Dyatlov Pass Forum
Theories Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: tenne on December 20, 2022, 10:35:25 AM
-
Not sure if anyone is interested but it is -26 today where I live and I just dropped my nephew off for a cross country ski trip so I thought I would see if I could light big old fashioned matches in -26 with no gloves
I was out in the cold for exactly 3 min 25 seconds when I tried to light the matches. I did not have the dexterity to do so and with big mitts on, that was also impossible. I was not in the wind at all, as I assume being under the cedar would most likely block the wind
so how the survivors managed to light a fire in that cold is beyond me
-
I have had the same thoughts tenne. The only other option is the weather was warmer and less wind.
-
it looks like the weather under the cedar was -17.7 to -30.8
from 11pm to 7am according to the weather chart I found on this page
-
The reports on the weather varey quite a bit depending on what resource. The evidence for it being warmer is the raised foot prints. They need a certain temapture / conditions for them to have remained so long. A warm front then , to freeze, or so I believe. I'm not an expert , but it kind of makes sense. I've not experienced that type of cold.
-
Ziljoe, do you think it possible for the hiker with the matches to put their hand inside the parka, next to the skin of their body to get the necessary warmth to handle the match? If we can not assume hikers lit their own fire, what a can of worms that will be!
-
Ziljoe, do you think it possible for the hiker with the matches to put their hand inside the parka, next to the skin of their body to get the necessary warmth to handle the match? If we can not assume hikers lit their own fire, what a can of worms that will be!
given my experiments at different temps, and the fact that as far as anyone can see they didn't have any tinder to light so it would take quite a few matches, no, it wouldn't help. once the fingers are frozen and stiff it is very hard to get the working for fine things like lighting matches
-
The reports on the weather varey quite a bit depending on what resource. The evidence for it being warmer is the raised foot prints. They need a certain temapture / conditions for them to have remained so long. A warm front then , to freeze, or so I believe. I'm not an expert , but it kind of makes sense. I've not experienced that type of cold.
the footprints drive me up the wall because I have tried at different temps to leave tracks and I can't. not like that. I just went out, its now -21 in a wool and a cotton sock. the snow stuck to both, much more to the wool of course and my prints didn't melt and won't. From what I have done, walking in snow in socks, the snow sticks to the sock and then freezes, the snow on the ground doesn't freeze from the foot
-
Ziljoe, do you think it possible for the hiker with the matches to put their hand inside the parka, next to the skin of their body to get the necessary warmth to handle the match? If we can not assume hikers lit their own fire, what a can of worms that will be!
Hi GlennM.
Well , there was a fire, burnt/singed socks, handkerchief found. To get a log, branch going would be difficult. They may have got the sap from the branches of the fir tree. It's maybe why they broke them where they did. Close to the trunk. One could use teeth to hold the box and get a match in the first I suppose. There would be a number of ways, especially if there's more than one person. The tinder is an interesting point. But maybe enough small twigs with a bit of clothing could get things going but that kind of rules out strong winds?
-
The reports on the weather varey quite a bit depending on what resource. The evidence for it being warmer is the raised foot prints. They need a certain temapture / conditions for them to have remained so long. A warm front then , to freeze, or so I believe. I'm not an expert , but it kind of makes sense. I've not experienced that type of cold.
the footprints drive me up the wall because I have tried at different temps to leave tracks and I can't. not like that. I just went out, its now -21 in a wool and a cotton sock. the snow stuck to both, much more to the wool of course and my prints didn't melt and won't. From what I have done, walking in snow in socks, the snow sticks to the sock and then freezes, the snow on the ground doesn't freeze from the foot
Igor b , in this forum posts his experiment's. I think he managed to replicate it. These foot prints seem to happen and have been documented. It might have something to do with the humidity also. I'll try and find Igor's b link.
-
it was also night and while there was an almost full moon, it would be difficult to find tinder in the dark under the cedar tree
-
The reports on the weather varey quite a bit depending on what resource. The evidence for it being warmer is the raised foot prints. They need a certain temapture / conditions for them to have remained so long. A warm front then , to freeze, or so I believe. I'm not an expert , but it kind of makes sense. I've not experienced that type of cold.
the footprints drive me up the wall because I have tried at different temps to leave tracks and I can't. not like that. I just went out, its now -21 in a wool and a cotton sock. the snow stuck to both, much more to the wool of course and my prints didn't melt and won't. From what I have done, walking in snow in socks, the snow sticks to the sock and then freezes, the snow on the ground doesn't freeze from the foot
Igor b , in this forum posts his experiment's. I think he managed to replicate it. These foot prints seem to happen and have been documented. It might have something to do with the humidity also. I'll try and find Igor's b link.
That would be great if you could find it, humidity and cold do not usually go hand in hand, not the extreme cold anyway. for example its -21 here and the humidity is 67%
-
Tenne,
Please make this clear to me.
Did you make impressions in the snow with your socks?
Was the wool impression larger than the cotton impression?
Did the impressions continue to grow larger as you walked in the snow as the the show accumulated on the socks?
Were the footprints in the snow solid enough to become raised like the footprints the rescuers found.
Also:
Can you also do a boot print in the snow, similar to the one Teddy believes is a boot print.
Teddy thinks a print in the snow looks like a boot heel, but what about the sole of the,foot print? Would it preserve as well as a heel print?
What kind of snow boots do you think were used by people in 1959?
You are doing something good! Please continue your research.
-
Tenne,
Please make this clear to me.
Did you make impressions in the snow with your socks?
Was the wool impression larger than the cotton impression?
Did the impressions continue to grow larger as you walked in the snow as the the show accumulated on the socks?
Were the footprints in the snow solid enough to become raised like the footprints the rescuers found.
Also:
Can you also do a boot print in the snow, similar to the one Teddy believes is a boot print.
Teddy thinks a print in the snow looks like a boot heel, but what about the sole of the,foot print? Would it preserve as well as a heel print?
What kind of snow boots do you think were used by people in 1959?
You are doing something good! Please continue your research.
Yes, I made prints in the snow. with the cotton sock my toes could be clearly seen (we had about 3 cm of new snow that I walked in). the prints never became solid enough because the snow didn't melt to then freeze in the extremely short time a foot presses into the snow while walking. the prints just blew away
the snow was so dry it never really formed much larger tracks but I also didn't walk for too far as it was so cold. the snow didn't melt on my sock until I came in but I was only out for a very short time, maybe 3 min because it was too cold and frost bite isn't my friend
not sure what you mean about boot prints? all boots leave tracks in the snow but they don't freeze in very cold weather, they blow away.
-
all boots leave tracks in the snow but they don't freeze in very cold weather, they blow away.
Да, поэтому установлено, что обледеневшие следы-столбики были оставлены днём 1 февраля при потеплении перед приходом холодного атмосферного фронта:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=114039
-
all boots leave tracks in the snow but they don't freeze in very cold weather, they blow away.
Да, поэтому установлено, что обледеневшие следы-столбики были оставлены днём 1 февраля при потеплении перед приходом холодного атмосферного фронта:
http://1723.ru/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=5133&view=findpost&p=114039
Thank you Igor b.
Tenne this is the translated page, you will need to look at his page for the you tube video and chart photos.
Yesterday, on March 28, 2022, weather conditions in Yekaterinburg were almost the same as on the Dyatlov Pass at the time of the incident on February 1, 1959.
There was thick wet snow. The air temperature in the shade was about +1°C, but at ground level the temperature remained below zero. The snow did not melt and did not freeze around the tracks.
Attached image
On the freshly fallen layer of snow, traces of a cold boot were left. The next day, March 29, after a frosty night, when the tracks were frozen, an imitation of blowing out the tracks was made by sweeping with a very hard brush:
Attached image
https://youtu.be/zxGpqYvfM5k
The tracks turned out to be very strong, semi-icy on top. They broke with difficulty:
Attached image
https://youtu.be/oLIXLSuaskU
Unlike footprints formed from dry snow in frosty weather:
the wind does not have such traces inflate.
But traces-columns of the Dyatlovites most likely iced up in two stages.
First, on the day of the incident on February 1, and then, having already been blown out during the next warming on February 13, the tracks finally iced up under the influence of the sun, not only from above, but also from the sides.
-
"But traces-columns of the Dyatlovites most likely iced up in two stages.
First, on the day of the incident on February 1, and then, having already been blown out during the next warming on February 13, the tracks finally iced up under the influence of the sun, not only from above, but also from the sides."
Are you saying the tracks happened during the day when it was warm and the snow was wet or did it happen after 11pm when the snow would have been frozen?
According to the documents on this site, the weather on Feb 1-2 never got above -12 so I am a bit confused that you say the temps were above freezing at that time
and i will watch them, thank you
-
"Yesterday, on March 28, 2022, weather conditions in Yekaterinburg were almost the same as on the Dyatlov Pass at the time of the incident on February 1, 1959.
There was thick wet snow. The air temperature in the shade was about +1°C, but at ground level the temperature remained below zero. The snow did not melt and did not freeze around the tracks."
according to the official records, the temp didn't go up past -12 so are you saying that the official reports are wrong?
-
I have somehow missed this thread until now.
I also wondered about the conditions on the slope. I have a shocking idea. The raised footprints can also form even if it's very cold - as you say the temperature never went above -12C and that is not measured on the pass but further away (Burmantovo), the pass would have been colder.
But the footprints can form in cold powder snow even. If... you make them with wet socks.
Wild theory but is it possible they accidentally stepped into the stream that has its source on that slope, and then left the footprints downslope of where that happened?
-
I would think that if a person stepped in the powder snow with wet socks, the snow would stick to the sock and freeze and make a very distorted print, but I'm not going to try. This is just based on what wet mitts and gloves do when a person tries to make a snow ball with wet gloves...
as far as I can see, the only snow conditions that would produce those prints are the same ones that would allow a person to make a snow ball, or at least here that is true. the snow has to have enough moisture in it to hold its shape, all a wet glove does is make the snow stick to it and you lose the snow ball fight, or at least I usually did. one main reason, IMO, that most people wear nylon outside lining gloves, so the snow doesn't stick to them
-
Here's some information on raised foot prints. They are more common than I would have guessed. Alaska to UK .
It says they can last for several months but this bit is interesting.
"Because it requires more than a gale to blow away snow, raised footprints are often taken as an indicator of windslab and in mountain slopes, as potential avalanche danger. "
https://www.amusingplanet.com/2013/04/raised-footprints-in-snow.html
-
the main cause of avalanches here, in the mountains, is the layers of snow that are very powdery and other layers that are very wet, like a layer cake, the dry powder snow is a layer of powdered sugar (instead of icing) and the wet snow is the cake, pile it high enough and the cake will slide off the powdered sugar, if that makes sense.
so yes I can see them being an indicator of avalanches. I would also like to see how deep the snow was that was compressed and how heavy the people were that made it. Were they heavily loaded and walking in deep snow? that could make a print I think, but someone light walking in socks on packed snow, even if with a light layer of powder on it? I don't know
-
I don't know either tenne but it does fit with what we know. There were raised foot prints. The thickness of the layers would change constantly over the season. Freezing, thawing a bit, dry snow, wind and snow , wet snow and all the combinations . As you say, like a layer cake. They did dig a trench for the tent and if more snow fell during the time in the tent, a slab of snow sliding on a hard layer just may be enough to make them think worse. Once the first bit slides it makes everything above have the possibility to slide.
It's all about how they perceived the danger. They may not of been certain where they pitched the tent as the photos show poor visibility .If it was day time and good visibility they might have laughed and saw that they were in no immediate danger but if it was night, poor visibility and the first bit has collapsed the tent and more keeps sliding , not a lot but enough to make you not know, you must make a choice to move somewhere.
With their experience , they will have realised they cut in to a slope. Do you stay ? Or do you go?.
-
To sum up at this point, striking matches in frigid conditions with mittens is failure prone, though someone claims to be able to achieve it. The topic veered off into raised prints in the snow. The consensus seems to be that a special set of conditions are needed. Finally, unstable snow could have impacted the tent. Uncertaintymover what would follow was sufficient reason for the hikers to leave.
In fact, a fire was built,foot prints were found and the tent was abandoned and found in snow. There was structural,damage.
It appears to me that a hurried decision was made to leave the damaged tent, but the egress was controlled. When the forest was reached,,skilled hands were able to set a,fire. If the weather relented, they could have survived. The corpses and the snow cave demonstrate that the inclement weather persisted. This is the compelling force. Everything else that happened appears to be a consequence of well intentioned, but futile efforts to outlast the weather. This is a good thread. Actual experimentation happened.
-
"In fact, a fire was built, foot prints were found and the tent was abandoned and found in snow. There was structural,damage."
All the above are true however there is no proof that these were done by the hikers. The fire, the foot prints and the tent all could have been put there by the people who staged it, if as I do you believe that. If not then you believe the hikers did it. Sadly, unless someone saved some important papers and photos, I don't think we will ever know
-
To sum up at this point, striking matches in frigid conditions with mittens is failure prone, though someone claims to be able to achieve it. The topic veered off into raised prints in the snow. The consensus seems to be that a special set of conditions are needed. Finally, unstable snow could have impacted the tent. Uncertaintymover what would follow was sufficient reason for the hikers to leave.
In fact, a fire was built,foot prints were found and the tent was abandoned and found in snow. There was structural,damage.
It appears to me that a hurried decision was made to leave the damaged tent, but the egress was controlled. When the forest was reached,,skilled hands were able to set a,fire. If the weather relented, they could have survived. The corpses and the snow cave demonstrate that the inclement weather persisted. This is the compelling force. Everything else that happened appears to be a consequence of well intentioned, but futile efforts to outlast the weather. This is a good thread. Actual experimentation happened.
Sorry GlennM,
Didn't mean to go off topic. You know how it is , one thing leads to another.
"In fact, a fire was built, foot prints were found and the tent was abandoned and found in snow. There was structural,damage."
All the above are true however there is no proof that these were done by the hikers. The fire, the foot prints and the tent all could have been put there by the people who staged it, if as I do you believe that. If not then you believe the hikers did it. Sadly, unless someone saved some important papers and photos, I don't think we will ever know
It's logical to work to the simplest explanation and work outwards from there. Thehikers could make fire, there's no doubt about that. They did it the days before. They had matches and paper. I don't think people would have staged the foot prints, they would not know if they would be found? If they thought of this they would have all their other prints up and down the slope/wood/tent/ landing pad. Lifting up and putting down bodies , sledges , you name it. All with the possibility of being spotted by Mansi.
I think the hickers could and knew how to light a fire.
-
The hikers absolutely knew how to make fires and could make them. The question is could they make them at night, in the cold, at night, under those conditions? their fingers are freezing, which quickly reduces how much mobility a person has with their fingers, very little dry anything to start the fire with and its dark and they are freezing so not only is the mobility in their fingers greatly reduced, so is the body.
I wonder if the tent was placed there so the stagers could guarantee that it was found, along with everything else and I am not convinced yet that they could have carried the tent on their backs. All I can see is one photo in the official archives of them with the tent set up. Am I missing something? I know people have posted a tent used before and said it was that one but I can only see one photo of this group using it
-
I don't know either tenne but it does fit with what we know. There were raised foot prints. The thickness of the layers would change constantly over the season. Freezing, thawing a bit, dry snow, wind and snow , wet snow and all the combinations . As you say, like a layer cake. They did dig a trench for the tent and if more snow fell during the time in the tent, a slab of snow sliding on a hard layer just may be enough to make them think worse. Once the first bit slides it makes everything above have the possibility to slide.
It's all about how they perceived the danger. They may not of been certain where they pitched the tent as the photos show poor visibility .If it was day time and good visibility they might have laughed and saw that they were in no immediate danger but if it was night, poor visibility and the first bit has collapsed the tent and more keeps sliding , not a lot but enough to make you not know, you must make a choice to move somewhere.
With their experience , they will have realised they cut in to a slope. Do you stay ? Or do you go?.
Well, all I know is with avalanche training here, you don't go down the slope to avoid an avalanche, you go sideways to cut across. Would they go down hill single file walking if they were concerned about their safety?
-
To sum up at this point, striking matches in frigid conditions with mittens is failure prone, though someone claims to be able to achieve it.
I just want to clarify in case you missed it, I tried with both bare hands and thick gloves. I went back out after my hands warmed up to try with the gloves. Its a good thing my life didn't depend on it because I couldn't get a match to light and I used the big wooden ones, although I don't know if they are the same as what was used in 1959
-
Tenne, if my understanding is correct, they may have moved down the slope because it was gentle, I think if they were to side ways they would have to go up ?. I also think the foot prints weren't in single file but side by side. If the slab slide happened around their tent they might have thought it the safest option to walk away from it, as walking side ways( in their mind) might trigger more slides. There are lots of variables , was there wind at that time, was it dark. All these factors also add to the being able to start a fire. It makes sense to get to the ceder for fire wood. This suggests some sort of visibility , even if it's just silhouettes against the sky.
Having looked into wind slabs more, this may have been the problem. They said the wind was like a jet plane in their diary. This was the day before I think. It may not have being snowing but it's when the wind blows the fallen snow from one slope over to the other. This what makes the fluffy pillow blankets of snow, usually deeper higher up the mountain at the ridges. It's this snow that lies on top of the ice or harder layer. With temperature change it can become more unstable. So , perhaps, going side ways may have concerned them to trigger more. I'm no expert on snow....
But I think it would be possible to start a fire with good knowledge.
-
The hikers absolutely knew how to make fires and could make them. The question is could they make them at night, in the cold, at night, under those conditions? their fingers are freezing, which quickly reduces how much mobility a person has with their fingers, very little dry anything to start the fire with and its dark and they are freezing so not only is the mobility in their fingers greatly reduced, so is the body.
I wonder if the tent was placed there so the stagers could guarantee that it was found, along with everything else and I am not convinced yet that they could have carried the tent on their backs. All I can see is one photo in the official archives of them with the tent set up. Am I missing something? I know people have posted a tent used before and said it was that one but I can only see one photo of this group using it
There are many pictures of the same tent or kind of tent being used in the tourism but I know by experience that canvas tents are heavy . Given all the other food, clothing and equipment , it seems like extremely hard work.
-
There has been some mention of missing pages in a diary. I immediately think of kindling if a fire was made at all. Too, I think that it makes practical sense to keep the wind at your back. Going to the woods in line with a potential avalanche does not surprise me or them, I believe they knew the area was not avalanche prone when they dug their ledge on the hummock of snow to pitch their tent. They left the tent because they could not use it just then. It was collapsed, they were cold and it was not going to get better. So, it is better to shelter in the woods where there is firewood than to remain in the dark on the slope trying to clear overburden of slab snow, mend poles and attend to injuries while exposed to a katabatic wind. All of that just to re erect a tent they just cut up There is no need to fold in some external human presence to understand the behavior. It seems straightforward. The complication comes from introducing bad actors finding themselves high on a barren slope in the middle of nowhere in the middle of night in the middle of winter with nothing better to do than kill nine people, taking nothing, just for the fun of it.
-
There has been some mention of missing pages in a diary. I immediately think of kindling if a fire was made at all. Too, I think that it makes practical sense to keep the wind at your back. Going to the woods in line with a potential avalanche does not surprise me or them, I believe they knew the area was not avalanche prone when they dug their ledge on the hummock of snow to pitch their tent. They left the tent because they could not use it just then. It was collapsed, they were cold and it was not going to get better. So, it is better to shelter in the woods where there is firewood than to remain in the dark on the slope trying to clear overburden of slab snow, mend poles and attend to injuries while exposed to a katabatic wind. All of that just to re erect a tent they just cut up There is no need to fold in some external human presence to understand the behavior. It seems straightforward. The complication comes from introducing bad actors finding themselves high on a barren slope in the middle of nowhere in the middle of night in the middle of winter with nothing better to do than kill nine people, taking nothing, just for the fun of it.
There was firewood at the tent, according to the reports I have seen and they had a working flashlight, if the one found on top of the tent was theirs, so to walk down to the wet trees instead of getting warm clothing, firewood etc makes no sense to me. It would be much brighter on the slope (there was supposed to be an almost full moon if I'm reading the charts properly) so on a treeless snow covered slope there would be plenty of light to dig out. Moon light walks are a very real thing here in the country so, IMO, they could see on the slope just fine. Its in the trees that the light gets much worse.
There were plenty of trees much closer to them so unless that cedar was a specific target for them, any trees would have given cover and much closer to the tent
I do not believe anyone killed them on the slope. I think it is a cover up and the tent was put there to make sure it was found
I can't understand why anyone would use diary paper for kindling, when there was other paper to be used
-
Once the first bit slides it makes everything above have the possibility to slide.
I think that's a really key part of any credible "avalanche" theory about the Dyatlov Pass Incident. When they tried to clear the snow away, more snow settled downwardly to replace it. You can understand why they'd give up trying to dig out their tent if their digging tools happened to be buried in snow, and if clearing away snow by hand just caused more snow to shift onto their tent.
It's all about how they perceived the danger.
Indeed. I've wondered if the effects of infrasound made them anxious and jumpy, and therefore more likely to panic and abandon their tent.
There was firewood at the tent, according to the reports I have seen and they had a working flashlight, if the one found on top of the tent was theirs, so to walk down to the wet trees instead of getting warm clothing, firewood etc makes no sense to me. It would be much brighter on the slope (there was supposed to be an almost full moon if I'm reading the charts properly) so on a treeless snow covered slope there would be plenty of light to dig out. Moon light walks are a very real thing here in the country so, IMO, they could see on the slope just fine. Its in the trees that the light gets much worse.
There were plenty of trees much closer to them so unless that cedar was a specific target for them, any trees would have given cover and much closer to the tent
I do not believe anyone killed them on the slope. I think it is a cover up and the tent was put there to make sure it was found
I can't understand why anyone would use diary paper for kindling, when there was other paper to be used
I don't believe the moon was going to rise that night until the wee hours of the morning.
At any rate, IIRC, the searchers found a lot of spent matches near the campfire, so it would seem it took a lot of attempts to get the fire going. That's all assuming, of course, that the Dyatlov hikers lit that fire, and that the scene wasn't staged (and I am not sure I accept that assumption).
-
Teddy has just posted the camp at 2600 feet elevation. Any impact on (1) making fire (2) heating water to boil?
-
Teddy has just posted the camp at 2600 feet elevation. Any impact on (1) making fire (2) heating water to boil?
All I could find was:
At a higher elevation, the lower atmospheric pressure means heated water reaches its boiling point more quickly—i.e., at a lower temperature.
It depends on the fuel. Volatile gasses can burn at very high altitudes. Wood for example is hard to keep burning at 12,000 ft ele. Even wood that burns hot and is easy to light will go out easily in high altitudes but would burn like mad in lower elevations.
-
Tennessee, agreed. Good research. It would seem that if a match could be struck, fire,could be made and sustained for a time at that elevation. Do you think the hikers would have even considered building a campfire outside their tent on 1079? Would they do this in the forest? If yes to,either, then the remains of a campsite can not be far removed.
-
I am not sure I understand your question. the issue with the matches, for me, isn't the elevation, its the physical need to have fingers that work to do it and a good supply of kindling or anything to catch.
Yes they would light a fire in the forest, out of the wind and nothing proves they lit the fire. I 100% agree there was a fire, I just don't think they lit it. people did move around that area, and one could easily be lit to make a cover up. I am not sure of anyway to prove who lit the fire
-
2600ft is not high. There's no significant effect on oxygen levels, ability to breathe, boil water, lighting a fire or anything like that. It's practically the same as at sea level.
Now this is embarrassing but regarding lighting a fire, I will say that I have never managed to light a fire in the forest in winter with matches. Fortunately it was always more of a nice to have on camping trips not a need. But every time I tried 4 or 5 times, I failed. Matches would light as normal, but wood would just not catch fire. Freshly chopped or found dead wood... neither works because fresh wood is moist and dead wood in the winter is the same because it got rained on, snowed on, there's ice in the pores of the wood and when you hold a match to it, it melts and makes the wood wet. Summer is different because dry dead wood is abundant.
I've only ever had success using some kind of fire starter liquid, the most low-tech is wax from a candle which kind of works. And of course special products made for this purpose which we had with us most of the time make the task super easy.
-
totally off topic but the best fire starter I have ever carried with me on a trip is dryer lint soak in soya wax. its very easy, lasts a long time as it burns the wax and its very light and waterproof
-
Tenne, apologies for autocorrect calling you Tennessee.
If someone laid a fire before of after the hiker's calamity, it is immaterial. If it was laid during the calamity then the hikers did it or as some posit, the assassins did it. It would be likely that the DP9 would develop some understandable strategy to deal with a human threat, not the least of which would be to leave a written record and photos. If there was no external threat, then their woodsmanship should have come into play...unless Nature won out.
-
I am not sure I understand your question. the issue with the matches, for me, isn't the elevation, its the physical need to have fingers that work to do it and a good supply of kindling or anything to catch.
Yes they would light a fire in the forest, out of the wind and nothing proves they lit the fire. I 100% agree there was a fire, I just don't think they lit it. people did move around that area, and one could easily be lit to make a cover up. I am not sure of anyway to prove who lit the fire
If they left the tent and went to the cedar tree, they certainly lit the fire. Walk barefoot for 40 minutes to the cedar and then don't make a fire there??? This is not possible....After warming up there a bit, they made a plan. Dytlov boldly planned to return to the tent. The two Yuri wanted to stay by the fire. The other four also dug a snow cave. Then came the deaths!!!
-
I am not sure I understand your question. the issue with the matches, for me, isn't the elevation, its the physical need to have fingers that work to do it and a good supply of kindling or anything to catch.
Yes they would light a fire in the forest, out of the wind and nothing proves they lit the fire. I 100% agree there was a fire, I just don't think they lit it. people did move around that area, and one could easily be lit to make a cover up. I am not sure of anyway to prove who lit the fire
If they left the tent and went to the cedar tree, they certainly lit the fire. Walk barefoot for 40 minutes to the cedar and then don't make a fire there??? This is not possible....After warming up there a bit, they made a plan. Dytlov boldly planned to return to the tent. The two Yuri wanted to stay by the fire. The other four also dug a snow cave. Then came the deaths!!!
Can I ask if you have ever tried to light a fire with matches with frozen hands and fingers and in the wet forest?
-
Tenne, apologies for autocorrect calling you Tennessee.
If someone laid a fire before of after the hiker's calamity, it is immaterial. If it was laid during the calamity then the hikers did it or as some posit, the assassins did it. It would be likely that the DP9 would develop some understandable strategy to deal with a human threat, not the least of which would be to leave a written record and photos. If there was no external threat, then their woodsmanship should have come into play...unless Nature won out.
no problem, been called much worse and I kinda like that name. one of the characters in the Woody Harrelson zombie movie was called that.
I do not believe there were assassins, I believe it was an accident and the people who lit the fire were either a part of the cover up or it was there already from a passing Mansi
-
I am not sure I understand your question. the issue with the matches, for me, isn't the elevation, its the physical need to have fingers that work to do it and a good supply of kindling or anything to catch.
Yes they would light a fire in the forest, out of the wind and nothing proves they lit the fire. I 100% agree there was a fire, I just don't think they lit it. people did move around that area, and one could easily be lit to make a cover up. I am not sure of anyway to prove who lit the fire
If they left the tent and went to the cedar tree, they certainly lit the fire. Walk barefoot for 40 minutes to the cedar and then don't make a fire there??? This is not possible....After warming up there a bit, they made a plan. Dytlov boldly planned to return to the tent. The two Yuri wanted to stay by the fire. The other four also dug a snow cave. Then came the deaths!!!
Can I ask if you have ever tried to light a fire with matches with frozen hands and fingers and in the wet forest?
I don't believe the weather is that right.. It must be -10 degrees....So it's not too cold....And dry branches may have been found under the big cedar tree. So it is possible to light a fire..... Of course, I believe that the mansi came after the cedar and they also lit a fire. And they took the two Yuri from the fire and brought them side by side. They didn't say that in the investigation. Because they were facing charges and death.
-
It's never -10 degrees there in January. It's always much colder.
-
They didn't say that in the investigation. Because they were facing charges and death.
Is that the high cost of telling the truth? I could accept Mansi rearranging the bodies, but do you think that really happened? Curious?
-
I am not sure I understand your question. the issue with the matches, for me, isn't the elevation, its the physical need to have fingers that work to do it and a good supply of kindling or anything to catch.
Yes they would light a fire in the forest, out of the wind and nothing proves they lit the fire. I 100% agree there was a fire, I just don't think they lit it. people did move around that area, and one could easily be lit to make a cover up. I am not sure of anyway to prove who lit the fire
If they left the tent and went to the cedar tree, they certainly lit the fire. Walk barefoot for 40 minutes to the cedar and then don't make a fire there??? This is not possible....After warming up there a bit, they made a plan. Dytlov boldly planned to return to the tent. The two Yuri wanted to stay by the fire. The other four also dug a snow cave. Then came the deaths!!!
Can I ask if you have ever tried to light a fire with matches with frozen hands and fingers and in the wet forest?
I don't believe the weather is that right.. It must be -10 degrees....So it's not too cold....And dry branches may have been found under the big cedar tree. So it is possible to light a fire..... Of course, I believe that the mansi came after the cedar and they also lit a fire. And they took the two Yuri from the fire and brought them side by side. They didn't say that in the investigation. Because they were facing charges and death.
@ilahiyol. What is the range tempature, how does wood that been dead wood that's absorbed water in the wetter months, then frozen with moisture in its body burn? Its the months before that count to what can burn. They mention it in their diaries that the wood they got given in the hut took an age to heat their food. It is a poor assumption to think dead wood on the ground will easily burn. If it's been wet, then it freezes with water in it , you may as well trying to set fire to water. It's the ceder branches that they broke that's the most likely to burn and give heat.
-
They didn't say that in the investigation. Because they were facing charges and death.
Is that the high cost of telling the truth? I could accept Mansi rearranging the bodies, but do you think that really happened? Curious?
Unknown coercive force attacked them and they should all have died in about half an hour for the same time. In this case, it is not possible for a group of 4 to buy clothes from two Yuri. In this case, the mansi must have taken off their clothes. But according to a second scenario, after the two Yuri's were killed, the coercive force attacked the group of 3 on the mountainside. This attack must have lasted about 15 minutes. During this 15-minute period, the group of 4 may have wanted to buy clothes from two Yuri. This is possible, but I think this possibility is much less.
-
I am not sure I understand your question. the issue with the matches, for me, isn't the elevation, its the physical need to have fingers that work to do it and a good supply of kindling or anything to catch.
Yes they would light a fire in the forest, out of the wind and nothing proves they lit the fire. I 100% agree there was a fire, I just don't think they lit it. people did move around that area, and one could easily be lit to make a cover up. I am not sure of anyway to prove who lit the fire
If they left the tent and went to the cedar tree, they certainly lit the fire. Walk barefoot for 40 minutes to the cedar and then don't make a fire there??? This is not possible....After warming up there a bit, they made a plan. Dytlov boldly planned to return to the tent. The two Yuri wanted to stay by the fire. The other four also dug a snow cave. Then came the deaths!!!
Can I ask if you have ever tried to light a fire with matches with frozen hands and fingers and in the wet forest?
I don't believe the weather is that right.. It must be -10 degrees....So it's not too cold....And dry branches may have been found under the big cedar tree. So it is possible to light a fire..... Of course, I believe that the mansi came after the cedar and they also lit a fire. And they took the two Yuri from the fire and brought them side by side. They didn't say that in the investigation. Because they were facing charges and death.
@ilahiyol. What is the range tempature, how does wood that been dead wood that's absorbed water in the wetter months, then frozen with moisture in its body burn? Its the months before that count to what can burn. They mention it in their diaries that the wood they got given in the hut took an age to heat their food. It is a poor assumption to think dead wood on the ground will easily burn. If it's been wet, then it freezes with water in it , you may as well trying to set fire to water. It's the ceder branches that they broke that's the most likely to burn and give heat.
It is always possible to find dry branches in the forest. Yes, they are a little difficult to burn, but after starting the first fire, other wet branches begin to dry immediately. Dead tree branches can always be found. Especially around a big tree there are many of them. Their choice of cedar wood was for both easy fire-making and surveillance.
-
It's never -10 degrees there in January. It's always much colder.
Yes, it's always below zero at night, but you don't know for sure how many degrees it is. You don't know if it's -10 or -20. Experiment can be done easily..... At the end of January and beginning of February, measurements are made in the evening hours of 10 days and results can be obtained easily.
-
I am not sure I understand your question. the issue with the matches, for me, isn't the elevation, its the physical need to have fingers that work to do it and a good supply of kindling or anything to catch.
Yes they would light a fire in the forest, out of the wind and nothing proves they lit the fire. I 100% agree there was a fire, I just don't think they lit it. people did move around that area, and one could easily be lit to make a cover up. I am not sure of anyway to prove who lit the fire
If they left the tent and went to the cedar tree, they certainly lit the fire. Walk barefoot for 40 minutes to the cedar and then don't make a fire there??? This is not possible....After warming up there a bit, they made a plan. Dytlov boldly planned to return to the tent. The two Yuri wanted to stay by the fire. The other four also dug a snow cave. Then came the deaths!!!
Can I ask if you have ever tried to light a fire with matches with frozen hands and fingers and in the wet forest?
I don't believe the weather is that right.. It must be -10 degrees....So it's not too cold....And dry branches may have been found under the big cedar tree. So it is possible to light a fire..... Of course, I believe that the mansi came after the cedar and they also lit a fire. And they took the two Yuri from the fire and brought them side by side. They didn't say that in the investigation. Because they were facing charges and death.
@ilahiyol. What is the range tempature, how does wood that been dead wood that's absorbed water in the wetter months, then frozen with moisture in its body burn? Its the months before that count to what can burn. They mention it in their diaries that the wood they got given in the hut took an age to heat their food. It is a poor assumption to think dead wood on the ground will easily burn. If it's been wet, then it freezes with water in it , you may as well trying to set fire to water. It's the ceder branches that they broke that's the most likely to burn and give heat.
It is always possible to find dry branches in the forest. Yes, they are a little difficult to burn, but after starting the first fire, other wet branches begin to dry immediately. Dead tree branches can always be found. Especially around a big tree there are many of them. Their choice of cedar wood was for both easy fire-making and surveillance.
I disagree. Dead wood that has frozen water in it,. Is like pouring water on your own fire. There's many dead wood that is absolutely useless.
-
I am not sure I understand your question. the issue with the matches, for me, isn't the elevation, its the physical need to have fingers that work to do it and a good supply of kindling or anything to catch.
Yes they would light a fire in the forest, out of the wind and nothing proves they lit the fire. I 100% agree there was a fire, I just don't think they lit it. people did move around that area, and one could easily be lit to make a cover up. I am not sure of anyway to prove who lit the fire
If they left the tent and went to the cedar tree, they certainly lit the fire. Walk barefoot for 40 minutes to the cedar and then don't make a fire there??? This is not possible....After warming up there a bit, they made a plan. Dytlov boldly planned to return to the tent. The two Yuri wanted to stay by the fire. The other four also dug a snow cave. Then came the deaths!!!
Can I ask if you have ever tried to light a fire with matches with frozen hands and fingers and in the wet forest?
I don't believe the weather is that right.. It must be -10 degrees....So it's not too cold....And dry branches may have been found under the big cedar tree. So it is possible to light a fire..... Of course, I believe that the mansi came after the cedar and they also lit a fire. And they took the two Yuri from the fire and brought them side by side. They didn't say that in the investigation. Because they were facing charges and death.
@ilahiyol. What is the range tempature, how does wood that been dead wood that's absorbed water in the wetter months, then frozen with moisture in its body burn? Its the months before that count to what can burn. They mention it in their diaries that the wood they got given in the hut took an age to heat their food. It is a poor assumption to think dead wood on the ground will easily burn. If it's been wet, then it freezes with water in it , you may as well trying to set fire to water. It's the ceder branches that they broke that's the most likely to burn and give heat.
It is always possible to find dry branches in the forest. Yes, they are a little difficult to burn, but after starting the first fire, other wet branches begin to dry immediately. Dead tree branches can always be found. Especially around a big tree there are many of them. Their choice of cedar wood was for both easy fire-making and surveillance.
I disagree. Dead wood that has frozen water in it,. Is like pouring water on your own fire. There's many dead wood that is absolutely useless.
You are speaking illogically. Your opinion is: "No fire can be lit in the forest in winter." Such a thought cannot exist. Because fire was lit many times by people in the forest in winter. Yes it is difficult but not impossible.
-
"You are speaking illogically. Your opinion is: "No fire can be lit in the forest in winter." Such a thought cannot exist. Because fire was lit many times by people in the forest in winter. Yes it is difficult but not impossible"
Then we have no disagreement. But we should not assume, dead "wet" wood on the ground will burn , especially if it's been left out all through the seasons?
It is not ,no fire can be lit but there is a tipping point. Clothing can burn , easily, if it's dry. Put that clothing in water , then try to to light it? It won't burn,It's why out door survival skill and knowledge exist..
-
It's never -10 degrees there in January. It's always much colder.
Yes, it's always below zero at night, but you don't know for sure how many degrees it is. You don't know if it's -10 or -20. Experiment can be done easily..... At the end of January and beginning of February, measurements are made in the evening hours of 10 days and results can be obtained easily.
Where and what are the results? What's the warmest temperature recorded at the pass in January?
-
It's never -10 degrees there in January. It's always much colder.
Yes, it's always below zero at night, but you don't know for sure how many degrees it is. You don't know if it's -10 or -20. Experiment can be done easily..... At the end of January and beginning of February, measurements are made in the evening hours of 10 days and results can be obtained easily.
Where and what are the results? What's the warmest temperature recorded at the pass in January?
Buna göre Ocak/Şubat ayında çadır konumunda -5C ile -35C arasında herhangi bir yerde olabilir , aşırı, ancak günlük ortalamalar -15 ile -23C arasındadır. Bunlar gece sıcaklıkları....Gündüz sıcaklıkları için bunlara yaklaşık +10 derece koymalısınız.