forest as poorly dressed as they were meant almost certain death. If the tent was filled with toxic fumes, why not just step outside and wait for the fumes to dissipate? If a snow wall had fallen on their tent, why couldn't nine people quickly remove the snow and get the tent back in good order? Their only chance to survive was to stay with the tent. Why would you jump from a lifeboat into a freezing ocean when in 15 minutes you will have frozen to death?
Which begs the question, were they forced at gunpoint to walk to the woods? If your choice is to start walking or get shot where you stand, who wouldn't take the chance of walking to the woods and trying to survive? 
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General Discussion / Re: Ravine Injuries
« Last post by Nigel Evans on Today at 07:50:54 AM »
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General Discussion / Re: Ravine Injuries
« Last post by Jean Daniel Reuss on April 07, 2020, 02:48:24 PM »
* 1° All-wooden bar
To break bones without leaving bloody marks it is simpler and more efficient to hit with a wooden bar (weight about 3 kilograms, length about 1 meter).
Something similar to this old method:



* 2°) Leaded bludgeon
The blunt objects mentioned by Eduard Tumanov could also be leaded bludgeons that could easily break a human skull. Length: about 80 centimetres, weight: about 2 kilograms.
See
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=411.0

According to my scenario N°2 that I have started to propose here...
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=484.0
Reply #19

The attackers came from special settlement 41 and could equip themselves with what was left available in the houses of North 2.
The abandoned village North2 had been home to geologists prospecting in this area of the Urals.


Yuri Yudin wrote in his diary
..the 2nd Northern settlement. There so much - many houses, warehouses, premises, forgotten old vehicles, machine tools. Everything was abandoned since 1952...»


There was probably some lead pipe left there. It was then easy to make a leaded bludgeon by fitting a cut branch onto a piece of lead pipe.

A leaded bludgeon is better balanced than a simple solid wooden club. It is therefore even more effective for breaking bones (ribs like skulls) without leaving very visible marks on the skin.



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Murdered / Re: The tent was near the cedar. There was an attack
« Last post by Jean Daniel Reuss on April 07, 2020, 12:44:33 PM »
Help me out here. Gildar's videos are certainly important and interesting but it is really too difficult to understand for a french guy like me because without written text it is not possible to use the copy/paste function,  so you can not use the online automatic translators.

  •  sarapuk : August 31, 2019, 12:36:42 PM         Reply #1
Well, I always had the feeling that maybe Woodpecker's band had some kind of camp near a cedar tree...

    I understand there was an attack.

There was hand to hand fightings. I must also agree with Per Inge Oestmoen,  knocker,  Eduard Tumanov................
I have also found other very good leads to explore on the forum 

  •  Nordlander     Reply #29
Murdered / Re: Resistance goup maybe?   March 27, 2019, 08:41:08 PM » 

I don't think it was escapees from a gulag. ...
...Still, many of the "settlers" living in the area had been former inmates of gulagswho remained there after the institutions were closed and they were freed. I think the loggers fall into this category--hence the comments in the diary about their roughness. There were also people in internal exile--many Jewish people, some ethnic Germans like the forestry guy--to keep them from away from the European part of Russia to prevent them from defecting. So a lot of area residents would have been exposed to the barbaric conditions in the gulags and to the forms of violence practiced there. That is one of the things that makes it hard to determine who the attackers may have been: many different groups would have the same "tool kit" because of Stalin's practice of mass incarceration, where political dissidents would be thrown in with common criminals and psychopaths.

 •  Loose}{cannon
Murdered / Re: Resistance goup maybe?    Reply #9
« on: March 16, 2019, 08:27:03 PM
The gulags are said to have been disbanded in 1953 shortly after the death of Stalin.  However, it is my understanding that not all gulags were the same.  In other words, there were mentally ill, petty criminals, violent criminals, white collar criminals, political enemies etc, and they were not entirely mixed up. Many that were eligible for release had nowhere to go and stayed as part of a freed and payed working party of say mining and logging communities.  This is the reason I asked WAB if the logging camp (settlement 41) they stopped at happened to be labor camp. While in 1959 the loggers were a "community" that were there working on their own free will, I am uncertain that was always the case. I have also seen the maps posted above regarding gulag locations and wonder how many released 'detainees' of varying degrees stayed in these locations post 1953, or never left the region in general.   

Food for thought.

  •  Vietnamka
Murdered / Re: Resistance goup maybe?    Reply #26
on: March 20, 2019, 06:21:10 PM
  ....  I just went to archive, found documents and shows - prisoners escaped, does not matter what do you think about. You never been a prisioner contained for 25 years for good understanding motives, logic and possibility. Even about prisoner's skills (a lot of them passed through the 2WW) you don't know too.....


  *** In Poland, the situation was more complicated. By the end of the war, a significant proportion of the Polish population were living in a camp of some kind, whether a displaced persons’ camp (Jews, Ukrainians, former Nazi slave laborers), a detention camp (Germans and Volksdeutsche,Poles suspected of not being good communists or not adhering to the Bierut or Gomulka policy), or a prison camp in Siberia.

After 1953, as second-class citizens, deported peoples designated as "special settlers" or ex-zeks were prohibited from holding a variety of jobs, returning to their countries of origin, attending prestigious schools.

The Soviet government feared that people of certain nationalities would act as "fifth column" subversives during the cold or expected war, and took drastic measures to prevent this perceived threat.


 ***  For me the field of possibilities has narrowed and in order to build what I call my scenario N°2, I am in the process of gathering historical, political and psychological arguments.
But obviously no one will be able to come up with absolute incontrovertible proof. One can only propose scenarios with a good degree of probability that are complete and coherent.

I now believe that the murderers were in the special settlement 41.

They were not zeks, prisoners in poor health. They were well-nourished ex-zeks who were almost free except that they were subject to restrictive rules on stay and residence known as "special domestic passport regulations".

Look at the great length of the building,
 
 

there is room in there to accommodate a lot of people. Some people did not want to be photographed with the hikers and stayed inside. Others are far outside.


I read that the record for the Vasaloppet is 90 km covered in 4 hours.
By following exactly a track in the packed snow by the passage of 9 skiers an average chaser should be able to cover 50 km in 9 hours.

Question: Is 50 km the distance from settlement 41 (or North 2) to the tent?

On January 31, 1959 around 4 p.m. Thibeaux-Brignolle turned around and saw a strange shadow moving. He instinctively triggered his camera without taking the time to focus.
 

This is photo N° 17 of one of the ex-zek pursuers who hates all these bastards of young Soviet communists who admire Khrushchev and maybe even Stalin !

To be able to give a complete and coherent explanation of the DPI enigma it is inevitable to imagine some missing unknown parts.
  I will soon send you the rest of my scenario N°2.
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General Discussion / Ravine Injuries
« Last post by neni_cesty_zpet on April 07, 2020, 08:23:52 AM »
Hello,
according to photo of Kolevatov and Zolotaryov (https://dyatlovpass.com/death) I'd say that Kolevatov body was the cause of Zolotaryov's nasty chest deformity (5 broken ribs).

If I admit murder, then this injury was not caused by weapon but by some kind of either "jumping" on his chest by attacker(s) or more probably to me,
by throwing dead bodies down the pit, body onto body. Like throwing victims into mass murder.

The body of Ms Dubinina probably obtained it's fatal injuries in similar way.

Accidentally falling person would try to protect chest area with arms.

I'd say that these people were dead already (stiff) or almost dead in case of violent act.

Or something else happened: Thibeaux-Brignolles (or less probably Ms. Dubinina because they would probably not allow girl wandering alone in dark) was returning to "den" cause accidentally caused snow collapse and possibly fell onto them.

Such unfortunate event would cause deaths of people in "den" who would otherwise survive the whole accident and was able to return to ten in daylight.

For me, the whole Dyatlov pass incident was just a chain of unfortunate minor bad luck episodes which resulted in tragedy. Caused by low visibility, harsch environment, cold and something else (cuts in tent).


Any feedback welcomed.
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Murdered / Re: The tent was near the cedar. There was an attack
« Last post by neni_cesty_zpet on April 07, 2020, 05:48:30 AM »
Unfortunately, I dont speak russian.
Does he suggests that there was murder and then the tent was moved to slope, right?

I see absolutely no reason for that, not no mention that murderes would risk being witnessed by native people like Mansis.
Who would murder, for what reason and why move tent?

If the murderers were working for KGB then I'd expect them to take whole group for intensive interrogation or make them vanish without trace.
Not moving the tent to higher altitude, possibly in harsch environment during low visibility at night, spreading corpses nearby.
8
Hello, here are some facts that I gathered:

1) Semyon Zolotaryov - After the victory he graduated from Minsk Institute of Physical Culture. He left for Lermontov, a closed city due to uranium mining. He got a job as a physical education teacher.
2) Yuri Krivonischenko worked in a most notorious “P.O. Box*” – the plant “Mayak*” in Chelyabinsk-40, where a massive nuclear disaster, second in severity only to Chernobyl, occurred in 1957.
3) Aleksander Kolevatov: before transferring to the Physics-Technical department at the UPI, he worked in Moscow as a laboratory assistant in a top-secret scientific facility, an unnamed “atomic” institute known as “P.O. Box No. 3394”

To me, using radioactive detection device (e.g. Geiger counter) was an intelligible alternative to avalanche probes. I cannot make an educated guess about sensitity of these devices (or specific device it this case which type is probably unknown) but it has it's logic since they had no idea where and how deep the bodies were and it was known that some people in the group came in touch with radioactivity
before.
Or it was just act of pure desperation because the search had been taking too much time already.

Basically, this part of 'story' is no mystery to me at all and it does not lead me to any conspirative thinking.

sources:
https://dyatlovpass.com/theories
https://dyatlovpass.com/zolotaryov-exhumation

Personally, I can see some 'red lights' when reading about Semyon Zolotaryov, but it will fit into another thread.
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Murdered / Re: The tent was near the cedar. There was an attack
« Last post by gildar on April 06, 2020, 11:29:50 PM »
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General Discussion / Re: More Controversial: The Event Itself Or Its Aftermath
« Last post by mk on April 06, 2020, 07:41:39 AM »

• Why did the military use a Geiger counter in the initial search?

It's "noise" information. That is, there was a lot of talk about it, but nothing is actually confirmed. None of the search participants (actual participants, not those who heard something unclear where) confirm it. Then it is logical to ask the question: who, besides the search participants themselves, can know this reliably?

You may not have read the interview with Vladimir Askinadzi https://dyatlovpass.com/askinadzi?rbid=18461.  He took part in the search and found Lyudmila Dubininа. He states, "I learned about radiation only when the case was declassified. True, there was a Moscow radiologist with a dosimeter there on the pass. He took measurements, but we were not informed about the results." 

Even so, there may be nothing significant about that.
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