November 29, 2020, 11:21:50 PM
Dyatlov Pass Forum

Author Topic: Infrasound? Most unlikely.  (Read 18728 times)

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December 28, 2019, 01:23:07 PM
Reply #90
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
My answer written was gone 2 days ago. I should repeat it


For one, the jiu jitsu elbow strikes would be expected to cause precisely such injuries as found on the rib cages of the two who suffered this kind of injury.

Do not tell obvious nonsense. If you have clung to these conjectures that it unequivocally shows that you do not understand the mechanic. Do not understand at all.
Count please (if you it allows you scientific level) localisation of pressure from «an elbow joint», points of the greatest pressure in edges, and with what speed should strike «an elbow joint». At all without considering possible reaction striking about a substrate and clothes reaction.
Still nobody could cancel Newton's third law.
And if you not in a condition such to make, and it is not necessary to tell the first got to a head (excuse for this word) "thought". It has not something in common with the validity.
Demolition of edges simultaneously from two parties and in those places where they are described by the expert, could be only at reaction with a platform of the big size. Большей than the area of a thorax. If you and it do not understand, in general it is better not to tell anything on this theme.
This direct consequence from mechanics of crises how them describe. If you do not understand it, it is rather a pity that you say wrong words of that you do not have not enough scientific preparation and you tell obvious nonsense.

[....]

Prove you assumption!
That says what it was murder? You can list on points signs and the facts from documents?
Or you consider, what everything about what you do not know are can always be only murder?
You can result nothing in this respect, except conjectures and is weaved any. It is because you do not have real and actual material, and all of you replace only with the imaginations.
But not it is the most important thing. The most important thing is that you cannot result and really prove the reason for this purpose that them have killed. And without this reason all conversations on "murder" mean nothing. It simply words for which is no point.

[....]

Your persuasive attempt by all ways to translate attention from usual accident on murder involuntarily reduces all to conspirology. You do not accept any arguments and calculations in a unique science which can yield result - to the biomechanic, instead of it constantly repeating the same mantra: it was murder! Without resulting any arguments in a substantiation. About that there is no reason and possibility it to make on that place, you start to say that the district here is not necessary. Tell, please, and if it was on the North Pole, it too would be insignificant?


First: Why all this intense aggression?

Then: Newton's third law only says that for every physical action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Sorry, but I have to tell bluntly that there is nothing in Newton's law that contradicts the obvious fact that the injuries found on the nine bodies are all completely consistent with human attack by force. Please refrain from invective, because foul language and accusations of conspiracy thinking only shows that the originator of such language has a rather weak case.

It is true that for every physical action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. These reactions create impacts that lead to injury and death, when force strikes human bodies as was demonstrably the case in the Dyatlov pass tragedy. I must repeat that there is no difficulty for a human trained in close combat to crush rib cages by elbow strikes. The great force of which a trained killer is capable of generating, is more than enough to cause the injuries of Dubinina and Zolotaryov.

Also, let us point out a major error in reasoning:

"But not it is the most important thing. The most important thing is that you cannot result and really prove the reason for this purpose that them have killed. And without this reason all conversations on "murder" mean nothing. It simply words for which is no point."

Comment to the above:

Written into more fluent English, the above sentence states that "the most important thing is that you cannot really prove the reason for why they were killed." - Unfortunately, that is a truly fundamentally erroneous approach.

The question is this: When one, two, nine or more bodies are found, what should then be done?

Should we first ask: "Is there a clear motive for anyone to have caused these deaths?" and then dismiss the possibility of murder unless there is an obvious motive which is found immediately?

Or, should we rather ask: "What was the cause of these deaths, and how can we ascertain the cause of death?"

Of course, the latter approach is the only sensible and scientifically acceptable one. We must first and foremost find out the cause of death, in order to then investigate further into the matter.

Lastly, the infrasound theory is just a little bit less speculative than the aliens theory. After all, infrasound does exist. But there is no experimental of empirical evidence that infrasound can compel nine intelligent and healthy human beings to lose their senses completely in the same way and simultaneously. We can safely put the infrasound theory to rest.

Have you ever been involved in any Court Case in a Court Of Law  ?  All the evidence is presented and the outline of the known events and then you get cracking on trying to solve the Case.
DB

February 11, 2020, 09:04:32 AM
Reply #91
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Per Inge Oestmoen


Have you ever been involved in any Court Case in a Court Of Law  ?  All the evidence is presented and the outline of the known events and then you get cracking on trying to solve the Case.


Yes, I have been present in two long court cases. But these cases were not about homicide.

We are however not close to a court case here. Before a trial, evidence has to be produced.

I assure you, the first thing that has to be done of a corpse (or several) are found is to ascertain the cause of death. That is how investigation starts, in order to find evidence.

Investigators do not ask whether there is an obvious motive for murder, and then conclude that the death(s) are natural unless there is an obvioius motive.

They start with a thorough examination of the dead person(s), with the purpose of finding the exact cause of death.

In this case, that was not done. On the contrary, there were orders from Moscow that the investigation must conclude that the Dyatlov group perished from an accident. But that was not the case. 

February 13, 2020, 11:37:32 AM
Reply #92
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Have you ever been involved in any Court Case in a Court Of Law  ?  All the evidence is presented and the outline of the known events and then you get cracking on trying to solve the Case.


Yes, I have been present in two long court cases. But these cases were not about homicide.

We are however not close to a court case here. Before a trial, evidence has to be produced.

I assure you, the first thing that has to be done of a corpse (or several) are found is to ascertain the cause of death. That is how investigation starts, in order to find evidence.

Investigators do not ask whether there is an obvious motive for murder, and then conclude that the death(s) are natural unless there is an obvioius motive.

They start with a thorough examination of the dead person(s), with the purpose of finding the exact cause of death.

In this case, that was not done. On the contrary, there were orders from Moscow that the investigation must conclude that the Dyatlov group perished from an accident. But that was not the case.

I dont know which Country you were in Court. In England it matters not what the offence is. A Jury will go about it the same way, ie, they will be presented with the outline of the case, and depending on the facts it could be a very detailed outline. Eventually as the Trial proceeds evidence will be presented in Court.
DB

October 11, 2020, 02:16:20 AM
Reply #93
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Per Inge Oestmoen



I dont know which Country you were in Court. In England it matters not what the offence is. A Jury will go about it the same way, ie, they will be presented with the outline of the case, and depending on the facts it could be a very detailed outline. Eventually as the Trial proceeds evidence will be presented in Court.


In this case, all of the available evidence was not considered, and the case was shut down with an officially dictated conclusion. Which unequivocally tells us that the official conclusion - then and now - is state-mandated and wrong.

October 13, 2020, 02:40:20 PM
Reply #94
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient

I dont know which Country you were in Court. In England it matters not what the offence is. A Jury will go about it the same way, ie, they will be presented with the outline of the case, and depending on the facts it could be a very detailed outline. Eventually as the Trial proceeds evidence will be presented in Court.


In this case, all of the available evidence was not considered, and the case was shut down with an officially dictated conclusion. Which unequivocally tells us that the official conclusion - then and now - is state-mandated and wrong.

Well there does appear to be missing evidence and the way that the search was conducted leaves a lot to be desired. Along with the Autopsies that appear to fall short of thorough. Imagine being in a Court of Law and having to decide what happened given this inadequate case material. Impossible I would say.
DB

October 18, 2020, 03:05:21 PM
Reply #95
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Jean Daniel Reuss



   Reply #94
..............................
Well there does appear to be missing evidence and the way that the search was conducted leaves a lot to be desired. Along with the Autopsies that appear to fall short of thorough. Imagine being in a Court of Law and having to decide what happened given this inadequate case material. Impossible I would say.

 • Researches for the reconstitution of the DPI are now clearly historical researches that should not be constrained by any legal considerations.

 • Indeed, scientific and historical research calls upon all the resources of human reason which are often incompatible with particular and sometimes even tendentious legislation.

 • If you want to find one or more plausible explanations to the DPI, you should not imagine yourself in a court of law, nor should you be concerned about the legality of the evidence or clues.

           Reply #88
.................
It is not credible that the traumas and deaths were due to natural causes. We should consider all the injuries as described in the autopsy reports available on this site.
............
As for the infrasound theory: The infrasound theory is just a hair less fantastic than the Yeti and aliens theories. Infrasound definitely disturb humans, but we are talking about nine resourceful human beings who leave their tent during the winter night with no proper clothing.
..............
 There is absolutely no scientific reason or empirical support to the theory that it happened in this case.


Part 1

As Per Inge Oestmoen, I think it is extremely unlikely that the DPI could have been caused by infrasounds

Dyatlov's group was a homogeneous and coherent group of 9 sportsmen and women trained in winter conditions, in perfect physical and mental conditions.
The hikers only encountered bad weather that was normally predictable and they were not tired having made (wisely) short stages.
In a word, the group's margin of safety was huge.

One factor that seems not to have been emphasized is that, living in Siberia in the 1940s and 1960s, hikers were acclimatized to the cold. Also for hiking the food provided seems to have been abundant.

That is to say, to keep to an order of magnitude estimate, I can assume that each had a digestive system capable of assimilating a food ration of 6,200 kilocalories per day.
So each hiker had an average power (thermal and mechanical) of 300 watts, (and not 100 watts as in the case of a city dweller in 2020).

At night, in the small tent where they were huddled together, there was the equivalent of a 9×300 = 2700 watts radiant heater.

As a result, even without using the stove, the temperature inside the tent was significantly higher than outside.

Little by little, under the influence of Eduard Tumanov and Per Inge Oestmoen...and others, I am moving towards solutions involving the action of attackers. These are solutions that have the tremendous advantage of being able to explain all the findings currently available. Thus, for example, it was the attackers who obviously cut the tent canvas on the morning of February 2, 1959, before quietly leaving for Vizhay or Settlement 41.


Part 2

The DPI fits easily and naturally into the history of the Khrushchev thaw period (1953-1964).
The DPI is typically an ordinary attack of a terrorist nature, resulting from the dismantling of the Gulag wanted by Khrushchev, one consequence of which was the purging of Stalinist NKVD(=MVD + MGB after 1946) personnel  by KGB agents.

Reminders :
          Death of Stalin: 5 March 1953.   
          Creation of the KGB: 13 March 1953.
          Arrest of Beria, head of the NKVD: 26 June 1953.

Acceleration of destalinisation by the secret speech, 25 February 1956, to the 20th CPSU (Congress of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union).
          Death sentence on Boris Rodos: 26 February 1956
      21st CPSU: 27th January to 5th February 1959
      Dyatlov's group truck journey from Vizhay (13:10) to settlement 41 (16:30): 26 January 1959
 See :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De-Stalinization
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Soviet_Union_(1953%E2%80%931964)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KGB
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NKVD

A terrorist attack is a strategy in civil psychological warfare that had been frequently used in Russia as early as the 19th century; for example, the attacks from Narodnaya Volya that caused the death of Alexander II on 1 March 1881.

The terrorist attack is generally characterised by :
  Surprise and unpredictability
  Its effectiveness is due to the contrast between the smallness of the necessary means and the importance of the consequences, which are, however, often unexpected and sometimes even counterproductive. (cf. heterotelistic activity).

It is necessary to stress that a terrorist attack can either be prepared for a long time by a powerful organisation or, on the contrary, be spontaneously improvised by a single determined individual.

It would take a specialised historical study to know to what extent the DPI attack could have contributed to the fall of Khrushchev on 13 October 1964, to whom Brezhnev and his cronies blamed the disastrous consequences of the dismantling of Gulag carried out without sufficient precautions.

             The DPI is a small episode in the struggle of the NKVD Stalinists against the thaw of Khrushchev. The message that was thus sent to the Kremlin was: beware, do not tackle us, because we are ready to do absolutely everything to defend ourselves and preserve our privileges.


Part 3

Aleks Kandr proposes a complete reconstruction of the DPI which I believe is probable and from which I have drawn a great deal of inspiration.

It is not prisoners (zeks) who escaped from the Ivdellag camps, nor ex-zeks, who are suspected, but on the contrary guards (or ex-guards) of the Gulag camps in the Vizhay region.

They were therefore civil servants, which explains the cover-up of the thruth both by Khrushchev's government and also by Putin's present government.

An NKVD commanding officer, frightened by the consequences of the 20 th and 21 th CPSU,  had hired 3 Gulag camp guards specialised in the pursuit and destruction of the zeks who had escaped from the camps.

 See in Russian (I use Yandex translate) :

http://mystery12home.ru/t-ub-gr-dyatlova
http://mystery12home.ru/t-ub-gr-dyatlova-2
http://mystery12home.ru/t-ub-gr-dyatlova-3
   https://taina.li/forum/index.php?topic=1002.0
   https://taina.li/forum/index.php?topic=12235.0
   https://taina.li/forum/index.php?topic=14852.0


Part 4

         WHY  :  Examples of moral depravity among some Gulag camp guards. 

Mistreatment and torture (encouraged by Joseph Stalin himself) perpetrated by some guards in the Gulag camps.
              Examples reported and drawn by Danzig Baldaev (1925-2005).

The drawings that Baldaev made when he was an official of the Soviet penitentiary administration (NKVD), give for the first time the opportunity to have a picture of the ordinary functioning of the Soviet camps, precisely in their most terrible and most violent aspects.
...obviously there was some persent of sadists among NKVD personnel
  ( law enforcement, army and service in penetenciary system attract more % of sadists then ordinary proffessions as it is proved by psychologists) .........
Danzig Baldaev was a camp gard (NKVD officer) of the Gulag. Denounced to the KGB, he was surprisingly allowed to continue to publish his drawings.
   See :
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/oct/17/drawings-gulag-danzig-baldaev-review
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0956356249/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_bibl_vppi_i2


Part 5

       WHO  :  An example of a client (commander) that might look like the initiator of the DPI.

The commander ( mastermind, client..) was a Stalinist officer of the NKVD whose situation had some similarities with that of Boris Rodos (1905-1955).
Boris Rodos built an extraordinary career as a torturer and executioner in Soviet dictator Josef Stalin's dreaded secret police, the NKVD.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_Rodos
https://russian7.ru/post/boris-rodos-chto-stalo-s-samym-zhestokim/
https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-rodos-stalinist-executioner-son-nkvd-stalin/28249918.html

NKVD torturer and executioner Boris Rodos was sentenced to death one day after being denounced by Nikita Khruschev in his secret de-Stalinization speech of 1956.

Rodos was arrested in October 1953, sentenced to death on February 26, 1956, and was executed on 20 April 1956.


Part 6

       HOW   :  Some salient aspects of the "Altercation on the pass".

The hikers had (too) talked to Vizhay and Settlement 41 and the future attackers knew approximately where the hikers were going.

North-2 was quickly reachable by truck or sled and could serve as a shelter for an intermediate stage from which the attackers could rush.

     
The track left by the hickers in the snow is easy to follow and starting from North-2, it was possible to reach the tent in less than a day's skiing.

         
     
There was an attack by a trinome of Gulag camp guards who were specialised in the hunting down and killing of fugitive zeks and who were accustomed to some impressive mutilations of corpses.

The precipitous escape from the tent without holding the axes and the ice axe can result :

   a) Either a tear gas grenade introduced by surprise inside the tent.

   b) Or more likely a classic war trick of which I gave an example in an answer to WAB 
==>    Theories Discussion > General Discussion > Question List => September 22, 2020, 09:43:24 AM,  Reply #21
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=717.msg10826#msg10826

The trinome of mercenaries attackers had no firearms, which explains why it took them several hours to defeat the 9 hikers.

In a night hand-to-hand combat a great advantage of using a blunt object wrapped in rags is that it makes it possible to dicretly and silently, or almost silently, stun any victim who strays a little from the group.

At the level of the cedar it is possible that the most politically aware (Thibo, Kolevatov, Zolotatariov) preferred to hide in the Den protecting Dubinina,
while the remaining (3?, 4?, 5?) others opted to light a fire as a priority.

    The rib fractures can be explained by funny trampoline demonstrations on the elastic thoracic cages of the agonizing people ;
 ( 80 kg falling from 3 meters ==> 2400 joules).


 
  Planned continuation at
  Altercation on the pass > Altercation on the pass
 https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=411.30
Jean Daniel Reuss

Rational guidance =

• There is nothing supernatural and mysterious about the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group. They are all consistent with an attack by a group of professional killers who wanted to take the lives of the nine  [Per Inge Oestmoen].

• Now let us search for answers to: WHO ? WHY ? HOW ?

• The scenario must be consistent with the historical, political and psychological  contexts.

• The solution takes in consideration all known findings.

October 20, 2020, 03:30:10 PM
Reply #96
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sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient
Jean Daniel Reuss. The way a Criminal Investigation takes place is very important for the final outcome. In the Dyatlov Case we do not have a final outcome because it hasnt been proved exactly what happened. In other words, any Investigation that has taken place since 1959 has failed to give us the exact reason for the demise of the Dyatlov Group. Therefore it follows that if any Investigation findings were put into a Court of Law it would be impossible for a Jury or Judges to come to a final decision. The same applies to Civil Investigations, its very important that the Investigation is carried out properly. This Forum and the Web Site that Teddy has created allows anyone to have their say on what they think may or may not have happened since, and including, the actual event in 1959. The fact is that we still do not have enough Information to be able to say exactly what happened. Simple as that. Plenty of room for speculation. But thats all it is, speculation. The initial Investigation in 1959, had some very serious flaws. And as a result of that we are where we are today. If any thing is being held back by the Russian Authorities then there must be a very good reason for that.
DB

October 28, 2020, 02:27:35 AM
Reply #97
Offline

Per Inge Oestmoen


Jean Daniel Reuss. The way a Criminal Investigation takes place is very important for the final outcome. In the Dyatlov Case we do not have a final outcome because it hasnt been proved exactly what happened. In other words, any Investigation that has taken place since 1959 has failed to give us the exact reason for the demise of the Dyatlov Group. Therefore it follows that if any Investigation findings were put into a Court of Law it would be impossible for a Jury or Judges to come to a final decision. The same applies to Civil Investigations, its very important that the Investigation is carried out properly. This Forum and the Web Site that Teddy has created allows anyone to have their say on what they think may or may not have happened since, and including, the actual event in 1959. The fact is that we still do not have enough Information to be able to say exactly what happened. Simple as that. Plenty of room for speculation. But thats all it is, speculation. The initial Investigation in 1959, had some very serious flaws. And as a result of that we are where we are today. If any thing is being held back by the Russian Authorities then there must be a very good reason for that.

Dear Sarapuk.

What you say is absolutely correct. A court of law must establish guilt beyond reasonable doubt in order to conclude with a verdict of guilt. Without a proper investigation, there simply is insufficient material to do that.

This does not alter the fact that the Dyatlov Pass tragedy and the way the nine students died is consistent with an intelligently planned and brilliantly planned operation by professional, trained killers. Professional killers, as opposed to common criminals, usually create "accidents," "heart attacks" and "suicides." In this case the killers forced the nine victims out from their tent, supposing that the cold would to the rest. However, since the temperature was relatively mild in the area during the night of February 2 the nine did not die as soon as planned. Hence, a forceful action was needed. Knowing that putting the bodies in closed coffins or just make the nine disappear without trace would make it obvious what happened, the killers made sure that firearms were not used. Since the attackers were certainly highly competent in close combat techniques, they knew what to do. The damages are typical of what is to be expected from an attack by special forces operators.

Even the local Mansi people who must have been aware what happened were silenced in a very intelligent way: The local Mansi were first told that they were suspected, and then suddenly they were told that it was found that the tent had been cut from the inside (and no scientific report ever established this), so that they were no longer under investigation. That way, the unspoken message was conveyed:

"We let you off the hook for now, but be aware that we can fabricate any evidence and will do if you ever tell other people what you know." 

There was no proper criminal investigation back in 1959, and the reason was that authorities in Moscow prevented a thorough investigation. The conclusion that the tragedy was a mere accident was therefore mandated by Moscow.

There is no doubt that the state authorities in Moscow, including the state security agencies, had every reason to hide the reality of what happened.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2020, 02:42:46 AM by Per Inge Oestmoen »

October 28, 2020, 02:30:05 AM
Reply #98
Offline

Per Inge Oestmoen


Just a detail that illustrates how the available forensic evidence was distorted from the start:

In https://dyatlovpass.com/death?flp=1#Thibeaux the lethal injury to the head of Thibeaux-Brignolle is misrepresented this way:

Q: "From what kind of force could Thibeaux-Brignolle have received such injury?"

A: "In the conclusion, it’s shown the damage to Thibeaux-Brignolle’s head could have been the result of the throwing, fall or jettisoning of the body. I don’t believe these injuries could have been the result of Thibeaux-Brignolle simply falling from the level of his own height, i.e. falling and hitting his head. The extensive, depressed, multi-splintered (broken fornix and base of the skull) fracture could be the result of an impact of an automobile moving at high speed. This kind of trauma could have occurred if Thibeaux-Brignolle had been thrown and fallen and hit his head against rocks, ice, etc., by a gust of strong wind."

Q: "Is it possible that Thibeaux-Brignolle was hit by a rock that was in someone’s hand?"

A: "In this case, there would have been damage to the soft tissue, and this was not evident."
----

- It is stated that an impact from a blow would damage the soft tissue. That statement is incorrect, because the victim's head was protected by headgear.

- The damage to his head, and even the shape of the injury, is consistent with a very hard blow with a rifle butt. There is every reason to believe that this is exactly what happened.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2020, 02:40:13 AM by Per Inge Oestmoen »

October 28, 2020, 03:58:44 PM
Reply #99
Offline

Jean Daniel Reuss




.......................Reply #96.................................

I understand your point of view. You are right when you say if any Investigation findings were put into a Court of Law it would be impossible for a Jury or Judges to come to a final decision.

But it seems - one has the right to think - that the Russian authorities - whether under the regime of Nikita Khrushchev or under Vladimir Putin - have a strong willingness to hide the truth about the DPI.

It is even possible that by deliberately pronouncing manifestly implausible conclusions (Compelling or overwhelming force: 1959 - avalanche: 2019) Russian lawyers associated with the DPI case are trying to make us (Russian public opinion and international opinion) understand that they cannot say anything about DPI since they are civil servants with obligations to their government.

Before worrying about bringing the case to a Russian court of law we should first get clearer and more precise ideas about the outlines of some complete and plausible scenarios.

The initial Investigation in 1959, had some very serious flaws: That is right, but after 21 years this investigation cannot be redone.

Moreover the construction of coherent solutions by means of what you call pure and useless speculation seems to you to be a dead-end research path.

So what do you propose?

For my part:
  •  I notice that the recent clarifications that have appeared on this site about Zolotariov's life could weaken the Rakitin-type scenarios that involve appointments of foreign spies because Zolotariov was not appreciated by the Soviet authorities, see :
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=734.0
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=725.0

  •  The search for additional information should be broadened by carefully scrutinizing the major Russian forums like : "https://taina.li/"   which is (very) long but possible even when you ignore the Russian language with automatic translators like : "https://translate.yandex.com"


...................Reply #97..............................

Dear Per Inge Oestmoen, I had carefully read your first 180 posts, (March 12, 2018 <--> March 07, 2020) and thanks to you, I was gradually convinced that the most likely explanation for DPI is the attack of a murder commando.

However, I think that your suspicions are heading in the wrong direction when you suspect that the hikers had witnessed activities that were state secrets and therefore that the murderers belonged to the KGB.

  •  No serious intelligence service kills suspects (intruders...)  before it has questioned them at length and systematically.

  •  The KGB was renowned for its efficiency and had no scruples about killing the intruders (enemies of the people), but only after imprisoning them in suitable facilities so that they could be methodically tortured. Because the KGB wanted to know everything: accomplices, inspirators, relatives, friends, relations, etc.

  •  The Auspiya Valley and the Kholat Syakhl were little frequented areas but nevertheless often traveled by different people: Mansi hunters, geologists, foresters, loggers, hikers, prospectors...

  •  Secrets that must be preserved are found in guarded locations, safe deposit boxes, guarded workshops...
They are written texts revealing technical specifications, detailed descriptions of manufacturing processes, possibly prototypes of new devices that it is risky to carry far away in a simple rucksack ..........

  •  The evolution of an extraordinary secret prototype aircraft or missile, appearing in the skies or on the ground of the Kholat Saykhl, would not have implied the immediate killing of members of the elite of Soviet youth, but on the contrary would have required extensive interrogations.

  •  In a word, no important secrets could be noticed by the hikers between January 26 or 28 and February 1.
On the contrary, the DPI was a serious failure for the KGB, which proved to be incapable of protecting the hikers.

Jean Daniel Reuss

Rational guidance =

• There is nothing supernatural and mysterious about the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group. They are all consistent with an attack by a group of professional killers who wanted to take the lives of the nine  [Per Inge Oestmoen].

• Now let us search for answers to: WHO ? WHY ? HOW ?

• The scenario must be consistent with the historical, political and psychological  contexts.

• The solution takes in consideration all known findings.

October 30, 2020, 08:13:41 AM
Reply #100
Offline

Per Inge Oestmoen




...................Reply #97..............................

Dear Per Inge Oestmoen, I had carefully read your first 180 posts, (March 12, 2018 <--> March 07, 2020) and thanks to you, I was gradually convinced that the most likely explanation for DPI is the attack of a murder commando.

However, I think that your suspicions are heading in the wrong direction when you suspect that the hikers had witnessed activities that were state secrets and therefore that the murderers belonged to the KGB.

  •  No serious intelligence service kills suspects (intruders...)  before it has questioned them at length and systematically.

  •  The KGB was renowned for its efficiency and had no scruples about killing the intruders (enemies of the people), but only after imprisoning them in suitable facilities so that they could be methodically tortured. Because the KGB wanted to know everything: accomplices, inspirators, relatives, friends, relations, etc.

  •  The Auspiya Valley and the Kholat Syakhl were little frequented areas but nevertheless often traveled by different people: Mansi hunters, geologists, foresters, loggers, hikers, prospectors...

  •  Secrets that must be preserved are found in guarded locations, safe deposit boxes, guarded workshops...
They are written texts revealing technical specifications, detailed descriptions of manufacturing processes, possibly prototypes of new devices that it is risky to carry far away in a simple rucksack ..........

  •  The evolution of an extraordinary secret prototype aircraft or missile, appearing in the skies or on the ground of the Kholat Saykhl, would not have implied the immediate killing of members of the elite of Soviet youth, but on the contrary would have required extensive interrogations.

  •  In a word, no important secrets could be noticed by the hikers between January 26 or 28 and February 1.
On the contrary, the DPI was a serious failure for the KGB, which proved to be incapable of protecting the hikers.


Dear Jean Daniel Reuss:

Thank you for your good and definitely welcome replies. Permit me to add some comments below.

- There is no doubt that a close scrutiny of the material available demonstrates that only the attack of other human beings, and then more than likely special forces operators, can fully explain the deaths and injuries of the nine students. All the injuries are consistent with human attack, and an attack is the only possible explanation for what happened.

- However, I have to point out some misunderstandings. These misunderstandings are understandable, and by pointing them out one by one my intention in no way implies any denigration or impoliteness.

1. "No serious intelligence service kills suspects (intruders...)  before it has questioned them at length and systematically."

- That is mistaken. The nine students were never suspects. In fact, they were on all accounts loyal Soviet citizens. At the same time, they were resourceful people who seem to have been at the wrong place at the wrong time. Since they were intelligent humans, they would understand what they observed. If, and it is likely that they did observe something secret, there would be a high risk that some of these nine would divulge the state secret to some future friends, lovers, spouses or children. The Soviet state could not accept such a risk. Thus, the students were never suspected of anything, but supposedly witnessed some secret state activity that potentially would pose a risk if what they observed ever became known. For this reason, it was necessary to eliminate the nine students. No interrogation or questioning was required in order to perform a preventive killing operation to remove the risk.

2. "The KGB was renowned for its efficiency and had no scruples about killing the intruders (enemies of the people), but only after imprisoning them in suitable facilities so that they could be methodically tortured. Because the KGB wanted to know everything: accomplices, inspirators, relatives, friends, relations, etc."

- Yes and No. In this case, No.
The students were no enemies of the people, and they were not suspects. It is true that the KGB possessed high competence in interrogating humans and make them confess everything or to tell everything. Absolutely.

However, the KGB was also experts in orchestrating "suicides," "accidents" "heart attacks" and other "natural deaths." Countless people died because the KGB was ordered to remove people who were or could possibly become threats to state security. Many of these deaths were made to look like "accidents," "suicides" or "natural deaths."

3. "The Auspiya Valley and the Kholat Syakhl were little frequented areas but nevertheless often traveled by different people: Mansi hunters, geologists, foresters, loggers, hikers, prospectors..."

- Yes, but the fact remains: The nine hikers were murdered. In addition, apart from some Mansi hunters there were no other people there at the time - and the Mansi evidently were silenced in a very effective way: They were told that they were suspect, and suddenly they were freed from suspicion by a non-scientific statement about cuts in the tent, which was a statement that was never substantiated. Thus, it would seem that because the Mansi hunters must have been aware of the killings they were given a stern but subtle warning. They were let off the hook, knowing that the Soviet authorities would strike them full force if they ever spoke about what they had seen. The Mansi certainly had seen the corpses, and they would have also noticed the ski tracks which were later eradicated by the wind as well as the possible landing of a helicopter nearby.

4. "Secrets that must be preserved are found in guarded locations, safe deposit boxes, guarded workshops...
They are written texts revealing technical specifications, detailed descriptions of manufacturing processes, possibly prototypes of new devices that it is risky to carry far away in a simple rucksack .........."

- Secret activities like weapons testing are observable, and if such things were observed by intelligent people like advanced technical students it meant a high risk that the activity would later become known.

5. "The evolution of an extraordinary secret prototype aircraft or missile, appearing in the skies or on the ground of the Kholat Saykhl, would not have implied the immediate killing of members of the elite of Soviet youth, but on the contrary would have required extensive interrogations."

- The testing of secret prototypes appearing in the skies or on the ground or both were likely the reason why observers had to be silenced. No interrogations were necessary if the nine indeed became witnesses to such testing. The fact that the nine belonged to a social elite fully explains why the whole operation had to be orchestrated to look like an accident, and it also explains why the Soviet authorities cut the investigation short and ordered that the investigation be closed with the conclusion that it was an accident. Even today, the Russian state agencies claim that an avalanche killed the nine even if there evidently was no avalanche and the injuries were demonstrably not typical of what happens during an avalanche. The fact that the Soviet and later Russian authorities obviously lie about what caused the tragedy, is proof that they hide something. That something is likely their own decision to kill. To admit to the carefully planned murder of nine elite members of society, would create political turmoil even today.

6. "In a word, no important secrets could be noticed by the hikers between January 26 or 28 and February 1. On the contrary, the DPI was a serious failure for the KGB, which proved to be incapable of protecting the hikers."

- The Dyatlov Pass Incident was in all probability a triumph for the probably most competent, intelligent and formidable intelligence agency known to Man. The KGB were not primitive brutes like the American film villains. They were highly educated and trained people, their personnel were mostly selected from the best of the best. Their expert operators could to everything, and "wet affairs" executed by combat specialists were common.

More than sixty years after the obvious murder of nine young people (even Zolotaryov was relatively young) some still cannot believe that the nine Dyatlov Pass victims were brutally murdered. That testifies to the intelligence and competence of those who orchestrated and accomplished the mission. Since most of the nine were very much capable of understanding what they observed, their observations would be a threat to state security.

It seems probable that in this case, the risk was dealt with accordingly. In my opinion this is what is the most likely scenario that played itself out during that fateful winter night in the Urals.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2020, 10:17:00 AM by Per Inge Oestmoen »

November 01, 2020, 01:29:02 PM
Reply #101
Offline

sarapuk

Case-Files Achievement Recipient

Re  Jean Daniel Reuss.
[[ Moreover the construction of coherent solutions by means of what you call pure and useless speculation seems to you to be a dead-end research path.
So what do you propose?  ]]

Well I dont think its a question of whether or not its a dead end path. Its the speculation part that decides that. Obviously its very difficult with the Dyatlov Case because of the lack of Evidence and questionable Investigation and Forensics. So any theory as far as Iam concerned would have to have the appropriate Evidence for a start.
DB

November 02, 2020, 01:42:15 PM
Reply #102
Offline

Jean Daniel Reuss


  Reply #100     October 30, 2020, 08:13:41 AM

Dear Per Inge Oestmoen

I think we are in agreement on this important starting point:The nine hikers were killed by determined other human beings.

Afterwards I am not sure of anything ; I only have suspicions (which are directed towards NKVD state servants who were losing their privileges because of Khrushchev's thaw and desalinization).

Here are some considerations.


1 - No interrogation or questioning was required in order to perform a preventive killing operation to remove the risk.

In 1959 one could imagine a lot of secret research on technologies that could be of interest or promising perspectives, especially in the industrial and space fields and in the domain of new weapons (Examples: Dimensioning of plutonium parts in nuclear warheads - Composition of chemical explosives and missile fuels - Titanium metallurgy...etc....etc.

But in 2020, even if we cannot know much about the classified technical descriptions of the USSR (and then Russia), we know more about the activities that could have been secret in 1959.

Indeed, in all countries of the world, the reinforced forces voluntarily exhibit some indications that are verifiable, to show their strength (and possibly sell them to other friendly countries).

Some recent examples taken at random :
   https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2019/12/24/putin-says-russia-is-leading-world-in-hypersonic-weapons/
   https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-43239331
   https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/01/world/europe/russia-putin-speech.html

In addition the various departments of other countries publish (some of) their own assumptions about the confidential activities of the USSR and now Russia.

In 2020, without further details, I cannot believe that the hikers were observing something (what?) that would have made it necessary for the KGB to kill the hikers immediately.



 
2 - the KGB was also experts in orchestrating "suicides," "accidents" "heart attacks" and other "natural deaths

But these deaths were do not look like "accidents," "suicides" or "natural deaths."

If it was the KGB that was the cause of the attack, the KGB would have had the professionalism, the time and the means to arrange the theater of action a little better (Kholat Syakhl, Cedar, Den...).

For example, the KGB could easily have :
Bring back the 9 corpses in the tent - completely demolish the tent - put some snow on over the tent ---> and it was more than enough for the investigators to conclude without making a fool of themselves...
"
A slab of snow slipped and the 9 hikers died crushed and suffocated because the location of the tent was badly chosen on the slope of the Kholat Syakhl."

Or the investigators could have said: the 9 hikers crossed a frozen river, the ice suddenly and treatably broke, the current dragged them under the ice sheet and being bothered by their heavy backpacks the hikers were found long afterwards, all drowned.

On the contrary, on February 26th, the rescuers found the scene in complete disorder, with a large number of inexplicable and mysterious clues (the late cedar Den, etc.).

The result is very bad. The DPI has not been forgotten in 1 or 2 years as a closed case that has received a plausible explanation (if not perfectly convincing).

Instead, as of February 26, rescuers and investigators discover a scene that is difficult to interpret, which is conducive to awakening all sorts of implausible explanations and suspicions.
 There are far too many findings that are or appear to be enigmas, (the state of the tent, the corpses in the slope, the fire, the Den, the cedar...).

This is really a catastrophic result for a coverup, since 60 years after the incident a lot of people are talking about it and asking questions all over the world.

My conclusion is that this is not the work of competent and well-equipped professionals.  It is impossible that the KGB is responsible for such a bad job.

I add that the immediate killing of the hikers would have been completely contrary to KGB practice. It would have been much simpler and safer to arrest them on their return to :  Vizhay ... Ivdel ... Sverdlovsk and interrogate them for a few months in a secret prison.

The hikers were not unattainable opponents or fugitives abroad, but on the contrary, honest and respectful citizens who would have gone to the police station on their own by simple summons. Then the hikers could have been arrested and if necessary  skillfully tortured in secret and adapted premises to force them to confess everything they knew.
 
Indeed there was at least one coincidence that was suspicious - or that pointed to a bad organization somewhere - the hikers arrived exactly on February 1 at the place where a secret phenomenon appeared ??

The fundamental principle of a powerful security service like the KGB is not to kill (the guilty, suspects, enemies ...) too quickly because nobody knows the future.

Remember these examples.  Nikolay Zolotariov:Arrest=April 14,1943 and Execution=August 24,1943 - Lavrentiy Beria: Arrest=June 26,1953 and Execution=December 23,1953.

I repeat: certainly the KGB was known for its unscrupulous and its effectiveness. But the KGB would never have made the enormous mistake of killing the hikers before having questioned them at length in suitable premises.



 
3 - the Mansi evidently were silenced in a very effective way

From what is known about Mansis' suddenly lifted accusation, it is indeed possible that this may be a subtle intimidation to force them to keep silent about anything they might have seen from January 28th (by watching their animal traps ?).

It is also possible that there were no Mansi who moved near the tent on the Kholat Syakhl during the entire month of February.

Indeed Kholat Syakhl means "dead mountain", which means almost "mountain without any interest".
             And the Mansis did not lack useful and interesting activities by staying comfortably at home.
             Rather than wasting time wandering around in snowstorms like those foolish Russian city dwellers....



           
4 -   Secret activities like weapons testing are observable

It seems that the hikers did not have some specialized measuring devices.  A simple visual observation would not have provided any significant useful data.

Photographs might have been more revealing, but then it would have been sufficient for the KGB to confiscate the cameras. Or even more simply to veil (destroy) the films.

In 1959 CIA probably did not know much about what was going on in the plants in the Urals because there were not many US spies in this well guarded area. However, the CIA certainly already knew much more than the intelligent people like advanced technical students would have observed on the slopes of the Kholat Syakhl.

Whatever the nine "very much capable of understanding what they observed" , I cannot believe, in 2020, that the hikers' observations could have been a significant threat to the state security.



5 - The fact that the Soviet and later Russian authorities obviously lie about what caused the tragedy, is proof that they hide something.
                                      Yes !  It is obvious : they hide something.
And even this may be one of the reasons why so many implausible hypotheses can be read. As if the goal was to confuse the research and make it difficult for those who want to find a rational explanation for DPI...

 
the whole operation had to be orchestrated to look like an accident
         BUT the fact is that the result does not look like an accident at all !

the Soviet authorities cut the investigation short and ordered that the investigation be closed
         Yes ! it is indisputable.

with the conclusion that it was an accident.
         In spite of their serious nature, Russians are cheerful guys with a fine subtle sense of humor.
         It is with their absurd conclusion that they make the whole world laugh.

The fact that the Soviet and later Russian authorities obviously lie about what caused the tragedy, is proof that they hide something.
         Yes, they hide something.

That something is likely their own decision to kill.
       NO ! NO ! On the contrary that something is likely the stupidity of the KGB for not having been able to protect the hikers.
       And the incompetence of the KGB for not having understood the danger represented by the different categories of opponents that remained in the Vizhay region.

To admit to the carefully planned murder of nine elite members of society, would create political turmoil even today.
     Yes ! Even today Putin  wants to make people forget the misdeeds of the Stalinist period (1929-1953).
     As an important political leader, he is not necessarily wrong.


6 - They were highly educated and trained people, their personnel were mostly selected from the best of the best.

I have no doubt that the KGB was "the most competent, intelligent and formidable intelligence agency known to Man."
But their personnel mostly selected from the best of the best were men and not unfailing gods: the KGB could sometimes be mistaken.
     And the KGB would rather hide its failures........

I am beginning to understand that Those who orchestrated and accomplished the mission.
     • had a good tactics to dominate and defeat in the night combat.
     • had no firearms.
     • were few in number.
     • probably received big punches into their faces.
     • .......etc...........

To sum up, I do not know exactly which killer Commando attacked the 9 hikers, but I am convinced that it is not the KGB (which would never have done such a pitiful "job").



°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°°

Currently, I am beginning to direct my suspicions to former Gulag camp guards located in the Vizhay region, see :

Jean Daniel Reuss :  Factual Information ==> Materials Modern ==> Publications/Media  ==> Ivdellag breaks in 1959   -->  September 19, 2020, 10:12:00 AM ; Reply #1
      https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=714.msg10800#msg10800

Infra-sound/Gravity fluctuation/Teleportation => Infrasound? Most unlikely.    Reply #95
     https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=116.msg10931#msg10931

It is also necessary to examine in details other promising hypotheses
     • A hunting activity by civil servants using a helicopter without authorization.
     • Illegal trafficking of gold mined in northern Vizhay.
     • Encounter with American spies - This is what can be called the Rakitin category - And the sky-hook was operational as early as 1958 ....
     • The "Dubinina mystery" who changes her attitude on February 26th and seems to suffer a big disillusionment 2 days after, the 28th, at North-2.
     • .......etc.

Dear Per Inge Oestmoen: Since you are here with a Russian flag I assume that you know the Russian language (which unfortunately I do not know).
 I think it would be possible to find very useful information on websites written in Russian. I especially noticed :

The "Criminal" section of the forum taina.li
   https://taina.li/forum/index.php?board=112.0

Aleks Kandr himself; (fortunately Aleks Kandr almost never uses his absurd astrological nonsense when he writes about DPI).
   http://mystery12home.ru/t-ub-gr-dyatlova
   https://taina.li/forum/index.php?topic=1002.0

I prefer to leave this topic 23.0 of "indeed MOST UNLIKELY Infrasound" to pursue my argumentation and opinions on the logically appropriate topic:

Altercation on the pass => Altercation on the pass
https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=411.30
Jean Daniel Reuss

Rational guidance =

• There is nothing supernatural and mysterious about the injuries suffered by the Dyatlov group. They are all consistent with an attack by a group of professional killers who wanted to take the lives of the nine  [Per Inge Oestmoen].

• Now let us search for answers to: WHO ? WHY ? HOW ?

• The scenario must be consistent with the historical, political and psychological  contexts.

• The solution takes in consideration all known findings.

November 02, 2020, 04:24:46 PM
Reply #103
Offline

RidgeWatcher


Thank you Mr. Reuss,

I thought that you presented a very rational explanation dividing the possible combatants of the deaths.

I have always thought that there is a of connection between Lyuda's change of personality, a diary entry saying "We talked about things we have never talked about before, last night" and then being herded to the hotel, the Blinov group going west. Semyon has too many discrepancies that encircle him and his behavior. I wonder if Semyon was on assignment with the group. He seemed to be at the end of his professional rope and maybe agreed to something to better his situation.

Maybe the Communist Party had heard about things happening in or around Vizhay and then inserted Semyon into the Dyatlov group to gather information. Maybe Lyuda could sense this but supported Semyon because she was the most loyal communist in the group. All Semyon had to do was to say one word to the wrong person to start the hunt and attack. Then the NKVD came to the Dyatlov Pass and killed everyone including Semyon to clean up the mess.

What was happening in Vizhay and the surrounding area before the Blinov and the Dyatlov groups arrived? Blinov went west through the Souther Urals and there were no problems but the Dyatlov group went north and all hell breaks loose.I agree with Mr. Reuss' assertions that the most logical attackers would be the disenfranchised, most likely.