Radiation from potash?

[sarapuk]

Thanks, Ziljoe, for pointing me back there. I believe, some of those posts I already read and might have even taken part in the discussions. But I forgot over the years.

As you mention, I also have thought about the places at least some of them went on their journey. You're probably referring to the same excerpt from the group diary as I am:

January 28
We were awaken by the rumbling voices of Yurka Kri (Yuri Krivonischenko) and Sasha Kolevatov (Aleksander Kolevatov). Weather so far is smiling at us. It's only -8°C outside.
After breakfast, some of the guys lead by Yuri Yudin, our well- known geologist, went to look for local minerals. They didn't find anything except pyrite and quartz veins in the rock. Took them long time to wax their skis and adjust the mounting. Yuri Yudin goes back home today. It is a pity, of course, that he leaves us. Especially for me and Zina, but nothing can be done about it.

We know they were looking for pyrite and not further described quartz. Though pyrite seems to sometimes be close to areas with radioactive minerals (only mildly radioactive, though), there seems to be no reports of those close to Northern 2nd. (I took the fast lane and asked perplexity, so take this with a grain of salt.)

The contaminated area (after the accident in Mayak) does not interfere with the route the hikers took.

So aside from contamination brought from Mayak directly, I can only imagine an accident with something like a watch or lantern (as mentioned above, I'll try to read into it) or contamination acquired somewhere on the way. And at least perplexity suggests, that there are no areas with radioactive minerals close by. Though I think I remember Teddy mentioned that there were prospectors in the area looking for exactly those areas, so maybe the information perplexity gave is wrong...

Regarding radiation contamination. Some of the tourists were working with radiation, so perhaps that's why they were trying to find bodies using radiation. Or they were using a different device, like a metal detector, but more sensitive than those used by other searchers.
Their clothing could have been contaminated because the tourists could have walked through the Ural radiation patch created by the Mayak accident and rubbed against a radioactive object. I read the memoirs of a geologist who was searching for radioactive ores in the Urals. He wrote that after the explosion at Mayak, work became more difficult – the device would signal, you'd take a sample, and it would be empty. "Greetings" from Mayak.

I believe there were reports of the searchers using metal detectors, but failing at being successful with them. There're no reports of them using Geiger Counters to locate the bodies, only that they were scanned after being found.
As mentioned above, the East Urals Radioactive Trace doesn't interfere with the route of the hikers, so it's unlikely they touched anything contaminated by the accident in Mayak, other than the one working there... I forgot who was it.

Shamil Sabirov stated at the last conference (February 2, 2026) that the beta radiation level on clothing was up to 60 times higher than that of some natural sources.

He says that the natural background radiation from such a 15 x 15 cm surface is 150 counts, while measured values ​​reached 9,000 counts.

This really is the difficulty: Finding a source of radioactivity they could have had contact with, that was such a high emitter and that emitted mostly beta-radiation. That's why I was going for watches or lanterns, for if some of the material would have rubbed of, that might have been a high amount of radioactivity measured at the exact location... It doesn't feel like the solution, though.

I just want to add that a Geiger counter was definitely used but what was it used for. I dont recall any specific target it was meant to locate.

[Ziljoe]

I just want to add that a Geiger counter was definitely used but what was it used for. I dont recall any specific target it was meant to locate.

Please cite your evidence and context.

[Ziljoe]

Regarding radiation contamination. Some of the tourists were working with radiation, so perhaps that's why they were trying to find bodies using radiation. Or they were using a different device, like a metal detector, but more sensitive than those used by other searchers.
Their clothing could have been contaminated because the tourists could have walked through the Ural radiation patch created by the Mayak accident and rubbed against a radioactive object. I read the memoirs of a geologist who was searching for radioactive ores in the Urals. He wrote that after the explosion at Mayak, work became more difficult – the device would signal, you'd take a sample, and it would be empty. "Greetings" from Mayak.

Yes this as been touched upon a few times re the clothing of some of the group may have had radioactive traces on them. But it seems unlikely that when the search for the missing hikers started they would have been thinking of searching for bodies. They were expecting to find them alive, presumably. The Geiger counter was used early in the search apparently. And would the searchers have been aware that some of the group may have had contaminated clothing.

Absolutely, so what do you mean. When was the Geiger counter used early in the search . Please cite your statement.

[Ziljoe]

Well you raise some good points. It looks like we all have to agree that there was radiation of some kind. Whether it played a part in the demise of the group is another matter. Problem is that certain types of radiation don't last long for the purposes of us gathering evidence. As any one taken soil samples these days and tested for radiation at the site ?

All we can agree on is that post discovery of the ravine 4 , that readings were taken from their clothes. There bodies and clothes had traveled from the ravine , put in bags, put in a helicopter , been undressed, then readings were taken. No readings are recorded as been taken from the ravine , 1079 , the water or the localised soil.

[Senior Maldonado]

Not sure what you are trying to say here. I'm going by what records we have of what people have stated. Ivanov said many things and they are recorded. We try to piece it all together and make sense of it all. Not easy is it.

I try to say two simple things:
1) The hikers' clothes were contaminated on contact with a radioactive source, which was inside a "fireball". Leakage of radioactive substance was minimal and affected only limited area around the "fireball". It did not spread on the whole terrain.
2) The contact took place at DP on Feb 1st in the evening. It was not in Sverdlovsk, Severny-2, helicopter or wherever else. It was near the last tent's placement.

[Missi]

I do not remember, when the geiger counter was first used and by whom. A (very quick) search didn't give any results. So without any confirmation two vague ideas why here could have been measurements:

The students involved in the search were physics and radiology students among others. Maybe one of them build a very simple geiger counter himself, brought it, because why not, and discovered spikes he them told the leaders about, leading to more and more scientific relevant measurements?

One of the hikers (I don't remember who) worked at... I believe it was called Chelyabinsk at the time. The secret town that's known as Mayak also, that people know for the Kyshtym disaster, which happened a few years earlier. Another worked at another PO, where, if I remember correctly, nuclear materials were also handled.
Maybe that could have been the reason, why there were measurements.

There was no Geiger counter in the Dyatlov Groups Inventory. As I have pointed out before there must have been a reason for a Geiger counter or counters to be used in the search.

You understood me wrong. What I mean is: It is possible for someone to build their own Geiger counter (if they know how to and have access to some gadgets. I know someone, who build one himself.
I didn't suggest, that one of the dyatlovites had one with them, but that someone in the search team might have brought one selfbuilt, because why not? It might have been a chance to test it far out in the wilderness. Let's just say, this happened, that someone tested their counter after shifts and got a higher reading than expected. If it was originating from the bodies or the area the bodies were found of maybe an area the search team visited frequently, they would have reported their findings.

I don't say, it must have happened like this. I only say, it might have been a possibility.

I did say that no Geiger counter in the Dyatlov inventory. But one or more was used by the search team and the Geiger counter or counters would be of the military type No mention of home made Geiger counter or counters.

The initial question was, why someone official brought Geiger Counters to the site. I was trying to give a reason as to why radiation could have been detected and how that lead to official measurements, that's all.

[Missi]

Not sure what you are trying to say here. I'm going by what records we have of what people have stated. Ivanov said many things and they are recorded. We try to piece it all together and make sense of it all. Not easy is it.

I try to say two simple things:
1) The hikers' clothes were contaminated on contact with a radioactive source, which was inside a "fireball". Leakage of radioactive substance was minimal and affected only limited area around the "fireball". It did not spread on the whole terrain.
2) The contact took place at DP on Feb 1st in the evening. It was not in Sverdlovsk, Severny-2, helicopter or wherever else. It was near the last tent's placement.

You can say that as firmly as you want to, but that doesn't make it real. Proof does. So can you prove your statements?

[Senior Maldonado]

You can say that as firmly as you want to, but that doesn't make it real. Proof does. So can you prove your statements?

Great move! You are 10,000-s person, who tells me that I MUST prove certain event in the Dyatlov case. 
Do you truly believe that I am on the same level with Ivanov, Tempalov, Korotaev to prove anything in this criminal case? Especially when 67 years have passed?
USSR's authorities did their best in 1959 to conceal the real cause of the incident. Do you still expect they left you hooks to continue investigation and find proofs?
What I say is MY OPINION, and I hope on this forum it is allowed to share opinions, not only provide proofs.
If you think that anybody has proved anything in this case, please point me to that brilliant work so that I get an outstanding example how proofs can be obtained.   

[Missi]

You can say that as firmly as you want to, but that doesn't make it real. Proof does. So can you prove your statements?

Great move! You are 10,000-s person, who tells me that I MUST prove certain event in the Dyatlov case. 
Do you truly believe that I am on the same level with Ivanov, Tempalov, Korotaev to prove anything in this criminal case? Especially when 67 years have passed?
USSR's authorities did their best in 1959 to conceal the real cause of the incident. Do you still expect they left you hooks to continue investigation and find proofs?
What I say is MY OPINION, and I hope on this forum it is allowed to share opinions, not only provide proofs.
If you think that anybody has proved anything in this case, please point me to that brilliant work so that I get an outstanding example how proofs can be obtained.

There are two different layers of this argumentation.
First is opinions and belief. You can have whatever opinion you would like to have. You can talk about it. But if you put it like a fact, you have to let yourself be asked for proof.
Yet I do have to concede to the fact, that I missed the "try" in your statement and probably read it as more of a "that is what happened" statement as you intended to.
But in the end it is, as I said: If you want your opinion to hold and be more than belief, you MUST prove it. That is you or me or whoever thinks their theory is the one that's right.

The second is about proof. Yes, there are proofs. Teddy did prove that the tree, she thinks was responsible, fell at a time that might fit into the story. It's not a proof that it did happen like that. But it's definite proof that it is not impossible. There has been proof that other than thought for a long time, the area does have snow slaps. Those are no proofs as in "this is what happened", usually. They are proofs that something is possible or that something definitely is not possible. It's small steps, but they reduce the area in which we are thinking.

And last, there's my opinion: The USSR's authorities did not conceal anything. They would have made a statement as to which is the narrative and buried the victims. And everyone who'd have spoken against the official story would have won a one way ticket to Siberia or elsewhere pleasant.
It is an opinion, so no proof here. But a plausibility, because we see similar stories of "that's the narrative" and deported people all over the years the USSR existed, that we do learn about as years go by.

[Senior Maldonado]

If you want your opinion to hold and be more than belief, you MUST prove it. That is you or me or whoever thinks their theory is the one that's right.

No I don't. I am fully OK that other people think differently. The less people understand what happened in 1959, the better to watch their efforts to solve the puzzle. 

Teddy did prove that the tree, she thinks was responsible, fell at a time that might fit into the story. It's not a proof that it did happen like that. But it's definite proof that it is not impossible.

I'll say you more - everything is possible. For example, a hurricane is possible. All top leaders of Communist party of the USSR signed a document on April 10th 1959 that they had been informed that the hikers died because of a hurricane. However much later, just a few years ago, representative of the russian Prosecutors office Mr.Kuryakov informed the society that the hikers died due to two conseсutive avalanches - one on the slope, another in the ravine. As for the fallen tree, I know that every forest have trees that fell in 1959. So what?

And last, there's my opinion: The USSR's authorities did not conceal anything.

My opinion is that your opinion regarding that is totaly wrong.  )

[Missi]

If you want your opinion to hold and be more than belief, you MUST prove it. That is you or me or whoever thinks their theory is the one that's right.

No I don't. I am fully OK that other people think differently. The less people understand what happened in 1959, the better to watch their efforts to solve the puzzle. 

Teddy did prove that the tree, she thinks was responsible, fell at a time that might fit into the story. It's not a proof that it did happen like that. But it's definite proof that it is not impossible.

I'll say you more - everything is possible. For example, a hurricane is possible. All top leaders of Communist party of the USSR signed a document on April 10th 1959 that they had been informed that the hikers died because of a hurricane. However much later, just a few years ago, representative of the russian Prosecutors office Mr.Kuryakov informed the society that the hikers died due to two conseсutive avalanches - one on the slope, another in the ravine. As for the fallen tree, I know that every forest have trees that fell in 1959. So what?

And last, there's my opinion: The USSR's authorities did not conceal anything.

My opinion is that your opinion regarding that is totaly wrong.  )

Well, then, good to know.

So, about that Geiger Counter. I somehow remembered to have read as well, someone mentioned that during the search someone had one there. I couldn't find that testimony by reading through this site, it was not referenced at the spots I looked (which does not mean, there is none, just that if there is, it's nowhere I expected it to logically be stored). So I asked perplexity (which again is no prove, so if someone actually find's the testimony, I'd love to get the link, thanks. :) ) and it said, that fact is no fact, but rather someone mentioned years later, that someone - unspecified person - had a Geiger Counter there. So I guess, it's probably a case of hearsay and fading memories. At the moment I don't find the energy and concentration to read all of the case files (again)...

[Ziljoe]

It's an absolute pain to find. It's in this post incident interview.

"This is the opinion of the participant in the searches of Dyatlov group Vladimir Askinadzi, who shared his memoirs with journalists Nikolay Varsegov and Natalya Varsegova."

https://forum.dyatlovpass.com/index.php?topic=244.0

Were you tested for radiation?

– No. I learned about radiation only when the case was declassified. True, there was a Moscow radiologist with a dosimeter there on the pass. He took measurements, but we were not informed about the results.


I'm sure someone else states he heard the clicking and I think that's it. Then there is the much later statement by some guy that says Ivanov requested that a Geiger counter was used as the clothes were glowing , in wherever they were being stored.

My memory also brings up something about a big box at the start of the search with or when  the sappers arrive. I'm think something is suggested regarding this arrival but again it's post incident.

[Missi]

He didn't even give an official statement for the case files.
And there's the thing with the dosimeter again. Those don't click. And they don't measure in the actual sense of the word.
We already did talk about the glowing probably being a misinterpretation of the use of luminol, because radioactivity does not glow in that sense.
I can imagine, that he didn't know the difference between dosimeter and Geiger Counter. But if he didn't know that, how could he be so sure, the guy was a radiologist and actually did, what he says he did?

[Ziljoe]

I really should take notes as I read. As Glennm says , it is like the telephone game but I know it as "Chinese whispers".

It would seem that all those involved in the search didn't think too much about the incident other than it being a tragic loss. They, the searchers and the students obviously speculated about the reason to leave the tent but the vast majority did not know all the details of the case files until much later in life.

It seems that those involved , when receiving the case files and photos later in life only learned about some of the details of the case.

For example, Yuri yudin didn't seem to know what belonged to the hikers when asked to identify the belongings, he had a guess at best.

If all these search students only heard about the radiation( and other sensations )many years after the event , then guesses of Geiger counters at the pass by men in long coats could be a suspicion of what they thought they saw. It is also true that these students were all on different shifts , not shifts during the day hours but shifts as in searching for a few weeks then leaving the pass and being replaced by other searchers . They all saw different things at different times with different amounts of information and quite possibly never communicated much with each other about the incident as they moved on with their own lives.

The radiation is confusing as the readings taken before and after the washing for 3 hours in the lab, suggests that if the searchers found the ravine 4 one day later , there would be no readings of radiation as there would have been in the water another 24 hours . This would have washed the clothes more ? A fluke?.

  It was argued that the samples taken from the clothing were maybe not submerged when in the ravine and not getting washed so this is why the readings were higher . But , if this is the case , then the readings are not particularly high as they weren't getting washed in the stream at all?.

I'm not explaining myself well at all but the readings don't seem exceptionally high if this is the case.

[Senior Maldonado]

To summarize what we know about radiation regarding DPI

From the Case Files

Vol.1, 370-377: Ivanov ordered to perform radiation testing of clothing and parts of bodies of 4 dead hikers. The testing was performed by expert Levashov. Contamination of the clothing by some radioactive material (beta emitter) was detected.
Vol.2, 21: Ivanov inserted results of Levashov’s radiation testing in the first version of the Case Resolution statement. Prosecutor Klinov stroke it out and did not put his signature on the sheet 18.
Vol.1, 369: Ivanov removed results of Levashov’s radiation testing from the case files (sheets 370-377) and put them into separate package.
Vol.1, Receipt:  Ivanov transferred directions from his boss Klinov to the Prosecutor’s office archive worker to keep the package in top secret proceedings section in a secret archive.

Beyond the Case Files

Ivanov’s interview to Bogomolov:
“- I only managed to conduct a radiation examination. Even had to carry on location a device in a large wooden box.
- Geiger counter?
- Yes, it looks like it. It was clicking a lot... I am sure there was radiation. But nobody told me how much, and I didn't find out.”

Mr.Kikoin’s son recollections:
“As far as I can remember, my father took some equipment with him, especially since radiation physics was one of his specialties. Unfortunately, I don't have any detailed information about what kind of device it was. I was 14 years old at the time, so my education wouldn't have been sufficient to ask my father the right question. Additionally, he was bound by a non-disclosure agreement and didn't share any information with his family.”

P.Bartolomey’s investigation (Bartolomey was in Kikoin’s group at the Pass):
“The famous physicist Abram Konstantinovich Kikoin investigated radiation level at the place of death of the hikers. He was also a head of the mountaineering section at UPI, a physics teacher, PhD. Kikoin flew there with the most advanced radiometer of that time, developed by Yuri Stein, also a graduate of UPI. Although that radiometer was quite bulky, it was considered to be very efficient. It was used in 1957 to measure radiation at the site of the famous accident at the Chelyabinsk Mayak.”

E.Okishev’s interview:
“There was one event that put us on alert. When the last bodies were found in May, an order came to collect all items found at the pass and send them for radiological examination. Also, all people who had been in contact with the things found in the tent and nearby were ordered to undergo test for radiation of their bodies. So it was done, but neither a reassuring, nor any other results were made known to us.”
...
“We sent a letter signed by prosecutor Klinov to either Prosecutor General of the USSR or Prosecutor General of Russian Federal republic – I don’t remember exactly now – asking to explain what really we were investigating into? And how it was related to radiation? ”

V.Korotaev’s interview:
“Well, what else alarmed me: when autopsies of the Ravine 4 were performed, there were two vats of ethanol, and we had to submerge into the ethanol on completing each step. Then, after the case was closed, prosecutor Tempalov was given a free coupon to the medical recreation center at the South. He advised me to undergo medical examination too. He hinted that I might become an impotent.”

[sarapuk]

I just want to add that a Geiger counter was definitely used but what was it used for. I dont recall any specific target it was meant to locate.

Please cite your evidence and context.

If I have to keep digging up previous stuff it takes time and it means the same things get posted again. All anyone has to do is check it out on The Dyatlov Pass site, aka, dyatlovpass.com

[sarapuk]

Well you raise some good points. It looks like we all have to agree that there was radiation of some kind. Whether it played a part in the demise of the group is another matter. Problem is that certain types of radiation don't last long for the purposes of us gathering evidence. As any one taken soil samples these days and tested for radiation at the site ?

All we can agree on is that post discovery of the ravine 4 , that readings were taken from their clothes. There bodies and clothes had traveled from the ravine , put in bags, put in a helicopter , been undressed, then readings were taken. No readings are recorded as been taken from the ravine , 1079 , the water or the localised soil.

Yes as far as we know no records of any sampling at the area where the incident took place. Non at the time and as far as we know non since unless anyone knows otherwise.

[sarapuk]

Not sure what you are trying to say here. I'm going by what records we have of what people have stated. Ivanov said many things and they are recorded. We try to piece it all together and make sense of it all. Not easy is it.

I try to say two simple things:
1) The hikers' clothes were contaminated on contact with a radioactive source, which was inside a "fireball". Leakage of radioactive substance was minimal and affected only limited area around the "fireball". It did not spread on the whole terrain.
2) The contact took place at DP on Feb 1st in the evening. It was not in Sverdlovsk, Severny-2, helicopter or wherever else. It was near the last tent's placement.

Fireball ! ? That's the description people often use to describe something that is circular and glowing. Can also be referred to as a UFO.

[sarapuk]

I do not remember, when the geiger counter was first used and by whom. A (very quick) search didn't give any results. So without any confirmation two vague ideas why here could have been measurements:

The students involved in the search were physics and radiology students among others. Maybe one of them build a very simple geiger counter himself, brought it, because why not, and discovered spikes he them told the leaders about, leading to more and more scientific relevant measurements?

One of the hikers (I don't remember who) worked at... I believe it was called Chelyabinsk at the time. The secret town that's known as Mayak also, that people know for the Kyshtym disaster, which happened a few years earlier. Another worked at another PO, where, if I remember correctly, nuclear materials were also handled.
Maybe that could have been the reason, why there were measurements.

There was no Geiger counter in the Dyatlov Groups Inventory. As I have pointed out before there must have been a reason for a Geiger counter or counters to be used in the search.

You understood me wrong. What I mean is: It is possible for someone to build their own Geiger counter (if they know how to and have access to some gadgets. I know someone, who build one himself.
I didn't suggest, that one of the dyatlovites had one with them, but that someone in the search team might have brought one selfbuilt, because why not? It might have been a chance to test it far out in the wilderness. Let's just say, this happened, that someone tested their counter after shifts and got a higher reading than expected. If it was originating from the bodies or the area the bodies were found of maybe an area the search team visited frequently, they would have reported their findings.

I don't say, it must have happened like this. I only say, it might have been a possibility.

I did say that no Geiger counter in the Dyatlov inventory. But one or more was used by the search team and the Geiger counter or counters would be of the military type No mention of home made Geiger counter or counters.

The initial question was, why someone official brought Geiger Counters to the site. I was trying to give a reason as to why radiation could have been detected and how that lead to official measurements, that's all.

That's fair enough. We don't have enough information in the available records to answer that question so we have to make assumptions. For instance the assumption that a Geiger counter was used because someone believed that there may be radioactive element's in the area.

[sarapuk]

You can say that as firmly as you want to, but that doesn't make it real. Proof does. So can you prove your statements?

Great move! You are 10,000-s person, who tells me that I MUST prove certain event in the Dyatlov case. 
Do you truly believe that I am on the same level with Ivanov, Tempalov, Korotaev to prove anything in this criminal case? Especially when 67 years have passed?
USSR's authorities did their best in 1959 to conceal the real cause of the incident. Do you still expect they left you hooks to continue investigation and find proofs?
What I say is MY OPINION, and I hope on this forum it is allowed to share opinions, not only provide proofs.
If you think that anybody has proved anything in this case, please point me to that brilliant work so that I get an outstanding example how proofs can be obtained.

Well it has to be said that you have knocked a nail on the head here. I am sure most of us are trying our best to make sense of this great mystery. This Forum is probably the best in the World. And by different people coming at it from different angles it might throw up something new to consider.

[sarapuk]

If you want your opinion to hold and be more than belief, you MUST prove it. That is you or me or whoever thinks their theory is the one that's right.

No I don't. I am fully OK that other people think differently. The less people understand what happened in 1959, the better to watch their efforts to solve the puzzle. 

Teddy did prove that the tree, she thinks was responsible, fell at a time that might fit into the story. It's not a proof that it did happen like that. But it's definite proof that it is not impossible.

I'll say you more - everything is possible. For example, a hurricane is possible. All top leaders of Communist party of the USSR signed a document on April 10th 1959 that they had been informed that the hikers died because of a hurricane. However much later, just a few years ago, representative of the russian Prosecutors office Mr.Kuryakov informed the society that the hikers died due to two conseсutive avalanches - one on the slope, another in the ravine. As for the fallen tree, I know that every forest have trees that fell in 1959. So what?

And last, there's my opinion: The USSR's authorities did not conceal anything.

My opinion is that your opinion regarding that is totaly wrong.  )

Well, then, good to know.

So, about that Geiger Counter. I somehow remembered to have read as well, someone mentioned that during the search someone had one there. I couldn't find that testimony by reading through this site, it was not referenced at the spots I looked (which does not mean, there is none, just that if there is, it's nowhere I expected it to logically be stored). So I asked perplexity (which again is no prove, so if someone actually find's the testimony, I'd love to get the link, thanks. :) ) and it said, that fact is no fact, but rather someone mentioned years later, that someone - unspecified person - had a Geiger Counter there. So I guess, it's probably a case of hearsay and fading memories. At the moment I don't find the energy and concentration to read all of the case files (again)...

It can be tedious having to go back and dig up old stuff. I've been on this Forum for years now. So much information has cropped up in that time. But a lot of useful stuff is not in the Case Files per se. Check out other articles in dyatlovpass.com  site. I've seen reference to a Geiger counter being brought in to the area and used.

[sarapuk]

He didn't even give an official statement for the case files.
And there's the thing with the dosimeter again. Those don't click. And they don't measure in the actual sense of the word.
We already did talk about the glowing probably being a misinterpretation of the use of luminol, because radioactivity does not glow in that sense.
I can imagine, that he didn't know the difference between dosimeter and Geiger Counter. But if he didn't know that, how could he be so sure, the guy was a radiologist and actually did, what he says he did?

As far as I know there is no official statement regarding the use of and findings of a Geiger Counter. At least one was used but no records of what it registered.