Medical question

[sarapuk]

That’s fascinating. Where could this have come from, in such a remote snowy place? As far as I know, only 1) tree falling, or 2) explosion.

For example, the doctor compared it to a high speed auto crash (which of course couldn’t happen there). Some people put their money on a collapse of a snow cornice, but that would be intense squeezing or crushing.

Or our infamous unknown force. The same force responsible for the extraordinary injuries to 2 of the group. And lets not forget the others who were found well away from the ravine but still had injuries to their bodies.

[sarapuk]

The definition of high velocity trauma is rapid energy transfer.

You are looking for:
gunshot wounds (no bullet holes)
high-speed motor vehicle accidents (not possible)
falls from significant heights (should be discussed?)
blast injuries
a fallen tree

Taking advantage of AI, I asked what force could do severe, lethal damage to the internal body including broken ribs, but leave the external body unmarked, and after all this time, it said the same thing as the dr from 1959: high velocity trauma such as high-speed motor vehicle accident, or explosion (rapid energy transfer). (It didn't mention a tree falling, but that is too specific and outside the scope of this question for AI. I will ask it next.)

I asked if an explosion could also cause severe burns and it said yes, but not from the explosion itself, rather from hot gases and heat, and that a lot depends on where each individual was located when said explosion occurred.:

How explosions cause burns
The heat of an explosion can create “flash burns,” where exposed skin is burned in a fraction of a second by radiant heat and hot gases.

The Ravine4's internal injuries with no external marks, and Krivonischenko's leg burn, are facts that need to be always taken into account when tracking down the cause of death. To me, these injuries point to only two possibilities: an explosion or a tree falling.

What kind of explosion?
1) It is known that geologists were using explosives.
2) Third-stage rocket that went off course and is leaking.
3) Plasma ball (due to highly charged weather conditions, thundersnow, magnetic anomalies)



​

Interesting. Well its not a bad answer from AI actually. A tree is hardly likely to be travelling fast as a car to cause that type of trauma. Also lets not forget the extraordinary injuries, especially to Dubinina.
Injuries that could not be caused by such a trauma.

[sarapuk]

I asked AI and a snow collapse matches quite well. I even put the quote from the autopsy .


Conclusion:

Based on the forensic examination of the body of L. A. Dubinina I think that the death of Dubinina was caused by massive hemorrhage into the right ventricle, multiple bilateral rib fractures, and internal bleeding into the thoracic cavity.

The said damage was probably caused by an impact of great force causing severe closed lethal trauma to the chest of Dubinina. The trauma was caused during life and is the result of high force impact with subsequent fall, throw or bruise to the chest of Dubinina.

Damage to the soft tissue of the head and ‘bath skin’ wrinkling to the extremities are the post-mortem changes (rot and decay) of Dubinina’s body, which was underwater before it was found.

Dubinina died a violent death.

Medical examiner signature (Vozrozhdenniy)

Based on the examination of the body of Zolotaryov, 37 years old, I think that he died due to multiple fractures of the right ribs with internal hemorrhaging to the pleural cavity while at a low temperature. The above mentioned multiple fractures of Zolotaryov’s ribs with hemorrhaging into the pleural cavity were caused in vivo as an effect of a high-power impact to the chest of Zolotaryov at the moment of his fall, squeezing or throwing. The damage of the soft tissue in the area of Mr. Zolotaryov’s head and the presence of bath skin in the area of fingers and upper and lower extremities are postmortem changes in the body of Zolotaryov, which was underwater before it was found.

Zolotaryov died a violent death.

Forensic Medical Examiner - signature (Vozrozhdenniy)




The autopsy reports with the knowledge they had at the time seem to fit with what AI says. Crush injury looks to be consistent and we have a tree and/or 3 meters of snow above the 4 in the ravine with the injuries. It's not just the fractured ribs that fit with a crush but the internal bleeding in the right ventricle thoracic cavity and plural cavity.

AI Overview



+10
A flail chest—where adjacent ribs are fractured in at least two places, causing a segment of the chest wall to move independently (paradoxically)—can occur without visible external marks (bruising or lacerations) due to the nature of the impacting force.
This scenario, known as a "silent" or mark-free flail chest, is usually caused by:
Significant Blunt Force Over a Large Surface Area: A broad, flat object impacting the chest can cause massive internal damage (fracturing ribs in multiple spots) without breaking the skin or causing immediate, visible bruising.
Deceleration Injury (e.g., Seat Belt or Steering Wheel): In high-speed motor vehicle accidents, the body may hit the steering wheel, causing immense pressure. If the energy is distributed across a large area, the skin may remain intact despite fractured, flail ribs underneath.
Rapid Crush Injury: A heavy object landing directly on the chest can crush the ribs, leading to double-fractures and a flail segment. The pressure is blunt and applied instantaneously, which may not cause surface bruising.
Significant Falls (especially in the Elderly): A fall from a height onto a blunt surface (like a railing or edge of a table) can cause such injuries. The elderly are particularly susceptible because osteoporosis makes their bones fragile, allowing a lower-force impact to break ribs in multiple places without severe soft tissue damage.


AI Overview



+13
A collapsed snow hole (snow cave) can cause severe crush injuries due to the high density and weight of compacted snow, leading to life-threatening thoracic trauma such as flail chest. A flail chest occurs when 3 or more consecutive ribs are fractured in 2 or more places, creating a free-floating, unstable segment of the chest wall that moves paradoxically (inward on inspiration, outward on expiration).
Mechanisms and Injuries in Snow Collapse
Crush Mechanism: When a snow structure collapses, it can act similarly to a structural collapse or avalanche, trapping the occupant and applying intense, direct pressure on the chest and abdomen.
Flail Chest Pathophysiology: The intense pressure breaks ribs in multiple locations, causing a portion of the rib cage to separate from the thoracic cavity.
Associated Injuries: Along with flail segments, these injuries are frequently accompanied by severe pulmonary contusions (bruising of the lung), pneumothorax (collapsed lung), or hemothorax (blood in the chest cavity).
Systemic Effects: The compression can lead to hypoxia (low oxygen),, and in cases of prolonged compression, crush syndrome, which can cause muscle damage and kidney failure.

AI Overview


+14
Autopsy findings in fatal flail chest crush injuries, typically resulting from high-energy blunt trauma like vehicular accidents or heavy compression, reveal extensive damage beyond the broken ribs and paradoxical movement. Key, often fatal, findings include severe underlying pulmonary contusion (bruising), hemothorax (blood in the chest cavity), and, frequently, signs of crush asphyxia.
Other common autopsy findings from flail chest crush injuries include:
Internal Intrathoracic Findings
Pulmonary Contusion/Laceration: Nearly universal; involves hemorrhage, edema, and sometimes necrosis of the lung parenchyma, which is often the actual cause of respiratory failure.
Pneumothorax and Hemothorax: Air (pneumothorax) or significant blood (hemothorax) trapped in the pleural cavity, which causes lung collapse.
Cardiac and Great Vessel Injuries: Contusion of the heart muscle, rupture of the aorta, or hemopericardium (blood in the pericardial sac).
Tracheobronchial Injury: Lacerations to the airway, which can lead to air leak and mediastinal emphysema.
Diaphragmatic Rupture: Tears in the diaphragm due to high-pressure abdominal compression.
External and Soft Tissue Findings
Crush Asphyxia (Traumatic Asphyxia): Characterized by intense purple congestion and swelling of the face, neck, and upper chest, caused by increased intrathoracic pressure.
Subconjunctival and Facial Petechiae: Minute red dots (petechial hemorrhages) on the skin of the face, neck, and conjunctivae (eyes), resulting from blood vessel rupture due to pressure.
Seatbelt or Steering Wheel Marks: External bruises or abrasions, which can be clues to the mechanism of high-energy impact.
Subcutaneous Emphysema: Air under the skin, which creates a "crackling" or "crunching" feeling when palpated.
Associated Non-Thoracic Injuries
Solid Organ Damage: Injury to the liver, spleen, or kidneys, often associated with lower rib fractures.
Spinal Injuries: Fractures or dislocations of the thoracic spine, a common result of high-energy trauma.
Rhabdomyolysis: In cases of prolonged crushing, breakdown of muscle tissue may occur, which can be seen as myoglobinuria (myoglobin in urine).

Yes, the combination of injuries described—hemorrhage into the right ventricle, multiple bilateral rib fractures, and internal bleeding into the thoracic cavity (hemothorax)—could be caused by severe crush injuries from a snow cave or ice cave collapse.
These injuries are consistent with high-energy blunt force trauma, which is frequently seen in cases where heavy ice or snow falls onto a person.
Mechanism of Injury in a Collapse
Crush Mechanism: When a snow or ice cave collapses, the victim is subjected to intense, concentrated weight. If this weight lands on the chest, it causes a "crush injury".
Multiple Bilateral Rib Fractures: The severe pressure can break multiple ribs on both sides of the chest, potentially creating a "flail chest," where a segment of the rib cage becomes detached from the rest.
Hemothorax (Internal Bleeding): The fractured ribs can lacerate intercostal blood vessels or the lung tissue, leading to massive bleeding into the thoracic cavity (hemothorax).
Right Ventricle Hemorrhage: The massive, direct impact can compress the heart between the sternum and spine, causing blunt cardiac injury or even perforation of the heart by a broken rib fragment.
Relevance to Snow/Ice Cave Collapses
High Impact Force: Collapsed ice, in particular, is extremely heavy and dense, capable of causing fatal trauma to the chest, head, and bones.
Documented Fatalities: Similar incidents, such as ice cave collapses in Iceland or Washington, have resulted in fatalities with severe crush injuries and broken bones.
Similar to Other Accidents: The trauma is similar in nature to injuries sustained in major motor vehicle collisions, specifically those involving blunt chest trauma.

AI Overview



+14
A massive hemorrhage into the right ventricle combined with flail ribs, often resulting from severe crush injuries such as landslides, constitutes a critical, life-threatening thoracic emergency. It requires immediate, aggressive, and specialized care to manage the unstable chest wall (flail segment) and potential underlying cardiac rupture or contusion.
Key Clinical Aspects
Mechanism of Injury: Landslide crush injuries involve immense blunt force, causing multiple rib fractures (3+ ribs in 2+ places) and severe chest wall destabilization, known as flail chest.
Pathophysiology:
Flail Chest: The damaged chest wall moves paradoxically (inward on inspiration, outward on expiration), which severely restricts breathing and causes acute respiratory distress.
Right Ventricular (RV) Hemorrhage: The direct crushing force can cause cardiac contusion or rupture. Because the right ventricle is positioned directly behind the sternum, it is highly susceptible to blunt trauma.
Complications: These injuries are often accompanied by significant haemothorax (blood in the chest cavity), pneumothorax (collapsed lung), and severe lung contusion.


The cedar branches were definitely used for a fire . A lot of melted snow was found around the fire when the snow had melted, some of the branches were under one of the Yruis about the same diameter as the fire and they were broken in several places. There were also branches that were broken left hanging on lower branches . The fire was estimated to have burned for an 1.5 hours. Burns were found on the socks and clothing of a number of the hikers , they are mostly superficial and localised . They are consistent with people trying to warm their limbs , especially when feeling has gone. A wool sock was found in the fire along with a number of items of clothing , one being a handkerchief and a hat/balaclava. The sock matched the other one on Yuri's body that he was wearing.

I would suspect that the majority of burns to the flesh and clothing were done at the fire around the cedar.

Well all that proves is that AI is not all its made out to be. Its a slightly improved version of Google search. Long way to go before its significant. And the injuries to Dubinina are the most interesting. Not all could have been caused by trauma and the rotting theory doesnt stand up to scrutiny which I have done years ago.
 

[sarapuk]

Thanks, Ziljoe, this will take me awhile to read through so I will respond after.

I don't think the sad little fire that burned out in 90 minutes or less was responsible for those burns. I have no evidence for this, other than that it just isn't reasonable.

Well some of the bodies were found well away from the fire and had marks on them that may have been some kind of burn mark but unlikely to have been caused by that fire.

[sarapuk]

Yes, I get it.

But I also keep in mind that these were not inexperienced people. They were skilled, educated, and experienced at winter hiking. It was known in 1959 that people who were freezing sometimes did weird things, such as take off their clothes in the strange sensation that they were hot, or put their limbs in fires because they had gone numb from cold. I believe they would have avoided these known dangerous behaviors because they knew about them and were conscientious at avoiding them.

Add to that the fact that Krivonischenko bit off his finger, which, to me, says he was in terrible pain, and I believe that was from an unintentional burn on his leg.

Indeed they were experienced fit young people. They fled the tent because they were seriously scared of something of which we are still trying to figure out. They didnt even stop to grab their gear. They ended up at the forest from where most of them met their demise so it appears.

[sarapuk]

While I do realize, that freezing causes pain and loss of sensation and find it plausible, that extreme cases happen rarely, I want to remind you, that we're talking about people living in an area, where it gets really cold in winter and people are used to it. I watched a documentation (completely unrelated by topic) in that a group of people was traveling through Russia in winter. Naked skin showed first signs of freezing after a few minutes. In such an environment I believe people know how to handle cold and injuries caused by it. People know for a long time now, that you treat frozen limbs by heating them very slowly.
I'm not sure, if it's plausible that they had some kind of brain fog because of the cold and hypothermia. I do believe, they the necessity of heating frozen limbs slowly must have been known to them. Keep in mind, that one of the other groups (I believe it was the one they traveled with in the bus for some time) came back with frost bites, so hikers in that area seemed to experience mild injuries by cold on a somewhat regular basis. But that's again no prove, just plausibility. If I can come up with definitive statements, I'll tell you. :)

It seems like too much emphasis is being placed on this fire and burns. The fire or burns did not kill the Dyatlov Group.

[sarapuk]

Citing scientific studies doesn't help much because it doesn't mean the same thing happened with DPI. Each case is individual and cannot be generalized. You can't say, here they stuck their limbs into the fire because it's written somewhere. There an avalanche fell because it's written somewhere. You always have to consider the whole context of the event.

Absolutely. Unfortunately something which some people forget.

[sarapuk]

Citing scientific studies doesn't help much because it doesn't mean the same thing happened with DPI. Each case is individual and cannot be generalized. You can't say, here they stuck their limbs into the fire because it's written somewhere. There an avalanche fell because it's written somewhere. You always have to consider the whole context of the event.

Of course it doesn't mean the same thing happened but we also can't say people don't stick there limbs in a fire and suffer burns when freezing when there's evidence they do. It is not a generalisation to look at the possible reason for the injuries from evidence based research. The thread is titled" medical question" and we are exploring what could cause such injuries.  How else would we discuss the topic?

We have debated that the burns for example came from , ball lighting, an explosion, gases from a rocket , torture from outsiders , the collapse of a tree on the tent when the wood stove was installed to name a few.

There is plenty of generalisation by everyone but I think we are trying to be specific. The logic would be that the people with the burns got them from the fire as they are next to a fire , in and around that fire are items that belong to the group, some that match the items of the two yuris , one being a sock in the fire , the other matching sock is on the hiker. It is not a huge leap of faith to consider that these burns are from the fire .

If we take into consideration medical research from other examples of people dying from the cold,it may give us a picture and a context for the individual events that may have happened.

This is how they wrote the autopsy, with knowledge collated over many years of medical research. how do we consider the whole context of the event?

My context is that 9 humans went hiking in cold weather and they found themselves without the resources they needed to survive. That's the background and setting. That's the context.

We can add , UFO's , yeti, KGB , rockets, secret bases , nuclear secrets and the ghost of evil but there are still the laws of  physical injuries . Any of the above may have been involved but the odds are , perhaps having been chased out and away from the tent , the hikers had to survive. Making a den and a fire is a nod , clue, hint to battling the cold.

Well it might go some way to proving that some of the burns may have been caused by the camp type fire. Obviously such burns didnt kill the group. So maybe this particular avenue as been explored enough ! ?

[Ziljoe]

The definition of high velocity trauma is rapid energy transfer.

You are looking for:
gunshot wounds (no bullet holes)
high-speed motor vehicle accidents (not possible)
falls from significant heights (should be discussed?)
blast injuries
a fallen tree

Taking advantage of AI, I asked what force could do severe, lethal damage to the internal body including broken ribs, but leave the external body unmarked, and after all this time, it said the same thing as the dr from 1959: high velocity trauma such as high-speed motor vehicle accident, or explosion (rapid energy transfer). (It didn't mention a tree falling, but that is too specific and outside the scope of this question for AI. I will ask it next.)

I asked if an explosion could also cause severe burns and it said yes, but not from the explosion itself, rather from hot gases and heat, and that a lot depends on where each individual was located when said explosion occurred.:

How explosions cause burns
The heat of an explosion can create “flash burns,” where exposed skin is burned in a fraction of a second by radiant heat and hot gases.

The Ravine4's internal injuries with no external marks, and Krivonischenko's leg burn, are facts that need to be always taken into account when tracking down the cause of death. To me, these injuries point to only two possibilities: an explosion or a tree falling.

What kind of explosion?
1) It is known that geologists were using explosives.
2) Third-stage rocket that went off course and is leaking.
3) Plasma ball (due to highly charged weather conditions, thundersnow, magnetic anomalies)



​

Interesting. Well its not a bad answer from AI actually. A tree is hardly likely to be travelling fast as a car to cause that type of trauma. Also lets not forget the extraordinary injuries, especially to Dubinina.
Injuries that could not be caused by such a trauma.

A falling tree could cause broken bones and rib fractures. The other injures are from being in water for weeks.

[Ziljoe]

I asked AI and a snow collapse matches quite well. I even put the quote from the autopsy .


Conclusion:

Based on the forensic examination of the body of L. A. Dubinina I think that the death of Dubinina was caused by massive hemorrhage into the right ventricle, multiple bilateral rib fractures, and internal bleeding into the thoracic cavity.

The said damage was probably caused by an impact of great force causing severe closed lethal trauma to the chest of Dubinina. The trauma was caused during life and is the result of high force impact with subsequent fall, throw or bruise to the chest of Dubinina.

Damage to the soft tissue of the head and ‘bath skin’ wrinkling to the extremities are the post-mortem changes (rot and decay) of Dubinina’s body, which was underwater before it was found.

Dubinina died a violent death.

Medical examiner signature (Vozrozhdenniy)

Based on the examination of the body of Zolotaryov, 37 years old, I think that he died due to multiple fractures of the right ribs with internal hemorrhaging to the pleural cavity while at a low temperature. The above mentioned multiple fractures of Zolotaryov’s ribs with hemorrhaging into the pleural cavity were caused in vivo as an effect of a high-power impact to the chest of Zolotaryov at the moment of his fall, squeezing or throwing. The damage of the soft tissue in the area of Mr. Zolotaryov’s head and the presence of bath skin in the area of fingers and upper and lower extremities are postmortem changes in the body of Zolotaryov, which was underwater before it was found.

Zolotaryov died a violent death.

Forensic Medical Examiner - signature (Vozrozhdenniy)




The autopsy reports with the knowledge they had at the time seem to fit with what AI says. Crush injury looks to be consistent and we have a tree and/or 3 meters of snow above the 4 in the ravine with the injuries. It's not just the fractured ribs that fit with a crush but the internal bleeding in the right ventricle thoracic cavity and plural cavity.

AI Overview



+10
A flail chest—where adjacent ribs are fractured in at least two places, causing a segment of the chest wall to move independently (paradoxically)—can occur without visible external marks (bruising or lacerations) due to the nature of the impacting force.
This scenario, known as a "silent" or mark-free flail chest, is usually caused by:
Significant Blunt Force Over a Large Surface Area: A broad, flat object impacting the chest can cause massive internal damage (fracturing ribs in multiple spots) without breaking the skin or causing immediate, visible bruising.
Deceleration Injury (e.g., Seat Belt or Steering Wheel): In high-speed motor vehicle accidents, the body may hit the steering wheel, causing immense pressure. If the energy is distributed across a large area, the skin may remain intact despite fractured, flail ribs underneath.
Rapid Crush Injury: A heavy object landing directly on the chest can crush the ribs, leading to double-fractures and a flail segment. The pressure is blunt and applied instantaneously, which may not cause surface bruising.
Significant Falls (especially in the Elderly): A fall from a height onto a blunt surface (like a railing or edge of a table) can cause such injuries. The elderly are particularly susceptible because osteoporosis makes their bones fragile, allowing a lower-force impact to break ribs in multiple places without severe soft tissue damage.


AI Overview



+13
A collapsed snow hole (snow cave) can cause severe crush injuries due to the high density and weight of compacted snow, leading to life-threatening thoracic trauma such as flail chest. A flail chest occurs when 3 or more consecutive ribs are fractured in 2 or more places, creating a free-floating, unstable segment of the chest wall that moves paradoxically (inward on inspiration, outward on expiration).
Mechanisms and Injuries in Snow Collapse
Crush Mechanism: When a snow structure collapses, it can act similarly to a structural collapse or avalanche, trapping the occupant and applying intense, direct pressure on the chest and abdomen.
Flail Chest Pathophysiology: The intense pressure breaks ribs in multiple locations, causing a portion of the rib cage to separate from the thoracic cavity.
Associated Injuries: Along with flail segments, these injuries are frequently accompanied by severe pulmonary contusions (bruising of the lung), pneumothorax (collapsed lung), or hemothorax (blood in the chest cavity).
Systemic Effects: The compression can lead to hypoxia (low oxygen),, and in cases of prolonged compression, crush syndrome, which can cause muscle damage and kidney failure.

AI Overview


+14
Autopsy findings in fatal flail chest crush injuries, typically resulting from high-energy blunt trauma like vehicular accidents or heavy compression, reveal extensive damage beyond the broken ribs and paradoxical movement. Key, often fatal, findings include severe underlying pulmonary contusion (bruising), hemothorax (blood in the chest cavity), and, frequently, signs of crush asphyxia.
Other common autopsy findings from flail chest crush injuries include:
Internal Intrathoracic Findings
Pulmonary Contusion/Laceration: Nearly universal; involves hemorrhage, edema, and sometimes necrosis of the lung parenchyma, which is often the actual cause of respiratory failure.
Pneumothorax and Hemothorax: Air (pneumothorax) or significant blood (hemothorax) trapped in the pleural cavity, which causes lung collapse.
Cardiac and Great Vessel Injuries: Contusion of the heart muscle, rupture of the aorta, or hemopericardium (blood in the pericardial sac).
Tracheobronchial Injury: Lacerations to the airway, which can lead to air leak and mediastinal emphysema.
Diaphragmatic Rupture: Tears in the diaphragm due to high-pressure abdominal compression.
External and Soft Tissue Findings
Crush Asphyxia (Traumatic Asphyxia): Characterized by intense purple congestion and swelling of the face, neck, and upper chest, caused by increased intrathoracic pressure.
Subconjunctival and Facial Petechiae: Minute red dots (petechial hemorrhages) on the skin of the face, neck, and conjunctivae (eyes), resulting from blood vessel rupture due to pressure.
Seatbelt or Steering Wheel Marks: External bruises or abrasions, which can be clues to the mechanism of high-energy impact.
Subcutaneous Emphysema: Air under the skin, which creates a "crackling" or "crunching" feeling when palpated.
Associated Non-Thoracic Injuries
Solid Organ Damage: Injury to the liver, spleen, or kidneys, often associated with lower rib fractures.
Spinal Injuries: Fractures or dislocations of the thoracic spine, a common result of high-energy trauma.
Rhabdomyolysis: In cases of prolonged crushing, breakdown of muscle tissue may occur, which can be seen as myoglobinuria (myoglobin in urine).

Yes, the combination of injuries described—hemorrhage into the right ventricle, multiple bilateral rib fractures, and internal bleeding into the thoracic cavity (hemothorax)—could be caused by severe crush injuries from a snow cave or ice cave collapse.
These injuries are consistent with high-energy blunt force trauma, which is frequently seen in cases where heavy ice or snow falls onto a person.
Mechanism of Injury in a Collapse
Crush Mechanism: When a snow or ice cave collapses, the victim is subjected to intense, concentrated weight. If this weight lands on the chest, it causes a "crush injury".
Multiple Bilateral Rib Fractures: The severe pressure can break multiple ribs on both sides of the chest, potentially creating a "flail chest," where a segment of the rib cage becomes detached from the rest.
Hemothorax (Internal Bleeding): The fractured ribs can lacerate intercostal blood vessels or the lung tissue, leading to massive bleeding into the thoracic cavity (hemothorax).
Right Ventricle Hemorrhage: The massive, direct impact can compress the heart between the sternum and spine, causing blunt cardiac injury or even perforation of the heart by a broken rib fragment.
Relevance to Snow/Ice Cave Collapses
High Impact Force: Collapsed ice, in particular, is extremely heavy and dense, capable of causing fatal trauma to the chest, head, and bones.
Documented Fatalities: Similar incidents, such as ice cave collapses in Iceland or Washington, have resulted in fatalities with severe crush injuries and broken bones.
Similar to Other Accidents: The trauma is similar in nature to injuries sustained in major motor vehicle collisions, specifically those involving blunt chest trauma.

AI Overview



+14
A massive hemorrhage into the right ventricle combined with flail ribs, often resulting from severe crush injuries such as landslides, constitutes a critical, life-threatening thoracic emergency. It requires immediate, aggressive, and specialized care to manage the unstable chest wall (flail segment) and potential underlying cardiac rupture or contusion.
Key Clinical Aspects
Mechanism of Injury: Landslide crush injuries involve immense blunt force, causing multiple rib fractures (3+ ribs in 2+ places) and severe chest wall destabilization, known as flail chest.
Pathophysiology:
Flail Chest: The damaged chest wall moves paradoxically (inward on inspiration, outward on expiration), which severely restricts breathing and causes acute respiratory distress.
Right Ventricular (RV) Hemorrhage: The direct crushing force can cause cardiac contusion or rupture. Because the right ventricle is positioned directly behind the sternum, it is highly susceptible to blunt trauma.
Complications: These injuries are often accompanied by significant haemothorax (blood in the chest cavity), pneumothorax (collapsed lung), and severe lung contusion.


The cedar branches were definitely used for a fire . A lot of melted snow was found around the fire when the snow had melted, some of the branches were under one of the Yruis about the same diameter as the fire and they were broken in several places. There were also branches that were broken left hanging on lower branches . The fire was estimated to have burned for an 1.5 hours. Burns were found on the socks and clothing of a number of the hikers , they are mostly superficial and localised . They are consistent with people trying to warm their limbs , especially when feeling has gone. A wool sock was found in the fire along with a number of items of clothing , one being a handkerchief and a hat/balaclava. The sock matched the other one on Yuri's body that he was wearing.

I would suspect that the majority of burns to the flesh and clothing were done at the fire around the cedar.

Well all that proves is that AI is not all its made out to be. Its a slightly improved version of Google search. Long way to go before its significant. And the injuries to Dubinina are the most interesting. Not all could have been caused by trauma and the rotting theory doesnt stand up to scrutiny which I have done years ago.
 

Sarapuk, you just complimented AI in the other post and fail to understand the AI response in my post. Is response is a number of evidence based scientific papers on injury. It's not Google or AI opinion .

Please post or link your reason for why rotting doesn't stand up to your scrutiny?.

[Ziljoe]

Thanks, Ziljoe, this will take me awhile to read through so I will respond after.

I don't think the sad little fire that burned out in 90 minutes or less was responsible for those burns. I have no evidence for this, other than that it just isn't reasonable.

Well some of the bodies were found well away from the fire and had marks on them that may have been some kind of burn mark but unlikely to have been caused by that fire.

Why would it be unlikely to be caused by that fire?

[Ziljoe]

While I do realize, that freezing causes pain and loss of sensation and find it plausible, that extreme cases happen rarely, I want to remind you, that we're talking about people living in an area, where it gets really cold in winter and people are used to it. I watched a documentation (completely unrelated by topic) in that a group of people was traveling through Russia in winter. Naked skin showed first signs of freezing after a few minutes. In such an environment I believe people know how to handle cold and injuries caused by it. People know for a long time now, that you treat frozen limbs by heating them very slowly.
I'm not sure, if it's plausible that they had some kind of brain fog because of the cold and hypothermia. I do believe, they the necessity of heating frozen limbs slowly must have been known to them. Keep in mind, that one of the other groups (I believe it was the one they traveled with in the bus for some time) came back with frost bites, so hikers in that area seemed to experience mild injuries by cold on a somewhat regular basis. But that's again no prove, just plausibility. If I can come up with definitive statements, I'll tell you. :)

It seems like too much emphasis is being placed on this fire and burns. The fire or burns did not kill the Dyatlov Group.

Sarapuk please read the full thread.

[Ziljoe]

Citing scientific studies doesn't help much because it doesn't mean the same thing happened with DPI. Each case is individual and cannot be generalized. You can't say, here they stuck their limbs into the fire because it's written somewhere. There an avalanche fell because it's written somewhere. You always have to consider the whole context of the event.

Absolutely. Unfortunately something which some people forget.

It's all we have got .

[Ziljoe]

Citing scientific studies doesn't help much because it doesn't mean the same thing happened with DPI. Each case is individual and cannot be generalized. You can't say, here they stuck their limbs into the fire because it's written somewhere. There an avalanche fell because it's written somewhere. You always have to consider the whole context of the event.

Of course it doesn't mean the same thing happened but we also can't say people don't stick there limbs in a fire and suffer burns when freezing when there's evidence they do. It is not a generalisation to look at the possible reason for the injuries from evidence based research. The thread is titled" medical question" and we are exploring what could cause such injuries.  How else would we discuss the topic?

We have debated that the burns for example came from , ball lighting, an explosion, gases from a rocket , torture from outsiders , the collapse of a tree on the tent when the wood stove was installed to name a few.

There is plenty of generalisation by everyone but I think we are trying to be specific. The logic would be that the people with the burns got them from the fire as they are next to a fire , in and around that fire are items that belong to the group, some that match the items of the two yuris , one being a sock in the fire , the other matching sock is on the hiker. It is not a huge leap of faith to consider that these burns are from the fire .

If we take into consideration medical research from other examples of people dying from the cold,it may give us a picture and a context for the individual events that may have happened.

This is how they wrote the autopsy, with knowledge collated over many years of medical research. how do we consider the whole context of the event?

My context is that 9 humans went hiking in cold weather and they found themselves without the resources they needed to survive. That's the background and setting. That's the context.

We can add , UFO's , yeti, KGB , rockets, secret bases , nuclear secrets and the ghost of evil but there are still the laws of  physical injuries . Any of the above may have been involved but the odds are , perhaps having been chased out and away from the tent , the hikers had to survive. Making a den and a fire is a nod , clue, hint to battling the cold.

Well it might go some way to proving that some of the burns may have been caused by the camp type fire. Obviously such burns didnt kill the group. So maybe this particular avenue as been explored enough ! ?

If we can make a model that fits with the burns we can work on other areas. We can't state that they never received the burns from the camp dire as it's not possible.Start your own avenue of discussion if you don't like this one perhaps?.

[Missi]

While I do realize, that freezing causes pain and loss of sensation and find it plausible, that extreme cases happen rarely, I want to remind you, that we're talking about people living in an area, where it gets really cold in winter and people are used to it. I watched a documentation (completely unrelated by topic) in that a group of people was traveling through Russia in winter. Naked skin showed first signs of freezing after a few minutes. In such an environment I believe people know how to handle cold and injuries caused by it. People know for a long time now, that you treat frozen limbs by heating them very slowly.
I'm not sure, if it's plausible that they had some kind of brain fog because of the cold and hypothermia. I do believe, they the necessity of heating frozen limbs slowly must have been known to them. Keep in mind, that one of the other groups (I believe it was the one they traveled with in the bus for some time) came back with frost bites, so hikers in that area seemed to experience mild injuries by cold on a somewhat regular basis. But that's again no prove, just plausibility. If I can come up with definitive statements, I'll tell you. :)

It seems like too much emphasis is being placed on this fire and burns. The fire or burns did not kill the Dyatlov Group.

I'm totally with you on the fact, that the burns didn't kill them. Yet they did happen and a theory that explains what happened that night needs to also explain how and why those burn marks happened. That's why I tend to come back to those minor facts once and again, not to make them big, but to verify if a theory holds up in its entirety.

[Missi]

The definition of high velocity trauma is rapid energy transfer.

You are looking for:
gunshot wounds (no bullet holes)
high-speed motor vehicle accidents (not possible)
falls from significant heights (should be discussed?)
blast injuries
a fallen tree

Taking advantage of AI, I asked what force could do severe, lethal damage to the internal body including broken ribs, but leave the external body unmarked, and after all this time, it said the same thing as the dr from 1959: high velocity trauma such as high-speed motor vehicle accident, or explosion (rapid energy transfer). (It didn't mention a tree falling, but that is too specific and outside the scope of this question for AI. I will ask it next.)

I asked if an explosion could also cause severe burns and it said yes, but not from the explosion itself, rather from hot gases and heat, and that a lot depends on where each individual was located when said explosion occurred.:

How explosions cause burns
The heat of an explosion can create “flash burns,” where exposed skin is burned in a fraction of a second by radiant heat and hot gases.

The Ravine4's internal injuries with no external marks, and Krivonischenko's leg burn, are facts that need to be always taken into account when tracking down the cause of death. To me, these injuries point to only two possibilities: an explosion or a tree falling.

What kind of explosion?
1) It is known that geologists were using explosives.
2) Third-stage rocket that went off course and is leaking.
3) Plasma ball (due to highly charged weather conditions, thundersnow, magnetic anomalies)



​

Interesting. Well its not a bad answer from AI actually. A tree is hardly likely to be travelling fast as a car to cause that type of trauma. Also lets not forget the extraordinary injuries, especially to Dubinina.
Injuries that could not be caused by such a trauma.

A tree "travels" at different speeds depending on the height you look at. The crown of the tree reaches a far higher velocity at impact than the trunk. But, and that's the actual part of what I want to say, Teddy provided examples of similar injuries caused by falling trees. That doesn't include those injuries that most probably occurred post mortem because of lying in the snow, in the thawing snow and in flowing water for weeks, maybe also by bacteria, microorganisms and the like.

[Marc]

Focusing too much on the nature of each minor injury unnecessarily complicates an already complex incident. Many of the minor injuries can simply be explained by a desperate attempt to survive a cold February night (knuckles, burn marks, etc.).

The nature of the more complex and significant injuries (broken ribs, skull fractures) is a more important signal.

We have a dominant narrative (justified, of course) - some of these injuries can only be caused by an explosion or a blow with an inhumanly strong blunt object.
But how confident are the experts in this statement? Is this the most likely estimate or an indisputable fact?
Is there a possibility that a person hitting with full force (using an iron bar, a heavy wooden plank, etc.) could still do something similar?
Expert opinion should always be preferred to personal fantasy or gut feeling, but this dominant narrative has always raised doubts in me.

[Missi]

Don't forget the snow, please. In itself, the injuries of the ravine 4 could be obtained by snow, collapsing on top of the hikers.
Well, or maybe a tree falling, as is plausible by the evidence Teddy provided.

And still, whatever theory you decide to follow through with, it must as well give a possible explanation for all the small injuries and mysteries. That might be one within the context of surviving the night. But if it fails to provide any, it's not feasible.