Accident & killing

[Ziljoe]

Sorry old jedi, I'm not meaning to correct you , I keep rereading things and come up with different interpretations, when things are written professionally I now understand that they are written to try and not leave any ambiguity , or at least where they can.

His view ,Boris Alekseevich Vozrozhdenniy, if that's who you are referring to , does not say anything with what you share in the link that you quoted. That is someone else's interpretation and speculation.

The fracture is on the left and the diagram with the red hash lines represents hemorrhages in the muscles. However the autopsy says, The crack is located at a distance of 1.5 cm from the sagittal suture. In addition, there is a divergence of sutures in the region of the temporoparietal suture on the left, as well as on the right /postmortem/ I think the post mortem is meant to say posthumous , I don't know if this means the divergence of the sutures is after death. 

[SURI]

From the whole scene it is clear that the four tourists on the slope were scattered, fleeing from danger, except for Dyatlov. I think he had already been immobilized by the tent and carried to the site. Two Yuris hid in a tree. It all could have started somewhere on the slope where the tracks of 8 tourists end. In contrast, the other four tourists stayed together until the end. They were in no hurry, they calmly built a den for the four of them and built a fire. They even had time to take some clothes from the two Yuris. Their peace was only interrupted by the subsequent tragic event. The two differently functioning groups are simply visible at first glance.

[OLD JEDI 72]

Sorry old jedi, I'm not meaning to correct you , I keep rereading things and come up with different interpretations, when things are written professionally I now understand that they are written to try and not leave any ambiguity , or at least where they can.

His view ,Boris Alekseevich Vozrozhdenniy, if that's who you are referring to , does not say anything with what you share in the link that you quoted. That is someone else's interpretation and speculation.

The fracture is on the left and the diagram with the red hash lines represents hemorrhages in the muscles. However the autopsy says, The crack is located at a distance of 1.5 cm from the sagittal suture. In addition, there is a divergence of sutures in the region of the temporoparietal suture on the left, as well as on the right /postmortem/ I think the post mortem is meant to say posthumous , I don't know if this means the divergence of the sutures is after death.

No need to apologize for correcting me, I was being sincere and not sarcastic.

[OLD JEDI 72]

From the whole scene it is clear that the four tourists on the slope were scattered, fleeing from danger, except for Dyatlov. I think he had already been immobilized by the tent and carried to the site. Two Yuris hid in a tree. It all could have started somewhere on the slope where the tracks of 8 tourists end. In contrast, the other four tourists stayed together until the end. They were in no hurry, they calmly built a den for the four of them and built a fire. They even had time to take some clothes from the two Yuris. Their peace was only interrupted by the subsequent tragic event. The two differently functioning groups are simply visible at first glance.

I think it was Zina who wrote that Igor was being rude and that she hardly recognized him when he acted that way. Also, other examples of tension in the group, I think it was Krivonischenko who was forced to sleep too close to the fire and called everyone traitors. Dubinina contradicts herself and says sleeping in the same bed with Zina is like a dream, but the mood is evil as hell. It could be a combination of two theories. For example, a snow slab releases and some are seriously hurt. A fight later rages because someone like Zolotaryov already warned against camping directly on the mountain. Or after the tent event, Igor insists everyone help the wounded to the tree line and only when everyone is taken care of do they attempt to return. I realize your theory is dependent on that mesh photo being Slobodins corpse and I do like the way your mind works however I have to respectfully disagree and think it's more pareidolia than anything. However, it seems you are the first one to ever equate that photo to something tangible instead of angels and demons so props to you for that!

[SURI]

The photo doesn't play a role in this. I deduced this theory from the overall scene and the placement of the bodies. The first person to be neutralized would of course be Dyatlov. And that right near the tent. His jacket and flashlight were also found there. His finding of the body does not indicate that he was in motion before. I think he was the first to freeze to death.

[OLD JEDI 72]

The photo doesn't play a role in this. I deduced this theory from the overall scene and the placement of the bodies. The first person to be neutralized would of course be Dyatlov. And that right near the tent. His jacket and flashlight were also found there. His finding of the body does not indicate that he was in motion before. I think he was the first to freeze to death.

Dyatlov was found the furthest from the tent in relation to the three that attempted to return. His arms were clenched like he was wrestling with someone or trying to prevent someone from choking him. The flashlight can be explained as a beacon for return and his jacket used to stuff a hole in the tent at the time. Am I missing something about your theory? I admit I am new so forgive my ignorance but are you claiming he was killed next to the tent and then dragged down the slope a half mile or more?

[SURI]

I'm also new to this forum. He definitely wrestled, but I think at the tent and then he didn't get up and was brought to the place where he was found. The flashlight on the tent was turned off, the second one that was turned on on the slope was more of a beacon. There are different testimonies about the jacket. Furthermore, I think neither Slobodin nor Zina ever got to the cedar. The fire was started by four from the ravine, while the two Yuris hid from them in a tree.

[Arjan]

After skimming all comments, I note that a few details have not been addressed.

Urine in the bladder
The post mortem report of Rustem states: The bladder contained up to 200 cm3 of cloudy pale yellow liquid.
Contrerary: the post mortem report of Igor states that he had in the mortuary 1000 cm3 of liquid in his bladder: this is a normal value for victims found after death by hypothermia.

Like Yuri Dor (found with 150 cm3 urine in his bladder), this detail suggests that Rustem en Yuri Dor had not survived until their body lost consciousness for the last time when the core temperature of both bodies had declined below 29 degrees Celsius.

In case of Yuri Dor it may not be excluded that he had been victim of a rewarming shock halfway during the process of being victim of hypothermia
In case of Rustem it may well be likely that at a stroke caused by his skill, brain injury.

Personally my analysis shows that he had spent the night in the tent together with Zinaida and both had descended after breakfast to the Cedar/Ravine area to search for the seven others.
Reading the estimate time for a last meal in the post mortem report, this analysis shows that both had breakfast around 8 or 8:30 pm.
Both details may well result in Rustem succumbing to a sudden stroke around 2 - 3 pm on Feb 2nd.

b) lividity spots 
The post mortem report of Rustem states: Postmortem lividity is present with blue-red spots abundantly located on the posterior surface of the neck, torso and extremities.
These spots are seen on the back of his body, while he had been found face down: this is a clear indicator that he had been turned over some 6 hours after his death.

According to my analysis, Zinaida had cared for the unconscious body of Rustem from around 2 - 3 pm to around 8 pm or so on Feb 2nd.
At 8 pm Zinaida had turned Rustem's body face down and she had tried to make it back to the tent in a state of 'dream going home' as one of the last survival instincts in humans. Her body core temperature had dropped already too low: she had not made it very far.

c) Skull fracture and options to operate and survive afterwards
Books on survival of mountaineering accidents (e.g. after a fall) report survivors of similar skull fracture/damage as Rustem, but these skull fracture/damage may cause a sudden fatal stroke as well some time afterwards.

d) Logic places for having a skull accident
Looking at the maps, there are two places for having accidents resulting in skull accidents:
1. During the ascend - 35 % on average over 1 km - after slipping and gaining speed during the slide to 30 km/u and hitting a blunt rock or tree while another victim hits the head from the other side
2. Fall from the icy side of the ravine face down.

According to my analysis including the two watches around Thibo's wrist:
- Thibo fell sideways from the side of the ravine around 16 pm Feb 1st
- Rustem or had obtained his injury during or the ascend and as wounded had stayed with Zinaida in the tent during the fatal night for the others, or Rustem had slipped from the icy side of the ravine while trying to retrieve the dead body of Lyudmila from the ravine to be placed next to the dead bodies of Alexander Semyon and Thibo. In this case the ravine had been too icy to succeed.

[SURI]

But why would Slobodin go looking for other tourists with only one shoe?

[OLD JEDI 72]

Something I always wondered is what if some of these folks lost a shoe due to the deep snow pulling one off? Do all the people only wearing one shoe have the other shoe accounted for in the tent?

[OLD JEDI 72]

After skimming all comments, I note that a few details have not been addressed.

Urine in the bladder
The post mortem report of Rustem states: The bladder contained up to 200 cm3 of cloudy pale yellow liquid.
Contrerary: the post mortem report of Igor states that he had in the mortuary 1000 cm3 of liquid in his bladder: this is a normal value for victims found after death by hypothermia.

Like Yuri Dor (found with 150 cm3 urine in his bladder), this detail suggests that Rustem en Yuri Dor had not survived until their body lost consciousness for the last time when the core temperature of both bodies had declined below 29 degrees Celsius.


In case of Yuri Dor it may not be excluded that he had been victim of a rewarming shock halfway during the process of being victim of hypothermia
In case of Rustem it may well be likely that at a stroke caused by his skill, brain injury.

Personally my analysis shows that he had spent the night in the tent together with Zinaida and both had descended after breakfast to the Cedar/Ravine area to search for the seven others.
Reading the estimate time for a last meal in the post mortem report, this analysis shows that both had breakfast around 8 or 8:30 pm.
Both details may well result in Rustem succumbing to a sudden stroke around 2 - 3 pm on Feb 2nd.

b) lividity spots 
The post mortem report of Rustem states: Postmortem lividity is present with blue-red spots abundantly located on the posterior surface of the neck, torso and extremities.
These spots are seen on the back of his body, while he had been found face down: this is a clear indicator that he had been turned over some 6 hours after his death.

According to my analysis, Zinaida had cared for the unconscious body of Rustem from around 2 - 3 pm to around 8 pm or so on Feb 2nd.
At 8 pm Zinaida had turned Rustem's body face down and she had tried to make it back to the tent in a state of 'dream going home' as one of the last survival instincts in humans. Her body core temperature had dropped already too low: she had not made it very far.

c) Skull fracture and options to operate and survive afterwards
Books on survival of mountaineering accidents (e.g. after a fall) report survivors of similar skull fracture/damage as Rustem, but these skull fracture/damage may cause a sudden fatal stroke as well some time afterwards.

d) Logic places for having a skull accident
Looking at the maps, there are two places for having accidents resulting in skull accidents:
1. During the ascend - 35 % on average over 1 km - after slipping and gaining speed during the slide to 30 km/u and hitting a blunt rock or tree while another victim hits the head from the other side
2. Fall from the icy side of the ravine face down.

According to my analysis including the two watches around Thibo's wrist:
- Thibo fell sideways from the side of the ravine around 16 pm Feb 1st
- Rustem or had obtained his injury during or the ascend and as wounded had stayed with Zinaida in the tent during the fatal night for the others, or Rustem had slipped from the icy side of the ravine while trying to retrieve the dead body of Lyudmila from the ravine to be placed next to the dead bodies of Alexander Semyon and Thibo. In this case the ravine had been too icy to succeed.

Very nice outline. Some issues I have are that the lividity could have been misdiagnosed. I'll have to find it when I have time but somewhere I read that they could have been spots related to the hypothermia itself. I can see both Yuri's being moved after death but there's really nothing nefarious about it imo. The other stuff about Slobodin and Zina in the tent all night I just can't fathom.

[GlennM]

I find it unlikely that Rustem sustained his injuries neither at the tent, nor on the descent to the forest. Between cedar and ravine, I like the injuries occurring at the ravine rather than cedar. If at the ravine, then perhaps he, Lyuda and Zolo all fell together.

[OLD JEDI 72]

I find it unlikely that Rustem sustained his injuries neither at the tent, nor on the descent to the forest. Between cedar and ravine, I like the injuries occurring at the ravine rather than cedar. If at the ravine, then perhaps he, Lyuda and Zolo all fell together.

No disrespect to any living members of the extended Dyatlov family but I don't think Igor was cut to be a leader. Ok so he built a radio, and? He was an engineer that made a stove, and?  Slobodin in everything I see was the natural leader. Everyone thinks the coverup was something military but that's the distraction. How would it look if seven comrades and two comradesses (I made that word up lol) killed each other in the Soviet Union? What I see is after the ravine incident is Rustem and Igor fighting and Rustem winning while Zina kept going. His win was hollow, but it was still a win if someone recognizes it..

[OLD JEDI 72]

I don't think the group were against each other at all. There history and lives are all quite well documented, or at least easy to follow. Photos , employment, friends , hobbies etc . I believe Zina and Zolotaryov had options to choose which group they hiked with and it randomly happened that Zolo ended up in this group. The secret camera is a myth and as Glennm suggests , what's the point of a secret camera? To bludgeon the groups to death? To take secret photos of what? Why have a camera to take photos of anything other than the hike?

Sorry for the delayed reaction but why don't you think that the majority of the group (under 25) could turn on each other given the circumstances? RIP Mr. Yudin, but he really knew, and I don't think it was sciatica at all that caused him to bail! And Zolo (I like that moniker, reminds me of the General from the movie Romancing the Stone) was there because he requested it, and like Lydia (my Americanism) said, "At first nobody wanted this Zolotaryov, for he is a stranger, but then we all agreed, because you can't refuse."

She reminds me of Yakov Smirnoff with that line.

Be a cold war Soviet and cast aside all ethnocentricities.

[SURI]

One image graphically shows that the tourists' footprints end somewhere in the line near Svobodin. After that, they were not visible, and then fewer were visible. On top of all this, Svobodin, of the three on the slope, was found sideways, outside their line. That's why I think it all started in the place between those upper and lower prints. There they split into three directions. Up until then they had been moving slowly and orderly because they were carrying Dyatlov.

[OLD JEDI 72]

One image graphically shows that the tourists' footprints end somewhere in the line near Svobodin. After that, they were not visible, and then fewer were visible. On top of all this, Svobodin, of the three on the slope, was found sideways, outside their line. That's why I think it all started in the place between those upper and lower prints. There they split into three directions. Up until then they had been moving slowly and orderly because they were carrying Dyatlov.

It could be Zina in the mesh photo?  Or the pile of clothes that wasn't snowed under because it was in the woods? With all due respect, sir, c'mon.

[SURI]

I read somewhere that Slobodin had a black felt boot on his right foot. (Valenka)

[Ziljoe]

I don't think the group were against each other at all. There history and lives are all quite well documented, or at least easy to follow. Photos , employment, friends , hobbies etc . I believe Zina and Zolotaryov had options to choose which group they hiked with and it randomly happened that Zolo ended up in this group. The secret camera is a myth and as Glennm suggests , what's the point of a secret camera? To bludgeon the groups to death? To take secret photos of what? Why have a camera to take photos of anything other than the hike?

Sorry for the delayed reaction but why don't you think that the majority of the group (under 25) could turn on each other given the circumstances? RIP Mr. Yudin, but he really knew, and I don't think it was sciatica at all that caused him to bail! And Zolo (I like that moniker, reminds me of the General from the movie Romancing the Stone) was there because he requested it, and like Lydia (my Americanism) said, "At first nobody wanted this Zolotaryov, for he is a stranger, but then we all agreed, because you can't refuse."

She reminds me of Yakov Smirnoff with that line.

Be a cold war Soviet and cast aside all ethnocentricities.

I'm not sure by what you mean when saying " given the circumstances"? . We don't have the circumstances and that's the problem. Of course people can fall out and turn on each other and such things are recorded on other hikes amongst tourists and some of these were involved in the search. One such incident ended in the group splitting up and some drowning . Tourism was a big pastime in the Soviet Union for many people , as it was in most countries. I think there were at least 11 other hikes by students in that part of the Urals that winter ( it may include summer).

 Two of the closest location tourist groups to Dyatlov group also ran in to difficulty,  a burnt tent , shortage of sleeping bags, illness and a case of frostbite etc.

In this instance, I think the dyatlov group would have enough sense and diversity with leadership skills ( irrelevant of who may have been the actual leader)  to resolve any problems encountered. I can't see an internal group fight or leadership skills being the spark to leave the tent and equipment.

The non life threatening injuries of bruises and abrasions are common in hypothermia cases, the broken ribs and skull fracture are a little more difficult to explain but do tend to fit with where and how the bodies were found.

If my memory serves me correctly, Zolotaryov had a choice of a couple of different hikes but chose the Dyatlov group . Dyatlovs group were all familiar with each other and they lost their 10th member due to him having had too many hikes and not fulfilling his commitments, this is why Zolotaryov comes to be in the group. Lyuda is only stating the obvious, who wants a stranger in a small tent for 3 weeks ?. It's not that they don't want Zolotaryov, the don't really know him , it's just strangers take a bit of work and they got to like him.

Ps, what's a cold war Soviet ? 

[Ziljoe]

I read somewhere that Slobodin had a black felt boot on his right foot. (Valenka)

Yes he did. It can also be seen in the autopsy photos.

[OLD JEDI 72]

I don't think the group were against each other at all. There history and lives are all quite well documented, or at least easy to follow. Photos , employment, friends , hobbies etc . I believe Zina and Zolotaryov had options to choose which group they hiked with and it randomly happened that Zolo ended up in this group. The secret camera is a myth and as Glennm suggests , what's the point of a secret camera? To bludgeon the groups to death? To take secret photos of what? Why have a camera to take photos of anything other than the hike?

Sorry for the delayed reaction but why don't you think that the majority of the group (under 25) could turn on each other given the circumstances? RIP Mr. Yudin, but he really knew, and I don't think it was sciatica at all that caused him to bail! And Zolo (I like that moniker, reminds me of the General from the movie Romancing the Stone) was there because he requested it, and like Lydia (my Americanism) said, "At first nobody wanted this Zolotaryov, for he is a stranger, but then we all agreed, because you can't refuse."

She reminds me of Yakov Smirnoff with that line.

Be a cold war Soviet and cast aside all ethnocentricities.

I'm not sure by what you mean when saying " given the circumstances"? . We don't have the circumstances and that's the problem. Of course people can fall out and turn on each other and such things are recorded on other hikes amongst tourists and some of these were involved in the search. One such incident ended in the group splitting up and some drowning . Tourism was a big pastime in the Soviet Union for many people , as it was in most countries. I think there were at least 11 other hikes by students in that part of the Urals that winter ( it may include summer).

 Two of the closest location tourist groups to Dyatlov group also ran in to difficulty,  a burnt tent , shortage of sleeping bags, illness and a case of frostbite etc.

In this instance, I think the dyatlov group would have enough sense and diversity with leadership skills ( irrelevant of who may have been the actual leader)  to resolve any problems encountered. I can't see an internal group fight or leadership skills being the spark to leave the tent and equipment.

The non life threatening injuries of bruises and abrasions are common in hypothermia cases, the broken ribs and skull fracture are a little more difficult to explain but do tend to fit with where and how the bodies were found.

If my memory serves me correctly, Zolotaryov had a choice of a couple of different hikes but chose the Dyatlov group . Dyatlovs group were all familiar with each other and they lost their 10th member due to him having had too many hikes and not fulfilling his commitments, this is why Zolotaryov comes to be in the group. Lyuda is only stating the obvious, who wants a stranger in a small tent for 3 weeks ?. It's not that they don't want Zolotaryov, the don't really know him , it's just strangers take a bit of work and they got to like him.

Ps, what's a cold war Soviet ?

The circumstances would be kids with no common sense thinking it's warm because the rush of "warm" air that sounded like a jet engine? It's called a weather front; but they didn't know that. And Cold War Soviets are the people they were at the time. Put yourself in their minds, it's not a bad thing necessarily lol. I try to empathize. Too many people confuse that word with sympathize. Both girls were virgins, probably most of the dudes were too.

[Ziljoe]

The circumstances would be kids with no common sense thinking it's warm because the rush of "warm" air that sounded like a jet engine? It's called a weather front; but they didn't know that. And Cold War Soviets are the people they were at the time. Put yourself in their minds, it's not a bad thing necessarily lol. I try to empathize. Too many people confuse that word with sympathize. Both girls were virgins, probably most of the dudes were too.

I don't think or see them as "kids" and certainly they were not without common sense?.  To put it into context from my perspective and my understanding of tourism, the Dyatlovs were fit and well experienced, they had all undertaken many hikes and tours, in all season's in previous years . Likewise, so did many other students and people at that time. Many of the general population would have cold weather experience and expertise as that's just the environment that they have lived with , from the Mansi to the other indigenous people. I'm sure the Mansi have very young kids that lived in those conditions.

I don't think they thought it was warm , perhaps less cold at certain times ? We can see that the temperature can vary considerably, the hikers would know this and that it could get cold very quickly and I'm sure they understood weather fronts , winds, storms etc. Remember, there are other groups of student hikers doing the same thing.

I'm not sure what the putting my mind into a Cold War Soviet is meant to mean? ( To many variables) Or being a virgin for that matter....I don't see the connection to the incident.  From looking at the historical hikes of the group and other links to the Soviet Union , many aspects of the students were similar to the west , education , musical instruments, outdoor activities, they had camera's, watches , booze , fags , films , songs and love . They were chased out of a railway station for singing songs , spoke to children about their adventures , wanted to visit the museum but we're short on time , watched films with the locals , showed interest in the Mansi etc.

It all looks pretty healthy to me  , it's just youth learning about life and enjoying the outdoors , probably better educated , happier , fitter and mentally happier than much of today's people and perhaps saving their virginty for the right person for them.

It would seem something tipped the odds against them as is usually the case from the UK to the USA , Europe and everywhere else in-between where it comes to incidents that involve cold weather , the cold got the better of them .

How are you using your empathy and what ethnocentricities are you casting aside to be a Cold War Soviet ?
 

[SURI]

I think it would be good to get back on topic and not stray from it. For example, I wonder if Krivonischenko and Doroshenko could have left some kind of sign on the tree, because I think they were the only ones who could have done that. Has anyone ever examined that tree up close? Krivonischenko has already left us the last photo, but we can't decipher it. But I think it's the light from the flashlight.

[OLD JEDI 72]

I think it would be good to get back on topic and not stray from it. For example, I wonder if Krivonischenko and Doroshenko could have left some kind of sign on the tree, because I think they were the only ones who could have done that. Has anyone ever examined that tree up close? Krivonischenko has already left us the last photo, but we can't decipher it. But I think it's the light from the flashlight.

The fact the tree was a mile away from the tent and that they were underdressed even before dying really speaks to their resilience. I'm not sure they would be in their right minds to leave any sign.

[GlennM]

Like all of us, you are circling around the unknown compelling force. Surely, rash impulse is an explanation motivated by rivalry, poor immature choice or desparation. Remember there were nine functioning minds there and we have evidence from the diaries that all were not sheep when it comes to decisions. So there is that compared to external compelling force. Some advocate they were forced, some say lured from the tent. I hope Teddy can help with her opinion regarding the wintery conditions being that force, which I favor.

[OLD JEDI 72]

I just got done shoveling snow for 15 minutes in -5.56 Celsius. I'm in my early 50's but have always been athletic. I was dressed pretty decent with a cap and gloves and never really got cold because of my constant digging. Athletes in their early 20s have a much higher heart rate so I can see how the two Yuri's survived as long as they did because they were busy. My instinct stills tells me that two separate events happened. The first one I think would be a slab avalanche or brawl in the tent, followed by the second event downslope. I think once people started dying and some tried returning, Slobodin and Dyatlov fought. His arms being clenched is the clincher for me lol.

[GlennM]

You could be right. There are others who think the ravine is key. In that regard, one must consider the question of the clothes found in the den and on the path to the den. There is the issue of the cut branches and their placement in the den. Since the Ravine 4 were found outside the den, a question can be raised about that. The theories range from trip/fall to altercation to blast damage to assassins. Take your pick! You can appreciate how frustrating it was that Zolo did not write a final note.

I favor the trip/fall over a collapsed cornice at the ravine. You rightly state that activity keeps you going in cold weather, but I think we are contemplating extreme cold and prolonged exposure.

[SURI]

If Zolotaryov had a pencil and notebook with him, even a newspaper would have been enough; he could have written something earlier, perhaps by the fire, when they had time to cut clothes. But he didn't.

[OLD JEDI 72]

You could be right. There are others who think the ravine is key. In that regard, one must consider the question of the clothes found in the den and on the path to the den. There is the issue of the cut branches and their placement in the den. Since the Ravine 4 were found outside the den, a question can be raised about that. The theories range from trip/fall to altercation to blast damage to assassins. Take your pick! You can appreciate how frustrating it was that Zolo did not write a final note.

I favor the trip/fall over a collapsed cornice at the ravine. You rightly state that activity keeps you going in cold weather, but I think we are contemplating extreme cold and prolonged exposure.

I had to refresh myself on what a snow cornice is but it's definitely a possibility.  So which direction would the cornice face? This diagram is confusing where it labels the upwind part. Does the cornice face the slope or face the cedar? The ravine is before the cedar so how didn't they see it beforehand? They had to have passed it on the way to the cedar and known what it was.


pic hosting

[SURI]

If I reverse the colors of these two images (Eagle 1 light and Eagle 2 light) again, I find that they are photos of the same thing. Once up close and once from a distance. Maybe the other pictures are also taken in pairs and there are ten of them.

[SURI]

For newcomers, these are negatives from Zolotaryov's camera, which he had around his neck at the time of his death.