1959 s Anthropology

[Почемучка]

To let you understand where I sit on the fence, which it is, on the fence. I lean towards Igor B and/or a natural cause.

Сэр Ziljoe, почему Вы отклоняете вариант конфликта из-за Зины? Вы один из немногих кто очень точно оценил поведение месье Чарльза. Ну Вы такой настоящий рыцарь который смотрит не только на ситуацию сверху, но и пытается понять её через сердце. Вы не равнодушный. Это очень важно когда пытаешься понять что же случилось с группою Дятлова.

Sir Ziljoe, why do you reject the option of conflict because of Zina? You are one of the few people who very accurately assessed the behavior of Monsieur Charles. Well, you are such a real knight who looks not only at the situation from above, but also tries to understand it through the heart. You are not indifferent. This is very important when trying to understand what happened to the Dyatlov group.

[Зайцев]

My question is not meant to trip you up.

Вы не поставите вопросами меня в тупик. Кроме Почемучки никто не сможет этого сделать. За что я её уважаю и люблю. Я отвечу на любой ваш вопрос. Я и отвечал на все вопросы по поводу ботулизма на других русскоязычных форумах и никто не смог аргументированно мне возразить.
You don't confuse me with questions. No one can do this except Pochemochka. For which I respect and love her. I will answer any of your questions. I answered all the questions about botulism in other Russian-speaking forums and no one could argue with me with arguments.

[Ziljoe]

To let you understand where I sit on the fence, which it is, on the fence. I lean towards Igor B and/or a natural cause.

Сэр Ziljoe, почему Вы отклоняете вариант конфликта из-за Зины? Вы один из немногих кто очень точно оценил поведение месье Чарльза. Ну Вы такой настоящий рыцарь который смотрит не только на ситуацию сверху, но и пытается понять её через сердце. Вы не равнодушный. Это очень важно когда пытаешься понять что же случилось с группою Дятлова.

Sir Ziljoe, why do you reject the option of conflict because of Zina? You are one of the few people who very accurately assessed the behavior of Monsieur Charles. Well, you are such a real knight who looks not only at the situation from above, but also tries to understand it through the heart. You are not indifferent. This is very important when trying to understand what happened to the Dyatlov group.

Hi Почемучка

Sorry, i do not reject it. Monsieur Charles actually danced with the concept of internal love. He kept changing his mind though. ( In my archive of posts , I'm sure there will be some of his thoughts saved)

You have not yet expanded on Zina's psychological bomb. I can see her anxiety or humiliation  causing her to maybe lash out but I can't see how any fallout leads to all the hikers ending up at the ravine and ceder?

I am all ears and wish to hear . I suspect other forum members do also.

[Ziljoe]

Out of interest , what do you think happened? Maybe let us poke holes in your theory ?

Фактор, который помешал бороться с холодом - отравление.
Ботулизм объясняет установку палатки на склоне, разрезы палатки изнутри, покидание палатки всей группой, стремление к воде для промывания желудков, травмы рёбер на третьей гряде, неадекватное поведение у кедра, невозможность подняться обратно к палатке, смерть.
The factor that prevented him from fighting the cold was poisoning.
Botulism explains setting up a tent on a slope, cutting the tent from the inside, leaving the tent with the whole group, the desire for water to wash the stomachs, injuries to the ribs on the third ridge, inadequate behavior at the cedar, the inability to climb back to the tent, death.

Thank you  Зайцев

I am happy you said so and thank you for pointing me in that direction. It gives an explanation for the dilated pupils along with Igor b's.  I think the dilated pupils are an important factor in the autopsy.

Why would all be affected at the same time though? Would some not be delayed in symptoms and take more clothes etc? Look after others?

My question is not meant to trip you up. Just a question. You may get more questions from others here too.

I welcome your thoughts. 

Ok here goes,

Why would all be affected at the same time though? Would some not be delayed in symptoms and take more clothes etc? Look after others?

[Почемучка]

To let you understand where I sit on the fence, which it is, on the fence. I lean towards Igor B and/or a natural cause.

Сэр Ziljoe, почему Вы отклоняете вариант конфликта из-за Зины? Вы один из немногих кто очень точно оценил поведение месье Чарльза. Ну Вы такой настоящий рыцарь который смотрит не только на ситуацию сверху, но и пытается понять её через сердце. Вы не равнодушный. Это очень важно когда пытаешься понять что же случилось с группою Дятлова.

Sir Ziljoe, why do you reject the option of conflict because of Zina? You are one of the few people who very accurately assessed the behavior of Monsieur Charles. Well, you are such a real knight who looks not only at the situation from above, but also tries to understand it through the heart. You are not indifferent. This is very important when trying to understand what happened to the Dyatlov group.

Hi Почемучка

Sorry, i do not reject it. Monsieur Charles actually danced with the concept of internal love. He kept changing his mind though. ( In my archive of posts , I'm sure there will be some of his thoughts saved)

You have not yet expanded on Zina's psychological bomb. I can see her anxiety or humiliation  causing her to maybe lash out but I can't see how any fallout leads to all the hikers ending up at the ravine and ceder?

I am all ears and wish to hear . I suspect other forum members do also.

Отлично. Раздадим роли. Вы - Рустем Слободин. Рустем с Зиною всякий раз рядом - потому что он надежное плечо, он как может понимает её состояние. Дятлов - это Зайцев. Он считает - что все не драма и он руководитель и перед ним цель. Как у всякого руководителя - собрать поход, пройти поход, вернуться из похода.
Я - Зина. Месье Чарльз со своим потребительским отношением к девушкам/женщинам - Юра Дорошенко. Люда - это точно Mademoiselle massacre (night) of St. Bartholomew. Золотарева назначать не буду. Он действовал не со зла. Он просто нарисовал боевой листок "Вечерний Отортен", где критически посмотрел на то что ему случилось увидеть. Он не злой и бестактность его - непреднамеренная. Прочие персонажи: Колеватов, Тибо и Кривонищенко - просто массовка.

Excellent. Let's distribute the roles. You are Rustem Slobodin. Rustem is with Zina every time - because he is a reliable shoulder, he understands her condition as best he can. Dyatlov is Zaitsev. He believes that everything is not a drama and he is the leader and the goal is in front of him. Like any leader - to collect a hike, go through a hike, return from a hike.
I am Zina. Monsieur Charles with his consumerist attitude towards girls/women - Yura Doroshenko. Luda is definitely Mademoiselle massacre (night) of St. Bartholomew. I will not appoint Zolotarev. He did not act out of malice. He simply drew a battle sheet "Evening Otorten", where he critically looked at what he happened to see. He is not evil and his tactlessness is unintentional. Other characters: Kolevatov, Tibo and Krivonischenko are just extras.

[Ziljoe]

Ok Почемучка

Please continue.( I didn't quite because it can get unreadable) .

May I suggest,Perhaps start a new thread for this conversation? Just so it will be easier for others to keep track?

[Почемучка]

Ok Почемучка

Please continue.( I didn't quite because it can get unreadable) .

May I suggest,Perhaps start a new thread for this conversation? Just so it will be easier for others to keep track?

Вы можете все, потому что Вы -
You can do anything because you are

[Ziljoe]

I meant I didn't quote not quite, my mistake. Only problem with hand writing is I can't translate from photo.

[Почемучка]

I meant I didn't quote not quite, my mistake. Only problem with hand writing is I can't translate from photo.

Новая тема - это хорошее предложение. На Вашем блокноте - (Вы же Рустем Слободин!) - Зина надписала что Вы - неутомимый и механический. Механический - это синоним надежного, здравомыслящего человека. Неутомимый - значит оптимист, который не устанет быть надежным человеком.
A new theme is a good suggestion. On your notebook - (You are Rustem Slobodin!) - Zina wrote that you are tireless and mechanical. Mechanical is a synonym for a reliable, sane person. Indefatigable means an optimist who will not tire of being a reliable person.

[Manti]

Это уже более реально.
Ещё, как нибудь бы, объяснить замерзание не травмированных туристов.

Если бы дело был по жаркому лету - тогда это проблема. А в феврале на склоне 1079 - это естественно. А.В.Курьяков давал справку по климату что был тогда.

If it was a hot summer, then this is a problem. And in February on slope 1079 - it's natural. A.V. Kuryakov gave a certificate on the climate that was then.

 It happens in uk.

during the comparatively warm and dry summers of 2008-2010, hypothermia caused 132 UK deaths over the holiday months.

Hikers and campers are identified as an 'at risk' group, with many outdoor adventurers ill-prepared for fluctuating weather conditions in the British Isles, and often making do with inappropriate clothing. Disconcertingly, a good number are also blissfully unaware of cotton's reputation as an 'outdoor killer'.

A party of young hikers got into trouble in UK in 1971.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cairngorm_Plateau_disaster

The cold is a killer.

This is a very interesting case. I didn't know about it before, thank you for posting it. Actually it's remarkably similar to the DPI except rescue operations started in a more timely manner..

[Почемучка]

This is a very interesting case. I didn't know about it before, thank you for posting it. Actually it's remarkably similar to the DPI except rescue operations started in a more timely manner..

Будете в нашем театрализованном представлении - Сашею Колеватовым? У нас план смоделировать те обстоятельства и нужны добровольцы.
Will you be in our theatrical performance - Sasha Kolevatov? We have a plan to simulate those circumstances and we need volunteers.

[Зайцев]

Дятлов - это Зайцев. Он считает - что все не драма и он руководитель и перед ним цель. Как у всякого руководителя - собрать поход, пройти поход, вернуться из похода.
Я - Зина. Месье Чарльз со своим потребительским отношением к девушкам/женщинам - Юра Дорошенко.

Если потребитель Чарлз начнёт распускать руки, получит по морде (по лицу)

[Manti]

Honestly, I will be Yudin. Because that's what I would do. The university gave us proper mountaineering coats but then asked for them back? We didn't bring sleeping bags? What is going on here? I'm sorry but I have a need for comfort. And plans for my future. I do not like -30 degrees even when looking out from the window. So I would just turn back. In fact I would try to persuade all of them to turn back. Or let's go to Дэкатлон and buy some sleeping bags? But that was no so easy in '59, I guess.

[Зайцев]

Honestly, I will be Yudin. Because that's what I would do. The university gave us proper mountaineering coats but then asked for them back? We didn't bring sleeping bags? What is going on here? I'm sorry but I have a need for comfort. And plans for my future. I do not like -30 degrees even when looking out from the window. So I would just turn back. In fact I would try to persuade all of them to turn back. Or let's go to Дэкатлон and buy some sleeping bags? But that was no so easy in '59, I guess.

С печью в палатке можно спать с одеялами, без спальных мешков. Сам не пробовал, но моё предположение подтверждают записи из дневников. Фраза "было тепло" как раз относится к ночёвке на на месте лабаза

[Manti]

Honestly, I will be Yudin. Because that's what I would do. The university gave us proper mountaineering coats but then asked for them back? We didn't bring sleeping bags? What is going on here? I'm sorry but I have a need for comfort. And plans for my future. I do not like -30 degrees even when looking out from the window. So I would just turn back. In fact I would try to persuade all of them to turn back. Or let's go to Дэкатлон and buy some sleeping bags? But that was no so easy in '59, I guess.

Teltassa kiukaan kanssa voit nukkua peittojen kanssa, ilman makuupusseja. En ole itse kokeillut, mutta olettamukseni vahvistavat päiväkirjamerkinnät. Ilmaus "oli lämmin" viittaa vain yön viettoon aittahuoneistossa

Yeah I know. But they never slept on the open slope before (on this trip), but always in the forest. Very different environment. Less wind. Better conditions to make a campfire. And the tent's rope can be tied to trees so it holds the stove well.

But I was just saying I'd have been like Yudin, and turned back not at the pass but sooner. But yes, when the stove works, it would have been bearable. There is a very vivid description of conditions in the tent by Grigoriyev. Not the Dyatlovite tent but the search party's military tent. And they were in the Auspiya valley, in the forest. And he was sitting next to the stove writing that. And still, it sounds unpleasant.
https://dyatlovpass.com/grigoriev-2

[Почемучка]

Honestly, I will be Yudin. Because that's what I would do. The university gave us proper mountaineering coats but then asked for them back? We didn't bring sleeping bags? What is going on here? I'm sorry but I have a need for comfort. And plans for my future. I do not like -30 degrees even when looking out from the window. So I would just turn back. In fact I would try to persuade all of them to turn back. Or let's go to Дэкатлон and buy some sleeping bags? But that was no so easy in '59, I guess.

Вы выбрали самую тяжелую роль. Всю жизнь посвятить их смертям...
Тем не менее - какие-то предвестники трагедии Вы должны были уловить, пройдя с нами до 2-го Северного. Посмотрите как я (Зина) прощаюсь с Вами. Что Вы чувствуете?
You have chosen the most difficult role. Dedicate your whole life to their deaths...
Nevertheless, you should have caught some harbingers of the tragedy when you walked with us to the 2nd Northern. Look how I (Zina) say goodbye to you. What do you feel?

[Manti]

By the way Zaitsev, I like the botulism theory. They were eating canned food and it's still a risk. And in '59 more so. And if they all ate the same thing, then it makes sense they develop the symptoms at the same time. The only thing is, can it be detected at an autopsy? I don't know. Can it perhaps even be detected now if a body is exhumed? With modern tools, I suspect yes. So this may be actually a verifiable theory.

[Почемучка]

Если потребитель Чарлз начнёт распускать руки, получит по морде (по лицу)

Откуда Вы знаете - насчет моей реакции на его распущенные руки? Зину все помнят такой, что она сама могла легко и тяжело приложить по челюсти. Если конечно было хамство и скабрезность.
Может я весь поход жду, когда Юра пояснит - зачем и за кем он в этом походе? А это - только с распущенными руками. И с отпущенными на волю - чувствами.
How do you know - about my reaction to his loose hands? Everyone remembers Zina so that she herself could easily and hard put on the jaw. Unless of course there was rudeness and obscenity.
Maybe I'm waiting for the whole trip. when Yura explains - why and for whom is he on this campaign? And this is only with open hands. And with released on will - feelings.

[Manti]

Fondness and true friendship on Lyuda's face. And understanding.YY: "Ok, I appreciate it but that's enough. I'm not a broken legged kitten or something"


Is that a gentle slap from Zina? In my mind, she is thinking "crafty boy!"


I think I would feel sorry to leave Lyuda behind, we would have had fun and a lot of interesting conversations on this trip. As for Zina, there is mutual respect but we weren't quite on the same frequency. Hope she enjoys the trip? And I will enjoy the warmth of my apartment, thank you.

But I actually had two Russian friends during university, Eliza and Vasya... and there is a resemblance to Lyuda and Zina. Maybe too much of it. So when I look at these photos my imagination might be too active.

[Зайцев]

Honestly, I will be Yudin. Because that's what I would do. The university gave us proper mountaineering coats but then asked for them back? We didn't bring sleeping bags? What is going on here? I'm sorry but I have a need for comfort. And plans for my future. I do not like -30 degrees even when looking out from the window. So I would just turn back. In fact I would try to persuade all of them to turn back. Or let's go to Дэкатлон and buy some sleeping bags? But that was no so easy in '59, I guess.

Teltassa kiukaan kanssa voit nukkua peittojen kanssa, ilman makuupusseja. En ole itse kokeillut, mutta olettamukseni vahvistavat päiväkirjamerkinnät. Ilmaus "oli lämmin" viittaa vain yön viettoon aittahuoneistossa

Yeah I know. But they never slept on the open slope before (on this trip), but always in the forest. Very different environment. Less wind. Better conditions to make a campfire. And the tent's rope can be tied to trees so it holds the stove well.

But I was just saying I'd have been like Yudin, and turned back not at the pass but sooner. But yes, when the stove works, it would have been bearable. There is a very vivid description of conditions in the tent by Grigoriyev. Not the Dyatlovite tent but the search party's military tent. And they were in the Auspiya valley, in the forest. And he was sitting next to the stove writing that. And still, it sounds unpleasant.
https://dyatlovpass.com/grigoriev-2

В 1959 году ботулизм определить могли специальными лабораторными анализами. Даже в наше время ботулизм определяют так-же сложно и часто ошибаются с диагнозом, что приводит к смерти пациентов в реанимации
In 1959, botulism could be determined by special laboratory tests. Even in our time, botulism is also difficult to determine and often mistaken with a diagnosis, which leads to the death of patients in intensive care

[Зайцев]

Если потребитель Чарлз начнёт распускать руки, получит по морде (по лицу)

Откуда Вы знаете - насчет моей реакции на его распущенные руки? Зину все помнят такой, что она сама могла легко и тяжело приложить по челюсти. Если конечно было хамство и скабрезность.
Может я весь поход жду, когда Юра пояснит - зачем и за кем он в этом походе? А это - только с распущенными руками. И с отпущенными на волю - чувствами.
How do you know - about my reaction to his loose hands? Everyone remembers Zina so that she herself could easily and hard put on the jaw. Unless of course there was rudeness and obscenity.
Maybe I'm waiting for the whole trip. when Yura explains - why and for whom is he on this campaign? And this is only with open hands. And with released on will - feelings.

Тогда Чарлз на эту роль не подходит. Расист, который оценивает женщин по качеству их кожи, в любом случае обязан отхватить.. А за что, это уже не важно.

[Почемучка]

Тогда Чарлз на эту роль не подходит. Расист, который оценивает женщин по качеству их кожи, в любом случае обязан отхватить.. А за что, это уже не важно.

Ну нам нужен был ловелас, бабник. Месье Чарльз именно так нарисовал свой портрет. Поскольку женщины от него не шарахались - он видимо хорош собою. Тут даже на форуме есть две - подпавшие по его чары юзерши.
Well, we needed a ladies' man, a womanizer. Monsieur Charles painted his portrait in this way. Since women did not shy away from him, he is apparently good-looking. Here, even on the forum, there are two - users who fell under his spell.

[Почемучка]

But I actually had two Russian friends during university, Eliza and Vasya... and there is a resemblance to Lyuda and Zina. Maybe too much of it. So when I look at these photos my imagination might be too active.

Отлично. Вы не видите в жестах Зины - нескрываемого сожаления, что она на Вас - рассчитывала? Вы были одним из тех, кто умел разруливать конфликтные тучи? Услышать и почувствовать все так - как это услышала бы женская душа? Почитайте свой дневник. Юра был настоящим лирическим героем. Пьеро...
Excellent. Don't you see in Zina's gestures - undisguised regret that she was counting on you? Were you one of those who knew how to resolve conflict clouds? To hear and feel everything in such a way - how would a woman's soul hear it? Read your diary. Yura was a real lyrical hero. Pierrot...