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1

General Discussion / Re: How cold in the tent with no heat?

« Last post by Nigel Evans on Today at 11:43:18 AM »

We don't know the plan wrt the stove, it was filled with wood. They couldn't sleep under it with the tent in low mode but worst case they could sit up (no sleep though).

So this sounds excellent training exercise imo. Imagine a military team being tested on an endurance exercise but as the leader you need to find a safe location for it.

• The forest is minutes away on skis, say 30 minutes on foot. They have flashlights.
• There are no steep dangerous sections between the tent and the forest.
• They can insulate the tent from outside temperatures with deep snow.
• They can get the stove going if the cold is too much.

You couldn't make it a safer exercise?

2

General Discussion / Discrepancies in diaries

« Last post by tenne on Today at 11:28:23 AM »

There is a lot about the diaries that bothers me. three things that really stand out to me

Jan 25 group diary
" The bus made a small detour away from the highway, in the village of Shipichnoe, and we were given the chance to step out, which we did with pleasure. Four of the most agile went far ahead to the settlement of Talitsa to see the power station. Suddenly the heard: "The bus." We rush out the door, but, alas, it was too late. The bus passed by and we were forced to chance after it as fast as we can, hoping fate would be merciful and, perhaps, we would catch up with it (I am part of the "agile" four). However, the first hundred meters clearly demonstrated the advantages of a fifty horse power engine. Our heels flashed far behind the bus, and the gap widened. The prospect to walk about thirty kilometers on the highway with no breakfast and lunch already seemed quite real, when suddenly ... I mentioned that fate is merciful. The mercy came in the form of a girl going to Vizhay that hailed the bus and stopped the object of our persecution. A minute later we were already safely sitting on the second floor of the seats and traveling to Vizhay"

Jan 25 Zinaida diary
"Then we took the bus and drove off. We are 20 people, backpacks and skis. Had to pile up on 3 levels, but we sang songs all the way. Arrived in Vizhay"

Jan 25, Lyuda diary
"When we arrived at а turn the bus went to a village and had to return for us in an hour.
We continue on foot. It was so nice to walk along the road in such good weather. We went a little nuts and roll in the snow.
During our walk тхере вас ан incident - a car coming from the forest got stuck in the opposite direction. Our guys rushed to the rescue. Finally they pulled it out in half. Then our bus came up and we hopped on i"

end quotes
it seems very suspect to me that all three had a different sorta version of the events. I would think that 4 running and almost missing would be mentioned in all diaries

Jan 26 group diary
". I remembered particularly the red- bearded man. The Beard, that's what his friends call him.
Ognev is an old friend, he is described in Lyuda Dubinina's private diary."

Jan 26 Lyuda diary
" The guys are all young, as Igor noticed, there are even cute and generally interesting. Especially memorable among all is Ognev with a red beard and the nickname of his "Beard". In general, very rarely there are such people in such a hole. A true romantic, a geologist and generally developed."

end quotes
how did they know what was in her private diary and why describe him as an old friend when she doens't make a claim like that

jan 31 group diary (written by Dyatlov according to the notes)
"Wind not strong, snow 1.22 m deep. We’re exhausted, but start setting up for the night. Firewood is scarce, mostly damp firs. We build the campfire on the logs, too tired to dig a fire pit. Dinner’s in the tent. Nice and warm. Can’t imagine such comfort on the ridge, with howling wind outside, hundreds of kilometers away from human settlements."

Is he saying that camping on an unprotected area would be a bad idea or showing he knows how cold and dangerous is would be when they do it?

3

General Discussion / Re: How cold in the tent with no heat?

« Last post by KFinn on Today at 10:58:23 AM »

But I cannot see how a night without heating is survivable even if they had on all the clothes they brought.

Manti, I used to disagree with you on that point, but now, I think you're right.  A plain canvas tent, pitched on an exposed hillside, in the Siberian winter, no sleeping bags, and no heat source?  I don't think so!  Having looked again at the photos from the 1958 expedition to the Subpolar Urals, I notice that they did deploy the stove even when camped above the treeline (you can see its chimney protruding from the tent).

So, yeah, if the Dyatlov group really did intentionally camp on the slope of Kholat Syakhl, then I now think they were planning to use the stove.  I think they'd try to do a "cold night" only if they had no other choice.

But, when the search party found the tent, the stove wasn't set up.  One possibility is that the Dyatlovites camped on the hillside, and for whatever reason abandoned their campsite before setting up the stove.  Another possibility is that the Dyatlov hikers never actually camped where their tent was found, and that the campsite on Kholat Syakhl, as found by the search party, was staged.

Something I've wondered, can the stove be strung up after the tent was put up or did it have to be slung on the ridge rope as the tent was put together?  I assume it had hooks to be hung after the tent was up but I don't think I've ever seen the process explained.  (With higher tents, you want to affix anything to the ridge before the ridge is in the air, but this tent did not stand so tall so I assume it didn't matter.  However, if for whatever reason there was no way to install the stove after the tent was up, that would indicate they either did not plan to use it or the tent was staged...)

4

General Discussion / Re: How cold in the tent with no heat?

« Last post by RMK on Today at 10:46:37 AM »

But I cannot see how a night without heating is survivable even if they had on all the clothes they brought.

Manti, I used to disagree with you on that point, but now, I think you're right.  A plain canvas tent, pitched on an exposed hillside, in the Siberian winter, no sleeping bags, and no heat source?  I don't think so!  Having looked again at the photos from the 1958 expedition to the Subpolar Urals, I notice that they did deploy the stove even when camped above the treeline (you can see its chimney protruding from the tent).

So, yeah, if the Dyatlov group really did intentionally camp on the slope of Kholat Syakhl, then I now think they were planning to use the stove.  I think they'd try to do a "cold night" only if they had no other choice.

But, when the search party found the tent, the stove wasn't set up.  One possibility is that the Dyatlovites camped on the hillside, and for whatever reason abandoned their campsite before setting up the stove.  Another possibility is that the Dyatlov hikers never actually camped where their tent was found, and that the campsite on Kholat Syakhl, as found by the search party, was staged.

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General Discussion / Re: Who here on the forum has real life experience?

« Last post by Nigel Evans on Today at 09:32:17 AM »

In a whiteout, up and down become your best most reliable friends, compass bearings can deceive but gravity never does. I know because i've been there.

You can get vertigo in a severe whiteout and lose your sense of up and down, dead reckoning is the only way to keep track of where you are; otherwise you're lost and gambling on the weather clearing to get your bearings.

Getting away with it is not the same as "best"

Being lost isn't a problem if the shelter of the forest is a few minutes away downhill. The only caveat would be if the map showed dangerously steep ground nearby which was not the case here.

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Introductions / Re: DPI noob

« Last post by KFinn on Today at 09:28:40 AM »

The weather on that particular night is debated.  There are a lot of witness statements in the case files that it was really bad in Ivdel, Polochnoe and around the region.  The pictures certainly show storm conditions.  They had had unseasonably warm days up until that point, which could indicate severe weather change coming.  But a recent analysis of weather conditions then said there wasn't anything unusual.  I feel there was a storm and the winds on the ridge were already legendary.  I think weather had an integral role in the events, although the how changes daily for me, lol!  This poor group, it just seems that whatever happened, it was a perfect storm of dominoes going down :(

Usually it's considerably warmer (~10C difference) during heavy snowfall than in sunny weather, I think this would apply even in the Urals; seems like so from looking at more recent weather there.

My friend, while you are most probably right, can you share this with Mother Nature?  We just went from 40F with sun to a -13F wind chill and heavy snow in less than 24 hours and I'm really just ready for something consistent, lol!!!! 

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General Discussion / Re: Who here on the forum has real life experience?

« Last post by Nigel Evans on Today at 09:25:28 AM »

Also was a camera even found on Semyon? All we know is he had the camera case around his neck. Was there a camera in it? Unknown, right?

I don't think it was a fashion statement. i guess either you want to embrace these photos or you don't, if you don't then there's plenty of opportunities to deny them. Ivanov's personal effects included these photos etched with Semyon's surname. The person who developed that film added those letters for a reason.

I don't necessarily deny that the pictures are genuinely from Zolotaryev.  I just wonder if the film came from a camera in the case around Zolotaryev's neck or if the film came from the tent.  I wish there was better chain of command for various evidence.

None of the evidence is beyond question, all original materials confiscated, Okishev asserts that Ivanov would have doctored the case files under direction from Moscow, even the final casebook shows evidence of being restitched.

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General Discussion / Re: Who here on the forum has real life experience?

« Last post by ash73 on Today at 09:06:05 AM »

In a whiteout, up and down become your best most reliable friends, compass bearings can deceive but gravity never does. I know because i've been there.

You can get vertigo in a severe whiteout and lose your sense of up and down, dead reckoning is the only way to keep track of where you are; otherwise you're lost and gambling on the weather clearing to get your bearings.

Getting away with it is not the same as "best"

9

General Discussion / Re: Who here on the forum has real life experience?

« Last post by ash73 on Today at 08:51:12 AM »

He said they were going to camp on the ridge and that's what they did

But he doesn't say where, or when, or on which side of the pass, so it can fit the plan.

Whereas he said S to 663, when it was actually SW (SSW at a push). Recording SW would show they were off course.

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General Discussion / Re: How cold in the tent with no heat?

« Last post by tenne on Today at 07:49:49 AM »

yes, snow forts are very warm, that is why they were used by the Inuit for centuries. this wasn't that warm as far I can tell. I don't think it would have been comfortable enough to sit around in the light clothing they were wearing. Which fits with my theory that the tent being set up there was part of the cover up.

IMO, to be dressed like that, they were in a warm building, or warmer than the tent for sure. the two men were dressed because they went outside for a smoke? talk? see something but I just can't see the rest of them comfortably sitting around with no stove in the tent, on a slope.

Which reminds me of another thing, the supposed last photo of the group pitching their tent on the mountain is supposed to show them digging a wall of snow to level the tent off. where is all that snow?