July 06, 2022, 01:01:35 AM
Dyatlov Pass Forum

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91
Murdered / Re: Frame N°20 of Slobodin's camera
« Last post by Charles on June 19, 2022, 06:05:50 PM »
In the list of oppositions between the two groups, there is one hidden by the clothes. If the hikers were healthy and athletic young people, the loggers were made of a different material, they were young as well but made of iron. Here on the left, a photo of soviet workers handling logs and on the right a photo of Doroshenko:



It is very likely that the level of strength and stamina of these young loggers of the Ural was of todays special forces or Thai kickboxers. And the athletic qualities of the hikers could not be compared, because of their urban lifestyle, because of all the days spent sitting int the warmth of  libraries and engineering companies. Same difference as between amateurs and the best pros. On the photos, we don't make the difference, we see them all wearing winter clothes, in reality, there was a wide gap in physical strength..
92
General Discussion / Re: Nine Clumsy Oafs?
« Last post by Ziljoe on June 19, 2022, 03:38:18 PM »
I have to correct one mistake that I see lots of people say. No, they did not cut a "window" on cedar tree to "watch the tent" from there. That was not their reason for cutting the branches from higher. They simply climbed higher to tree and cut the branches first from higher, to avoid situation that they wouldn't reach out higher branches, after they had cut and burned all the lower ones. That would be very stupid. You could only use branches that are growing from 0-2 meters from ground, and that's it. How do you climb and reach higher branches if there's no low branches to use for climbing? This is my opinion, so stop saying they needed to "watch the tent" from tree. I don't think that was the reason.
Then the wolverine theory. I suppose the stench must be very bad, BUT: would you rather die, than hold your nose and take at least your boots, even if they smell really bad? No I wouldn't. And why not take knives and ice hack, their smeall can not have been too bad, or they could have easily "washed" them in snow. At least most of the smell. Just rub some snow all over the things. Did they even try? Doesn't make sense to me.
I think the boots were vet from snow and ice, and maybe they frozed, so they couldn't put them on anymore.

Hi Sunny ,

There are a number of ideas about a 'window' in the ceder. It may be just coincidence that ithis 'window' existed.
It doesn't make much sense , as when you are close to an obstacle , it easy to move your own head to see far away. I guess they may have snapped these branches for the sap in the wood as it helps to get a fire going.

I believe there was plenty of wood/branches on the ground. Their eyesight may have compromised if it was a Wolverine for example.

I too ask the question about the Wolverine. But it might help to understand that the group wouldn't know what just happened if they were sprayed. The spray is toxic although not a killer, they just wouldn't be sure about retrieving more equipment as they may have tried but they were already suffering the effects. If my memory is correct I, I'm sure that it was reported that their was evidence of foot prints close to the tent implying there was a period of standing. I could be wrong on this. There are so many interpretations of what did or didn't happen.

snow wouldn't help wash away the smell, it's also a problem with skunk spray. It would be interesting to put someone in a tent and spray the Wolverine toxic weapon to see how bad it is?.
93
General Discussion / Re: Nine Clumsy Oafs?
« Last post by Sunny on June 19, 2022, 01:40:02 PM »
I have to correct one mistake that I see lots of people say. No, they did not cut a "window" on cedar tree to "watch the tent" from there. That was not their reason for cutting the branches from higher. They simply climbed higher to tree and cut the branches first from higher, to avoid situation that they wouldn't reach out higher branches, after they had cut and burned all the lower ones. That would be very stupid. You could only use branches that are growing from 0-2 meters from ground, and that's it. How do you climb and reach higher branches if there's no low branches to use for climbing? This is my opinion, so stop saying they needed to "watch the tent" from tree. I don't think that was the reason.
Then the wolverine theory. I suppose the stench must be very bad, BUT: would you rather die, than hold your nose and take at least your boots, even if they smell really bad? No I wouldn't. And why not take knives and ice hack, their smeall can not have been too bad, or they could have easily "washed" them in snow. At least most of the smell. Just rub some snow all over the things. Did they even try? Doesn't make sense to me.
I think the boots were vet from snow and ice, and maybe they frozed, so they couldn't put them on anymore.
94
Murdered / Routes of the hikers and their murderers
« Last post by Charles on June 19, 2022, 08:41:27 AM »
In the hypothesis of a criminal case, I think the hikers were behind their murderers who were locals from District 41 and followed their tracks until jan. 30 when the murderers turned right and crossed the Auspiya river.

In blue the intended route of the hikers, in red the route of the murderers, in green the actual route of the hikers:




95
Wolverine / Re: Wolverine
« Last post by Игорь Б. on June 19, 2022, 12:52:36 AM »
Ziljoe, большое спасибо за разъяснения на английском языке. Я думаю, русский язык для многих иностранцев является препятствием к пониманию.
96
Wolverine / Re: Wolverine
« Last post by Ziljoe on June 19, 2022, 12:35:55 AM »


Igor explains it in his 113 pages. It is not as large as it seems and he links all the questions you ask. I find it absolutely bewildering that you have difficulty navigating from his explanation and Igor b's exposition is quite simple.

1:The Dyatlov group camp on the slope.(bad weather)

 2:Wolverine finds its way into to the tent. Not to attack the group but just following it's nose and the smell of food.( Igor supplies examples and statements of other campers experiencing the Wolverine entering their tent. )

3: Panic by the group and by the Wolverine occur in the tent.

4:The Wolverine does not attack/ fight in this situation,it is not a fighting beast in that respect. The Wolverine is as scared/surprised by the encounter as the group. When the Wolverine (like a skunk) feels threatened or can't escape, it's immediate , instinctive reaction when in a extreme difficult situation , is to spray it's chemical toxic defensive weapon. A last resort. ( There are numerous videos on YouTube of the Wolverine fighting wolves etc ) but when in a situation that it can't control, the Wolverine will spray.

5: Igor B's hypothesis is that the the toxic spray is the reason for the exit of the tent. Not the fighting or threat from the animal but the chemical reaction , like a tear gas grenade. This is a strong odour that hurts the eyes and lungs. Given the possibility that it happened directly in the tent would only amplify the toxic spray. ( Just watch some riot videos and see what happens)

6: with this confusion and the fact that the Dyatlov group would know little about what just happened ,they left their belongings , leaving their equipment and discarding their sprayed clothing behind. Having suffered the irritant in its strongest dosage in a confined space, approaching the tent would add to the suffering to the group. ( By the way, skunk spray can knock a dog out) .

7: At this point we can forget the Wolverine, it's gone, it's ran off into the wilderness. The possibility of spray by the Wolverine also gives valadility to the reference of behaviour of the search dogs not willing to exit the helicopter. This is a indication of odd behaviour, also the fact that this was note worthy as to have been documented is interesting to me.

8:  as the foot prints show,the group left the tent and went towards the treeline..  Igor b then  explains /expands on what followed. It was a series of unfortunate events and the cold. He continues  by explaining why some had frostbite and others didn't for example and Why the ribs are broken in the way they were , as there are a number of different ways ribs break .....and the devil is in the detail.....( his 113 pages are linked to evidence based practice or medical examples) . There are explanations to the hand injuries, the body positions and why they occurred as a result of hypothermia.. (I have also found links to fractures of skulls from freezing ) .

---------------------------------------------------------------

In fact, Igor b"s explanation of the bodies and why they were found in their relative positions/ conditions is more interesting than the Wolverine part of the hypothesis. I would argue that his account of what followed the exit of the tent is the most  conclusive part of his argument against foul play / outsiders/ government badmen . 

Below is copied from Igor b's link. There is more than I have shown as it links to examples . But the Wolverine only plays a small part , it is the toxic stink that makes them leave the tent and it is that stink that stops them from returning to the tent .

------------------------------------------------------------------

Answers to some misconceptions about the wolverine version.

"If there was a wolverine, it would eat the corpses and eat the food."

Practically excluded and immediately for several reasons:

1. Stink.
From the tent and tourists smelled no longer of prey, but of the enemy. And the wolverine must distinguish between its own "marking" and "combat" smells (otherwise, why would it need different glands):


Otherwise, instead of the marked with her stash, she will again smell her recent enemy, from whom she barely swept her legs. Thus, a wolverine can mark his stash with a marking gland, urine, excrement, but never with the fluid of a fighting gland.

Products sprayed with the liquid of the battle gland will not be eaten by anyone, including the wolverine herself.
Not only because of the stench, but also because the mercaptans that make up this liquid are toxic.

2. Tearing
In addition to the stench, this weapon, due to its causticity, also has the properties of tear gas, whose effects in a confined space can last for several days:
Quote
For a week they could not enter the basement after the skunk attack without crying.

3. Fright.
Wolverine rarely uses his "chemical weapon" and if she did, then she was very scared. Why should she return to where she fled in fright?d it's defence weapon . It will not comeback to eat anything , neither will any other animal come near the bodies. ( Again , the
97
Murdered / Re: Frame N°20 of Slobodin's camera
« Last post by Charles on June 19, 2022, 12:34:45 AM »
When reading Yudin's diary :

"Strike. Everything is possible, but there is no good intelligent leadership. "

at first, I understood that he was talking of the strike as a possibility, but I was wrong:

"Everyone is singing, the workers living in barracks, did not go to work, they sing." (Zina, Jan 27)

"Now most of the guys sit here and sing songs to the guitar, on the occasion that they do not work today." (Lyuda, Jan 27)

This is the same day off, described as a "strike" by Yudin and as an "occasion that they do not work today" by the two girls. The loggers told Yudin that they were on strike and Venediktov complied with a great smile, they just wanted to spend time with the girls. The tourists were supposed to leave at 10:00 with two horses, they finally left at 16:00 :

"We helped Uncle Slava unload hay from a carriage and waited for the horse (it went to get more hay and wood)" (Doroshenko in group's diary)

Valyukyavichus was an accomplice, he lied to Dryahlyh who never learned that the tourists were actually allowed just one horse, he lied to Ryazhnev who never learned that the tourists actually left at 16:00 (instead of 10:00). Valyukyavichus made as many trips for wood and hay as needed to delay the time of departure and allow the loggers to enjoy the two girls. That is to say, on the photo N°20 of Slobodin's camera and related photos, the tourists are undergoing the will of the loggers. Valyukyavichus pretends he has to get more hay and wood before departure, the hikers help him unload the carriage in the hope of hastening the departure, Venediktov is smiling despite of the "strike", and the loggers sing for the girls and have a lot of fun... they actually have the tourists in their hand, it depends on the loggers to keep the tourists for one more hour or to release them... They do not only grab Zina's ski pole, they exercise actual power over the whole group of tourists.

And in Yudin's writing, as "strike" is a fact and not a possibility, the following words have a completely different meaning. "Everything is possible, but there is no good intelligent leadership." becomes a consequence. If they can be on strike, thus everything is possible - more than just a strike - but there is no good intelligent leadership to operate this unlimited possible... The mention of "no good intelligent leadership" being immediately followed by a description of Venediktov who could not finish the Forestry Institute.
98
Murdered / Re: Frame N°20 of Slobodin's camera
« Last post by Charles on June 19, 2022, 12:23:39 AM »
Here is a try to name the two groups according to correct oppositions:

loggers/hikers
workers/bourgeois
Lumpenproletariat/Soviet elite
locals/tourists
outcasts/privileged
kentovka/outsiders
villagers/townspeople
initiates/virgins

.
hunters/preys
shamans/victims
vorhums/humans


They named themselves "tourists" (on several occasions), "hikers" (twice) and "outsiders" (Yudin).
99
General Discussion / Re: Did the Mansi have ritual brotherhoods ?
« Last post by Charles on June 18, 2022, 11:08:47 PM »
Hello Manti

So Uncle Slava was Lithuanian?

He was convicted to a gulag sentence, released after Stalin's death, and stay in the area. This tells us how deeply destructive was the gulag, many could not go back to their previous lives.

In the diaries of several Dyatlov group members, you can see a collection of Mansi words from that time. I always assumed Uncle Slava taught them these words. But it seems unlikely now... Did they meet a Mansi at 2nd North? They mention nobody was there. Did they learn Mansi words from someone in District 41?

In testimonies, it is said that Mansi didn't come often at District 41. And the hikers wrote that they learned Mansi word from "the guys", that is to say from the ones posing on the stairs on Frame N°20 of Slobodin's camera. Some of these guys were perfectly fluent in Mansi and they learned the language when going to Mansi houses and interacting with Mansi in the Taiga.
100
General Discussion / Re: Did the Mansi have ritual brotherhoods ?
« Last post by Manti on June 18, 2022, 06:19:12 PM »
So Uncle Slava was Lithuanian?

In the diaries of several Dyatlov group members, you can see a collection of Mansi words from that time. I always assumed Uncle Slava taught them these words. But it seems unlikely now... Did they meet a Mansi at 2nd North? They mention nobody was there. Did they learn Mansi words from someone in District 41?
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